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| Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests [message #466205 is a reply to message #466158] |
Sun, 15 April 2012 23:52   |
eatcow
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Why do people keep trying to argue about Christianity when they are ignorant of various subjects they are discussing...
The 2nd council of Nicaea was called in response to a group of heretics who thought it was wrong to venerate statues and images. This explains the art aspect.
In regards to the Bible, the 1st council had nothing to do with that instead its main goal was fighting another heresy, the Arians. The key point almost every council was called in response to a heresy that was contrary to what the Church was teaching and the Church fine tuning what it is the Church means with her various dogmas. You are right that the canon of the Bible was not finalized till the 4th century, but near the end and it was a series of councils that all drew up the same list.
The key in regards to spoony and my final paragraph is this, he opened the subject for debate. He made a claim and I asked him to back it up.
There is a large group of scientists who believed in God, and a lot who were Catholic. Kepler, Einstein, Newton, Boyle, Faraday, Kelvin, and Planck all believed in the existence of God and/or were Christian.
Here is a list of some Catholic scientists:
http://www.catholicbook.com/AgredaCD/MyCatholicFaith/mcfc014a.htm
Giordano Bruno was persecuted for theological differences, not his scientific views.
Galileo was brought up before the court for teaching heliocentricity because he was teaching it as truth instead of a conjecture. He had no solid arguments to support the view so he used the Bible to support his views and this was what made the Church angry considering the mess Protestants created with their theological position of sola scriptura.
Key point: Bruno and Galileo were brought up before the church for theological matters.
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| Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests [message #466215 is a reply to message #466205] |
Mon, 16 April 2012 03:04 |
Major-Payne
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| eatcow wrote on Sun, 15 April 2012 23:52 |
Why do people keep trying to argue about Christianity when they are ignorant of various subjects they are discussing...
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LOLOL WUT
Dude.
Fucking lol.
Early christianity was one of my specialities early in uni (back when I was still a student of archaeology). Don't call me ignorant.
Read the following articles then get back to me.
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"A brief history of Western Philosophy" by Anthony Kenny, revised edition 2005, page 99 to 131, chapters "Early Christian Philosophy" and "Early Medieval Philosophy"
"Religions of the Hellenistic-Roman Age" by Antionia Tripolitis", 2002, page 91 to 118, "Christianity"
"Christianity, an introduction" by Alister E. McGrath, Second edition 2006. Read the whole book, its only about 350 pages, so a pretty light read
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| eatcow wrote on Sun, 15 April 2012 23:52 |
Why do people keep trying to argue about Christianity when they are ignorant of various subjects they are discussing... bla bla bla nonsensical bullshit about the councils
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Fucking lol. Just lol.
To illustrate how wrong you are.
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The 2nd council of Nicaea was called in response to a group of heretics who thought it was wrong to venerate statues and images. This explains the art aspect.
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The use of imagery and symbolism was actually discouraged by an earlier christian council (at Hieria), about 350 bishops in all, organized by the Byzantine emperor. Due to wars with the arabs, not all the patriarchs were present, which made the decisions pretty easy to dispute.
The council of Nicaea II sought to reverse this decision, even though they had as little authority as the Hierian council, since the patriarchs were absent, just as at Hieria. Only at Nicaea II were the decisions at Hieria deemed to be heretical decisions.
You make it seem as if the council gathered with the pre-existing notion that the edicts of leo and his son were heretical, which is completely untrue.
It's all part of the big illusion that we perpetuate on ourselves and in turn is perpetuated upon us. When we believe, we engage the illusion. When we stop believing we shatter the illusion and shatter ourselves in the process. Because we are, part of it.
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| Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests [message #466229 is a reply to message #442568] |
Mon, 16 April 2012 07:14 |
Major-Payne
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Kinda hard to work in your specialized field when your dig site is in a country that's in the middle of a civil war
It's all part of the big illusion that we perpetuate on ourselves and in turn is perpetuated upon us. When we believe, we engage the illusion. When we stop believing we shatter the illusion and shatter ourselves in the process. Because we are, part of it.
[Updated on: Mon, 16 April 2012 07:14] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests [message #466283 is a reply to message #466205] |
Tue, 17 April 2012 13:38 |
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Spoony
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| eatcow wrote |
Spoony, you only reveal your ignorance of Christians. A source that gives a very detailed account of Jesus is the one you quoted in asking where is one.
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I've asked you five or six times to provide a single good source for the remarkably specifically detailed version of events you gave regarding the disposal of Jesus' body. Everyone reading this thread can see me asking you over and over again, and can see you dodging it over and over again.
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Another key thing your ignorant of, if you are of a different religion and did not come to Catholicism, this does not necessary mean your going to hell. If someone is wicked, most likely they are. If they are a good humble person, regardless of religion, it is possible to go to heaven.
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Prove it.
Go on, prove it. You claim you know a single damn thing about the afterlife? Prove it. Even claiming that there is an afterlife at all is an extraordinary claim. Prove it. Then go on to prove that you know its nature, and who's going where.
Don't dodge this one, like you did with the resurrection business. Prove it or admit you can't prove it.
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If the person comes to an intellectual understanding of God and chooses to reject Him, then they are going to hell.
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Well. I asked you two questions about hell:
stop beating around the bush. two questions:
1. are people who are not the right religion going to be tortured for it
2. is that a good thing
You just answered the first one. Well done. Have a crack at number two. You just said that yes, people can and will be horribly tortured for not being the right religion. Well then, do you think that's a good thing? I won't necessarily assume the answer is yes just because you worship the god who you think is in charge of this thing. I'll give you the chance to say for yourself whether you think this god of yours is doing the right or wrong thing: sending people to be tortured if they are not the right religion.
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This is the only thing you can say because you have no other argument to offer.
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And yet anyone reading this thread can see me make quite a few points you obviously couldn't answer.
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The only thing you have been able to demonstrate is hate.
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Oh, please. If you think you're on the wrong end of hate right now, I have good news for you: you've never experienced hate. Consider yourself fortunate.
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You read an argument, and dismiss it as stupid. That is not honesty.
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Your arguments were stupid. Get over it. Don't call me dishonest because you said something stupid and I called it stupid.
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Any person in love and pursuit of truth would debate the various points.
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We saw a page or two ago that you don't know what love is. Remember? You were using the word "love" to describe your god's torture chamber.
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You disregard it simply because the implications you do not like and want to not agree with it.
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You're a damn fool.
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The best argument for God to you specifically is you yourself. You haven proven to be a miserable hateful individual without Him.
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Do you really want to say that that's the best argument? This is the internet. You can't know too much about how "miserable" or "hateful" I am; you can only judge by my posts themselves, which are neither miserable nor hateful. If you want to assume I am both of those things personally, in spite of my posts, I suppose you may. But you must realise it's damaging to your own position to say that it's the best you've got, surely?
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Atheists can still love, the negation is not what I am implying. But for you, what good is a love that is so tainted by hatred and is miserable? What good is your miserableness when you know there is something better.
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...you're saying I know there really is a god?
if so, you'd have to be a bit more specific than that; you're not talking about Zeus - for example - are you. If so, what you're really saying is "you know this specific God and the details about him is real", isn't it?
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If you were honest with yourself, then you would be honest with the world. Haters gonna hate until the day they break out of that shell and look back and wonder how could they be so depraved.
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Take my advice and lay off the rhetoric, you aren't any good at it.
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If a child did not know their parents, do you honestly think that the parents would just throw them into the fire and hypocritically call that love? If a child knew their parents, but disowned them. When the child came back seeking forgiveness, do you honestly think that the parents would throw him into the fire and hypocritically call that love also?
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No, I don't think a powerful creature throwing a weaker creature into a fire should be considered an act of love. I don't think a scenario could ever be found where an adult throwing a living child into a fire would be just at all, and yet this is the analogy you selected.
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| Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests [message #466667 is a reply to message #466283] |
Wed, 25 April 2012 15:50 |
fredcow9
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Ill entertain you spoony since its been too long.
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I've asked you five or six times to provide a single good source for the remarkably specifically detailed version of events you gave regarding the disposal of Jesus' body. Everyone reading this thread can see me asking you over and over again, and can see you dodging it over and over again.
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Im not so sure if any outside sources other than the gospels document "detailed events" of the disposal of his body. However, the gospels can be trusted as to the details of his life, death and resurrection and here is why:
You have biblical sources (the gospels) then you have non biblical sources of course. The gospels in a nutshell do not contradict secular history and were written anywhere from 10-40 years after Christs death depending on the letter/gospel you refer to. We know from the writings themselves and based on what they reference that several were written before the temple destruction and some were written after. This is a fact and I would be quite enthralled to see anyone prove otherwise.
The outsides sources are explained now
here we discuss Flavious Josephus and I will be quotting from a website that did provide accurate details here, if you question the source you will be up to the task of disproving them with another source.
"Josephus was a Jewish historian who was born around AD 38. He served Roman commander Vespasian in Jerusalem until the city's destruction in AD 70. Josephus personally believed Vespasian to be Israel's promised Messiah. When Vespasian later became emperor of Rome, Josephus served under him as court historian. 2 In AD 93, Josephus finished his work Antiquities of the Jews in which at least three passages specifically confirm portions of Scripture:"
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But to some of the Jews the destruction of Herod's army seemed to be divine vengeance, and certainly a just vengeance, for his treatment of John, surnamed the Baptist. For Herod had put him to death, though he was a good man and had exhorted the Jews to lead righteous lives, to practice justice towards their fellows and piety towards God, and so doing to join in baptism
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compare this to
Luke 9:7-9
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7 Now Herod the tetrarch heard about all that was going on. And he was perplexed because some were saying that John had been raised from the dead, 8 others that Elijah had appeared, and still others that one of the prophets of long ago had come back to life. 9 But Herod said, "I beheaded John. Who, then, is this I hear such things about?" And he tried to see him.
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Mat 4:12
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Now when Jesus heard that John had been put in prison, He departed to Galilee.
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Mark 1:14
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Now after John was arrested, Jesus dcame into Galilee, proclaiming the gospel of God, 15 and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and fthe kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.
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Jesus was baptized by John and this is entirely supported through all the gospels. If you need those scriptures I can post em.
More on Josephus:
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...convened the judges of the Sanhedrin and brought before them a man named James, the brother of Jesus who was called the Christ, and certain others. He accused them of having transgressed the law and delivered them up to be stoned.
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in scripture:
Mark 6:3
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Isn't this the carpenter? Isn't this Mary's son and the brother of James, Joseph, Judas and Simon? Aren't his sisters here with us?" And they took offense at him.
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Galatians 1:19
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I saw none of the other apostles--only James, the Lord's brother.
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More Josephus
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At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. And his conduct was good, and [he] was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive;...
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Now I certainly do not have to post the scriptures coinciding with this do I?
PLINIUS SECUNDUS:
quick background
"Pliny was the governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor. Much of his correspondence has survived including a particular letter written circa AD 112 to the Roman emperor Trajan. This letter does not reference Christ directly, but it does establish several beliefs and practices of early Christians. This includes their loyalty to Christ even when it cost them their lives."
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In the meantime, the method I have observed towards those who have been denounced to me as Christians is this: I interrogated them whether they were in fact Christians; if they confessed it, I repeated the question twice, adding the threat of capital punishment; if they still persevered, I ordered them to be executed.
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Hopefully that helps you see the extreme threat to a simple belief system that if it was a hoax couldnt possibly survive...
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...They affirmed, however, that the whole of their guilt, or their error, was that they were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to perform any wicked deed, never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to make it good; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food - but food of an ordinary and innocent kind
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These are all in line with Jesus teachings, no one else came around teaching these things and I highly doubt everyone would be gathering around singing to Christ even under penalty of death if he wasnt even real...
