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Conversation with an Atheist [message #215358 is a reply to message #215250]

Sat, 26 August 2006 13:07

Hydra
Messages: 827
Registered: September 2003
Location: Atlanta, GA

Karma:

Colonel

(Revised and updated from its last posting; if you notice any inconsistencies and blatant fallacies, let me know.)

"Atheist in quotes."
*Theist in asteriks.*

"God doesn't exist; God is just some fairytale people made up to give purpose to their meaningless lives. It's easy for people to attribute to 'God' that which they cannot explain. I absolutely KNOW there is no God and believe strictly in science and logic."
*Sure God exists. How else did we get here, completely unorganized randomness? You call THAT science?*

"Well, it all started with the Big Bang…."
*What initiated the Big Bang? What even originated the matter that supposedly exploded in the Big Bang?*

"It was the result of a long chain of nuclear and chemical reactions among all the concentrated matter."
*Still doesn't answer my question as to what originated that matter or what caused those chemical reactions in the first place.*

"Why does it have to be created? Like your God, why couldn't it just always have existed without any initial creation?"
*Because everything finite, unlike an omnipotent deity, must have a beginning and something that caused it into being. Something outside the realm of our universe must have created it because it couldn't just create itself.*

"Sure it could. In fact, when you think about it, matter is hardly finite at all, anyway, since it only changes from one form to another. It has simply always existed."
*Yet matter does not have omnipotent powers and cannot create more of itself, nor could it have created itself in the first place, so what created it?*

"Haven't we gone over this about five times already? Nothing created it; if anything, it created itself."
*So you believe in spontaneous generation of matter out of nothing... (a "theory" science has failed to substantiate with any reputable evidence/experimentation). Why doesn't this seem to happen anymore within our observable realm of space?*

"Well, the universe has changed much since the time of the Big Bang. The conditions that caused the Big Bang to occur in the first place aren't present anymore."
*Conditions such as...?*

"Proper temperature, pressure, close proximity of all matter to itself… stuff like that."
*Uh-huh... and what caused all those things to be set just right in order for everything to explode?
(Never mind that you still haven't answered my question as to where it all came from.)*

"Random collisions and reactions of millions of atoms with each other. All matter was contained in a single point, so billions of reactions could be occurring at the same point in time. The Big Bang occurred when the outward forces caused by the billions of nuclear and chemical reactions became too great for the forces holding the matter together to overcome. KA-BOOM! It swelled up and exploded."
*So how did just the right reactions occur at just the right moments to leave us with our current roster of elements, polyatomic ions, etc. and their various properties 'n' such?*

"Randomness occurring over an infinite timescale. Given enough time, all possibilities that can happen, will happen. Matter had all the time in the universe to get everything right."
*So, you're saying that you believe in an infinite chain of finite, causal events that have no beginning or any outside cause to exist?
Also, if time is infinite, how did we ever get to now?*

"Which do you want me to answer first?"
*Take your pick.*

"Time is infinite because it never stops ticking. It has always been ticking and always will be ticking. I assume you're going to ask what initiated time to start its ticking, so let me just ask why it couldn't have always been around just like you claim your God has?"
*Because we could never have gotten to this current point in time if we were spending an eternity trying to catch up with ourselves. With no starting point and ending point on an infinitely long line of duration, how could we possibly progress from one spot to the next when we are moving forever into the past?*

"Whoa, wait a minute; time flows in one direction. We don't go from present to past; we go into the future at an infinitely fast rate since time does not stop. In fact, you could argue that the past doesn't even exist and that we are just forever transitioning from the present to the future."
*Okay… your point?*

“Well, we're here in one point in time that instantly progresses to the next…."
*Still doesn't explain how we got there in the first place if the starting point is an infinite distance away from where we are now.*

"…"
*Right…. Let’s move on, to a different point, shall we?*

“Okay, let’s.”
*You mentioned earlier that “given enough time, all possibilities that can happen, will happen.” Does this include the possibility of total system failure?*

“What do you mean by ‘system failure?’”
*Meaning that given the right conditions, the entire universe would “undo” itself.*

“The universe has ‘undone’ itself already many times over. At some point in time, possibly billions of years from now, all the matter that was flung to the far reaches of space by the Big Bang will come back together at a single point, just like it was from before the Big Bang.”
*That’s not what I meant.*

“Well, what did you mean, then?”
*By total system failure, I meant that the laws governing that entire process, from Big Bang to Big Crunch, will cease to properly function, halting the process altogether and destroying all matter in the universe. This is certainly a possibility, and according to you, all possibilities have already occurred, meaning we shouldn’t be here having this discussion since the universe should have been zapped out of existence an infinity ago.*

