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Re: The Pointsfix and the Game Listings [message #406363 is a reply to message #406319] Fri, 09 October 2009 14:42 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
papaelbo is currently offline  papaelbo
Messages: 46
Registered: October 2007
Location: In ur sewer......
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Once more...with feeling, eh...?

Well, I am getting tired of this to be honest. I think this will be my last post unless of course something completely outrageous gets put on here.

I think keeping track of everything and sitting around for an hour or two reading, editing, linking and responding to each point is a waste of time when the TT patch will negate this entire issue.

Well, here we go. MAMMOTH TANK SIZED POST INC.....

Spoony wrote on Fri, 09 October 2009 10:05

You can tell a sentence is gonna be bullshit when this is how it starts.

Or, i could have just been tired at 4am and that is why the response didnt match the quote. Again you have invented a fiction in your head just to make me look stupid and posted that instead of responding to what i actually wrote.

Spoony wrote on Fri, 09 October 2009 10:05

PapaElbo wrote on Fri, 09 October 2009 09:40

keep referring to random incidents that happened years ago, linking seemingly unrelated issues and drawing your own conclusions

Specifically?

Why should i have to go back and pull specific quotes out? I dont keep copies of everthing or links to specific posts. If anyone is even still bothered with reading this thread then they will know what i am referring to. I certainly shouldnt have to point it out to you Spoony.

Random incidents - your clanwars baggage, mgstpain, your assertion that the jelly community are all bullies.

Seemingly unrelated issues - clanwars, TT patches, the pointsfix, pure servers, your new ladder vs the Jelly Community and Jelly's A00 nicks.

Drawing your own conclusions - see your original post for that one. It is not an objective assessment of the situation, it is a diatribe of false invention, one sided opinionation and conclusions based upon fiction stated as fact. If you want to do it right, then get someone who is independant, get them to post the problem (if there even is one) without prejudice or favor and then discuss it properly - preferably in private with the other server owners but certainly in public if that is the preference.

Spoony wrote on Fri, 09 October 2009 10:05

PapaElbo wrote on Fri, 09 October 2009 09:40

drawing your own conclusions which attack the good standing and character of the community which i am a part of.

Specifically?


Again, see your first post and others in just this thread alone for more than enough of this. You really dont need to play dumb here.

Spoony wrote on Fri, 09 October 2009 10:05

Besides, plenty of the Jelly community do this to me all the time, they've done it several times in this thread, and they usually get caught lying in the attempt. You don't seem to mind that.

So its an eye for an eye then Spoony? Nice responsible and mature attitude. Plus a little invention again. How do you know what i mind or dont mind. I see people (mostly clanwars people) who post about the pointsfix and get into heated discussions with you. I enjoyed reading your debates but to be honest, I think you are at fault when things get out of hand just as much as they are.

Spoony wrote on Fri, 09 October 2009 10:05

PapaElbo wrote on Fri, 09 October 2009 09:40

Spoony wrote on Fri, 09 October 2009 15:50


you say: but it's justified.

I said you bring it on yourself becasue you know the attitudes of most people at Jelly. I didnt say it was justified. This is another problem of yours Spoony. You twist words and invent these stories and present them as fact. Then use them over and over.

Oh, so you admit it's NOT justified then?


Oh, so you admit you DO jump to conclusions then?

Let me go through it again. I said you bring it on yourself becasue you know the attitudes of most people at Jelly. You are intelligent enough to know what response you will receive whether it is on the pointsfix, about clanwar issues or just general chat or catching cheats. I didnt say it was justified. I also didnt say it was unjustified.

You provoke people to be extreme in their opinions (probably deliberately) becasue if they were not 100% absolutely sure, you would pick them apart. So, i believe, you reap what you sow. That is all.

Spoony wrote on Fri, 09 October 2009 10:05

PapaElbo wrote on Fri, 09 October 2009 09:40

Spoony wrote on Fri, 09 October 2009 15:50

well, neither of these actually puts me at fault.

Of course! You are never at fault.

What an absurdly hypocritical contradiction.

Ha ha! In my head you sounded like Niles Crane from Fraser! In any case, likewise. Nice dodge.

Spoony wrote on Fri, 09 October 2009 10:05

You give two reasons why I should be treated with contempt by the Jelly community - I point out that neither of these actually constitutes me doing something wrong, and your reply is "OH YEAH YOUR NEVER WRONG ARE YOU?!?"

Speak for yourself.

I did not give any reasons to justify why you should be treated with contempt. Keep making it up. As stated above, you reap what you sow. I am just here responding to what i see. I have no malice towards you, TT or the community so please dont put words in my mouth. If you come to a community and start a thread about something you know will cause problems then you are deliberately asking for trouble and therefore, you are by definition a disruptive influence to that community.

