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Advantage huds [message #366174] Tue, 06 January 2009 12:23 Go to next message
BlueThen is currently offline  BlueThen
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Custom Huds[ 60 votes ]
1. Fair 40 / 67%
2. Unfair 20 / 33%

Should a hud be able to show building health, mines, and other stuff and be considered fair?

I've noticed that there's been a lot of debate in the mod forums about how Custom Huds showing extra information to the player should be unallowed. Discuss.


Edit: Oops, wrong forum. can a mod move this to heated discussions and debates?

[Updated on: Tue, 06 January 2009 12:33]

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Re: Advantage huds [message #366182 is a reply to message #366174] Tue, 06 January 2009 12:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jnz is currently offline  jnz
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If scrin's cheats are allowed, custom huds sure are.
Re: Advantage huds [message #366185 is a reply to message #366182] Tue, 06 January 2009 13:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
u6795 is currently offline  u6795
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RoShamBo wrote on Tue, 06 January 2009 14:59

If scrin's cheats are allowed, custom huds sure are.



yeah
Re: Advantage huds [message #366186 is a reply to message #366174] Tue, 06 January 2009 13:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
nope.avi is currently offline  nope.avi
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Why not in public games...Doesn't really matter THAT much. I could see it being used as an advantage in competitive games though

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Re: Advantage huds [message #366191 is a reply to message #366186] Tue, 06 January 2009 13:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
YazooGang is currently offline  YazooGang
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Its basicly "!c4" and the "K" key. Why should it be called a cheat? No seriously? its like taking the seconds to hid and type words, that shouldnt be a cheat. :S

I understand, that "how many sbh does the enemy has" "how many nukes/ion does the enemy has" should be cheats, but the mine limint and building health, simple stuff that wont change anything.
Re: Advantage huds [message #366196 is a reply to message #366174] Tue, 06 January 2009 13:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mrãçķz is currently offline  mrãçķz
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You forgot "New Huds Suck".
Re: Advantage huds [message #366197 is a reply to message #366174] Tue, 06 January 2009 13:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
NukeIt15 is currently offline  NukeIt15
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If it provides you with information that someone without the custom HUD wouldn't have at all (mine limit), then it is a cheat. If you can see on your HUD information which another player must bring up a view-obscuring status screen to obtain (building health), then it is a cheat. If you can see through a normally opaque display while another player might have a blind spot because of it, then you are also cheating. You aren't creating the sort of disgusting imbalance that a wallhacker would, but you're still loading yourself with advantages that other players do not have.

We aren't talking about 'lock camera to turret' radio button here; if the change cannot be made from inside the game using the settings menu then it has no place in an online match.

The only exceptions I can see to that are custom crosshairs and color changes.


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Re: Advantage huds [message #366201 is a reply to message #366197] Tue, 06 January 2009 13:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
BlueThen is currently offline  BlueThen
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I do agree that it's an advantage. But definitely not as much so that it should be restricted. Although you can be told about building health and c4 limit, it doesn't really give you the advantage of being able to repair it from anywhere. It'd be as useful as the "k" command, but probably used more often.

If anything, I think it should be for the server to decide and if TT can make it possible, have it just plain disable the hud rather than keeping the player out.
Re: Advantage huds [message #366208 is a reply to message #366174] Tue, 06 January 2009 14:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CarrierII is currently offline  CarrierII
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You don't even need to type "!c4", pressing the "End" key does the same thing (that's the standard shortcut anyway)

It's only about .5 of a second faster at best, but the point about transparent displays allowing you to view what were previously "blind spots" is correct, that is unfair.


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Re: Advantage huds [message #366212 is a reply to message #366208] Tue, 06 January 2009 14:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
YazooGang is currently offline  YazooGang
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I think, that TT should make a hud, then put it in the TT. So, when ever it releases, we all would have the same hud, so it wont be considered as a cheat.
Re: Advantage huds [message #366215 is a reply to message #366212] Tue, 06 January 2009 15:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mrãçķz is currently offline  mrãçķz
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YazooGang wrote on Tue, 06 January 2009 15:51

I think, that TT should make a hud, then put it in the TT. So, when ever it releases, we all would have the same hud, so it wont be considered as a cheat.


I want to use the Old HUD.
Re: Advantage huds [message #366219 is a reply to message #366174] Tue, 06 January 2009 16:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
GEORGE ZIMMER is currently offline  GEORGE ZIMMER
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An advantage essentially means something that is not standard to the general public, and is something that's good for you.