CORNELIUS TACITUS
"Tacitus was a senator under Emperor Vespasian and later became governor of Asia. Around AD 116 in his work entitled Annals, he wrote of Emperor Nero and a fire which had swept Rome in AD 64"
as here
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Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilate, and a most mischievous superstition thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome...
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I always was found of tiberius given tiberium lol
GAIUS SUETONIUS TRANQUILLAS
"Suetonius was a chief secretary to Emperor Hadrian writing around AD 120 in his work Life of Claudius"
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Because the Jews at Rome caused continuous disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he expelled them from the city
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Christ was king of the Jews, the populace called them christians, its not unreasonable to assume hes referring to the christians here.
LUCIAN
"Lucian, the Greek satirist, wrote this rather scathing attack in The Death of Peregrine circa AD 170"
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The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day - the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account... You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed upon them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws
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THE TALMUD
"The Talmud is essentially the collection of Jewish oral traditions that were put into writing with additional commentary between the years of AD 70 and 200. From the Babylonian Talmud, Sanhedrin 43a includes"
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On the eve of Passover they hanged Yeshu. And an announcer went out, in front of him, for forty days (saying): 'He is going to be stoned because he practiced sorcery and enticed and led Israel astray. Anyone who knows anything in his favor, let him come and plead in his behalf.' But, not having found anything in his favor, they hanged him on the eve of the Passover.
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Yeshu is another name for Jesus in case you didnt know.
You can go here to read it in the orig: http://www.provethebible.net/T2-Divin/D-0201.htm but I pretty much outlined everything for you here. Its quite undeniable that Jesus at the very least existed as a person. The fact the gospels align with these other writings is quite amazing, it shows that the things of Jesus were quite common knowledge for people in that area. The apostles didnt have an internet or public distribution center for their writings so its impossible for them to have based their writings on the gospel accounts and vice versa. Its always come down to if you belive hes the Christ he claimed to be. People will always deny he was, even the high priests of the Jews at the time did and continued to do so. The fact Christianity spread so rapidly and quickly, still surviving to today and its given history really stands testimony enough that the gospel writers are not lying, people acknowledged a man Christ had died and rose from the grave otherwise others in the time period would have written about the lunacy of all these christians worshiping a man that never existed.
since I just jumped in here, Im not going to answer the rest of your posts aimed at that guy of course unless you wish me to. I wont be dodging anything, as I expect you not to either.
EDIT: just wanted to add to this already long post what happened to the disciples and their associates.
Matthew - killed by stabbing as ordered by King Hircanus
James, son of Alphaeous - crucified
James, brother of Jesus - thrown down from a height, stoned and then beaten to death at the hands of Ananias (circa AD 66)
John - tortured by boiling oil, exiled to Patmos in AD 95
Mark - burned during Roman emperor Trajan's reign
Peter - crucified upside-down by the gardens of Nero on the Vatican hill circa AD 64
Andrew - crucified on an "X" shaped cross by Aegeas, governor of the Edessenes, around AD 80
Philip - stoned and crucified in Hierapolis, Phrygia
Simon - crucified in Egypt under Trajan's reign
Thomas - death by spear thrust in Calamina, India
Thaddaeous - killed by arrows
James, son of Zebedee - killed by sword in AD 44 by order of King Herod Agrippa I of Judea
Bartholomew - beaten, flayed alive, crucified upside down, then beheaded
^Find me in history ANY religion that claimed that God was in human form, walked amongst them, did not foribly take over or preach through force, written about by the sources of said religion and outside sources wrote and corroborate their story of the "god" that walked among them, the founders of said religion were also tormented and died still claiming that their "god" was god, in such ways as pointed out above and grew rapidly lasting to even this day.
[Updated on: Wed, 25 April 2012 15:57] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests [message #466673 is a reply to message #466667] |
Wed, 25 April 2012 18:36 |
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Spoony
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firstly, do you still think the following:
1. people who preach a different religion deserve to be killed
2. it is permissible to deliberately slaughter children to frighten the adults in their society
3. people who are not convinced in the truth of your religion deserve to be tortured
if you've changed your mind on the positions you previously held, i'll be interested to hear why
i've already responded to the crap from josephus etc, go back a page or two. eatcow couldn't come up with a single contemporary account of jesus' life; perhaps you can succeed where he failed? nothing you said in that post qualifies. written way too late, and would be unimpressive if true.
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| Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests [message #466685 is a reply to message #466673] |
Thu, 26 April 2012 05:38 |
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Jerad2142
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| Spoony wrote on Wed, 25 April 2012 19:36 |
1. people who preach a different religion deserve to be killed
2. it is permissible to deliberately slaughter children to frighten the adults in their society
3. people who are not convinced in the truth of your religion deserve to be tortured
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I am 100% sure there is at least 1 athiest out there that believes all of those things. (Removing the word 'different' from 1 obviously, and adding the words 'lack of' between your and religion in 3).
There are nuts on both sides of the coin, and I'm sure if religion didn't exist they'd find some other reason to kill people.
[Updated on: Thu, 26 April 2012 05:44] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests [message #466699 is a reply to message #466673] |
Thu, 26 April 2012 09:51 |
fredcow9
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| Spoony wrote on Wed, 25 April 2012 18:36 |
firstly, do you still think the following:
1. people who preach a different religion deserve to be killed
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Never felt this way, I think its something you just assumed from talking about the israelites trip back to Canaan. If we are talking the afterlife and eternal torment? of course. If God is assumed to exist and made man ect, he would obviously have some sort or interaction with him. Why should those that didnt believe get the same fate as those who were tormented on earth and did believe.
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2. it is permissible to deliberately slaughter children to frighten the adults in their society
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This tatic isnt even in the bible but I never felt this way to begin with. Im not so sure what reference of killing children to frighten adults in society would be tbh.
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3. people who are not convinced in the truth of your religion deserve to be tortured
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ah I guess my answer to question 1 falls under this category. the relevance of my being ok with it is kind of moot although I am. Whats really relevant about this question is if thats the case and you are fully aware the christian God would do this then what is your excuse for not believing? (just hypothetically of course)
i've already responded to the crap from josephus etc, go back a page or two. eatcow couldn't come up with a single contemporary account of jesus' life; perhaps you can succeed where he failed? nothing you said in that post qualifies. written way too late, and would be unimpressive if true.[/quote]
Titus Flavius Josephus (37 – c. 100) - notice the recurring theme here? yet another source the best you can say of whom is that he is repeating what he'd heard.
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and what is he repeating? this is the passage which most people think has been tampered with; maybe you're in the minority who thinks it hasn't? and the only unusual thing in the passage is that he had followers who considered him miraculous. given the time and place, i'm being generous when i call that unusual.
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This is more than what he heard, its what he was made well aware of and felt important enough to include in his history writings. Do you think the government at the time for whom he worked (you do know he worked for the romans) would have accepted an account based on "what he heard"...
If you think its been tampered with, what era did this occur? Who did the tampering or at least who had the most to gain by digging into his writings and changing the originals? Jesus died at 33 years of age. Josephus wrote these things 4 years after min. They coincide with the writings of tacitus who wrote during Christ life up to about the 40s ad. I will need some evidence for all these claims your making here.
Heres what you NEED to dispute. Christ lived amoungst and showed himself to many peoples. thousands at times. He was rejected by the Jewish authority at the time and his life was pretty much constantly being sought out by them. The apostles lived with broke bread with slept and did everything with Jesus. If your looking for an eyewitness account they are the best ones your going to get. Note all the apostles were Jews and also note the ways in which they died as I stated above.
What in secular history DISCOUNTS the writings of Jesus, where are the contradictions of secular writings at the time e.g A man named Jesus existed, claimed to be the king of the Jews, he was killed and the Christians foolishly went around claiming he rose again kind of thing.
What is your biggest distrust in the gospels? assume they have no motive. what is their biggest error?
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| Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests [message #466703 is a reply to message #466699] |
Thu, 26 April 2012 11:01 |
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Spoony
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| fredcow9 wrote on Thu, 26 April 2012 09:51 |
| Spoony wrote on Wed, 25 April 2012 18:36 |
firstly, do you still think the following:
1. people who preach a different religion deserve to be killed
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Never felt this way
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Spoony: so you're ok with the instruction for genocide if another town worships another god, or the instruction of what to do if a friend or family member tries to tell you about a different religion?
Fredcow: you said earlier that the punishment hell was an unbearable one and yet if someone comes along false preaching to try to entrap you in hell then he doesnt deserve death? yet thats what hes trying to get you is eternal death and torment.
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2. it is permissible to deliberately slaughter children to frighten the adults in their society
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This tatic isnt even in the bible but I never felt this way to begin with. Im not so sure what reference of killing children to frighten adults in society would be tbh.
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Toggle SpoilerSpoony: god murders the egyptian firstborn. of what crime is every single one of these children guilty that would justify their death? and why does it make sense to murder these children, as opposed to... say... the pharaoh who keeps the slaves and won't let them go?
firstly, i have asked you to demonstrate that the innumerable victims of your god were all guilty - look at my previous post. the egyptian firstborn, for example, what crime did they commit?
secondly, it would still qualify as genocide if they were all guilty.
while we're on the subject of you trying to explain away the more despicable parts in the bible, how about the egyptian firstborn? god kills all the firstborn of egypt. what is your way of explaining why this is not the sickening genocide of innocent children it appears to be?
^^ took me quite a few posts before you had a go at replying
Fredcow: The egyptian story is an ultimatum, stop holding my people as slaves or ill put your people through so much misery youll regret it. now if your thinking that all these first borns have hell fire to answer to after their death thats probably not the case, and i actually imagine that the truly innocent in a case like that are dealt with accordingly. do i know for sure? nah. again these are all cases where people are warned in advance they just dont listen.
Spoony: nothing here, absolutely nothing, mitigates the fact that the punishment is the indiscriminate genocide of innocent children. it doesn't make a damn bit of difference what the pharaoh did or how many times he was threatened. if the story said that god killed the pharaoh, you wouldn't hear any objection from me. what's more, i think it'd be more likely to work. the pharaoh's already ignored like 10 warnings, right? and there's been all sorts of punishment on his people. we've already seen that the pharaoh doesn't seem to care about his people suffering. threaten him personally and you might get a result.
Fredcow: well then i guess we have to agree to disagree because obviously if you have read entirely and understand the bible to what you believe would be your own understanding then theres nothing I can do, you either see something like the egyptian story as an example of why people should listen to God or you see it as a mass genocide against the innocent regardless of the details
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3. people who are not convinced in the truth of your religion deserve to be tortured
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ah I guess my answer to question 1 falls under this category. the relevance of my being ok with it is kind of moot although I am. Whats really relevant about this question is if thats the case and you are fully aware the christian God would do this then what is your excuse for not believing? (just hypothetically of course)
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i've already gone over the quite major problems with the concept of hell, the system of torture for not being the right religion that you have repeatedly defended. you had no response to any of them. shall i repeat them?
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This is more than what he heard, its what he was made well aware of and felt important enough to include in his history writings.
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Not important enough to believe it himself, though
This is a Jewish man, apparently quite devout. He believes in Yahweh and the Jewish concept of an oncoming messiah (he thought it was some other guy at one point)... and he obviously didn't think Jesus was it.
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Do you think the government at the time for whom he worked (you do know he worked for the romans) would have accepted an account based on "what he heard"...
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easy tiger, i just asserted that he is not a contemporary of jesus. you can't seem to find any, can you?
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If you think its been tampered with, what era did this occur? Who did the tampering or at least who had the most to gain by digging into his writings and changing the originals?
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus#Arguments_challenging_authenticit y
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Jesus died at 33 years of age. Josephus wrote these things 4 years after min.