“…Obviously, since we’re still here, this hasn’t happened, meaning…”
*…Meaning not all possibilities have happened or are happening at the same time (like string theory tells us) since one of those possibilities is the possibility of total system failure that would negate existence… meaning we aren’t on an infinite timescale (since we haven’t been blinked out of existence yet)… meaning our universe had a definite starting point when something outside the boundaries of our physical laws caused it into being.*

“*sigh* There’s nothing I can do with you, is there? You’re just too blindly devoted to this idea of a higher being just so you can feel morally superior to me. Congratulations, you religious zealot.”
*How am I being a religious zealot if all I did was logically defend the idea of a higher power outside the realm of this universe that caused it into being? If anything, that’s only the agnostic point of view and doesn’t even bring other religions into play. I haven’t even BEGUN to delve into the logic behind my belief in the Christian god Jehovah….*

“That’s because GOD DOES NOT EXIST.”
*Funny how you keep saying that, yet you aren’t able to defend it, it seems.*

“I don’t NEED to defend it because IT’S TRUE!”
* *scoff* Who’s the religious zealot now?*

Walter Keith Koester: September 22, 1962 - March 15, 2005
God be with you, Uncle Wally.

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[Updated on: Sat, 26 August 2006 13:09]

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[Message index]

		Jesus By: Fish on Fri, 25 August 2006 23:58
		Re: Jesus By: z310 on Sat, 26 August 2006 00:06
		Re: Jesus By: Hydra on Sat, 26 August 2006 11:59
		Re: Jesus By: Dover on Sat, 26 August 2006 01:22
		Re: Jesus By: puddle_splasher on Sat, 26 August 2006 03:35
		Re: Jesus By: Dethdeath on Sat, 26 August 2006 05:37
		Re: Jesus By: Renx on Sat, 26 August 2006 12:56
		Re: Jesus By: cheesesoda on Sat, 26 August 2006 07:52
		Re: Jesus By: runewood on Sat, 26 August 2006 09:28
		Re: Jesus By: puddle_splasher on Sat, 26 August 2006 12:23
		Re: Jesus By: GoArmy44 on Sat, 26 August 2006 12:58
		Re: Jesus By: Blazer on Sat, 26 August 2006 12:54
		Conversation with an Atheist By: Hydra on Sat, 26 August 2006 13:07
		Re: Conversation with an Atheist By: Scythar on Sat, 26 August 2006 14:25
		Re: Jesus By: puddle_splasher on Sat, 26 August 2006 13:33
		Re: Jesus By: warranto on Sat, 26 August 2006 16:01
		Re: Jesus By: icedog90 on Sat, 26 August 2006 21:26
		Re: Jesus By: puddle_splasher on Sun, 27 August 2006 03:01
		Re: Jesus By: Scythar on Sun, 27 August 2006 04:35
		Re: Jesus By: warranto on Sun, 27 August 2006 07:17
		Re: Jesus By: icedog90 on Sun, 27 August 2006 08:33
		Re: Jesus By: puddle_splasher on Sun, 27 August 2006 14:16
		Re: Jesus By: puddle_splasher on Mon, 28 August 2006 08:40
		Re: Jesus By: Javaxcx on Sat, 26 August 2006 13:43
		Re: Jesus By: DarkDemin on Sat, 26 August 2006 19:30
		Re: Jesus By: Crimson on Sat, 26 August 2006 19:47
		Re: Jesus By: cheesesoda on Sat, 26 August 2006 21:00
		Re: Jesus By: Blazer on Sat, 26 August 2006 21:25
		Re: Jesus By: DarkDemin on Sat, 26 August 2006 21:47
		Re: Jesus By: xptek on Sat, 26 August 2006 22:49
		Re: Jesus By: NeoSaber on Sun, 27 August 2006 15:45