Therefore, it's an advantage. It'd only not be if it's standard for everyone.


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Re: Advantage huds [message #366224 is a reply to message #366212] Tue, 06 January 2009 16:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
BlueThen is currently offline  BlueThen
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YazooGang wrote on Tue, 06 January 2009 15:51

I think, that TT should make a hud, then put it in the TT. So, when ever it releases, we all would have the same hud, so it wont be considered as a cheat.

Maybe not make their own hud, but add on to the initial hud, and add command lines which could toggle these things on or off.
Re: Advantage huds [message #366231 is a reply to message #366208] Tue, 06 January 2009 17:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dr3w2 is currently offline  dr3w2
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CarrierII wrote on Tue, 06 January 2009 15:16

You don't even need to type "!c4", pressing the "End" key does the same thing (that's the standard shortcut anyway)



So wait? if I don't have corepatch installed then I have no way of using this tool, and would have to stop, press f2, and type !c4 in game, as apposed to mapping the !c4 to a single button ( you can change it from "end" to anything else)

So wait, by you having core patch and I don't then you would have an advantage over me. Corepatch isn't officially supported by EA/Westwood so it's not a standard. Many players are not currently using corepatch.
For example, right now in n00bsvr01:

(07:17:47) @/n00bsvr01 > There are 28 Core Patch users and 16 no-CP users online

So 28 people have an advantage over 16 people?


I know its not an advantage to the same degree has building code, but its the same idea of having something else another person doesn't have, by default.


n00bstories Server Administrator

[Updated on: Tue, 06 January 2009 17:20]

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Re: Advantage huds [message #366233 is a reply to message #366174] Tue, 06 January 2009 17:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
R315r4z0r is currently offline  R315r4z0r
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You don't make specific what an advantage HUD is.

In my opinion, a HUD that shows building health and mine limits are not a cheat. However HUDs that show information that people elsewhere would have to physically check or simply don't have access to should be considered advantage HUDs and should not be tolerated. But that is the absolute literal definition. What should really qualify as an advantage is if you gain an absolutely effective advantage over other people.

The reason why a HUD that shows building health and mine limits shouldn't be considered an advantage is because everyone already has access to this information quickly and easily.

If you want to check the health of buildings, press J or K. If you want to check C4 limits, press the key binding for the C4 command or type !c4.

It's not information that you have at your fingertips that other players don't. Thus it isn't an advantage. I mean, if you want to split hairs and say "Oh but it might take a half a second longer doing it the normal way!" Then that's from your own experience, but other people might have different reaction times or reflexes and thus might find the original way to be faster.... but even still, it's simply ridiculous to consider something a cheat because of something that happens in a split second.

Not to mention different people might prefer the older way of doing something even if they have the "advantage" HUD in question.


Edit: If you consider a HUD that gives health and mine limits a cheat, then you also have to consider those Logitech keyboards a cheat as well.
Edit2: Also, that argument about "blind spots" is also not something that can be taken into consideration here. Why? Because people can easily change the size of their HUD by changing their resolution. Therefore if you think that is considered a cheat, then someone running on 1680x1050 must be cheating because someone running on 800x600 is not able to see behind their radar.

Edit3: However, then again, you might not want to take my opinion into consideration here. Because I actually don't care if there are cheaters in a server playing against me. The way I see it, if someone is cheating me, I don't care just as long as it isn't painfully obvious.

That means if someone has some sort of advantage that lets them do something a second earlier than me or makes me bight green or something, I don't care. In fact, bring it on as it is those kinds of things that I like to fight against as it just hones my own skills at playing the game.

[Updated on: Tue, 06 January 2009 17:59]

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Re: Advantage huds [message #366262 is a reply to message #366174] Tue, 06 January 2009 23:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
NukeIt15 is currently offline  NukeIt15
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So let me make sure I've got this straight- mods which "just" alter the game to make actions quicker and easier shouldn't be considered cheats?

That half-second isn't splitting hairs- it is a moment of vulnerability which is eliminated if you download an augmented HUD. Half a second can see a lull in the action punctuated by a surprise rocket to the face... a rocket which you could see coming and evadewith the mod, but couldn't without it.

At what point, do you think, does a mod to make things more convenient begin to give one player an edge over another? How much of an edge does it have to give that player before it is considered unfair?

Quote:

but other people might have different reaction times or reflexes and thus might find the original way to be faster...


Funny how you'd have to have reaction times in the negative numbers to achieve that.


"Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. Horrid mischief would ensue were (the law-abiding) deprived of the use of them." - Thomas Paine

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Re: Advantage huds [message #366266 is a reply to message #366262] Wed, 07 January 2009 00:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
R315r4z0r is currently offline  R315r4z0r
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NukeIt15:

So let me make sure I've got this straight- mods which "just" alter the game to make actions quicker and easier shouldn't be considered cheats?

No, that isn't what I said. A HUD that makes an irrelevant action a fraction of a second, if anything faster than someone else shouldn't be considered a cheat.

NukeIt15:

That half-second isn't splitting hairs- it is a moment of vulnerability which is eliminated if you download an augmented HUD.

No, it's splitting hairs. There is no vulnerability gained at all! What's the difference in being able to simultaneously play and check a mine limit in 1 second than simultaneously play and check a mine limit in .5 seconds? There IS NO difference. You may have knowledge .5 seconds earlier than anyone else, but your character in the game can only move at one speed.

Scenario time:
In a 3v3 game. You mine in only 1 spot. You are at the far side of the base when you decide to check the mine limit.
1. While running around, you bring up the C4 menu, notice the C4 is low, and run to investigate
2. While running around, you glance at the counter, notice it is low, and run to investigate.

In both scenarios, you will arrive at the scene at the same time due to the reason you are running at the same speed. Thus, any information you manage to get .5 seconds earlier than anyone else, if any, means nothing because you are going to take the same amount of time to get to the location to investigate.

I'll put it another way. You are in a car that has about a half-mile of gas left in it. The nearest station is 2 miles. What would be the difference in the result of you finding out you had low fuel by glancing down at the gauge or by some sort of automated voice telling you low fuel? There would be no difference in the end result because you aren't going to make it to the station regardless.

To put it simply. I downloaded this HUD and absolutely nothing has changed in my play style or in the results of a match I play in. I read my screen with peripheral vision and quick split second glances.

The way I check up on my base's structures is by rapidly pressing the K (or is it J?) key. Doing that lets me take the quick flashes of the menu to see what building is under attack and it also allows me to keep moving while I check it.

The way I used to check C4 was by pressing the "/" key on my keyboard (my !C4 key binding), without looking mind you, and then glancing at what the count is at the top of the screen. What is the difference or advantage I gain in me looking at the bottom of the screen than on the top of the screen?

And not only that, but I still use the !C4 command to do things such as double check the mine count on the HUD and check remotes & times.

But lets just forget this whole discussion about the time it takes you to have this 'advantage' and lets focus on exactly what this 'advantage' is. What is it exactly? What advantage is clearly given to someone using a HUD that shows a mine count over someone who doesn't? What am I going to do with a mine count to make it unfair against my opponents? In a game with 20 people on each team? 10? 5?

There is no game-altering advantage given at all, not in the least.

NukeIt15:

At what point, do you think, does a mod to make things more convenient begin to give one player an edge over another? How much of an edge does it have to give that player before it is considered unfair?

Enough of an edge to send a shiver of imbalance through the game. Something that gives you the upper hand. Something that you have access to that everyone else doesn't. That's what I would consider to be unfair.

For example, if you had infinite ammo. Or some sort of way of detecting where enemy troops near you are. Or had faster bullet projectiles than other people. Or larger models making it easier to hit others. Or some sort of sound that alerted you when an enemy entered a structure or when an enemy places C4. Or brightly colored C4. Ect, ect, ect.

Those are advantages. Having the ability to check something irrelevant to your battle plot a quarter of a second, if any, faster than another person is not what I would consider an unfair advantage. By definition it is an advantage, but it isn't what would be an unfair advantage.

[Updated on: Wed, 07 January 2009 00:53]

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Re: Advantage huds [message #366272 is a reply to message #366174] Wed, 07 January 2009 04:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Goztow is currently offline  Goztow
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The !c4 command isn't continuous. It shows the mine limit at a certain moment and you cannot press it again to get an update before the message dissapears.

For "k" or "j": if you want to have a continuous view of it, you need to hold it all the time, hence you cannot play.

It's not the fact you can see the mine limit and the building health in the hud that is unfair, it's the fact you can see it at any time and immediately notice changes the moment they happen.

Let me put it the other way: if I told you I removed your entire radar from the hud to the screen you get when pressing 'j', wouldn't you consider it a disadvantage? If so, then I think I proved my point.