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much, much later than that. josephus wasn't even born until after jesus is supposed to have died. he probably wrote this stuff half a century or so after jesus was supposed to have been crucified.
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They coincide with the writings of tacitus who wrote during Christ life up to about the 40s ad.
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eh? Publius (or Gaius) Cornelius Tacitus (AD 56 – AD 117)? that Tacitus?
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Heres what you NEED to dispute. Christ lived amoungst and showed himself to many peoples. thousands at times. He was rejected by the Jewish authority at the time and his life was pretty much constantly being sought out by them.
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Suppose for a moment that this was true. Why do you think this helps your case? The Jewish authorities of the time - men who believed in God and believed in the messiah - they'd been propagating the messiah concept for centuries - did not think Jesus was it. And they were so angry that they wanted him silenced, and even killed. This helps your case? Really? If Jesus really was doing miracles and whatnot, they would have accepted him as the messiah. They didn't. What say you to that? You think the Jewish authorities simply didn't know he was the messiah? Or you think they purposely had the messiah killed, which would have to be pretty fucking brave of them given what they believed about Yahweh in the old testament? (the god of the old testament kills people all the time for, like, nothing. what would he do to people who killed the messiah?)
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The apostles lived with broke bread with slept and did everything with Jesus. If your looking for an eyewitness account they are the best ones your going to get.
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It's true you can't seem to come up with a better one, discounting the Jewish authorities themselves. Or are they not eyewitnesses?
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What is your biggest distrust in the gospels? assume they have no motive. what is their biggest error?
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....just the gospels or the whole bible?
quick summary
1. i don't believe any of the supernatural bullshit (including the existence of a god or the supernatural nature of Jesus). if it turned out that there really was a guy called jesus who did some preaching and got crucified, so what? really was a
2. it obviously has nothing to teach me about morality. the good stuff i already knew, the bad stuff is - well, bad.
3. following on with the bad stuff, i could refer you to the stuff above, such as the concept of hell... which is a strong contender for the most evil idea anyone came up with. what a relief it is to think it's a lie. but then i'm not the target demographic, am i? the main targets for proselytising are children, and old/sick/dying people.
Unleash the Renerageâ„¢
Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
- noun
1. the inevitable criticism one receives after doing something awful
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| Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests [message #466713 is a reply to message #466703] |
Thu, 26 April 2012 12:55 |
fredcow9
Messages: 32
Registered: December 2005
Karma: 0
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[b]Spoony: so you're ok with the instruction for genocide if another town worships another god, or the instruction of what to do if a friend or family member tries to tell you about a different religion?
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If they are wicked yes. I still dont get this part and I would like some explaination.
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or the instruction of what to do if a friend or family member tries to tell you about a different religion?
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Whats the famed biblical instruction?
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2. it is permissible to deliberately slaughter children to frighten the adults in their society
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The slaughtering of children was to show to what extent pharaoh would go to in holding Gods people and the fact that God could kill all the firstborns would prove that hes God because only God could do such a thing could he not?
The quoted question still doesnt really pertain to the Egyptian story. The point was not to frighten anyone but to show who is really who.
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i've already gone over the quite major problems with the concept of hell, the system of torture for not being the right religion that you have repeatedly defended. you had no response to any of them. shall i repeat them?
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If you have a problem with the concept of gravity, its still going to exist and be an acting force. gravity does not care if you accept it or dont think gravity is a permissible thing. Its still there. You knowing its there are unexcused for jumping off a cliff and not expecting to fall.
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Not important enough to believe it himself, though
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So? the High priest according to the bible itself didnt believe Jesus was the son of God that was supposed to come. Many people you would have expected to believe simply did not despite miracles being performed right in front of their face. Instead theyd rather believe Jesus got his authority from demons in mat 12:24
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This is a Jewish man, apparently quite devout. He believes in Yahweh and the Jewish concept of an oncoming messiah (he thought it was some other guy at one point)... and he obviously didn't think Jesus was it.
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As didnt many others. Saul of tarsus didnt believe Christ either till he hit the road to Damascus.
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easy tiger, i just asserted that he is not a contemporary of jesus. you can't seem to find any, can you?
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He was alive a reasonable time afterwards and lived to probably see some of the people that actually saw Jesus face to face. thus why he wrote that
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And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive
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This is not inheritable false and it just so happens that the same events he wrote are also written in the gospels/new testament.
I dont need an overview for argument of Jesus not being authentic from wikipedia. Lets talk specifics. What did you even want me to do with that?
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much, much later than that. josephus wasn't even born until after jesus is supposed to have died.
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of course.
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he probably wrote this stuff half a century or so after jesus was supposed to have been crucified.
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According to who? Also what time period is someone writing about a person after they existed can that not be trusted?
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They coincide with the writings of tacitus who wrote during Christ life up to about the 40s ad.
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eh? Publius (or Gaius) Cornelius Tacitus (AD 56 – AD 117)? that Tacitus?
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yes, 40+ 33= 73...
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Suppose for a moment that this was true. Why do you think this helps your case?
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If the gospels can be trusted and they claim Jesus was the son of God then I have good reason to believe them especially considering.
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The Jewish authorities of the time - men who believed in God and believed in the messiah - they'd been propagating the messiah concept for centuries - did not think Jesus was it. And they were so angry that they wanted him silenced, and even killed. This helps your case? Really? If Jesus really was doing miracles and whatnot, they would have accepted him as the messiah.
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You should read the interactions with the pharisees and Jesus. You will quickly discover they had the power and Jesus was literally striping it away from them and allowing the gentiles into Gods grace as well. You will notice the Jewish authority constantly brings up our father abraham and moses taught us this and that. The Jewish authority was flat our racist tbh.
Why would they automatically accept him as the messiah anyway? Why did the jewish disciples believe Jesus was the son of God and not deny it even unto death?
9/11 is one of the most witnessed events in history because of the major footage covered by it yet you have a division of people that think 9/11 was fake and then you have people that think 9/11 was legitimate. People will always believe or not believe what they wish regardless of evidence.
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They didn't. What say you to that? You think the Jewish authorities simply didn't know he was the messiah? Or you think they purposely had the messiah killed, which would have to be pretty fucking brave of them given what they believed about Yahweh in the old testament?
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They expected Jesus to come and destroy the romans, slay all the non believers and grant the grace of God to the Jews only.
Jesus came in peace, preached humbleness, preached against their adopted customs at the time and really preached against everything the Jewish authority at the time stood for. They were really just evil men who wanted God all to themselves and no one else.
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(the god of the old testament kills people all the time for, like, nothing. what would he do to people who killed the messiah?)
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They are probably enjoying the uber tropical weather.
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The apostles lived with broke bread with slept and did everything with Jesus. If your looking for an eyewitness account they are the best ones your going to get.
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It's true you can't seem to come up with a better one, discounting the Jewish authorities themselves. Or are they not eyewitnesses?
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Wheres their discounting writings?
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....just the gospels or the whole bible?
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For now just the gospels.
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quick summary
1. i don't believe any of the supernatural bullshit (including the existence of a god or the supernatural nature of Jesus). if it turned out that there really was a guy called jesus who did some preaching and got crucified, so what?
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If a man claimed to be the son of God, died fullfilled prophecies the son of God was supposed to AND rose from the dead, thats someone Im willing to believe. You just sound like your not willing to believe no matter what. You would really fall in line with the pharisees at the time. unless im wrong and you would be convinced by direct witnessing.
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2. it obviously has nothing to teach me about morality. the good stuff i already knew, the bad stuff is - well, bad.
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Gods image is in every man, everyone has some feeling of morality no matter how evil they really are.
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3. following on with the bad stuff, i could refer you to the stuff above, such as the concept of hell... which is a strong contender for the most evil idea anyone came up with.
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According to what you think. You might also think the death penalty is cruel and unusual, but yet somewhere in the world people dont agree with you. Why do you assume that your 100% correct on your judgement other than you being the one making it?
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what a relief it is to think it's a lie. but then i'm not the target demographic, am i? the main targets for proselytising are children, and old/sick/dying people.
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You disagree with the way God does things. So did Satan. Good luck. As for target demographic? everyone who doesnt believe is. I dont know why you would belittle a commandment to "go and make disciples of all nations" to old/sick/dying people and children.
Ill leave you with this to answer at some point
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Its quite undeniable that Jesus at the very least existed as a person. The fact the gospels align with these other writings is quite amazing, it shows that the things of Jesus were quite common knowledge for people in that area. The apostles didnt have an internet or public distribution center for their writings so its impossible for them to have based their writings on the gospel accounts and vice versa. Its always come down to if you belive hes the Christ he claimed to be. People will always deny he was, even the high priests of the Jews at the time did and continued to do so. The fact Christianity spread so rapidly and quickly, still surviving to today and its given history really stands testimony enough that the gospel writers are not lying, people acknowledged a man Christ had died and rose from the grave otherwise others in the time period would have written about the lunacy of all these christians worshiping a man that never existed.
since I just jumped in here, Im not going to answer the rest of your posts aimed at that guy of course unless you wish me to. I wont be dodging anything, as I expect you not to either.
EDIT: just wanted to add to this already long post what happened to the disciples and their associates.
Matthew - killed by stabbing as ordered by King Hircanus
James, son of Alphaeous - crucified
James, brother of Jesus - thrown down from a height, stoned and then beaten to death at the hands of Ananias (circa AD 66)
John - tortured by boiling oil, exiled to Patmos in AD 95
Mark - burned during Roman emperor Trajan's reign
Peter - crucified upside-down by the gardens of Nero on the Vatican hill circa AD 64
Andrew - crucified on an "X" shaped cross by Aegeas, governor of the Edessenes, around AD 80
Philip - stoned and crucified in Hierapolis, Phrygia
Simon - crucified in Egypt under Trajan's reign
Thomas - death by spear thrust in Calamina, India
Thaddaeous - killed by arrows
James, son of Zebedee - killed by sword in AD 44 by order of King Herod Agrippa I of Judea
Bartholomew - beaten, flayed alive, crucified upside down, then beheaded
^Find me in history ANY religion that claimed that God was in human form, walked amongst them, did not foribly take over or preach through force, written about by the sources of said religion and outside sources wrote and corroborate their story of the "god" that walked among them, the founders of said religion were also tormented and died still claiming that their "god" was god, in such ways as pointed out above and grew rapidly lasting to even this day.
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| Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests [message #466716 is a reply to message #466713] |
Thu, 26 April 2012 14:17 |
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Spoony
Messages: 3915
Registered: January 2006
Karma: 0
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General (3 Stars)
Tactics & Strategies Moderator |
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| fredcow9 wrote on Thu, 26 April 2012 12:55 |
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[b]Spoony: so you're ok with the instruction for genocide if another town worships another god, or the instruction of what to do if a friend or family member tries to tell you about a different religion?
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If they are wicked yes. I still dont get this part and I would like some explaination.
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or the instruction of what to do if a friend or family member tries to tell you about a different religion?
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Whats the famed biblical instruction?
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Deuteronomy 13:13-19 Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him.
Deuteronomy 13:7-12 If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst.
Deuteronomy 17:2-5 Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death.
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2. it is permissible to deliberately slaughter children to frighten the adults in their society
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The slaughtering of children was to show to what extent pharaoh would go to in holding Gods people and the fact that God could kill all the firstborns would prove that hes God because only God could do such a thing could he not?
The quoted question still doesnt really pertain to the Egyptian story. The point was not to frighten anyone but to show who is really who.
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isn't there some small part of you that wonders why you're trying to justify intentional and systematic genocide of innocent children?
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i've already gone over the quite major problems with the concept of hell, the system of torture for not being the right religion that you have repeatedly defended. you had no response to any of them. shall i repeat them?
