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Pointfix poll. Bug or Balance? [message #414480] Fri, 18 December 2009 19:26 Go to next message
ChewML is currently offline  ChewML
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What would you classify the original point system as? (meaning before a pointfix)[ 50 votes ]
1. Bug, meaning not intended to be originally. 32 / 64%
2. Balance issue, meaning that it was created with the original point system on purpose. 18 / 36%

ITT: A poll with 2 distinct options.

If you vote option 1, you are saying that you think that the original point system was a bug (like a lot of other things in Renegade). AKA the pro-pointfix camp.

If you vote option 2, you are saying you think that the game was meant to give you a lot of points when sniping tanks, but doing very little damage, because of a balance issue. AKA the anti-pointfix camp.

This poll was made because of the other thread which didn't actually follow with the original discussion.

If you reply in this thread, this is what I ask that you include in you post:

1. A logical reason as to why you think that the point system was or was not intended to be how it is.

2. No derailing this topic please. Keep to is it or is it not a "bug".

3. No flaming, including insulting people's intelligence, and questioning people's sexual preference as this is not a thread about sexual ideas.

[Updated on: Fri, 18 December 2009 19:28]

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Re: Pointfix poll. Bug or Balance? [message #414481 is a reply to message #414480] Fri, 18 December 2009 19:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ChewML is currently offline  ChewML
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I voted option 1, as I think that it does not make sense for someone to get a lot of points when they are barely damaging vehicles.

And if anyone votes option 2, I would ask them to explain to me why it was needed to "balance" Renegade.
Re: Pointfix poll. Bug or Balance? [message #414482 is a reply to message #414481] Fri, 18 December 2009 20:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Spoony is currently offline  Spoony
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to put it bluntly, you can only think 2 if you ignore all the evidence. it's been conclusively proven that the point bug was never supposed to be there.

here's the thing that must be said:
at the beginning of the pointsfix debates, the entirety of the argument from the anti-pointsfix side was: "this was supposed to happen, it's not a bug". that was the only argument they felt was necessary; evidently they were convinced of it and they were also convinced that it was enough to close the debate.

it was soon proven wrong, and then the anti-pointsfix crowd basically split into two schools of thought.
1. people who refused to look at the evidence
2. people who did acknowledge that the pointsfix is the original renegade points system, but at that point decided that whether it was the original points system didn't matter at all anymore.

when they thought the opposite, they considered it the be-all end-all of the argument. when it was proven wrong, it suddenly became irrelevant. i'm sorry to say that people are not allowed to forget that they did this.


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[Updated on: Fri, 18 December 2009 20:21]

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Re: Pointfix poll. Bug or Balance? [message #414483 is a reply to message #414480] Fri, 18 December 2009 20:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ChewML is currently offline  ChewML
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So 1 vote for option 2, but no post containing a logical answer as to why?
Re: Pointfix poll. Bug or Balance? [message #414484 is a reply to message #414480] Fri, 18 December 2009 20:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ELiT3FLyR is currently offline  ELiT3FLyR
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whoever said it wasnt a bug? why get rid of a bug that makes the game better?

ps. i just know zimmer fag or the likes will be like LOL LETS KEEP BLUESCREEN THNE?!!?!
Re: Pointfix poll. Bug or Balance? [message #414485 is a reply to message #414484] Fri, 18 December 2009 20:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ChewML is currently offline  ChewML
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ELiT3FLyR wrote on Fri, 18 December 2009 21:43

whoever said it wasnt a bug? why get rid of a bug that makes the game better?

ps. i just know zimmer fag or the likes will be like LOL LETS KEEP BLUESCREEN THNE?!!?!


You already lost... A. You admitted it is a bug, B. You already called someone a fag, C. You voted wrong, you said bug in post, but voted option #2...

I would suggest that you do not publicly represent the anti-pointfix camp anymore as you are not doing them any favors.

I had to catch myself like 3 times, I almost broke one of my own rules by making a remark about his IQ...

