Home » General Discussions » Heated Discussions and Debates » Why did you vote for Obama?
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| Re: Why did you vote for Obama? [message #361201 is a reply to message #361184] |
Wed, 03 December 2008 09:42   |
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Spoony
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| cheesesoda wrote on Wed, 03 December 2008 07:59 |
| Spoony |
I know all this; you haven't answered my question. What was this garbage about "focusing on keeping Christians in office"?
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In America, that's not "garbage", it's the sad truth.
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ok, a minimum of one of us is very confused. Let me rephrase my question.
Here's what you said to me, word for word.
You hate state religions, so why is it a good reason to focus on keeping Christians in office that are undoubtably going to keep religion in government?
My question was: why/how do you think I'm doing that? This is all in response to my opinion that taking somebody's religion into account when choosing who to vote for is entirely valid.
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Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
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1. the inevitable criticism one receives after doing something awful
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| Re: Why did you vote for Obama? [message #361202 is a reply to message #357510] |
Wed, 03 December 2008 09:49 |
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I don't think YOU are doing that, but (seemingly) most people do. However, I still don't think disregarding someone because of their religion affiliation or lack thereof is valid.
I'm not saying there aren't legitimate grievances with religions and the teachings inherent in the religion, BUT just because someone is associated with the religion doesn't mean that they should be grouped in with the rest.
The vast majority of Christians believe that homosexuality is wrong, and they work tirelessly to keep Gay Marriage illegal. That doesn't mean, however, that there are no sane Christians deserving of a vote. Even if Obama is/was a Muslim, if he keeps his faith's teachings from mixing with government, then I don't see the problem.
Libertarian Party | The King's Throne | The Soda Shop
[Updated on: Wed, 03 December 2008 09:53] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Why did you vote for Obama? [message #361218 is a reply to message #361202] |
Wed, 03 December 2008 12:41 |
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u6795
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| cheesesoda wrote on Wed, 03 December 2008 11:49 |
The vast majority of Christians believe that homosexuality is wrong, and they work tirelessly to keep Gay Marriage illegal. That doesn't mean, however, that there are no sane Christians deserving of a vote. Even if Obama is/was a Muslim, if he keeps his faith's teachings from mixing with government, then I don't see the problem.
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The thing with Islam is that it's insanely strict, so if a Muslim were elected President or any high office in America he'd be forced to make the choice of taking huge amounts of flak from his religious community or the political community for his choices. Basically, god or country. Hopefully by running for public office a Muslim would have already made the choice for country.
yeah
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| Re: Why did you vote for Obama? [message #361222 is a reply to message #357510] |
Wed, 03 December 2008 12:58 |
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As you said, the person is going to make a choice, faith or country. Even if they chose to run for office with faith in mind, their stance on issues is still what's important and not the faith. If they are going to follow their faith, their stance on the issues will show it.
The only thing looking at their faith does is give you the chance to assume what their stance on issues may be. However, that may not prove to be accurate.
Libertarian Party | The King's Throne | The Soda Shop
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| Re: Why did you vote for Obama? [message #361277 is a reply to message #361182] |
Wed, 03 December 2008 22:00 |
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GoArmy44
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| Frontier Psychiatrist wrote on Wed, 03 December 2008 06:27 |
| GoArmy44 wrote on Tue, 02 December 2008 22:43 |
| Spoony wrote on Sun, 30 November 2008 09:18 |
| cheesesoda wrote on Sat, 29 November 2008 14:11 |
No, they're not real Americans. They're American citizens, but they've abandoned most of everything America was founded on.
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If America was "founded on" democracy, then it sounds like you're the one who's done that. Y'know, the principle that you're allowed to choose for yourself which criteria to think about when casting your vote?
Tell me, if you watched an interview and a candidate was asked which book they found most inspirational and uplifting, and they said Mein Kampf, would it be unfair to take that into account? No? Then why not if the book was the Qu'ran, which - let's be honest - makes Mein Kampf look downright moderate?
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We weren't established as a democracy but a republic. As Chief Justice John Marshall said in Marbury v. Madison "the United States has been emphatically termed a government of laws, and not of men."
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And who made the laws?
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Men, they are man's law, but the law rules, and not the man. No man is above the law.
Reconcilia Rem Publicam!