You can find me in The KOSs2 (TK2) discord while I'm playing. Feel free to come and say hi! TK2 discord

[Updated on: Wed, 07 January 2009 04:04]

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Re: Advantage huds [message #366287 is a reply to message #366233] Wed, 07 January 2009 06:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Reaver11 is currently offline  Reaver11
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R315r4z0r wrote on Tue, 06 January 2009 18:44


Edit: If you consider a HUD that gives health and mine limits a cheat, then you also have to consider those Logitech keyboards a cheat as well.



To my knowledge the keyboard will only recieve information IF the game gives it to the keyboard. At my knowledge it doenst even work in renegade.

Yes the hud healthbar harvbar minelimit bar are nice features.
A= You cannot force it on the entheire renegade community. Thus not everyone uses it.
B= Do you get an advantage?

In my eyes yes you have an advantage. Someone that is sniping in the field can now see the minecounter decreasing rappidly. He can message. Hmmm there is no one in the field someone is sneaking in! (There are plenty of blindspots in a base, take complex the ref door near the tibfield). Normally you wouldnt notice it.

Because who is doing !c4 when he is in the middle of the field sniping?

Same goes for the buildings the EVA auto announce is every 30 secondes. Plus who would use 'J','K' every second? Seeing the building health constantly means you can no longer fool the enemys EVA.

I have to admit that the advantage from these hud is bigger in small games. (say 3 vs 3 or 5 vs 5)
Re: Advantage huds [message #366295 is a reply to message #366174] Wed, 07 January 2009 08:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
IronWarrior is currently offline  IronWarrior
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It's not a cheat, maybe a advantage since for now only a few players can use this, but if it was added in a patch than everyone has it.

But hey, am using dual screens to play, so I have a big advantage over players who are only using one or who are using a smaller resolution than me.
Re: Advantage huds [message #366309 is a reply to message #366295] Wed, 07 January 2009 10:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Goztow is currently offline  Goztow
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IronWarrior wrote on Wed, 07 January 2009 16:21

It's not a cheat, maybe a advantage since for now only a few players can use this, but if it was added in a patch than everyone has it.


If everyone had bighead, it wouldn't be a cheat anymore either...


You can find me in The KOSs2 (TK2) discord while I'm playing. Feel free to come and say hi! TK2 discord
Re: Advantage huds [message #366310 is a reply to message #366174] Wed, 07 January 2009 10:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
reborn is currently offline  reborn
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What about touch screen monitors? Is that a cheat?

If I can simply use a stylus to pinpoint my reticle at someones head, on my 100" LCD screen is that cheating?



Re: Advantage huds [message #366311 is a reply to message #366174] Wed, 07 January 2009 11:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Herr Surth is currently offline  Herr Surth
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AND ITS NOT RIDICULOUS TO COMPARE BIGHEAD WITH SOMETHING THAT DOESNT HAVE YOU PRESS "K" IN QUICK SUCCESSION ( SO YOU LOSE ALMOST NO SPEED ).
Re: Advantage huds [message #366318 is a reply to message #366272] Wed, 07 January 2009 12:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
R315r4z0r is currently offline  R315r4z0r
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Goztow wrote on Wed, 07 January 2009 06:00

For "k" or "j": if you want to have a continuous view of it, you need to hold it all the time, hence you cannot play.

That's not how it works though. You cannot hold down the button because it doesn't refresh the screen. You need to keep pressing the button to get an updated view of what is being damaged.

Quote:

It's not the fact you can see the mine limit and the building health in the hud that is unfair, it's the fact you can see it at any time and immediately notice changes the moment they happen

I disagree with this too. It isn't a noticeable element to the HUD. You wont notice any change in the mine drop if you are doing what you normally do. The only time you will notice its changes is if you devote the time to constantly look at it, which will cause more harm rather than help.

I have a test. If you think it is so much of a cheat, then download it and just TRY to use it as a cheat. Because you can try to 'exploit' it all you want, but you are going to fail horribly. If you try to use this HUD as a cheat, then you will only hurt your own game. That's the dividing line and why it shouldn't be considered unfair.

[Updated on: Wed, 07 January 2009 12:07]

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Re: Advantage huds [message #366322 is a reply to message #366174] Wed, 07 January 2009 12:36 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Goztow is currently offline  Goztow
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Quote:

I disagree with this too. It isn't a noticeable element to the HUD. You wont notice any change in the mine drop if you are doing what you normally do. The only time you will notice its changes is if you devote the time to constantly look at it, which will cause more harm rather than help.

So you mean you can't see two things at the same time on the same screen?


You can find me in The KOSs2 (TK2) discord while I'm playing. Feel free to come and say hi! TK2 discord
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