Home » General Discussions » Heated Discussions and Debates » A psychological question: "choose to believe"
| Re: A psychological question: "choose to believe" [message #444264 is a reply to message #442700] |
Thu, 24 February 2011 18:14   |
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shippo
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@ spoony
I am a Christian and I would like to try to clarify something that I think many Christians and non-Christians misunderstand. Hell is a place of torment because of the separation from God. In the Bible it doesn't say that in Hell there is fire or that Satan walks around ruling the place, it was originally designed as a place for the angels that rebelled along with Satan to be sent to, NOT for us. However, we sinned and basically doomed our selves there. Now this is the part I was trying to get at, most pp think that "God sends pp to Hell because they don't believe in him" right? Well the point the Bible tries to get across is, that we are already going there and because God is loving, he wants to prevent us from going there.
Now as far as your questions, I'm sensing that you may have ran across a lot of "street corner preachers" or "turn or burn preachers" (these are Christians who while trying to share the message, are going about it the wrong way). I do apologize if you or anyone else who is reading this, has ever run across this. Our goal I think is best stated in my paragraph above.
As far as your question on believe or not to believe, and how it is a moral dilemma, I will simply state that everyone has been given free will. You can chose to believe anything you want, our job as Christians is just to share with you what God has given to us in the Bible.
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| Re: A psychological question: "choose to believe" [message #444266 is a reply to message #444264] |
Thu, 24 February 2011 19:07 |
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Spoony
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| shippo wrote on Thu, 24 February 2011 18:14 |
Hell is a place of torment because of the separation from God.
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i don't see why that would be any kind of punishment for an atheist.
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In the Bible it doesn't say that in Hell there is fire
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it's true that the description of hell in the bible is rather vague, which may explain why you think many christians are wrong about it (as i'm sure they think you are if you say there's no fire). do you think Revelation is canonical?
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or that Satan walks around ruling the place, it was originally designed as a place for the angels that rebelled along with Satan to be sent to, NOT for us. However, we sinned and basically doomed our selves there.
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who's we?
your point seems irrelevant; you're still saying it was decided by this god of yours that we'll be sent there as a punishment, although i'm not sure what crime you're talking about. it would have to be an enormously grievous crime, wouldn't it?
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Now this is the part I was trying to get at, most pp think that "God sends pp to Hell because they don't believe in him" right? Well the point the Bible tries to get across is, that we are already going there and because God is loving, he wants to prevent us from going there.
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so why doesn't he just stop sending people there? how about this arrangement: when atheists die, that's it? cos i'd prefer that. i don't want an afterlife, certainly not one that has anything to do with the god of the bible.
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As far as your question on believe or not to believe, and how it is a moral dilemma, I will simply state that everyone has been given free will. You can chose to believe anything you want, our job as Christians is just to share with you what God has given to us in the Bible.
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did you actually read the original question in my first post? the bit where i say that belief is not a choice at all? if it is a choice in your case, then your mind works differently from mine, and apparently other peoples' too (because of the many people i've asked the question "can you choose to believe something?" the overwhelming majority said no)
finally, "given free will"? if you're given it by the whim of a dictator, it's not free. and if there's a punishment for choosing the wrong thing, then that's not free either.
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[Updated on: Thu, 24 February 2011 19:08] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: A psychological question: "choose to believe" [message #444274 is a reply to message #444273] |
Thu, 24 February 2011 22:23 |
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Spoony
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| shippo wrote on Thu, 24 February 2011 22:14 |
I'm sorry I think I may have mis-interpreted your question lol
Allright before we go on let me make sure I'm on the same page of music so to speak.
To simplify your question, basicly you are asking:
How can we realy have free choice if we are only given two options? Obey God or Disobey God and be punished?
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have you read the original post of the thread?
the question is can a person choose to believe something? it doesn't seem to me that i can. i could, if i wanted to, decide to go to church, pretend like i was enjoying myself and taking it all in, pretend to pray. but i can't decide to believe any of it. i can't decide "i will believe X and Y from now on". actions are choices; beliefs aren't.
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| Re: A psychological question: "choose to believe" [message #444296 is a reply to message #444286] |
Fri, 25 February 2011 09:06 |
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Spoony
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| shippo wrote on Fri, 25 February 2011 05:54 |
um...  of corse you can chose to believe in something.
example: There is a salesman telling me all the great things about this car. I can chose whether to believe this salesman or not.
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Well, then, I finally find someone who answers yes to the question. Your mind seems to work very differently from the overwhelming majority.
Given that the rest of us can't, does this make you reconsider the fact we'll be punished for not being the right religion? If you don't object to the fact that this negates the whole concept of freedom of religion, and if you don't object to the fact it's torture, do you at least object to the fact that we're being threatened unless we do something we can't do?
