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Re: The Pointsfix and the Game Listings [message #406128 is a reply to message #406077] Thu, 08 October 2009 02:52 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Spoony is currently offline  Spoony
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Roni wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 20:46


Quote:

You're saying he keeps his own internal community happy. Great. I'm happy for you. Back to the original question. Why does he need all the a00 names again?


Why doesn't he? He registered them and you are saying he can't use them? There is no logic there. He can do whatever he wants with them. It's up to owner of the nicks to do what he wants to. Is this so difficult to grasp?

So what's your opinion of the guy who took all the Renegade serials, meaning if you wanted to start a new server, you needed his permission?

They're his, right? He snapped them up, he can do whatever he wants with them.

Also, this argument only works if you say that an a00 name is worth no more than any other XWIS name (like gr8mofo1). If it's worth more, jelly doesn't deserve to monopolise them all; if it's not worth more, why the fanatical resistance to compromise?

Roni wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 20:46

Roni wrote

You say the communities are upset at his monopoly of the A00 names? Please name those communities? The only threads about people not liking this to my knowledge, are the ones you have personally started.

See above.

Still not seeing it?

see above re: this isn't the first time it's been brought up, not by a long shot. at one point i actually decided to act as a neutral mediator between my friend jelly and his critics, and that was before the pointsfix even existed, which completely discredits anyone who says "you're only doing this because we took the pointsfix off jelly"

Roni wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 20:46

Quote:

For starters, they'd have laughed at the idea that 100 is a majority. Secondly, it would have been a simple matter to simply point out to EA the way the people on the anti-pointsfix side were actually behaving. No, roni. We made the pointsfix optional because we chose to. We didn't do it because we thought we had to. We were simply "being the better man". We suggested several compromises, all of which you violently rejected, and we just thought: fuck it, keep your stupid bugged flawed system for all we care. Of course that wasn't enough for the anti-pointsfix crowd (as I predicted it wouldn't be) - they also said I should not be able to choose to use the pointsfix in my own community (if you remember, you supported the saboteurs who subverted the admin's decisions through a campaign of lies, manipulation and rigged polls, instead of supporting the league owner's right to decide how to run his own league)


Spoony I rarely use this term but for you on this response it is quite necessary. You are blatently lying now. Yes, I used your term. You are outright lying. When the initial TT patch was proposed, it was proposed as having the point fix mandatory or it was perceived as being mandatory part of the patch. I did not like that part of the patch and asked that it be optional on the patch to have the point fix.

I never censored you on my forums or deleted your posts when you responded. I let you have free speech and let you paint the picture you wanted. I simply responded with I do not like the point fix but everything else I liked about the patch. Everyone that has read about the patch has agreed it would truly improve the gameplay except alot of people did not like the point fix. I left it up to my community to decide if they wanted it or not. I let you post and respond but the majority of the members did not like the pointfix part of the patch.

this is more or less true (except for an error of omission when you say "I simply responded with I do not like the point fix but everything else I liked about the patch.". you leave out the fact you flamed the living shit out of me when i was going out of my way to try to engage you in debate, and you kept calling me a liar for no reason whatsoever, and you lied to the community several times (for example, when you said the pointsfix was "bugged", which i challenged you to justify, and you couldn't), but it doesn't disprove anything i said.

Roni wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 20:46

When TT officially came out and stated there was going to be a server side option then everything was dropped.

uh no, the despicable way i've been treated by opponents of the pointsfix carried on... if anything it intensified.

Roni wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 20:46

How did I not agree with you having it as an option on your server? You truly can't be serious? As a server owner how could I want to have the choice to have it or not on my server and you not have the same option? Just because I did not want it on my server didn't mean you could not choose to have it on yours. I simply told you that you should listen to the majority of clan players on what they wanted and never did I say you could not have the option to have it. You are just lying about this.

i've explained this again and again and again.

people say: TT should make the pointsfix optional. a community should be able to decide, in its own manner, whether or not to use the pointsfix.
ok, fine. i agree with this. TT agrees with this. we will make it so. (there is a problem with this, namely the most vehement opponents of the pointsfix have an unwarranted, unchallengeable chokehold on the game listings which prevents any new server from having a chance. this is ten times more "dictatorial" than anything you can say about me or TT)

now let's think about what this decision will mean.