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If you have a problem with the concept of gravity, its still going to exist and be an acting force. gravity does not care if you accept it or dont think gravity is a permissible thing. Its still there. You knowing its there are unexcused for jumping off a cliff and not expecting to fall.
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i guess i do need to repeat them, then?
Toggle SpoilerSpoony: isn't the concept of hell revolting and intolerable? why is it a mainstream religious view? i'm talking about the most common description of hell, i.e. a place of torture where you go after you die if you're either a criminal or a non-member of insert-religion-here.
why's it considered acceptable to make such a sick, demented threat to someone? agree with me or you will be tortured in the afterlife? what the fuck? if anyone thinks that hell is real, perhaps they can explain what kind of sick bastard of a god would send someone there just for not worshipping him, and why would you worship a god as merciless and unjust as that?
Fredcow: youv been warned, if your willing to do the crime then be willing to pay the time
Spoony: firstly, you use the word "crime". not being convinced in the truth of your religion is a "crime". having doubts, thinking for yourself... crimes. wow.
secondly, the threatened punishment for this "crime" is torture, forever. you've just defended torture... and we're not talking waterboarding here, we're talking endless inescapable torture. i repeat: you just defended torture. you think kids are going there too or just adults? and isn't god a COLOSSAL twat for doing something so... let's not beat about the bush here... evil? torturing someone FOR EVER just for not believing in him? what a prick.
thirdly, suppose that non-belief in your god and your jesus was a crime, though nobody of any normal moral sense would think it was. suppose it was. i'm not "willing" to do the crime, and it's pointless "warning" me not to do it, because this law (i.e. Believe in God!) is not one i can choose to follow. do you understand that? i don't believe it, but i didn't choose not to believe it. i can't flick a switch and make myself believe in your religion. i could pretend i did, and that's about the best i could do. maybe i could fool the people around me, but i'd be lying, and i won't do that. i'd rather be honest about my non-belief. and according to the usual crap we keep hearing about your god, he seems to know everything and he'd know i was lying too. do you think god would prefer i PRETENDED to believe in him just to get myself out of a punishment, or would he prefer i continued being honest about the fact i just don't believe any of this crap?
fourthly, supposing i COULD choose to take heed of the threat and believe in god. which one? which religion? the pope says only catholics are going to heaven, all the other christian denominations are "deficient". many protestant churches say the same thing in reverse. islam says all non-muslims are going to hell, which would include all christians. who's right here? none of them ever come with any evidence.
Fredcow: you either agree with the concept that God created the world and set up laws both spiritual and scientific or you dont, there really is no discussion to be had here. I still see no problem with hell, you either accept him or you reject him
Spoony: I said you were literally defending torture. You don't mind that.
I said that I cannot choose to follow this law, and therefore the threat of endless torture is not something I could avoid if I wanted to. You don't mind that.
I said that even if I could, which god and which religion am I supposed to obey? The pope who says only Catholics will be saved because other forms of Christianity are "deficient"? The various Protestant churches who say it's the other way around? Islam which says all non-Muslims (i.e. puts you and I in the same category) are going to hell? I say none of you have come up with a damn shred of evidence as to who's right, because they can't all be. You don't even answer the question of which of the above is right, or if it's a different denomination altogether... LET ALONE show any evidence.
No. You "see no problem" with any of this. I've been saying for a while what a fundamentalist you are and how you obviously don't know right from wrong (that became obvious when you said it's OK to kill someone if they preach a different religion, and when you said you'd murder an innocent child if God told you to) - thanks for making it even clearer what a complete lack of moral sense you suffer. Aren't you even remotely ashamed of yourself for supporting such a wicked, oppressive concept of hell? Actively supporting it against its intended victims? Do you have any humanity inside you at all?
Torture as punishment for not being the right religion. What a horrible idea, how completely opposite to the idea of religious freedom. I'm very much in favour of religious freedom - you're a fanatical opponent of it.
Fredcow: I dont mind that you cant avoid endless torture, sorry thats just the way it is
Spoony: Then what a sick, demented, evil god your God is. He's gonna torture me and there's absolutely nothing I can do about it. What a mean lady. What an evil prick, what a cruel, merciless, bloodthirsty tyrant. Why do you worship him?
Do me a favour? say that out loud. say "I'm in favour of the idea that people who are the wrong religion are going to be tortured. This guy said it was wrong, but I defended it." Say that out loud, alone in your room. Then say it to your family. Then go into the street and say it to a complete stranger.
I assume you have no qualms about saying it? It is what you think, isn't it?
Fredcow: sure, you will be tortured for eternity if you dont accept Jesus as your lord and savior, and i firmly believe this.
Spoony: so you're officially pro-torture for people who are not of the right religion, and you're completely unmoved by the 3-4 rather major objections i raised to that.
^^
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Not important enough to believe it himself, though
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So? the High priest according to the bible itself didnt believe Jesus was the son of God that was supposed to come. Many people you would have expected to believe simply did not
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This is a Jewish man, apparently quite devout. He believes in Yahweh and the Jewish concept of an oncoming messiah (he thought it was some other guy at one point)... and he obviously didn't think Jesus was it.
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As didnt many others.
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easy tiger, i just asserted that he is not a contemporary of jesus. you can't seem to find any, can you?
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He was alive a reasonable time afterwards and lived to probably see some of the people that actually saw Jesus face to face. thus why he wrote that
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i've been asking for pages and pages a simple question about where the likes of Josephus got their information from... nobody seems to know. they were repeating what they'd heard... from whom? even if these historians believed it themselves, which they generally don't, there's still not much credibility to what they write, and what they write would be unimpressive even if it were true (generally stuff along the lines of "there was a group of people who believed X...")
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he probably wrote this stuff half a century or so after jesus was supposed to have been crucified.
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According to who?
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...when do you think josephus wrote about jesus?
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Also what time period is someone writing about a person after they existed can that not be trusted?
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in a time when most people couldn't read or write, and the world (at the time and place) was frothing with messianic delusions and schismatic sects?
sorry, but you're gonna have to do a little better than a few droning scribblings written decades after the guy they're talking about is supposed to have died. that's feeble, and if your god is intelligent, he'd know how feeble it is. a decent god who was interested in people all over the world joining his religion ought to be able to do better than this.
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They coincide with the writings of tacitus who wrote during Christ life up to about the 40s ad.
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eh? Publius (or Gaius) Cornelius Tacitus (AD 56 – AD 117)? that Tacitus?
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yes, 40+ 33= 73...
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"tacitus wrote during Christ's life"? are you sure you meant to say that?
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Why did the jewish disciples believe Jesus was the son of God and not deny it even unto death?
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why don't so many people believe it even though you threaten them with worse than death?
not quite the same thing in practice, because you're obviously full of shit, but the principle is the same.
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9/11 is one of the most witnessed events in history because of the major footage covered by it yet you have a division of people that think 9/11 was fake and then you have people that think 9/11 was legitimate. People will always believe or not believe what they wish regardless of evidence.
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let's not compare the two.
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They didn't. What say you to that? You think the Jewish authorities simply didn't know he was the messiah? Or you think they purposely had the messiah killed, which would have to be pretty fucking brave of them given what they believed about Yahweh in the old testament?
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They expected Jesus to come and destroy the romans, slay all the non believers and grant the grace of God to the Jews only.
Jesus came in peace, preached humbleness, preached against their adopted customs at the time and really preached against everything the Jewish authority at the time stood for.
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which is another way of saying that jesus and god have nothing to do with each other.
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They were really just evil men who wanted God all to themselves and no one else.
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sounds quite devout, by old testament standards.
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It's true you can't seem to come up with a better one, discounting the Jewish authorities themselves. Or are they not eyewitnesses?
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Wheres their discounting writings?
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you misunderstand.
"you can't seem to come up with better eyewitness accounts, not counting the Jewish authorities"
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If a man claimed to be the son of God, died fullfilled prophecies the son of God was supposed to AND rose from the dead, thats someone Im willing to believe. You just sound like your not willing to believe no matter what. You would really fall in line with the pharisees at the time. unless im wrong and you would be convinced by direct witnessing.
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whatever makes you feel better about the fact that you can't prove anything important about jesus.
"claimed to be the son of God" - plenty of people claimed stuff like that
"died" - woop de doo
"fulfilled prophecies" - wanna give a few examples?
"rose from the dead" - prove it
as for me "falling in line with the pharisees", let's remember that i've consistently been in favour of religious freedom, whereas you've openly defended murder and torture as punishments for not being the right religion, for offending the religious bullies of the time... which happened to jesus, didn't it? doesn't that make you reconsider? can you really be in favour of persecuting people for not being the right religion when someone you admire was the victim of the same thing?
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2. it obviously has nothing to teach me about morality. the good stuff i already knew, the bad stuff is - well, bad.
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Gods image is in every man, everyone has some feeling of morality no matter how evil they really are.
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what utter drivel
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3. following on with the bad stuff, i could refer you to the stuff above, such as the concept of hell... which is a strong contender for the most evil idea anyone came up with.
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According to what you think.
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no, you're just too fucking retarded to realise that you think it too.
do you want to live in a society where you can be horribly punished for not being the right religion according to those in power? where the ones in power say that the right religion is not the same as yours?
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You disagree with the way God does things.
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you're still aware that i don't think this god of yours is real?
so?
i have a question. why's satan the villain of the bible?
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Good luck. As for target demographic? everyone who doesnt believe is. I dont know why you would belittle a commandment to "go and make disciples of all nations" to old/sick/dying people and children.
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isn't it true that the overwhelming majority of conversions are done by indoctrinating children?
telling kids that religion X or Y is real when they're too young to know any better. kids are taught this bullshit with the same certainly as what they're taught in maths and science, and they're not told "by the way, there's basically no evidence that any of this crap is true, and you can just live your life without a religion btw", and they're threatened with extraordinary punishments.
and of course children are the target demographic, because it doesn't work on intelligent adults. i've debated dozens of religious people and not a single one has said anything to make me think their religions are worthwhile. seriously, not a damn thing. (most of them were less fanatical than you)
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Its quite undeniable that Jesus at the very least existed as a person.
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so?
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The fact the gospels align with these other writings is quite amazing, it shows that the things of Jesus were quite common knowledge for people in that area.
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the gospels don't even agree with each other. but then, i wouldn't expect them to.
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The apostles didnt have an internet or public distribution center for their writings
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and their writings didn't even turn up until decades after the events they purport to describe. sorry, are you still talking about why they're reliable?
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People will always deny he was, even the high priests of the Jews at the time did
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and most of the secular historical sources you cite, josephus etc, they deny it too despite believing in the jewish messiah. sorry, are you still talking about why jesus really was the messiah?
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The fact Christianity spread so rapidly and quickly, still surviving to today and its given history really stands testimony enough that the gospel writers are not lying
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the fact it became so widespread is because it was given power by the roman empire 
collusion with secular dictatorship + indoctrination of children = survival. but despite all this, you still can't prove it's true.
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people acknowledged a man Christ had died and rose from the grave otherwise others in the time period would have written about the lunacy of all these christians worshiping a man that never existed.
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first, swap "never existed" for "was a man, not the son of a god". as for lunacy, have you even read the "secular historical sources" you keep citing? they tend to refer to "the christians" derisively, calling them superstitious and troublemakers, and the jewish ones among them who do believe in the messiah don't think jesus was it.
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EDIT: just wanted to add to this already long post what happened to the disciples and their associates.