[Updated on: Wed, 03 December 2008 22:01] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Why did you vote for Obama? [message #361318 is a reply to message #361202] |
Thu, 04 December 2008 06:40 |
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Spoony
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| cheesesoda wrote on Wed, 03 December 2008 10:49 |
That doesn't mean, however, that there are no sane Christians deserving of a vote.
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Yes, just as there are some atheists who are quite simply bad people, but there's a big difference between the two. If an atheist is bad it's nothing to do with atheism one way or the other, whereas when a religious person is good (I'm generalising with the Abrahamics here) it's not so much because of their religion as despite it. Like u6795 says, "god or country", the key word being "or". In most of these religious debates I've been involved with lately, I've found myself pointing out that morality and religion are like oil and water; one floats to the top. With the religious people I tend to argue with, it's usually religion at the expense of morality.
You know that saying we keep hearing: "not all Muslims are terrorists, but most terrorists are Muslims". well, it all sounds very enlightened but it isn't. A little more thought into it shows you the fallacy. If you show me a Muslim who isn't a terrorist, it's more a case of them not really being a Muslim.
Unleash the Renerageâ„¢
Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
- noun
1. the inevitable criticism one receives after doing something awful
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| Re: Why did you vote for Obama? [message #361405 is a reply to message #357510] |
Thu, 04 December 2008 14:21 |
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Ryan3k
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Commander |
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Islam has been described as having "bloody borders."
From Nigeria to Sudan to Pakistan to Indonesia to the Philippines, some of the worst, most hate- driven violence in the world today is perpetrated by Muslims and in the name of Islam.
In Pakistan, Muslim extremists have attacked Christian churches, killing every parishioner they could. Just recently in Lebanon, an evangelical Christian nurse, who had devoted her life to caring for the sick, was shot three times through the head, presumably, for "proselytizing."
On the northern tier of the Islamic world, even more blood flows - in Pakistani-Kashmiri terrorism against Hindu India, Chechen terrorism in Russian-Orthodox Moscow and Palestinian terrorism against the Jews. (The Albanian Muslim campaign against Orthodox Macedonia is now on hold.) And then of course there was Sept. 11 - Islamic terrorism reaching far beyond its borders to strike at the heart of the infidel "Crusaders."
(The three previous paragraphs are actually taken from an interesting article available here. I didn't "quote" it because I figured everyone would skim by it if I did.)
A Path Beyond
[Updated on: Thu, 04 December 2008 14:22] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Why did you vote for Obama? [message #361487 is a reply to message #361385] |
Fri, 05 December 2008 01:21 |
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Spoony
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| Cabal8616 wrote on Thu, 04 December 2008 12:15 |
No offense spoony, but you're being an immensely generalizing cock.
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On the contrary; I'm very carefully distinguishing those Muslims who are prone to violence, combat against human rights and science and progress etc - from those who aren't.
When people say that lovely line "not all Muslims are terrorists", they really don't know what Islam is all about; how it started and what it commands its followers to do. Like these people, I am careful to make the distinction - but I'm a little clearer on what the distinction actually is.
Islam specifically instructs its followers to carry out violence against non-Muslims. If you're a Muslim, this is what you are commanded to do, repeatedly and unambiguously. And perhaps you don't check the news often but this instruction is being followed all over the world on a daily basis.
Don't get me wrong; when I say a "peaceful Muslim" isn't really a Muslim, it's not an insult at all. Indeed, it is a compliment.
Unleash the Renerageâ„¢
Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
- noun
1. the inevitable criticism one receives after doing something awful
[Updated on: Fri, 05 December 2008 01:43] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Why did you vote for Obama? [message #361524 is a reply to message #361218] |
Fri, 05 December 2008 07:47 |
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Ma1kel
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| u6795 wrote on Wed, 03 December 2008 15:41 |
| cheesesoda wrote on Wed, 03 December 2008 11:49 |
The vast majority of Christians believe that homosexuality is wrong, and they work tirelessly to keep Gay Marriage illegal. That doesn't mean, however, that there are no sane Christians deserving of a vote. Even if Obama is/was a Muslim, if he keeps his faith's teachings from mixing with government, then I don't see the problem.
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The thing with Islam is that it's insanely strict, so if a Muslim were elected President or any high office in America he'd be forced to make the choice of taking huge amounts of flak from his religious community or the political community for his choices. Basically, god or country. Hopefully by running for public office a Muslim would have already made the choice for country.
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Toggle SpoilerSame with Christianity and pretty much every other kind of that bullshit.