it means n00bstories can decide whether to use pointsfix. it doesn't matter to me whether that decision is made by a vote, or by discussion among their admins, or by crimson flipping a coin. that's none of my business, or yours. n00bstories can make this decision in its own way.
jelly-servers can make that decision in their own way. exodus can make that decision in their own way. etc etc etc.
can you see where i'm going with this? clanwars.cc can make that decision in its own way. its own way is by the decisions of the league owner and the duly appointed admins. it is not decided by "the people" (it seems very fashionable to call this "democracy", but it's actually much more like communism). now, i was a dictator at clanwars, but a very reasonable and approachable dictator (and unlike most other renegade dictators i at least was honest about it). whenever i made decisions in the clanwars league, i ALWAYS kept the floor open for debate. i would ALWAYS give people a chance to tell me why the decision was wrong, and if you successfully argued that it was, it would get changed. BUT, you have to successfully argue it. "we don't like it" IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH. the majority didn't want to switch to manual. i was right, they were all wrong, and if the majority was listened to the league would've completely died, for good, in november 2005. the majority thought soul shouldn't be banned when he was caught pointpushing (again) and photoshopping ss's. i was right, they were all wrong, and the situation was considered so embarrassing (i.e. the community all supporting a convicted pointpusher and flaming the person who caught him) to clanwars.cc that there was serious talk of closing the league altogether.
so sure, my word was final, but i could always, ALWAYS be reasoned with, and i always gave the CW community the chance to try.
the only way to change my mind on CW policy is by the utmost reasonableness. not by bullying, not by threats, not by lying to make me look bad, and not by polls, even if they're done fairly (and they weren't, the anti-pointsfix crowd has been caught rigging them several times)
here's what people don't understand. if you tried to reason against me and failed, the failure is on YOUR part, not mine. it's not a case of "spoony doesnt listen to you", it's a case of "you're wrong so it would be a fucking bad idea to do what you say, because this is important". the funny thing is i actually get criticised for going to such great lengths to engage you in debates and for winning so many of them... it's hard to imagine anything sillier than that. i guess you'd rather i didn't explain my decisions at all?

so spoony says: ok, i DO want to use the pointsfix in my clanwars league.
when this happened, the anti-pointsfix crowd was given every opportunity to debate the subject logically. they tried and catastrophically failed. every single thing they said was proven wrong. they continually refused to acknowledge this, and refused to even read most of what i said. (for example, i had to repeat my post about the vehicle-alignment modification TWELVE TIMES before simpee even read it...)
so, the anti-pointsfix crowd failed completely. what to do then? they resorted to a campaign of lies, manipulation, rigging polls and lying about the results, and character assassination against me (like clearshot and simpee did in the thread on jelly).
now, roni, who do you support here?
A. the rightful owner and admin of the league deciding what's best for the league he's in charge of
B. a group of cheaters and rulebreakers subverting the admin's decisions by a campaign of lies and manipulation

plenty of people have supported B. i cannot name a single person on any forum who has ever supported A. if anybody does, i would appreciate them saying so. you specifically went out of your way to support the Bs.
if you support B, well, that's your opinion. but don't say you agree with each community's right to choose whether to use the pointsfix, BECAUSE YOU DON'T. here's an example of a community deciding to use the pointsfix, and instead of supporting that, YOU SUPPORTED THE PEOPLE WHO SABOTAGED IT. if anybody's still confused, it DOESN'T MATTER whether you like the pointsfix or not. that is not the issue at all. we're talking about a community having the right to decide for itself whether to use the pointsfix, without that right being forcibly interfered with. and in the clanwars case, everybody supports the people forcibly interfering with it. this would be funny if it wasn't so sad.
for anybody who says they support the idea of each community having a choice to use the pointsfix or not: when you look at the clanwars situation, you MUST support me all the way. you MUST tell retards like simpee to STOP RIGHT THERE. you MUST tell them: "if you want to play clan games with the pointsbug, fuck off and host your own league".
maybe the idea of TT deciding on the pointsfix in your own private community frightens you. ok. but when you see people like simpee deciding what's best for someone's private league, that ought to TERRIFY you. same situation, only instead of the interference coming from TT, the group EA have chosen to officially patch the game, the interference is coming from a bunch of cheaters and pointpushers.
if you are angry at me for "trying to force the pointsfix on my server (even though that isn't true), then when you see what simpee and his like did at clanwars, it ought to fucking OUTRAGE you. but it doesn't, indeed it doesn't bother anybody in the slightest AND they go out of their way to criticise the person who is actually the victim of this behaviour, and that's what makes me doubt so many people's sincerity.