Matthew - killed by stabbing as ordered by King Hircanus
James, son of Alphaeous - crucified
James, brother of Jesus - thrown down from a height, stoned and then beaten to death at the hands of Ananias (circa AD 66)
John - tortured by boiling oil, exiled to Patmos in AD 95
Mark - burned during Roman emperor Trajan's reign
Peter - crucified upside-down by the gardens of Nero on the Vatican hill circa AD 64
Andrew - crucified on an "X" shaped cross by Aegeas, governor of the Edessenes, around AD 80
Philip - stoned and crucified in Hierapolis, Phrygia
Simon - crucified in Egypt under Trajan's reign
Thomas - death by spear thrust in Calamina, India
Thaddaeous - killed by arrows
James, son of Zebedee - killed by sword in AD 44 by order of King Herod Agrippa I of Judea
Bartholomew - beaten, flayed alive, crucified upside down, then beheaded
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Nasty stuff. But I can say that, cos unlike you i've always been against people being persecuted for their religion (if that is, indeed, why they were all killed...), whereas you're enthusiastically in favour of it.
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^Find me in history ANY religion that claimed that God was in human form, walked amongst them, did not foribly take over or preach through force, written about by the sources of said religion and outside sources wrote and corroborate their story of the "god" that walked among them, the founders of said religion were also tormented and died still claiming that their "god" was god, in such ways as pointed out above and grew rapidly lasting to even this day.
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it's a shame you didn't put any full stops in here, because this might be a record for the most number of fallacies in a single sentence.
1. "find me in history any religion..." - you must realise you're asking the wrong guy here
2. "claimed that God was in human form" - you haven't proven that jesus said any such thing.
3. "did not forcibly take over or preach through force" - are you fucking retarded? what is Hell? jesus says follow me and do as i say or you'll go to hell.
4. "outside sources corroborate the story" - they do more to undermine than corroborate
5. this isn't exactly a fallacy, but rather something odd i've noticed about you.
you speak highly of the disciples who supposedly stuck to their religion even in the face of threats of death and torture. if this is admirable, why are you so contemptuous towards me sticking to my intellectual position in the face of torture?
it isn't exactly the same thing, if only because your threats are obviously lies, but if you're gonna praise the disciples who kept their faith under fire, can't you admit a grudging respect for someone like me who continues to be honest and open about my non-belief no matter what you threaten me with?
Unleash the Renerageâ„¢
Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
- noun
1. the inevitable criticism one receives after doing something awful
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| Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests [message #466761 is a reply to message #466716] |
Fri, 27 April 2012 13:25 |
fredcow9
Messages: 32
Registered: December 2005
Karma: 0
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Recruit |
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Deuteronomy 13:13-19 Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him.
Deuteronomy 13:7-12 If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst.
Deuteronomy 17:2-5 Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death.
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ok...whats the famed instruction to me? I dont blame God for suggesting the killing of people regardless of who they are trying to entice them to serve other gods. Only makes sense if you drag a group of people out of slavery, perform great wonders before them all, give them a nice plot of land as an inheritance and then they go and worship something else? Of course that threats going to be eliminated. If you really think God commanded that for anyone except the Israelites then you must think I cant eat anything without cloven hooves...
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isn't there some small part of you that wonders why you're trying to justify intentional and systematic genocide of innocent children?
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Im not even trying to justify pharaohs actions...he was just a dumbass.
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i guess i do need to repeat them, then?
Toggle SpoilerSpoony: isn't the concept of hell revolting and intolerable? why is it a mainstream religious view? i'm talking about the most common description of hell, i.e. a place of torture where you go after you die if you're either a criminal or a non-member of insert-religion-here.
why's it considered acceptable to make such a sick, demented threat to someone? agree with me or you will be tortured in the afterlife? what the fuck? if anyone thinks that hell is real, perhaps they can explain what kind of sick bastard of a god would send someone there just for not worshipping him, and why would you worship a god as merciless and unjust as that?
Fredcow: youv been warned, if your willing to do the crime then be willing to pay the time
Spoony: firstly, you use the word "crime". not being convinced in the truth of your religion is a "crime". having doubts, thinking for yourself... crimes. wow.
secondly, the threatened punishment for this "crime" is torture, forever. you've just defended torture... and we're not talking waterboarding here, we're talking endless inescapable torture. i repeat: you just defended torture. you think kids are going there too or just adults? and isn't god a COLOSSAL twat for doing something so... let's not beat about the bush here... evil? torturing someone FOR EVER just for not believing in him? what a prick.
thirdly, suppose that non-belief in your god and your jesus was a crime, though nobody of any normal moral sense would think it was. suppose it was. i'm not "willing" to do the crime, and it's pointless "warning" me not to do it, because this law (i.e. Believe in God!) is not one i can choose to follow. do you understand that? i don't believe it, but i didn't choose not to believe it. i can't flick a switch and make myself believe in your religion. i could pretend i did, and that's about the best i could do. maybe i could fool the people around me, but i'd be lying, and i won't do that. i'd rather be honest about my non-belief. and according to the usual crap we keep hearing about your god, he seems to know everything and he'd know i was lying too. do you think god would prefer i PRETENDED to believe in him just to get myself out of a punishment, or would he prefer i continued being honest about the fact i just don't believe any of this crap?
fourthly, supposing i COULD choose to take heed of the threat and believe in god. which one? which religion? the pope says only catholics are going to heaven, all the other christian denominations are "deficient". many protestant churches say the same thing in reverse. islam says all non-muslims are going to hell, which would include all christians. who's right here? none of them ever come with any evidence.
Fredcow: you either agree with the concept that God created the world and set up laws both spiritual and scientific or you dont, there really is no discussion to be had here. I still see no problem with hell, you either accept him or you reject him
Spoony: I said you were literally defending torture. You don't mind that.
I said that I cannot choose to follow this law, and therefore the threat of endless torture is not something I could avoid if I wanted to. You don't mind that.
I said that even if I could, which god and which religion am I supposed to obey? The pope who says only Catholics will be saved because other forms of Christianity are "deficient"? The various Protestant churches who say it's the other way around? Islam which says all non-Muslims (i.e. puts you and I in the same category) are going to hell? I say none of you have come up with a damn shred of evidence as to who's right, because they can't all be. You don't even answer the question of which of the above is right, or if it's a different denomination altogether... LET ALONE show any evidence.
No. You "see no problem" with any of this. I've been saying for a while what a fundamentalist you are and how you obviously don't know right from wrong (that became obvious when you said it's OK to kill someone if they preach a different religion, and when you said you'd murder an innocent child if God told you to) - thanks for making it even clearer what a complete lack of moral sense you suffer. Aren't you even remotely ashamed of yourself for supporting such a wicked, oppressive concept of hell? Actively supporting it against its intended victims? Do you have any humanity inside you at all?
Torture as punishment for not being the right religion. What a horrible idea, how completely opposite to the idea of religious freedom. I'm very much in favour of religious freedom - you're a fanatical opponent of it.
Fredcow: I dont mind that you cant avoid endless torture, sorry thats just the way it is
Spoony: Then what a sick, demented, evil god your God is. He's gonna torture me and there's absolutely nothing I can do about it. What a mean lady. What an evil prick, what a cruel, merciless, bloodthirsty tyrant. Why do you worship him?
Do me a favour? say that out loud. say "I'm in favour of the idea that people who are the wrong religion are going to be tortured. This guy said it was wrong, but I defended it." Say that out loud, alone in your room. Then say it to your family. Then go into the street and say it to a complete stranger.
I assume you have no qualms about saying it? It is what you think, isn't it?
Fredcow: sure, you will be tortured for eternity if you dont accept Jesus as your lord and savior, and i firmly believe this.
Spoony: so you're officially pro-torture for people who are not of the right religion, and you're completely unmoved by the 3-4 rather major objections i raised to that.
^^
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I dont know what you want me to do with this... am I responding to myself and you? just you? or are you pointing out that your going to just say the same things over and over again. why is hell in religion. why are you punished for being the wrong religion. why is god so merciless to people who dont believe in him. the short answer is because they are very real.
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ok?
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ok?
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i've been asking for pages and pages a simple question about where the likes of Josephus got their information from...
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He said his disciples reported these things in the quote. I dont know why you would ask pages and pages as to how a historian is getting his information about things hes telling you hes got.
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nobody seems to know. they were repeating what they'd heard... from whom?
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Jesus disciples, they reported it.
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even if these historians believed it themselves,
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Thats not relevant, what is, is if they contradict the gospels or not.
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which they generally don't, there's still not much credibility to what they write, and what they write would be unimpressive even if it were true (generally stuff along the lines of "there was a group of people who believed X...")
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right, but again thats not even the point at all. The whole point is that secular historians recorded accounts of Jesus that do exist only confirm what the gospels are saying.
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...when do you think josephus wrote about jesus?
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probably around 60-70 ad. He completed his work in the 90s so its only reasonable for him to accuire information over this time period so he could write his great work hes known for.
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in a time when most people couldn't read or write, and the world (at the time and place) was frothing with messianic delusions and schismatic sects?
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So everything we know about ancient history cant be trusted because all the historians at their respective times would have been delusional? You dont think anyone wrote what they ACTUALLY SAW. I understand the skepticism but you honestly cant think everyone had some sort of an agenda, those that did, they failed. greek mythology is known as greek mythology for a reason. Christ is not mythology.
Yes they are in a time when most couldnt read or write which is why its amazing the gospels are not lying when matched with secular writings dont you think?
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sorry, but you're gonna have to do a little better than a few droning scribblings written decades after the guy they're talking about is supposed to have died.
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Oh did you want writings from people that believed Jesus was the son of God? I was only using people who rejected him and would be the most neutral source.
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that's feeble, and if your god is intelligent, he'd know how feeble it is. a decent god who was interested in people all over the world joining his religion ought to be able to do better than this.
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Id say considering how Christianity swept the world pretty quick did a fine job. the disciples went around getting lots of believers for a reason.
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"tacitus wrote during Christ's life"? are you sure you meant to say that?
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no its not lol, my bad.
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why don't so many people believe it even though you threaten them with worse than death?
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In the meantime, the method I have observed towards those who have been denounced to me as Christians is this: I interrogated them whether they were in fact Christians; if they confessed it, I repeated the question twice, adding the threat of capital punishment; if they still persevered, I ordered them to be executed.-pliny
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not quite the same thing in practice, because you're obviously full of shit, but the principle is the same.
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nice question dodge. please answer it next time.
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let's not compare the two.
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ok...
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which is another way of saying that jesus and god have nothing to do with each other.
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no its a way of saying the jewish elders at the time didnt care about God, his prophecies or following his orders anymore. They were the heads of state and enjoyed their power even amongst roman occupation.
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sounds quite devout, by old testament standards.
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regardless its the case.
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"you can't seem to come up with better eyewitness accounts, not counting the Jewish authorities"
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all writings in secular and church history do not discredit the gospels but support what they said. I can post the pro Jesus peoples writings at the time if you wish, just let me know right here.
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whatever makes you feel better about the fact that you can't prove anything important about jesus.
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So far I have proved the gospels can be trusted, the say hes the son of God. Im not so sure what else you need to classify it as "important"
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"claimed to be the son of God" - plenty of people claimed stuff like that
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not like him, who else who claimed to be the son of God fullfilled over 300 prophecies, written about in secular history, started a whole religion that exists till today where the direct disciples didnt deny their son of god till the bitter end?
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"died" - woop de doo
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an innocent man dying one after reading your posts would think they would have more concern and be blasting the roman government for such atrocities. Of course when it comes to your enemies though you dont care.
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"fulfilled prophecies" - wanna give a few examples?
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Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.
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Mattthew 1:20-23 [20] But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, "Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. [21] She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins." [22] All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: [23] "The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" --which means, "God with us."
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Isaiah 37:31 Once more a remnant of the house of Judah will take root below and bear fruit above.