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[Updated on: Fri, 25 February 2011 09:18] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: A psychological question: "choose to believe" [message #444311 is a reply to message #444305] |
Fri, 25 February 2011 16:46 |
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Spoony
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| HaTe wrote on Fri, 25 February 2011 14:58 |
The question you proposed has nothing to do with religion, Spoony. Yet you keep bringing it up.
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It has everything to do with religion, or at least those religions which threaten us with appalling punishments if we think the wrong thing/don't think the right thing.
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You can chose to believe in something, yes.
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Rephrase that, please. You mean "I can choose to believe something"
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| Re: A psychological question: "choose to believe" [message #444315 is a reply to message #442700] |
Fri, 25 February 2011 17:33 |
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snpr1101
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The car salesman analogy to me, is not a good one. Why? Well for starters there is clearly a big difference in consequences between the two scenarios. The consequences of buying a car that has none of the attributes the salesman described and won't start are completely insignificant and minuscule in comparison to spending an eternity in hell because you refused to believe in a Religion or a God.
I realize this was just an example given in an attempt to prove that you could "choose" to believe in someone or something. However, in light of the consequences of whatever you may or may not choose to believe in, the "choice" may become a bit harder.
I think there is a difference between accepting what the car salesman says and truly 100% with all your heart believing in him. Which is silly to expect; who has such strong thoughts for what a car salesman says? Not to mention other holes like the car salesman actually being tangible at present; and knowing that you will be able to inspect the car at some point. That's why I don't like the example.
Back to the original question however - "Can somebody choose to believe".
In my opinion, we are probably capable of believing in something like a God with about 99% assurance. Why? Because with zero evidence of a supreme being existing somewhere for whatever reason in the past, during or after our lives; our logical selves (However lacking that may be in some) will always question and seek logical answers. Logical answers. Tangible proof. Not spiritual energy floating around in the cosmos. Not the warm fuzzy feeling in your chest. Not images of the great one cupping the world in his hands; something on the same plane of existence as us that we can either see, touch, feel, hear or even smell.
Speaking from experience, I 99% believed in a god when I was younger. Went to Sunday school. Went to a Christian school. When you're surrounded and intoxicated with religion 24/7; it becomes not to accept it. When an adult with authority in the eyes of a child tells an impressionable child that God exists, and all those who do not accept him into your hearts will suffer in eternity in hell; you really do not have a choice. Yet that 1% is the constant niggling doubt in your mind. Asking questions; seeking answers that eventually nobody can answer. And I think that has helped me to "see the light" as such.
So can somebody choose to believe? They probably could with the right environment. I realize it may sound like you can be forced into believing; which probably isn't a bad description. But at the end of the day, you make the decision with the stimuli you have.
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| Re: A psychological question: "choose to believe" [message #444316 is a reply to message #444296] |
Fri, 25 February 2011 17:35 |
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shippo
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| Spoony wrote on Fri, 25 February 2011 09:06 |
Given that the rest of us can't
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? what do you mean when you say "the rest of us can't"?
The rest of you can't chose to believe in someting?
| Spoony wrote on Fri, 25 February 2011 09:06 |
Given that the rest of us can't, does this make you reconsider the fact we'll be punished for not being the right religion?
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Nope
| Spoony wrote on Fri, 25 February 2011 09:06 |
If you don't object to the fact that this negates the whole concept of freedom of religion, and if you don't object to the fact it's torture, do you at least object to the fact that we're being threatened unless we do something we can't do?
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who is doing the threatening? do you mean God?
@snpr1101
| snpr1101 wrote on Fri, 25 February 2011 17:33 |
So can somebody choose to believe? They probably could with the right environment. I realize it may sound like you can be forced into believing; which probably isn't a bad description. But at the end of the day, you make the decision with the stimuli you have.
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sounds reasonable, but what about this:
I am a Corpsman in the US Navy, I am a christian, and yet I am surounded by 90% non christians. how does that work?
[Updated on: Fri, 25 February 2011 17:44] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: A psychological question: "choose to believe" [message #444318 is a reply to message #444316] |
Fri, 25 February 2011 18:58 |
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Spoony
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| shippo wrote on Fri, 25 February 2011 17:35 |
? what do you mean when you say "the rest of us can't"?
The rest of you can't chose to believe in someting?
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I don't want to sound rude, but it seems like you just aren't reading what the other people in the conversation are saying.
Yes, my original question was whether people can decide to believe something (doesn't matter what it is for the purposes of the question; it's just a question of how the human mind works)
if you say yes then your mind works differently to mine, simple as that. i cannot make a decision to believe something. i could choose go to church and bow my head in prayer and sing the hymns etc... but what i can't choose to do is instruct my mind what to believe. i can control my actions, but not my beliefs.