"TT wants to force the pointsfix onto my community? THATS AN OUTRAGE!"
spoony: "actually no we're not. by the way, some cheaters are trying to force the pointsbug onto MY community"
"WELL GIVE THEM WHAT THEY WANT THEN!"
^^ it boggles the mind, it really does.

nobody says a single bad word about what the likes of simpee did at clanwars. some people even try to use it as an argument against the pointsfix and against me. what the hell? do people simply not realise how much damage they're doing to their own credibility, or are they just masochists who ENJOY utterly humiliating themselves?

Roni wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 20:46

Roni wrote

Firstly, you're still under the impression that I only want a server up there with the pointsfix. Well, of course you are... jelly lied to you and you believed him. No. If you actually read what I said, you'll see I'm criticising the fact he has a monopoly on the advanced game listings, NOT saying "but i want an a00 name and then I'll be happy"

Secondly, it is in my mind to ask you how you would react if, when you said the pointsfix should be optional, TT said "what's it worth to you?"

First you are being childish now. I have never spoken to Jelly on the matter. What is your problem with him? He has never lied to me on anything. You are raging now and it is quite obvious you need to take some time to reflect on what you are writing.

No, it's quite obvious you need to read the thread.

Roni wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 20:46

Second. What kind of scenario are you talking about? You clearly can't be serious? TT is updating a patch for ren that the majority of players should want and not be forced upon. They listened to the majority and made it server side option for the pointsfix.

I simply offered up my A00 nick for sale if you wanted to have a server on the top of the listings. What is wrong with that?

It wasn't even what I was asking for, but that's besides the point anyway.

Roni wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 20:46

Quote:

Bit of a self-defeating argument here, because you did just lie.
"Please read your responses when someone disagrees with you and they always start with someone is lying and you are always right."
Utterly untrue. Go check the "thoughts on the ladder" thread. I give you hockey6v2 or w.e his name is. my responses to him are polite and civilised. i don't flame him, i just respond to what he says about the pointsfix.

so why's he the odd one out? go on, guess. if you can't, i'll tell you.


Utterly untrue. Go and check the majority of responses from everyone who disagrees with you.

If you did, you'll see me acting with a degree of civility and reasonableness that is several orders of magnitude higher than my opposition. You're also trying to pull a simpee here: "everything you say is 'person X is lying'". No, not everything, but when people do lie (and the anti-pointsfix crowd is MULTIPLY convicted) I point it out. tell me, if a moderator were to catch a bunch of cheaters, who's the bad guy? seems to me you think it's the moderator.

Roni wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 20:46

Quote:

You don't agree with me criticising Jelly's monopoly on the game listings?

You'd do something different?

OK. You disagreed with the perceived notion that I wanted to force the pointsfix onto all servers (untrue, but never mind that for now). What did you do? Make a petition aim it at EA. You didn't aim it at TT or me... you aimed it at EA.

I, on the other hand, have actually tried talking about this with Jelly. I only mentioned the possibility of going over his head (as you thought to do with the pointsfix) AFTER he told me to fuck off.


Firstly, I dont agree with you opinion on Jelly's monopoly. No I don't.

That is not what I asked. I didn't ask you whether you agreed with what I was saying. I asked you whether you agreed that I am entitled to say it. Most of the Jelly community, including Jelly himself, seem to be outraged at me simply for mentioning it at all.

Roni wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 20:46

Second, I started the petition when it seemed that it(pointsfix) would not be server side optional. Go back on read when the petition was started and look at the options we had then. There was not mention of a server side option until after the masses started to uprise against the pointsfix. You need to be honest here. At the time of the petition you (alleged spokesmen for TT) would not listen to what the people were saying.

After that last sentence, don't you dare tell me I'm the one who needs to be honest. I wouldn't listen to what people were saying? I went to INCREDIBLE lengths to listen to what they were saying, even though all most of them did was just throw bullshit flames at me.

Roni wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 20:46

You only wanted to try to debunk what their opinions

another lie. this is yet another example of someone who doesn't know the difference between an opinion and a fact.

you can't disprove an opinion and i never said you could. but that isn't the point. plenty of people on the anti-pointsfix crowd tried throwing FACTS out there, the vast majority of which turned out to be wrong, easily disproven.

when i'm basing my opinions on a misapprehension i'm generally grateful if someone points it out to me... seems like everyone else straps on the suicide belt.

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[Updated on: Thu, 08 October 2009 03:01]

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