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Matthew 1:1-2, 16 [1] A record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ the son [descendant] of David, the son of Abraham: [2] Abraham was the father of Isaac, Isaac the father of Jacob, Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers, [16] and [a later] Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
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Isaiah 16:5 In love a throne will be established; in faithfulness a man will sit on it--one from the house of David--one who in judging seeks justice and speeds the cause of righteousness
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Matthew 1:1-2A, 6, 16 [1] A record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ the son of David, the son of Abraham: [2] Abraham was the father of Isaac, ... [6] and Jesse the father of King David. [16] and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
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Micah 5:2 But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.
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Matthew 2:1 After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem
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Jeremiah 31:15 This is what the LORD says: "A voice is heard in Ramah, mourning and great weeping, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because her children are no more."
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Matthew 2:16-18 [16] When Herod realized that he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was furious, and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had learned from the Magi. [17] Then what was said through the prophet Jeremiah was fulfilled: [18] "A voice is heard in Ramah, weeping and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because they are no more."
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Hosea 11:1 When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.
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Matthew 2:14-15 [14] So he got up, took the child and his mother during the night and left for Egypt, [15] where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: "Out of Egypt I called my son."
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Isaiah 49:6 he [the Lord] says: "It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth."
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Isaiah 42:1-4, 6 [1] "Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him and he will bring justice to the nations. [2] He will not shout or cry out, or raise his voice in the streets. [3] A bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out. In faithfulness he will bring forth justice; [4] he will not falter or be discouraged till he establishes justice on earth. In his law the islands will put their hope." [6] "I, the LORD, have called you in righteousness; I will take hold of your hand. I will keep you and will make you to be a covenant for the people and a light for the Gentiles,
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Matthew 12:14-21 [14] But the Pharisees went out and plotted how they might kill Jesus. [15] Aware of this, Jesus withdrew from that place. Many followed him, and he healed all their sick, [16] warning them not to tell who he was. [17] This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah: [18] "Here is my servant whom I have chosen, the one I love, in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will proclaim justice to the nations. [19] He will not quarrel or cry out; no one will hear his voice in the streets. [20] A bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out, till he leads justice to victory. [21] In his name the nations will put their hope."
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Isaiah 35:5-6a [5] Then will the eyes of the blind be opened and the ears of the deaf unstopped. [6a] Then will the lame leap like a deer, and the mute tongue shout for joy.
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Luke 7:20-22 [20] When the men came to Jesus, they said, "John the Baptist sent us to you to ask, `Are you the one who was to come, or should we expect someone else?' " [21] At that very time Jesus cured many who had diseases, sicknesses and evil spirits, and gave sight to many who were blind. [22] So he replied to the messengers, "Go back and report to John what you have seen and heard: The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cured, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is preached to the poor."
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this one pertains to you lol
Psalm 69:4 Those who hate me without reason outnumber the hairs of my head; many are my enemies without cause, those who seek to destroy me. I am forced to restore what I did not steal.
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Isaiah 49:7 This is what the LORD says-- the Redeemer and Holy One of Israel-- to him who was despised and abhorred by the nation, to the servant of rulers: "Kings will see you and rise up, princes will see and bow down, because of the LORD, who is faithful, the Holy One of Israel, who has chosen you."
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John 7:48-49 "Has any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed in him? [49] No! But this mob that knows nothing of the law--there is a curse on them."
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and
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John 15:24-25 [24] If I had not done among them what no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. But now they have seen these miracles, and yet they have hated both me and my Father. [25] But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: `They hated me without reason.'
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Psalm 118:22 The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone [cornerstone of a building]; [23] the LORD has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes
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Matthew 21:42 Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures:" `The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone; the Lord has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes' ?
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Zechariah 11:12 I told them, "If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it." So they paid me thirty pieces of silver.
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Matthew 26:14-15 [14] Then one of the Twelve--the one called Judas Iscariot--went to the chief priests [15] and asked, "What are you willing to give me if I hand him over to you?" So they counted out for him thirty silver coins.
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Psalm 22:16 Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet.
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John 20:25 So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it."
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Psalm 22:17 I can count all my bones; people stare and gloat over me.
and
Psalm 34:20 he protects all his bones, not one of them will be broken.
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John 19:33; 36a [33] But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. [36a] These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: "Not one of his bones will be broken,"
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Psalm 22:18 They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing.
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Matthew 27:35 When they had crucified him, they divided up his clothes by casting lots
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Isaiah 53:9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death ...
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Matthew 27:57,59-60 [57] As evening approached, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who had himself become a disciple of Jesus. [59] Joseph took the body, wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, [60] and placed it in his own new tomb that he had cut out of the rock. He rolled a big stone in front of the entrance to the tomb and went away.
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Isaiah 53:8, 11 [8] By oppression and judgment he was taken away. And who can speak of his descendants? For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was stricken. [11] After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light of life and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities.
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Matthew 28:2, 5-7, 9 [2] There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it. [5] The angel said to the women, "Do not be afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified. [6] He is not here; he has risen, just as he said. Come and see the place where he lay. [7] Then go quickly and tell his disciples: `He has risen from the dead and is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him.' Now I have told you." [9] Suddenly Jesus met them. "Greetings," he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him.
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Now one might say oh they just orchestrated all these things ect ect blah blah blah. get real. No one in history has done such a thing going to their dying grave believing it to be true expecting a hoax to carry through the government in a time when said government has made it illegal to even believe such things under penalty of death.
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"rose from the dead" - prove it
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the gospels claim it, the secular writings claim others claiming it. Im really not sure what your expecting. you think the roman government at the time cared at all what some random local in israel was doing? let alone record anything specifically about him?
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as for me "falling in line with the pharisees", let's remember that i've consistently been in favour of religious freedom, whereas you've openly defended murder and torture as punishments for not being the right religion,
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no, you are talking about the things the ancient israelites were commanded, because I believe God carried out these commandments and I dont doubt the reasonableness of them then you automatically attach some label to me of defending murder and torture for being the wrong religion. please try again.
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for offending the religious bullies of the time... which happened to jesus, didn't it?
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No if you are talking about ot commandments these are directly from God. the pharisees are not God.
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doesn't that make you reconsider? can you really be in favour of persecuting people for not being the right religion when someone you admire was the victim of the same thing?
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Its not the same, Christ was guilty of nothing according to the scriptures except trying to save everyone.
well I could have guessed that!
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no, you're just too fucking retarded to realise that you think it too.
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So because I dont share the same life values and what punishments are deserving in life im retarded?
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do you want to live in a society where you can be horribly punished for not being the right religion according to those in power?
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Where does the bible command anyone in this age to do such a thing?
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where the ones in power say that the right religion is not the same as yours?
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This happens but not from a christian point of view. All over the world christians are killed on a daily basis for not conforming to the governments belief system. I dont think thats right and it is fucked up, its why in america the constitution is written the way it is.
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you're still aware that i don't think this god of yours is real?
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even if you thought he was, you wouldnt believe. I think you even said that once a long time ago, though i could be wrong.
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i have a question. why's satan the villain of the bible?
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In a grasp of greed, satan sought to take over the throne of God with 1/3 the angels. as punishment for this he was condemned to hell (made just for him and the angles originally). Since he cant do anything to God, hes decided to go after Gods children. Now why does God permit this I dont know, however its reality and thats just the way things are so I accept it.
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isn't it true that the overwhelming majority of conversions are done by indoctrinating children?
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no, its more than likely that the work done overseas creates more real followers.
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telling kids that religion X or Y is real when they're too young to know any better.
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I know alot of people that had christian upbringings. They are not christian in the least lol.
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kids are taught this bullshit with the same certainly as what they're taught in maths and science, and they're not told "by the way, there's basically no evidence that any of this crap is true, and you can just live your life without a religion btw", and they're threatened with extraordinary punishments.
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You dont think theres any evidence and that its all just that faith crap. the bible itself regarding the existence of God? "the fool hath said in his heart, there is no God" thats it because its just outlandish to even THINK FOR ONE SECOND that we were put here by chance or some other retarded theory running around of evolving species. Look at the bullshit "science" they teach kids at a young age and tell me whoes really lying to who?
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and of course children are the target demographic, because it doesn't work on intelligent adults.
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are you saying I cant come up with a list of intelligent people through history that were christian?
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i've debated dozens of religious people and not a single one has said anything to make me think their religions are worthwhile. seriously, not a damn thing. (most of them were less fanatical than you)
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How is that relevant? if anything it just sounds like your full of yourself tbh.
If he existed he either died on a cross or didnt. he either rose from the dead or didnt. Based on all I have presented thus far your not doing the best job of showing me my errors here.
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the gospels don't even agree with each other. but then, i wouldn't expect them to.
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where?
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and their writings didn't even turn up until decades after the events they purport to describe. sorry, are you still talking about why they're reliable?
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I asked you what reasonable amount of time after a persons death is a source reliable. I dont see the problem with them being written decades after. Thier instruction wasnt "go and write a book" it was "go and make disciples of all nations" they went and did their work then they wrote about it. I dont see the problem.
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and most of the secular historical sources you cite, josephus etc, they deny it too despite believing in the jewish messiah.
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I purposely picked people who denied him...Yet even they agree with the gospels.
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sorry, are you still talking about why jesus really was the messiah?
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are you talking about why he wasnt? Im yet to see anything from you on this.
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the fact it became so widespread is because it was given power by the roman empire
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why was it given power by the roman empire
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collusion with secular dictatorship + indoctrination of children = survival. but despite all this, you still can't prove it's true.
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what are you talking about?
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first, swap "never existed" for "was a man, not the son of a god". as for lunacy, have you even read the "secular historical sources" you keep citing?
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It seems thus far you havent even glanced at them.
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they tend to refer to "the christians" derisively, calling them superstitious and troublemakers, and the jewish ones among them who do believe in the messiah don't think jesus was it.
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They affirmed, however, that the whole of their guilt, or their error, was that they were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to perform any wicked deed, never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to make it good; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food - but food of an ordinary and innocent kind
In the meantime, the method I have observed towards those who have been denounced to me as Christians is this: I interrogated them whether they were in fact Christians; if they confessed it, I repeated the question twice, adding the threat of capital punishment; if they still persevered, I ordered them to be executed.
some quotes you clearly dont want to deal with.
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EDIT: just wanted to add to this already long post what happened to the disciples and their associates.
Matthew - killed by stabbing as ordered by King Hircanus
James, son of Alphaeous - crucified
James, brother of Jesus - thrown down from a height, stoned and then beaten to death at the hands of Ananias (circa AD 66)
John - tortured by boiling oil, exiled to Patmos in AD 95
Mark - burned during Roman emperor Trajan's reign
Peter - crucified upside-down by the gardens of Nero on the Vatican hill circa AD 64
Andrew - crucified on an "X" shaped cross by Aegeas, governor of the Edessenes, around AD 80
Philip - stoned and crucified in Hierapolis, Phrygia
Simon - crucified in Egypt under Trajan's reign
Thomas - death by spear thrust in Calamina, India
Thaddaeous - killed by arrows
James, son of Zebedee - killed by sword in AD 44 by order of King Herod Agrippa I of Judea
Bartholomew - beaten, flayed alive, crucified upside down, then beheaded
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Nasty stuff. But I can say that, cos unlike you i've always been against people being persecuted for their religion (if that is, indeed, why they were all killed...), whereas you're enthusiastically in favour of it.
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I thought the Christians were doing the persecuting according to you?
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it's a shame you didn't put any full stops in here, because this might be a record for the most number of fallacies in a single sentence.
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1. "find me in history any religion..." - you must realise you're asking the wrong guy here
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fair enough, point though is you wont. anyone else reading this the challenge is also at you.
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2. "claimed that God was in human form" - you haven't proven that jesus said any such thing.