Spoony wrote on Fri, 09 October 2009 10:05

PapaElbo wrote on Fri, 09 October 2009 09:40

I barely know Clearshot and have never been part of a clan but i still know about this drama becasue you repeat it ad'nauseam every chance you get.

Ah, so the problem ISN'T that a jelly moderator lied to the community again and again and again to make me look bad, and the rest of the community let him get away with it (in some cases actually lying to help him get away with it)... the problem is I caught him redhanded and pointing out how utterly pathetic it was?

No, stop making it up please.

The problem is you keep going on about it. I have no idea why mgstpain decided to cheat. From my experience, he was hardly ever online and nobody could ever tell me much about him. Not that i made many enquries. He was one of those random mods who was never there and so when he was, I never talked to him.

Spoony wrote on Fri, 09 October 2009 10:05

PapaElbo wrote on Fri, 09 October 2009 09:40

Who is treating you with contempt and why is the level astonishing?

Are you blind?

No. Do you tend to over-exaggerate? Quite possibly! Also, please keep this greivance in perspective. When you say "the Jelly Community" you probably mean the handful of clanwars players who frequent the jelly servers. Not the ENTIRE community.

I see various people coming in here and trying to respond to your claims regarding the Jelly community. If you feel like you are being treated with contempt then i would refer you to the second part of the above quote. Why would this be astonishing considering the magnitude of what you are proposing to do to us?

Spoony wrote on Fri, 09 October 2009 10:05

PapaElbo wrote on Fri, 09 October 2009 09:40

What you are saying here when you break it all down is that you would rather the Jelly community flame and show astonishing levels of contempt to mgstpain. I suppose we all love a good roasting, as long as we are not the ones taking it.

No, I didn't say I would particularly enjoy a lynch-mob aimed at msgtpain.

I said I'm rather surprised at the Jelly community's apparently total indifference to a moderator cheating while being a moderator, and continually lying to everyone to cover himself while doing so. But when they see someone with different opinions on the pointsfix, or someone daring to speak out about their control of the gamelistings, grab a stick and get in line, eh?


So, you are surprised at the lack of a lynch-mob aimed at msgtpain? Nice mature and responsible attitude.

Isnt that what cheaters do? Continually lie to cover themselves and abuse the trust of others to get away with it? For a mod to do this, is unforgivable but in the end, its just another level of trust that has been abused. Yes it makes a difference that he was a mod but to be honest, i rarely saw the guy in game and didnt even know him that well. Didnt he leave the game for a while? I never saw him around for a very long time. Then one day someone turns up on a smurf nick out of the blue on J-Marathon who is clearly hacking and within a week or two, he is banned. When i heard it was mgstpain, yes i was shocked and dissapointed. But, now when i look at him, he is just another douchebag who got caught and banned.

I dont even think most of the current regulars at Jelly even knew who he was. Obviously the older players did but thats besides the point. You cant compare a reaction to say a mod who was caught cheating to a mod who has just advocated the forced removal of our server's nicks for the benefit of this mods "other" community of which he is also a senior member.

I became aware of you Spoony when i first came to Jelly and admired your level of commitment to the job and how you would calmly and objectively put your point across in each case. But, lately you have been losing it and in this thread particularly your calm objective attitude has gone completely out the window with the first post. And here you are, stabbing our community in the back - and for what? There may be reasons for this that i am not aware of (which is fine, i dont need to know). I just think if you had been more objective and had not made up your own conclusions in your original post, then we wouldnt be here 13 pages later talking more about you rather than your issues.

Spoony wrote on Fri, 09 October 2009 10:05

PapaElbo wrote on Fri, 09 October 2009 09:40

Spoony wrote on Fri, 09 October 2009 15:50


clearly nobody can grasp the solid fact that if you wanna use the pointsfix in your own community, i don't care. really, i don't.

I think everyone has got it by now.

That's not the impression I get.


Well, it is the impression i get. Its not really that hard to understand. The pointsfix will be optional server side and the ladder will apply a rating to a server based on its differential to basic pure Renegade. Simple. Very Happy

Spoony wrote on Fri, 09 October 2009 10:05

PapaElbo wrote on Fri, 09 October 2009 09:40

Spoony wrote on Fri, 09 October 2009 15:50

but many people in the jelly community have proven they DON'T want me to choose to use the pointsfix in mine.

I dont think i have seen anyone trying to stop you using the pointsfix in your server. Unless you mean clanwars again and in which case, that was a community decision.

Read what I said to Roni. He couldn't think of a response and was too humiliated to try... see if you can do better.