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| Spoony wrote on Fri, 25 February 2011 09:06 |
Given that the rest of us can't, does this make you reconsider the fact we'll be punished for not being the right religion?
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Nope
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well, there you go. the prospect of people being tortured forever as punishment for not being the right religion doesn't bother you at all? either you don't really believe it either or you don't have any human compassion (i think i know which one it is)
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| Spoony wrote on Fri, 25 February 2011 09:06 |
If you don't object to the fact that this negates the whole concept of freedom of religion, and if you don't object to the fact it's torture, do you at least object to the fact that we're being threatened unless we do something we can't do?
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who is doing the threatening? do you mean God?
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Christians/Christianity. The religion and its adherents say it. I am inclined to think it is not actually true, but this doesn't make it OK to make the threat anymore than it's acceptable to mug someone with a fake gun.
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| snpr1101 wrote on Fri, 25 February 2011 17:33 |
So can somebody choose to believe? They probably could with the right environment. I realize it may sound like you can be forced into believing; which probably isn't a bad description. But at the end of the day, you make the decision with the stimuli you have.
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sounds reasonable, but what about this:
I am a Corpsman in the US Navy, I am a christian, and yet I am surounded by 90% non christians. how does that work?
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Did you have a "religious upbringing", i.e. what was the attitude of your parents and your school (two different questions, obviously) in regard to religion?
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| Re: A psychological question: "choose to believe" [message #444338 is a reply to message #444318] |
Sat, 26 February 2011 08:57 |
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shippo
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| Spoony wrote on Fri, 25 February 2011 18:58 |
if you say yes then your mind works differently to mine, simple as that. i cannot make a decision to believe something. i could choose go to church and bow my head in prayer and sing the hymns etc... but what i can't choose to do is instruct my mind what to believe. i can control my actions, but not my beliefs.
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I do apologize if I am just not reading it right. I guess to put my view of it simply, I can choose to instruct my body to do things, but I can also chose what I will believe in, and what I will not to believe in.
| Spoony wrote on Fri, 25 February 2011 18:58 |
well, there you go. the prospect of people being tortured forever as punishment for not being the right religion doesn't bother you at all? either you don't really believe it either or you don't have any human compassion (i think i know which one it is)
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actually it is because we as christians view it differently than most non-Christians. Like I said earlier, we nor God are here to punish,or send you anywere, all we want to do is say "this is the way".
| Spoony wrote on Fri, 25 February 2011 18:58 |
Christians/Christianity. The religion and its adherents say it. I am inclined to think it is not actually true, but this doesn't make it OK to make the threat anymore than it's acceptable to mug someone with a fake gun.
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Let me throw this at you: says who? if you don't believe in any religion or god, what is the basis of your moral values?
| snpr1101 wrote on Fri, 25 February 2011 17:33 |
you have a "religious upbringing", i.e. what was the attitude of your parents and your school (two different questions, obviously) in regard to religion?
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Yes I did. I was rased in a christian home. As far as school, I went to a public school untill second grade. my sister was being homeschoold by my mom because she was geting into trouble in highschool I saw what they did and I wanted to give that a try. and I liked it. now if you ask what did you do for friends, we had alot of other homeschoold families that i would visit and I also had alot of friends at church.
so ya I guess it does have alot to do with how you were raised, but i also believe it is based on the child's personality as well.
also you stated about if i had proof of God's exsistance to share, well I do but it will take us down the path of Evolution vs Creation, so don't know if we should make another topic for that.
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| Re: A psychological question: "choose to believe" [message #444344 is a reply to message #442700] |
Sat, 26 February 2011 12:14 |
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Altzan
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And to think I just watched a kid's show that said you don't have to understand something to believe in it.
And it specifically stated that "you just have to choose to believe."
I cannot imagine how the clockwork of the universe can exist without a clockmaker. ~Voltaire
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| Re: A psychological question: "choose to believe" [message #444346 is a reply to message #444338] |
Sat, 26 February 2011 13:39 |
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Spoony
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| shippo wrote on Sat, 26 February 2011 08:57 |
| Spoony wrote on Fri, 25 February 2011 18:58 |
if you say yes then your mind works differently to mine, simple as that. i cannot make a decision to believe something. i could choose go to church and bow my head in prayer and sing the hymns etc... but what i can't choose to do is instruct my mind what to believe. i can control my actions, but not my beliefs.
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I do apologize if I am just not reading it right. I guess to put my view of it simply, I can choose to instruct my body to do things, but I can also chose what I will believe in, and what I will not to believe in.
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so, like i said, your mind works differently to mine.