[Updated on: Fri, 18 December 2009 20:52]

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Re: Pointfix poll. Bug or Balance? [message #414488 is a reply to message #414485] Fri, 18 December 2009 21:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
kadoosh is currently offline  kadoosh
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Chew wrote on Fri, 18 December 2009 22:51

ELiT3FLyR wrote on Fri, 18 December 2009 21:43

whoever said it wasnt a bug? why get rid of a bug that makes the game better?

ps. i just know zimmer fag or the likes will be like LOL LETS KEEP BLUESCREEN THNE?!!?!


You already lost... A. You admitted it is a bug, B. You already called someone a fag, C. You voted wrong, you said bug in post, but voted option #2...

I would suggest that you do not publicly represent the anti-pointfix camp anymore as you are not doing them any favors.

I had to catch myself like 3 times, I almost broke one of my own rules by making a remark about his IQ...


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Re: Pointfix poll. Bug or Balance? [message #414491 is a reply to message #414484] Fri, 18 December 2009 21:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Spoony is currently offline  Spoony
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ELiT3FLyR wrote on Fri, 18 December 2009 21:43

whoever said it wasnt a bug?

check my reply.


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Re: Pointfix poll. Bug or Balance? [message #414493 is a reply to message #414480] Sat, 19 December 2009 00:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rcmorr09 is currently offline  rcmorr09
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I voted 2 because it's my lucky number!
Re: Pointfix poll. Bug or Balance? [message #414495 is a reply to message #414484] Sat, 19 December 2009 01:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
GEORGE ZIMMER is currently offline  GEORGE ZIMMER
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ELiT3FLyR wrote on Sat, 19 December 2009 04:43

whoever said it wasnt a bug? why get rid of a bug that makes the game better?

ps. i just know zimmer fag or the likes will be like LOL LETS KEEP BLUESCREEN THNE?!!?!

Ha, didn't even comment in this and I'm already getting called a fag.

Anyways, definitely a bug. Evidence aside, it's just buggy in nature. It's also a pretty damn big balance issue- it's giving people who know of it an advantage over those who don't. This is a terrible way for any form of gameplay, and I guarantee Westwood would not have intended for it to be this way.


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Re: Pointfix poll. Bug or Balance? [message #414504 is a reply to message #414480] Sat, 19 December 2009 04:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Herr Surth is currently offline  Herr Surth
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Re: Pointfix poll. Bug or Balance? [message #414508 is a reply to message #414480] Sat, 19 December 2009 08:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
R315r4z0r is currently offline  R315r4z0r
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I don't think it's a bug nor do I think it was implemented for balance reasons.

I think it was just a scoring oversight on EA's part.
Re: Pointfix poll. Bug or Balance? [message #414510 is a reply to message #414508] Sat, 19 December 2009 10:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dover is currently offline  Dover
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R315r4z0r wrote on Sat, 19 December 2009 07:33

I don't think it's a bug nor do I think it was implemented for balance reasons.

I think it was just a scoring oversight on EA's part.



Yeah. That would make it a bug.


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Re: Pointfix poll. Bug or Balance? [message #414512 is a reply to message #414480] Sat, 19 December 2009 10:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CarrierII is currently offline  CarrierII
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I will moderate the fuck out of this topic. I expect some nice logical replies from the anti- and pro- pointsfix camps. Then we can leave the damned thing alone. Hahah, hahah, ha. Ha.

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[Updated on: Sat, 19 December 2009 10:06]

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Re: Pointfix poll. Bug or Balance? [message #414517 is a reply to message #414512] Sat, 19 December 2009 10:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
EvilWhiteDragon is currently offline  EvilWhiteDragon
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If this was intended, there wouldn't have been a difference between armour and health. You now get bugged points when shooting armour. When it goes in the yellow (health) you'll get 'pointfixed' points.