		Re: Jesus By: warranto on Sat, 26 August 2006 20:44
		Re: Jesus By: Javaxcx on Sat, 26 August 2006 22:06
		Re: Jesus By: Crimson on Sat, 26 August 2006 22:22
		Re: Jesus By: glyde51 on Sat, 26 August 2006 23:56
		Re: Jesus By: cheesesoda on Sun, 27 August 2006 08:17
		Re: Jesus By: Javaxcx on Sun, 27 August 2006 08:26
		Re: Jesus By: cheesesoda on Sun, 27 August 2006 08:35
		Re: Jesus By: Javaxcx on Sun, 27 August 2006 08:41
		Re: Jesus By: glyde51 on Sun, 27 August 2006 08:28
		Re: Jesus By: Crimson on Sun, 27 August 2006 00:58
		Re: Jesus By: pulverizer on Sun, 27 August 2006 08:35
		Re: Jesus By: cheesesoda on Sun, 27 August 2006 08:44
		Re: Jesus By: Dover on Sun, 27 August 2006 08:53
		Re: Jesus By: cheesesoda on Sun, 27 August 2006 08:58
		Re: Jesus By: Dover on Sun, 27 August 2006 09:10
		Re: Jesus By: warranto on Sun, 27 August 2006 08:54
		Re: Jesus By: Dover on Sun, 27 August 2006 09:12
		Re: Jesus By: Dover on Sun, 27 August 2006 08:40
		Re: Jesus By: Crimson on Sun, 27 August 2006 14:27
		Re: Jesus By: Javaxcx on Sun, 27 August 2006 15:14
		Re: Jesus By: cheesesoda on Sun, 27 August 2006 15:32
		Re: Jesus By: Dover on Sun, 27 August 2006 15:39
		Re: Jesus By: Crimson on Sun, 27 August 2006 21:51
		Re: Jesus By: warranto on Sun, 27 August 2006 09:16
		Re: Jesus By: Dover on Sun, 27 August 2006 09:22
		Re: Jesus By: warranto on Sun, 27 August 2006 09:56
		Re: Jesus By: Dover on Sun, 27 August 2006 14:14
		Re: Jesus By: warranto on Sun, 27 August 2006 18:43
		Re: Jesus By: puddle_splasher on Mon, 28 August 2006 01:41
		Re: Jesus By: cheesesoda on Mon, 28 August 2006 05:52
		Re: Jesus By: Dover on Mon, 28 August 2006 02:16
		Re: Jesus By: pulverizer on Sun, 27 August 2006 09:28
		Re: Jesus By: runewood on Sun, 27 August 2006 09:55
		Re: Jesus By: warranto on Sun, 27 August 2006 09:59
		Re: Jesus By: cheesesoda on Sun, 27 August 2006 10:15
		Re: Jesus By: runewood on Sun, 27 August 2006 11:48
		Re: Jesus By: Hydra on Mon, 28 August 2006 10:37
		Re: Jesus By: Blazer on Sun, 27 August 2006 15:56
		Re: Jesus By: NeoSaber on Sun, 27 August 2006 16:24
		Re: Jesus By: Blazer on Sun, 27 August 2006 18:36
		Re: Jesus By: IronWarrior on Sun, 27 August 2006 22:56
		Re: Jesus By: warranto on Mon, 28 August 2006 05:39
		Re: Jesus By: Dover on Mon, 28 August 2006 07:01
		Re: Jesus By: warranto on Mon, 28 August 2006 07:31
		Re: Jesus By: Dover on Mon, 28 August 2006 09:20
		Re: Jesus By: warranto on Mon, 28 August 2006 08:52
		Re: Jesus By: warranto on Mon, 28 August 2006 09:58
		Re: Jesus By: Dover on Mon, 28 August 2006 14:39
		Re: Jesus By: Crimson on Mon, 28 August 2006 11:23
		Re: Jesus By: cheesesoda on Mon, 28 August 2006 11:44
		Re: Jesus By: warranto on Mon, 28 August 2006 12:13
		Re: Jesus By: Crimson on Mon, 28 August 2006 13:09
		Re: Jesus By: warranto on Mon, 28 August 2006 14:15
		Re: Jesus By: Crimson on Mon, 28 August 2006 14:23
		Re: Jesus By: Javaxcx on Mon, 28 August 2006 11:51
		Re: Jesus By: cheesesoda on Mon, 28 August 2006 11:59
		Re: Jesus By: Javaxcx on Mon, 28 August 2006 12:07
		Re: Jesus By: Jecht on Mon, 28 August 2006 12:26
		Re: Jesus By: warranto on Mon, 28 August 2006 12:37
		Re: Jesus By: warranto on Thu, 07 September 2006 12:23
		Re: Jesus By: icedog90 on Mon, 28 August 2006 12:35