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long scripture post #2
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John 14:7-10 [7] If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." [8] Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." [9] Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, `Show us the Father'? [10] Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.
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John 10:30 "I and the Father are one."
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John 14:11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.
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John 10:37-38 [37] Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. [38] But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."
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Matthew 27:43 He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, 'I am the Son of God.'"
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John 17:11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name--the name you gave me--so that they may be one as we are one.
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John 10:31-33 [31] Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, [32] but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?" [33] "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."
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John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
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3. "did not forcibly take over or preach through force" - are you fucking retarded? what is Hell? jesus says follow me and do as i say or you'll go to hell.
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wheres the force?
Jesus: Im God heres a consequence if you dont believe me even though Iv been performing miracles for years and it shoudlnt be this difficult
Man: I dont believe you anyway. why are you forcing me to go to hell?
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4. "outside sources corroborate the story" - they do more to undermine than corroborate
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where and how?
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5. this isn't exactly a fallacy, but rather something odd i've noticed about you.
you speak highly of the disciples who supposedly stuck to their religion even in the face of threats of death and torture. if this is admirable, why are you so contemptuous towards me sticking to my intellectual position in the face of torture?
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of course its intellectual to you  . The point of the disciples sticking to their death and torture is that its reasonable to assume they are not lying.
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it isn't exactly the same thing, if only because your threats are obviously lies, but if you're gonna praise the disciples who kept their faith under fire, can't you admit a grudging respect for someone like me who continues to be honest and open about my non-belief no matter what you threaten me with?
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of course, I have no contempt for you or your positions even though it may come across that way its just because we are in debate. I greatly appreciate people being open bout their beliefs. what I do not respect however are people who claim to be open but when questions come up they are dodged or twisted around. believe it or not I have respect for you spoony.
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| Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests [message #466788 is a reply to message #442568] |
Sat, 28 April 2012 00:37 |
Major-Payne
Messages: 561
Registered: March 2012
Location: Im actually MUDKIPS
Karma: 0
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Colonel |
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Funny how christians say: YOU CANT USE SCIENCE TO DISPROVE MY FAITH yet they quote the bible as "proof" they are right all the time.
Kind of a double standard eh. "MY BOOK IS BETTER THAN ALL YOUR BOOKS"
It's all part of the big illusion that we perpetuate on ourselves and in turn is perpetuated upon us. When we believe, we engage the illusion. When we stop believing we shatter the illusion and shatter ourselves in the process. Because we are, part of it.
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| Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests [message #466841 is a reply to message #466788] |
Sat, 28 April 2012 17:36 |
fredcow9
Messages: 32
Registered: December 2005
Karma: 0
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Recruit |
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| Major-Payne wrote on Sat, 28 April 2012 00:37 |
Funny how christians say: YOU CANT USE SCIENCE TO DISPROVE MY FAITH
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These Christians need to examine their faith then
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yet they quote the bible as "proof" they are right all the time.
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The bible as a historical source gives alot of info that can be trusted as has been backed up by archaeology, extra biblical sources and secular history.
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Kind of a double standard eh. "MY BOOK IS BETTER THAN ALL YOUR BOOKS"
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If one will claim that it should be supported.
Its like when people claim that God and science are not supposed to mix. whoever has been brainwashing you with that nonsense is failable in the first place in that if God does exist, then he would have had to make the rules of science and mathematics. Its when the interpretation of science is done to purposefully EXCLUDE God or some sort of a creator that the objectiveness of scientists are broken. Its why there are so many creation scientists who are well credited in their respective fields.
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| Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests [message #466848 is a reply to message #466761] |
Sat, 28 April 2012 18:27 |
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Spoony
Messages: 3915
Registered: January 2006
Karma: 0
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General (3 Stars)
Tactics & Strategies Moderator |
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| fredcow9 wrote on Fri, 27 April 2012 13:25 |
ok...whats the famed instruction to me? I dont blame God for suggesting the killing of people regardless of who they are trying to entice them to serve other gods. Only makes sense if you drag a group of people out of slavery, perform great wonders before them all, give them a nice plot of land as an inheritance and then they go and worship something else? Of course that threats going to be eliminated. If you really think God commanded that for anyone except the Israelites then you must think I cant eat anything without cloven hooves...
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firstly, when did you think this instruction was rescinded?
secondly, interesting you classify worshipping a different religion as a "threat"; previously you called non-belief a "crime" so i suppose i shouldn't be surprised
thirdly, haven't you noticed that one of them is a command for completely indiscriminate slaughter? just a few people in the city worship golden calves or whatever, and that's enough to slaughter the entire city's population down to the last child? good grief
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isn't there some small part of you that wonders why you're trying to justify intentional and systematic genocide of innocent children?
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Im not even trying to justify pharaohs actions...he was just a dumbass.
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uh no, i was referring to yahweh's deliberate targeting of children.
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I dont know what you want me to do with this... am I responding to myself and you? just you? or are you pointing out that your going to just say the same things over and over again. why is hell in religion. why are you punished for being the wrong religion. why is god so merciless to people who dont believe in him. the short answer is because they are very real.
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i think that exchange is very telling as to the difference between us; me going into quite some detail as to serious problems with your religion, and you having no answer to any of it beyond "join my religion or be tortured" over and over again
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He said his disciples reported these things in the quote. I dont know why you would ask pages and pages as to how a historian is getting his information about things hes telling you hes got.
Jesus disciples, they reported it.
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who? when? what did they say?
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even if these historians believed it themselves,
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Thats not relevant, what is, is if they contradict the gospels or not.
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it's not relevant whether a devout Jewish man who seriously believes in the oncoming messiah is convinced that Jesus is the real deal or not?
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which they generally don't, there's still not much credibility to what they write, and what they write would be unimpressive even if it were true (generally stuff along the lines of "there was a group of people who believed X...")
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right, but again thats not even the point at all. The whole point is that secular historians recorded accounts of Jesus that do exist only confirm what the gospels are saying.
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that's much too generous a statement.
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...when do you think josephus wrote about jesus?
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probably around 60-70 ad. He completed his work in the 90s so its only reasonable for him to accuire information over this time period so he could write his great work hes known for.
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so again, decades after jesus is supposed to have died.
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So everything we know about ancient history cant be trusted because all the historians at their respective times would have been delusional? You dont think anyone wrote what they ACTUALLY SAW. I understand the skepticism but you honestly cant think everyone had some sort of an agenda, those that did, they failed. greek mythology is known as greek mythology for a reason. Christ is not mythology.
Yes they are in a time when most couldnt read or write which is why its amazing the gospels are not lying when matched with secular writings dont you think?
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uh no, cos all these "secular writings" basically say is "there's a group of people who believed this guy who lived a few decades ago was their messiah". even if this wasn't in a time and place where there was basically no such thing as education, where superstition was rampant and where most people already believed in god(s) anyway, this would still not vindicate the gospels.
i'm glad you mention greek mythology, because there's an analogy i can make. have you read the Iliad? if not, quick summary: story of (some of) the Trojan War, the greek city-states send armies to lay siege to Troy and eventually take it thanks to the wooden horse. while most of the action is done by greek and trojan heroes such as achilles, hector, odysseus etc, the greek gods are also involved and sometimes interfere in events. e.g. at one point the god Apollo sends a plague against the greeks because they were rude to a priest.
now, there is a city which seems like a good candidate for Troy. there might have been a war that destroyed it. suppose some evidence cropped up that a plague ravaged the armies besieging the city. i doubt such evidence could be found - this was centuries before jesus - but suppose it was. or suppose one of the besieging warriors was named Achilles.
this, i'm sure you'll agree, would not prove the greek gods were real.
in other words, finding out that one or two details of the Iliad to be vaguely accurate says nothing about the rest of it, especially the supernatural bits.
same for the gospels.
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sorry, but you're gonna have to do a little better than a few droning scribblings written decades after the guy they're talking about is supposed to have died.
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Oh did you want writings from people that believed Jesus was the son of God? I was only using people who rejected him and would be the most neutral source.
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you're saying you deliberately picked devout jewish people who rejected the idea that jesus was the messiah thinking this would be the best way to prove your case?
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that's feeble, and if your god is intelligent, he'd know how feeble it is. a decent god who was interested in people all over the world joining his religion ought to be able to do better than this.
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Id say considering how Christianity swept the world pretty quick did a fine job. the disciples went around getting lots of believers for a reason.
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i can suggest a few reasons
- the enormous amount of superstition and credulity of the time and place
- the fact loads of people there already believed in god(s), specifically judaism and the prospect of an imminent messiah
- the fact there was basically no such thing as education
- the coercive nature of the religion itself, i.e. follow me or you will be tortured
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why don't so many people believe it even though you threaten them with worse than death?
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In the meantime, the method I have observed towards those who have been denounced to me as Christians is this: I interrogated them whether they were in fact Christians; if they confessed it, I repeated the question twice, adding the threat of capital punishment; if they still persevered, I ordered them to be executed.-pliny
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yes, there were obviously people who refused to deny their religion when threatene with death, and the point i was making is there are far more people who won't join this religion when threatened with even worse.
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not quite the same thing in practice, because you're obviously full of shit, but the principle is the same.
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nice question dodge. please answer it next time.
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eh?
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which is another way of saying that jesus and god have nothing to do with each other.
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no its a way of saying the jewish elders at the time didnt care about God, his prophecies or following his orders anymore. They were the heads of state and enjoyed their power even amongst roman occupation.
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how do you know that?
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whatever makes you feel better about the fact that you can't prove anything important about jesus.
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So far I have proved the gospels can be trusted
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again, this is a laughable overstatement
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"died" - woop de doo
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an innocent man dying one after reading your posts would think they would have more concern and be blasting the roman government for such atrocities. Of course when it comes to your enemies though you dont care.
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not the point i was making. everybody dies. being put to death in horrible ways for non-crimes was not uncommon at all at that time and place. i've consistently been opposed to blasphemy/heresy trials, and unelected religious bullies having power over the rest of us; i don't need to make a special point of each victim.
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"fulfilled prophecies" - wanna give a few examples?
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Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.
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Mattthew 1:20-23 [20] But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, "Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. [21] She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins." [22] All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: [23] "The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" --which means, "God with us."
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i think i heard that "virgin" was a mistranslation of "young woman" or something like that?
but suppose it really is "virgin". how do you know mary was a virgin?
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Isaiah 37:31 Once more a remnant of the house of Judah will take root below and bear fruit above.
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Matthew 1:1-2, 16 [1] A record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ the son [descendant] of David, the son of Abraham: [2] Abraham was the father of Isaac, Isaac the father of Jacob, Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers, [16] and [a later] Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
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what's special about this?
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Isaiah 16:5 In love a throne will be established; in faithfulness a man will sit on it--one from the house of David--one who in judging seeks justice and speeds the cause of righteousness
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Matthew 1:1-2A, 6, 16 [1] A record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ the son of David, the son of Abraham: [2] Abraham was the father of Isaac, ... [6] and Jesse the father of King David. [16] and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
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joseph counts as jesus' father, does he? interesting
jesus had a throne?
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Micah 5:2 But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.
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Matthew 2:1 After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem
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sorry, i'm not following this one.
[quote]Jeremiah 31:15 This is what the LORD says: "A voice is heard in Ramah, mourning and great weeping, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because her children are no more."
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Matthew 2:16-18 [16] When Herod realized that he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was furious, and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had learned from the Magi. [17] Then what was said through the prophet Jeremiah was fulfilled: [18] "A voice is heard in Ramah, weeping and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because they are no more."
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that's not really a prediction, is it? rachel was waaaaaay before herod. what's the connection?
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Hosea 11:1 When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.
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Matthew 2:14-15 [14] So he got up, took the child and his mother during the night and left for Egypt, [15] where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: "Out of Egypt I called my son."