Dutch to English
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| Re: Why did you vote for Obama? [message #361543 is a reply to message #361524] |
Fri, 05 December 2008 12:38 |
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u6795
Messages: 1261
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General (1 Star) |
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| Ma1kel wrote on Fri, 05 December 2008 09:47 |
| u6795 wrote on Wed, 03 December 2008 15:41 |
| cheesesoda wrote on Wed, 03 December 2008 11:49 |
The vast majority of Christians believe that homosexuality is wrong, and they work tirelessly to keep Gay Marriage illegal. That doesn't mean, however, that there are no sane Christians deserving of a vote. Even if Obama is/was a Muslim, if he keeps his faith's teachings from mixing with government, then I don't see the problem.
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The thing with Islam is that it's insanely strict, so if a Muslim were elected President or any high office in America he'd be forced to make the choice of taking huge amounts of flak from his religious community or the political community for his choices. Basically, god or country. Hopefully by running for public office a Muslim would have already made the choice for country.
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Toggle SpoilerSame with Christianity and pretty much every other kind of that bullshit.
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Christianity is a little more lenient in many aspects than Islam (I'm in no way denying its violent past) and many of its ideals are aligned with the ideals of American politics. Probably explains why almost all (or all, I forget) of our Presidents so far have been Christian.
I think religion is evil in and of itself, though, I'm just sayin.
yeah
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| Re: Why did you vote for Obama? [message #361639 is a reply to message #361543] |
Sat, 06 December 2008 08:08 |
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Ma1kel
Messages: 956
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Location: Kingdom of the Netherland...
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| u6795 wrote on Fri, 05 December 2008 15:38 |
| Ma1kel wrote on Fri, 05 December 2008 09:47 |
| u6795 wrote on Wed, 03 December 2008 15:41 |
| cheesesoda wrote on Wed, 03 December 2008 11:49 |
The vast majority of Christians believe that homosexuality is wrong, and they work tirelessly to keep Gay Marriage illegal. That doesn't mean, however, that there are no sane Christians deserving of a vote. Even if Obama is/was a Muslim, if he keeps his faith's teachings from mixing with government, then I don't see the problem.
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The thing with Islam is that it's insanely strict, so if a Muslim were elected President or any high office in America he'd be forced to make the choice of taking huge amounts of flak from his religious community or the political community for his choices. Basically, god or country. Hopefully by running for public office a Muslim would have already made the choice for country.
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Toggle SpoilerSame with Christianity and pretty much every other kind of that bullshit.
|
Christianity is a little more lenient in many aspects than Islam (I'm in no way denying its violent past) and many of its ideals are aligned with the ideals of American politics. Probably explains why almost all (or all, I forget) of our Presidents so far have been Christian.
I think religion is evil in and of itself, though, I'm just sayin.
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They're both based on Judaism. But nobody takes christianity seriously so...
Dutch to English
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| Re: Why did you vote for Obama? [message #361641 is a reply to message #361639] |
Sat, 06 December 2008 09:00 |
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DarkKnight
Messages: 754
Registered: May 2006
Location: Cincinnati, OH
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Colonel |
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| Ma1kel wrote on Sat, 06 December 2008 09:08 |
| u6795 wrote on Fri, 05 December 2008 15:38 |
| Ma1kel wrote on Fri, 05 December 2008 09:47 |
| u6795 wrote on Wed, 03 December 2008 15:41 |
| cheesesoda wrote on Wed, 03 December 2008 11:49 |
The vast majority of Christians believe that homosexuality is wrong, and they work tirelessly to keep Gay Marriage illegal. That doesn't mean, however, that there are no sane Christians deserving of a vote. Even if Obama is/was a Muslim, if he keeps his faith's teachings from mixing with government, then I don't see the problem.
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The thing with Islam is that it's insanely strict, so if a Muslim were elected President or any high office in America he'd be forced to make the choice of taking huge amounts of flak from his religious community or the political community for his choices. Basically, god or country. Hopefully by running for public office a Muslim would have already made the choice for country.
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Toggle SpoilerSame with Christianity and pretty much every other kind of that bullshit.
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Christianity is a little more lenient in many aspects than Islam (I'm in no way denying its violent past) and many of its ideals are aligned with the ideals of American politics. Probably explains why almost all (or all, I forget) of our Presidents so far have been Christian.
I think religion is evil in and of itself, though, I'm just sayin.
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They're both based on Judaism. But nobody takes christianity seriously so...
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i guess I'm a nobody then
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