		Re: Jesus By: Aircraftkiller on Mon, 28 August 2006 13:21
		Re: Jesus By: Crimson on Mon, 28 August 2006 13:37
		Re: Jesus By: Aircraftkiller on Mon, 28 August 2006 13:44
		Re: Jesus By: Hydra on Mon, 28 August 2006 13:46
		Re: Jesus By: Crimson on Mon, 28 August 2006 14:08
		Re: Jesus By: warranto on Mon, 28 August 2006 14:19
		Re: Jesus By: Hydra on Tue, 29 August 2006 23:50
		Re: Jesus By: warranto on Mon, 28 August 2006 14:49
		Re: Jesus By: warranto on Mon, 28 August 2006 15:13
		Re: Jesus By: runewood on Mon, 28 August 2006 17:32
		Re: Jesus By: msgtpain on Mon, 28 August 2006 20:09
		Re: Jesus By: Javaxcx on Mon, 28 August 2006 20:21
		Re: Jesus By: msgtpain on Mon, 28 August 2006 20:37
		Re: Jesus By: Javaxcx on Mon, 28 August 2006 23:18
		Re: Jesus By: Aircraftkiller on Mon, 28 August 2006 21:44
		Re: Jesus By: DarkDemin on Mon, 28 August 2006 21:48
		Re: Jesus By: Crimson on Mon, 28 August 2006 22:17
		Re: Jesus By: ghost on Mon, 28 August 2006 22:42
		Re: Jesus By: puddle_splasher on Mon, 28 August 2006 23:07
		Re: Jesus By: warranto on Tue, 29 August 2006 05:10
		Re: Jesus By: jnz on Tue, 29 August 2006 07:40
		Re: Jesus By: Berkut on Mon, 28 August 2006 23:37
		Re: Jesus By: Scythar on Tue, 29 August 2006 06:41
		Re: Jesus By: Crimson on Tue, 29 August 2006 11:16
		Re: Jesus By: jnz on Wed, 30 August 2006 18:39
		Re: Jesus By: jnz on Tue, 29 August 2006 04:06
		Re: Jesus By: warranto on Tue, 29 August 2006 07:21
		Re: Jesus By: warranto on Tue, 29 August 2006 07:59
		Re: Jesus By: jnz on Tue, 29 August 2006 08:42
		Re: Jesus By: cheesesoda on Tue, 29 August 2006 08:47
		Re: Jesus By: warranto on Tue, 29 August 2006 08:49
		Re: Jesus By: warranto on Tue, 29 August 2006 11:31
		Re: Jesus By: Crimson on Tue, 29 August 2006 11:43
		Re: Jesus By: warranto on Tue, 29 August 2006 12:07
		Re: Jesus By: Scythar on Tue, 29 August 2006 12:00
		Re: Jesus By: Crimson on Tue, 29 August 2006 12:44
		Re: Jesus By: cheesesoda on Tue, 29 August 2006 12:48
		Re: Jesus By: Blazer on Tue, 29 August 2006 18:06
		Re: Jesus By: warranto on Tue, 29 August 2006 12:46
		Re: Jesus By: Javaxcx on Tue, 29 August 2006 12:55
		Re: Jesus By: warranto on Tue, 29 August 2006 13:24
		Re: Jesus By: Goztow on Wed, 30 August 2006 00:16
		Re: Jesus By: Crimson on Wed, 30 August 2006 04:00
		Re: Jesus By: Hydra on Wed, 30 August 2006 07:52
		Re: Jesus By: Crimson on Wed, 30 August 2006 18:22
		Re: Jesus By: cheesesoda on Wed, 30 August 2006 07:56
		Re: Jesus By: Crimson on Wed, 30 August 2006 18:29
		Re: Jesus By: warranto on Wed, 30 August 2006 06:04
		Re: Jesus By: Crimson on Wed, 30 August 2006 18:16
		Re: Jesus By: warranto on Wed, 30 August 2006 20:30
		Re: Jesus By: Crimson on Wed, 30 August 2006 22:41
		Re: Jesus By: warranto on Thu, 31 August 2006 04:48
		Re: Jesus By: Crimson on Thu, 31 August 2006 13:06
		Re: Jesus By: Scythar on Wed, 30 August 2006 07:02
		Re: Jesus By: Crimson on Wed, 30 August 2006 18:19
		Re: Jesus By: Scythar on Thu, 31 August 2006 03:07
		Re: Jesus By: Blazer on Thu, 31 August 2006 08:32
		Re: Jesus By: Hydra on Wed, 30 August 2006 07:58
		Re: Jesus By: cheesesoda on Wed, 30 August 2006 08:59
		Re: Jesus By: CarrierII on Wed, 30 August 2006 16:11
		Re: Jesus By: Oblivion165 on Wed, 30 August 2006 16:15