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Re: Pointfix poll. Bug or Balance? [message #414519 is a reply to message #414480] Sat, 19 December 2009 10:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CarrierII is currently offline  CarrierII
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StealthEye already proved it was a bug: see the other topic for my post.

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Re: Pointfix poll. Bug or Balance? [message #414525 is a reply to message #414510] Sat, 19 December 2009 11:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
R315r4z0r is currently offline  R315r4z0r
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Dover wrote on Sat, 19 December 2009 12:02

R315r4z0r wrote on Sat, 19 December 2009 07:33

I don't think it's a bug nor do I think it was implemented for balance reasons.

I think it was just a scoring oversight on EA's part.



Yeah. That would make it a bug.

No, a bug is an unintended side effect of doing something else. For example, changing the armor type of a vehicle to let it be more resilient to something else, but at the same time screwing up the balance with another vehicle using the same armor type. Or a line of code used to amplify a graphical technique that accidentally conflicts with something else causing crashes or black screens.

This issue was just a forgotten balance addressing. It was just so subtle of a problem, so tiny, so unimposing, that no one noticed it until years after the retail version was released.

It's like forgetting to buy a certain item when you went out shopping.

[Updated on: Sat, 19 December 2009 11:36]

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Re: Pointfix poll. Bug or Balance? [message #414529 is a reply to message #414525] Sat, 19 December 2009 11:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ChewML is currently offline  ChewML
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R315r4z0r wrote on Sat, 19 December 2009 12:31

Dover wrote on Sat, 19 December 2009 12:02

R315r4z0r wrote on Sat, 19 December 2009 07:33

I don't think it's a bug nor do I think it was implemented for balance reasons.

I think it was just a scoring oversight on EA's part.



Yeah. That would make it a bug.

No, a bug is an unintended side effect of doing something else. For example, changing the armor type of a vehicle to let it be more resilient to something else, but at the same time screwing up the balance with another vehicle using the same armor type. Or a line of code used to amplify a graphical technique that accidentally conflicts with something else causing crashes or black screens.

This issue was just a forgotten balance addressing. It was just so subtle of a problem, so tiny, so unimposing, that no one noticed it until years after the retail version was released.

It's like forgetting to buy a certain item when you went out shopping.


1. It has already been proven to be caused by an error in code = bug. Reference Carrier's post in the other thread.

2. It likely subtle at first, because what person would start to play this game and think first to go snipe a harv? Nobody. Later on though someone was prolly just being bored and started shooting at it one day when there where no other targets, or maybe they missed there intentional target and hit it a few times. Then they realized, "Hey I just got a lot of points for that lols... I SHOULD DO THIS MORE OFTEN TO GET MVP". And so the bullshit spread like the black plague infecting every n00b that couldn't use a tank.
Re: Pointfix poll. Bug or Balance? [message #414533 is a reply to message #414480] Sat, 19 December 2009 13:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
R315r4z0r is currently offline  R315r4z0r
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Well, tbh... I've never payed attention to points. I mean, I look at the scoreboard every so often to either check my position in the ladder or to check to see if I'm hitting my target at the edge of my range (score will change if I hit something). But I don't think I've ever noticed the exact number values that have changed or taken note.

But then again, I don't play in clan matches and I don't have a need to do so, so don't take what I say to heart.

However the reason why I responded was to reference something you said:

Quote:

It likely subtle at first, because what person would start to play this game and think first to go snipe a harv? Nobody.

Me, actually. I've been guilty of doing such pointless tasks simply because of force of habit. It's rather hard to explain, but for as long as I can remember, shooting certain armored vehicles with a ramjet gave off this feeling of satisfaction. The same sort of feeling when you fire at a helicopter or buggy... except you don't notice the physical damage. It's sort of like satisfying a habit or an itch. Actually, it really isn't specific to a ramjet. Any infantry, other than engineers. I'll waste autorifle clips of firing at a light tank because I think I'm actually significant damage to it. (some damage is better than no damage, right?)