I have no clue what you mean by this? Is it this?

Spoony wrote on Fri, 08 October 2009 23:12

Has it ever occurred to you that there isn't actually anything wrong with me disagreeing with you on something?


Under normal circumstances, there wouldnt be anything wrong with you disagreeing with me or anyone else for that matter. But these are not normal circumstances. You posted a clearly biased tirade which lead to a threat to remove the server nicks from Jelly. If we consider your position within TT and the fact it is TT that controls XWIS then i would say there is a pretty good chance of this happening. And in my opinion, it would be very unfair if it did happen.

Spoony wrote on Fri, 09 October 2009 10:05

I personally couldn't care less about how Jelly servers are run

Untrue. Jelly is supposedly irresponsible with their servers and their "monopoly" must be halted!! No?

Spoony wrote on Fri, 09 October 2009 10:05

or even how the forums were run (it really doesn't bother me that the community's full of bullies who treat people like shit when you've done nothing wrong to them).

Untrue. Gross exaggeration. One or two idiots does not consitute a community of bullies.

Spoony wrote on Fri, 09 October 2009 10:05

I only care about their strangehold on the game listings and their fanatical inability to even maturely debate the issue at all.

I think everyone has a fanatical inability to debate with you Spoony. Did i not try to maturely debate with you?

Spoony wrote on Fri, 09 October 2009 10:05

Still...
"I only care about your threats to steal Jelly's server nicks for your own purposes"
Untrue.

How so? Please enlighten me on what i care about.

Spoony wrote on Fri, 09 October 2009 10:05

"and the bad mouthing of my community on these forums"
Not only untrue but grossly hypocritical.

How so? Please enlighten me on what i care about.

Spoony wrote on Fri, 09 October 2009 10:05

PapaElbo wrote on Fri, 09 October 2009 09:40

How about.....there is no crime that Jelly has to answer for.

I didn't suggest that there was. I was criticising all the power his community has and suggested it would be better in more responsible hands. That's all. They've tried to sidestep this completely legitimate opinion in essentially two ways:
1. "you should have talked about this privately"
2. "you're only doing this because we took the pointsfix off"


Er....so the Jelly Community has done nothing wrong. The Jelly Community, in your view, holds too much "power". They have committed no crime to justify your criticism of this "power". You just think that this "power" would be better of in the hands of the group you represent. TT.

I dont know. I dont think you have a leg to stand on. The server nicks were farily obtained through the established procedure of the time. The "power" of the Jelly community was earned through trust, gamesmanship, professionalism and respect for other communities over 4 years.

You have a problem with a small number of the community - mostly clanwars or anti pointsfix people who you provoke specifically to create disruption within the community. That is neither responsible nor mature.

You also forgot:

3. you could be doing this because you want to promote your own style of gameplay, have your own servers with the pointsfix at the top of the listings.
4. you could be doing this becasue you are pissed at Jelly or the community at large and want some kind of revenge.
5. you could be doing this becasue you want TT to have a more visible role in the community considering the lack of updates over the last two years.

Spoony wrote on Fri, 09 October 2009 10:05

PapaElbo wrote on Fri, 09 October 2009 09:40

And, there is no established authority for Jelly to answer to.

There's TT... but more to the point, there's the community.

TT considers itself answerable to the community. We proved that with the pointsfix. Jelly has made no secret at all of the fact they DON'T consider themselves answerable to the community.

Well, maybe because Jelly are a member OF the community so with your logic, TT should be answerable to Jelly. No?

If Jelly were answerable to all the other communities, how would that work? What would Jelly be answering to? TT is an organisation in charge of XWIS, the TT patch and the community forums and probably a ton of other stuff i have no idea about. Since TT is a merger of several teams, projects and companies then sure, ill accept TT as the impartial community leader. The second they start up their own servers, then they become competitors and therefore no longer impartial.

Spoony wrote on Fri, 09 October 2009 10:05

Precisely because we're better than the Jelly community.

Opinion is not fact and "better" is a subjective term. Better how?

Spoony wrote on Fri, 09 October 2009 10:05

I, personally, am quite satisfied with this thread's outcome. If anybody was in any doubt that the Jelly community is completely unqualified to manage this responsibility, they only need to look at this thread. They can then look at TT's track record, which is far superior in every conceivable sense.

You say I'm attacking jelly here? Don't need to, it's done a very good job of attacking itself.


Oh, this arrogance is really annoying me. You claimed responsibility over something that required none for your own personal gain. You stired up tensions in the Jelly Community right before coming here, possibly deliberately. You have repeatedly stated opinions as facts. You have proven nothing except how we can expect TT to deal with the community in future.

I thought better of you Spoony. I am dissapointed.


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