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| Spoony wrote on Fri, 25 February 2011 18:58 |
well, there you go. the prospect of people being tortured forever as punishment for not being the right religion doesn't bother you at all? either you don't really believe it either or you don't have any human compassion (i think i know which one it is)
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actually it is because we as christians view it differently than most non-Christians. Like I said earlier, we nor God are here to punish,or send you anywere, all we want to do is say "this is the way".
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...and threaten everlasting torture if we don't believe it or don't like it?
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| Spoony wrote on Fri, 25 February 2011 18:58 |
Christians/Christianity. The religion and its adherents say it. I am inclined to think it is not actually true, but this doesn't make it OK to make the threat anymore than it's acceptable to mug someone with a fake gun.
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Let me throw this at you: says who? if you don't believe in any religion or god, what is the basis of your moral values?
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that's a waste of a question. you might as well ask: if you don't eat at mcdonalds, where on earth do you get your food from? it hasn't yet been established that food can only come from mcdonalds.
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| snpr1101 wrote on Fri, 25 February 2011 17:33 |
you have a "religious upbringing", i.e. what was the attitude of your parents and your school (two different questions, obviously) in regard to religion?
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Yes I did. I was rased in a christian home.
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thought so. that's why it doesn't matter that you say your adult colleagues in the Navy are mostly atheists; religion's main target audience is children, as well as old/sick/dying people.
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also you stated about if i had proof of God's exsistance to share, well I do but it will take us down the path of Evolution vs Creation, so don't know if we should make another topic for that.
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if you think you can prove the existence of a god, i encourage you to have a crack at it. by all means start another thread. but then you'll also have the task of proving the truth of one particular religion, surely? i.e. proving not just that this god of yours exists, but that you know quite a few details about that god. christianity isn't just believing in a god, is it? you have to believe a lot of stuff about what that god wants, you have to believe a lot of stuff about jesus, etc.
and if you can do THAT, we'll still have the moral question. if this god of yours really is real, and the bible is an accurate depiction, that wouldn't be enough for me to become a christian.
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| Re: A psychological question: "choose to believe" [message #444353 is a reply to message #444338] |
Sat, 26 February 2011 18:53 |
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Starbuzzz
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| shippo wrote on Sat, 26 February 2011 08:57 |
Yes I did. I was rased in a christian home. As far as school, I went to a public school untill second grade. my sister was being homeschoold by my mom because she was geting into trouble in highschool I saw what they did and I wanted to give that a try. and I liked it. now if you ask what did you do for friends, we had alot of other homeschoold families that i would visit and I also had alot of friends at church.
so ya I guess it does have alot to do with how you were raised, but i also believe it is based on the child's personality as well.
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shippo, can you please clarify what you mean by the part I highlighted in orange? What exactly do you mean by a "child's personality" playing a role in the process? just curious
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| Re: A psychological question: "choose to believe" [message #444384 is a reply to message #444364] |
Sun, 27 February 2011 11:55 |
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HaTe
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So I shouldn't believe that there isn't poison in my food? I do believe that there isn't....and yes, Spoony. Everything is a choice, and everything has alternative choices. I can choose to either believe my food is poisoned, or not to. I choose to not to. It's both a belief and a choice.
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What is not known surely cannot be believed?
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That makes no sense whatsoever. Beliefs aren't based solely on facts, but opinions as well. God is the best example....I may not KNOW he is real, but I can still very much so believe he is.
‘All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing’ - Edmund Burke
[Updated on: Sun, 27 February 2011 14:15] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: A psychological question: "choose to believe" [message #444395 is a reply to message #444384] |
Sun, 27 February 2011 15:05 |
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snpr1101
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| HaTe wrote on Sun, 27 February 2011 11:55 |
So I shouldn't believe that there isn't poison in my food? I do believe that there isn't....and yes, Spoony. Everything is a choice, and everything has alternative choices. I can choose to either believe my food is poisoned, or not to. I choose to not to. It's both a belief and a choice.
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What is not known surely cannot be believed?
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That makes no sense whatsoever. Beliefs aren't based solely on facts, but opinions as well. God is the best example....I may not KNOW he is real, but I can still very much so believe he is.
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This confuses me. I've always thought that actually knowing that whatever you're believing in is actually real or factual was a pre-requisite to "believing". Maybe it isn't. Maybe people are deceived as such. Maybe people don't require to know before believing; which I find hard to understand. Where is the line drawn between accepting what someone says, and actually believing them?
I dunno, this is getting too muddled for me. I can't understand the logic behind it. If I tell you x existed, but I had no evidence whatsoever to support it, then what information do you have to warrant belief other than this might end up being beneficial to you? (I.e, Heaven yayy!) I can't think in such a way.
So by the looks of it, the answer to the OP is lookings towards, yes, you probably could choose to believe; no matter how misinformed you may be.
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