I have caught myself wasting ammo on such vehicles and then asking myself what was doing that in the first place. (Sort of catching yourself staring into space.)

When I say 'certain armored vehicles,' I mean more specifically the Light tank, the Stealth tank and the Harvester. For some reason it feels like I should shoot them with the ramjet. It sounds stupid, I know, but there just so 'shootable' that it's hard to resist lol. (This does not go for other vehicles like Medium tanks, flame tanks, ect as they don't give off that same feeling of accomplishment that the Light tank and stealth tank do.) I've ever since stopped it, however, since I learned about the point imbalance (which was rather recently, I might add. I never noticed the point issue until someone brought it up on these forums).

But to get to my point, I'm saying you shouldn't put it past you that someone might just shoot the vehicle just because they might have the urge to do so. Don't assume and try to apply your own reasoning as to why they are doing it because most of the time you will be wrong. Something doesn't have to be logical for it to happen. People are illogical, no matter how much you might not believe so, most of the tasks people perform every day have no logical meaning to them and yet people do them anyway. My communication teacher says to never attempt to understand other people; you will waste your life away. Before you try to understand other people, you first have to learn to understand yourself.

[Updated on: Sat, 19 December 2009 13:27]

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Re: Pointfix poll. Bug or Balance? [message #414537 is a reply to message #414480] Sat, 19 December 2009 14:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CarrierII is currently offline  CarrierII
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Actually, when I'm in a light, massed GDI autorifles (like, 6+ soldiers) is quite scary...


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Re: Pointfix poll. Bug or Balance? [message #414539 is a reply to message #414480] Sat, 19 December 2009 14:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
R315r4z0r is currently offline  R315r4z0r
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Ok, so then it isn't my imagination then. Thumbs Up
Re: Pointfix poll. Bug or Balance? [message #414543 is a reply to message #414480] Sat, 19 December 2009 14:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ChewML is currently offline  ChewML
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Yes, if you had a whole team of Havocs sniping the harv it would do pretty noticable damage, but they would all stop when it's health goes into the yellow lols... Also if you plan on attacking a tank, you should get a mobius or pic... hell you could do more damage with a grenader... it takes what your timed and not quite all your grenades to kill the harv? How many havoc shots would it take?

If I have a Havoc and I see a tank really low on health I will shoot at it, but I am not gonna waste my ammo shooting a full health harv.
Re: Pointfix poll. Bug or Balance? [message #414606 is a reply to message #414543] Sun, 20 December 2009 01:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Re: Pointfix poll. Bug or Balance? [message #414698 is a reply to message #414480] Sun, 20 December 2009 11:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Spoony, I'm going to have to reprimand you on account of the fact your post contained more logic than is allowable in any sort of debate. Furthermore, your post actually backed itself up with evidence. This is unacceptable. I will be discussing the length of your ban period with the administration.

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Re: Pointfix poll. Bug or Balance? [message #414812 is a reply to message #414533] Mon, 21 December 2009 01:22 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
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R315r4z0r wrote on Sat, 19 December 2009 13:15

Well, tbh... I've never payed attention to points.


You don't have to pay attention to points to be affected by this bug. As you undoubtedly know, points = credits, and surely you have made purchases with credits that you wouldn't have earned doing the same action on a fixed server.

So, let's say that you're down to your barracks and the other team has you pinned. You can't leave your base without dying, they are sending wave after wave of vehicles after your barracks. Your engies/hotties are getting credits (at half the rate of the enemy) for repairing the barracks, but your Mobius and PICs are killing the stanks/ftanks and getting so much extra money, that they are able to replace their character when they fail to dodge the several snipers surrounding the base.

This never-ending loop continues... Nod has plenty of income from their attacks so they don't have to let up on them. GDI makes stupid money from shooting tanks that they can keep a good stock of PIC and Mobius despite heavy sniper cover. Unfortunately, GDI's unbalance and bugged point growth eventually overshadow's Nod and now the team that was pwnt to the max wins that map.

This can not stand, surely.


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