		Re: Jesus By: jnz on Wed, 30 August 2006 18:23
		Re: Jesus By: Crimson on Wed, 30 August 2006 18:31
		Re: Jesus By: warranto on Thu, 31 August 2006 13:21
		Re: Jesus By: Hydra on Thu, 31 August 2006 13:23
		Re: Jesus By: jnz on Thu, 31 August 2006 19:23
		Re: Jesus By: Crimson on Thu, 31 August 2006 16:31
		Re: Jesus By: cheesesoda on Thu, 31 August 2006 18:18
		Re: Jesus By: DarkDemin on Thu, 31 August 2006 20:39
		Re: Jesus By: xptek on Thu, 31 August 2006 21:38
		Re: Jesus By: cheesesoda on Thu, 31 August 2006 21:46
		Re: Jesus By: Crimson on Thu, 31 August 2006 21:32
		Re: Jesus By: Crimson on Fri, 01 September 2006 01:14
		Re: Jesus By: puddle_splasher on Fri, 01 September 2006 01:52
		Re: Jesus By: Goztow on Fri, 01 September 2006 02:33
		Re: Jesus By: puddle_splasher on Fri, 01 September 2006 07:08
		Re: Jesus By: Hydra on Fri, 01 September 2006 07:56
		Re: Jesus By: puddle_splasher on Fri, 01 September 2006 08:52
		Re: Jesus By: DarkDemin on Fri, 01 September 2006 11:11
		Re: Jesus By: warranto on Fri, 01 September 2006 09:02
		Re: Jesus By: Crimson on Fri, 01 September 2006 14:39
		Re: Jesus By: warranto on Fri, 01 September 2006 21:33
		Re: Jesus By: Aircraftkiller on Fri, 01 September 2006 21:52
		Re: Jesus By: Goztow on Sat, 02 September 2006 07:44
		Re: Jesus By: Dover on Fri, 01 September 2006 18:14
		Re: Jesus By: cheesesoda on Fri, 01 September 2006 18:43
		Re: Jesus By: Crimson on Sat, 02 September 2006 00:39
		Re: Jesus By: cheesesoda on Sat, 02 September 2006 04:34
		Re: Jesus By: Scythar on Sat, 02 September 2006 09:54
		Re: Jesus By: Crimson on Sat, 02 September 2006 22:02
		Re: Jesus By: Hydra on Sun, 03 September 2006 14:14
		Re: Jesus By: Crimson on Sun, 03 September 2006 15:39
		Re: Jesus By: Hydra on Sun, 03 September 2006 22:00
		Re: Jesus By: Kamuix on Sun, 03 September 2006 22:21
		Re: Jesus By: Scythar on Tue, 05 September 2006 05:32
		Re: Jesus By: CarrierII on Wed, 06 September 2006 06:16
		Re: Jesus By: CarrierII on Sun, 03 September 2006 17:20
		Re: Jesus By: Crimson on Sun, 03 September 2006 22:17
		Re: Jesus By: thrash300 on Mon, 04 September 2006 18:16
		Re: Jesus By: Hydra on Mon, 04 September 2006 22:03
		Re: Jesus By: NukeIt15 on Wed, 06 September 2006 15:20
		Re: Jesus By: Hydra on Wed, 06 September 2006 17:12
		Re: Jesus By: Scythar on Thu, 07 September 2006 02:09
		Re: Jesus By: Fabian on Wed, 06 September 2006 18:22
		Re: Jesus By: cheesesoda on Wed, 06 September 2006 18:33
		Re: Jesus By: fl00d3d on Thu, 07 September 2006 04:03
		Re: Jesus By: Crimson on Thu, 07 September 2006 11:05
		Re: Jesus By: xptek on Fri, 08 September 2006 13:47
		Re: Jesus By: warranto on Fri, 08 September 2006 14:07
		Re: Jesus By: Berkut on Fri, 08 September 2006 21:57
		Re: Jesus By: xptek on Fri, 08 September 2006 22:01
		Re: Jesus By: Metal Vixen on Sat, 09 September 2006 04:43
		Re: Jesus By: puddle_splasher on Sun, 10 September 2006 04:49
		Re: Jesus By: Anonymous on Tue, 12 September 2006 20:41
		Re: Jesus By: jnz on Tue, 12 September 2006 23:59
		Re: Jesus By: Metal Vixen on Sat, 09 September 2006 04:50
		Re: Jesus By: Crimson on Wed, 13 September 2006 03:58
		Re: Jesus By: Scythar on Wed, 13 September 2006 04:25

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