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again, this isn't really a prediction.
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Isaiah 49:6 he [the Lord] says: "It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth."
and
Isaiah 42:1-4, 6 [1] "Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him and he will bring justice to the nations. [2] He will not shout or cry out, or raise his voice in the streets. [3] A bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out. In faithfulness he will bring forth justice; [4] he will not falter or be discouraged till he establishes justice on earth. In his law the islands will put their hope." [6] "I, the LORD, have called you in righteousness; I will take hold of your hand. I will keep you and will make you to be a covenant for the people and a light for the Gentiles,
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Matthew 12:14-21 [14] But the Pharisees went out and plotted how they might kill Jesus. [15] Aware of this, Jesus withdrew from that place. Many followed him, and he healed all their sick, [16] warning them not to tell who he was. [17] This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah: [18] "Here is my servant whom I have chosen, the one I love, in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will proclaim justice to the nations. [19] He will not quarrel or cry out; no one will hear his voice in the streets. [20] A bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out, till he leads justice to victory. [21] In his name the nations will put their hope."
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if this is a prediction, and despite its vagueness i'll say it kinda is, isn't it obvious jesus failed to fulfil it?
[quote]Isaiah 35:5-6a [5] Then will the eyes of the blind be opened and the ears of the deaf unstopped. [6a] Then will the lame leap like a deer, and the mute tongue shout for joy.
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Luke 7:20-22 [20] When the men came to Jesus, they said, "John the Baptist sent us to you to ask, `Are you the one who was to come, or should we expect someone else?' " [21] At that very time Jesus cured many who had diseases, sicknesses and evil spirits, and gave sight to many who were blind. [22] So he replied to the messengers, "Go back and report to John what you have seen and heard: The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cured, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is preached to the poor."
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barely a prediction. how do you know jesus cured anybody?
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this one pertains to you lol
Psalm 69:4 Those who hate me without reason outnumber the hairs of my head; many are my enemies without cause, those who seek to destroy me. I am forced to restore what I did not steal.
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stop me if i'm wrong, but it's David who says this? what does it have to do with Jesus?
[quote]Isaiah 49:7 This is what the LORD says-- the Redeemer and Holy One of Israel-- to him who was despised and abhorred by the nation, to the servant of rulers: "Kings will see you and rise up, princes will see and bow down, because of the LORD, who is faithful, the Holy One of Israel, who has chosen you."
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John 7:48-49 "Has any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed in him? [49] No! But this mob that knows nothing of the law--there is a curse on them."
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and
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John 15:24-25 [24] If I had not done among them what no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. But now they have seen these miracles, and yet they have hated both me and my Father. [25] But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: `They hated me without reason.'
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notice the vagueness?
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Psalm 118:22 The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone [cornerstone of a building]; [23] the LORD has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes
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Matthew 21:42 Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures:" `The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone; the Lord has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes' ?
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again, it's hard to see in what sense this is a prediction?
[quote]Zechariah 11:12 I told them, "If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it." So they paid me thirty pieces of silver.
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Matthew 26:14-15 [14] Then one of the Twelve--the one called Judas Iscariot--went to the chief priests [15] and asked, "What are you willing to give me if I hand him over to you?" So they counted out for him thirty silver coins.
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again, not a prediction.
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Psalm 22:16 Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet.
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John 20:25 So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it."
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says david. nothing to do with jesus as far as i can tell. and again, not a prediction. for example, three or four verses previously - the same speech - he says he's beset by "bulls of Bashan". if this is a prophecy, jesus failed to fulfil it.
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Psalm 22:17 I can count all my bones; people stare and gloat over me.
and
Psalm 34:20 he protects all his bones, not one of them will be broken.
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John 19:33; 36a [33] But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. [36a] These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: "Not one of his bones will be broken,"
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the first one is in the very same speech as the bulls of bashan, which isn't a prophecy and has nothing to do with jesus. and you should be glad of that, because if you want to claim it's a prophecy, you can only conclude that jesus failed to fulfil it.
the second one contains an interesting turn of phrase. a variation of it crops up quite a lot: "and this happened so that it would be fulfiled that which was spoken by the prophets". very interesting turn of phrase. sounds like "we did it because the scriptures said it would happen", and there's nothing supernatural about that, is there?
but once again, the bit in psalms seems to have nothing to do with a messiah.
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Psalm 22:18 They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing.
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Matthew 27:35 When they had crucified him, they divided up his clothes by casting lots
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still in the bulls of bashan speech
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Isaiah 53:9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death ...
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Matthew 27:57,59-60 [57] As evening approached, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who had himself become a disciple of Jesus. [59] Joseph took the body, wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, [60] and placed it in his own new tomb that he had cut out of the rock. He rolled a big stone in front of the entrance to the tomb and went away.
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all of this chapter so far is written in the past tense. in what sense, therefore, is it a prediction?
i wonder how long it would take for a man to cut a tomb out of the rock.
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Isaiah 53:8, 11 [8] By oppression and judgment he was taken away. And who can speak of his descendants? For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was stricken. [11] After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light of life and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities.
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Matthew 28:2, 5-7, 9 [2] There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it. [5] The angel said to the women, "Do not be afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified. [6] He is not here; he has risen, just as he said. Come and see the place where he lay. [7] Then go quickly and tell his disciples: `He has risen from the dead and is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him.' Now I have told you." [9] Suddenly Jesus met them. "Greetings," he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him.
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again, notice the vagueness?
got any better ones than these? cos these are not impressive.
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"rose from the dead" - prove it
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the gospels claim it, the secular writings claim others claiming it. Im really not sure what your expecting.
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certainly not that you could prove it.
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as for me "falling in line with the pharisees", let's remember that i've consistently been in favour of religious freedom, whereas you've openly defended murder and torture as punishments for not being the right religion,
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no, you are talking about the things the ancient israelites were commanded, because I believe God carried out these commandments and I dont doubt the reasonableness of them then you automatically attach some label to me of defending murder and torture for being the wrong religion. please try again.
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okay, let's say the stuff in deuteronomy and leviticus etc is only talking to the people of the time, and not instructions for you. scratch those. we've still got hell, haven't we? (which is worse than the instructions in deuteronomy)
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doesn't that make you reconsider? can you really be in favour of persecuting people for not being the right religion when someone you admire was the victim of the same thing?
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Its not the same, Christ was guilty of nothing according to the scriptures except trying to save everyone.
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it's worse. jesus repeatedly threatens people with hell if they don't do as he says. and if he claimed to be god, then that's much worse than when your local priest makes the same threats.
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no, you're just too fucking retarded to realise that you think it too.
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So because I dont share the same life values and what punishments are deserving in life im retarded?
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no, you missed the point. i speculated that you might actually agree that being tortured for not being the right religion is indeed a bad thing, but just haven't realised that you think so. i wonder if you've ever really thought about it, i.e. hell.
think about it now.
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do you want to live in a society where you can be horribly punished for not being the right religion according to those in power?
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Where does the bible command anyone in this age to do such a thing?
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*cough* hell *cough*
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where the ones in power say that the right religion is not the same as yours?
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This happens but not from a christian point of view. All over the world christians are killed on a daily basis for not conforming to the governments belief system. I dont think thats right and it is fucked up
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interesting. so you think people can be horribly tortured for not being the right religion by God, but you think it's "not right" and "fucked up" when the same thing (or rather, a much more lenient thing) is inflicted by humans?
try extending your thoughts a little. consider the following question.
Should a person be tortured as a punishment for not being the right religion?
i say: no. you say: yes, but only when it's my religion and when my dictator is doing the torturing.
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you're still aware that i don't think this god of yours is real?
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even if you thought he was, you wouldnt believe. I think you even said that once a long time ago, though i could be wrong.
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what do you mean by "believe"?
i've definitely said that it would take more than evidence of god and jesus to make me a christian, because there is more than one objection for me. it's not just the fact that i don't think it's true, there's also the fact that i morally object to a lot of it. finding out that the god of the bible really was real would be very bad news as far as i'm concerned. it's a great relief to think there's no hell. finding out that it was true would mean a few friends and family members are being horribly tortured right now. good people, just not the right religion. i don't think it's possible for me to grasp what a crushing blow this would be.
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i have a question. why's satan the villain of the bible?
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In a grasp of greed, satan sought to take over the throne of God with 1/3 the angels. as punishment for this he was condemned to hell (made just for him and the angles originally). Since he cant do anything to God, hes decided to go after Gods children. Now why does God permit this I dont know, however its reality and thats just the way things are so I accept it.
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haven't you noticed that satan barely appears in the bible at all?
the war in heaven stuff is only in Revelation, which - let's face it - is so ridiculous it probably shouldn't even be in the bible. even christians can't agree on what the fuck it's talking about.
satan barely appears in the books besides that; mainly in Job, where he is a dick but only a secondary antagonist, the primary antagonist obviously being God (may as well be satan's boss, apparently... if this is even the same Satan commonly referred to, and there's a strong argument for saying it isn't)
that, and when he tempts jesus in the wilderness, which isn't much of a big deal
no, the villain of the book is very obviously Yahweh. what mischief does satan do? he kills a few people in Job, certainly an awful thing to do, albeit a thing done with Yahweh's permission. compare that to the enormous death toll Yahweh racks up in the bible, either by wiping people out himself or ordering people to do it (arguably worse) and the whole hell business.
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telling kids that religion X or Y is real when they're too young to know any better.
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I know alot of people that had christian upbringings. They are not christian in the least lol.
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interesting. i hear this a lot when i talk to christians, "those people aren't really christians". sometimes in the same post as claims of how many christians there are.
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kids are taught this bullshit with the same certainly as what they're taught in maths and science, and they're not told "by the way, there's basically no evidence that any of this crap is true, and you can just live your life without a religion btw", and they're threatened with extraordinary punishments.
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You dont think theres any evidence and that its all just that faith crap.
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christians - or perhaps not christians in your view - never tire of telling us so.
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"the fool hath said in his heart, there is no God"
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this bit of demagoguery is completely discredited by the following verses, where it says that these non-believers are all horribly wicked and none of them have ever done any good thing. that is so obviously untrue that i wonder why christians ever want to draw attention anywhere near it.
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thats it because its just outlandish to even THINK FOR ONE SECOND that we were put here by chance or some other retarded theory running around of evolving species. Look at the bullshit "science" they teach kids at a young age and tell me whoes really lying to who?
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you must realise how stupid you sound at this point, surely?
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and of course children are the target demographic, because it doesn't work on intelligent adults.
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are you saying I cant come up with a list of intelligent people through history that were christian?
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moving the goalposts a bit there.
you can also come up with a list of intelligent people who believed other fucking retarded stuff like alchemy and the phlogiston (sp?) theory.
question is why were they christians? could it be because they were brought up christians, i.e. indoctrinated as kids, because education was fucking awful at the time, because christianity had all kinds of political power, because of hell threats, because of how dangerous it was to admit you weren't a christian?
no, fast-forward to now. it's very, very rare for an intelligent person to convert to christianity through logical, civilised debate without coercion. but then, without coercion, christianity wouldn't be christianity.
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i've debated dozens of religious people and not a single one has said anything to make me think their religions are worthwhile. seriously, not a damn thing. (most of them were less fanatical than you)
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How is that relevant? if anything it just sounds like your full of yourself tbh.
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no, it's an observation on the abject failure of my debate opponents to prove anything important, or answer any of my moral objections.
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If he existed he either died on a cross or didnt. he either rose from the dead or didnt. Based on all I have presented thus far your not doing the best job of showing me my errors here.
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died on a cross wouldn't be unusual. rising from the dead would be (though it wouldn't vindicate his moral teachings, or even prove that he himself had the supernatural power), so what a shame we've had no evidence of that.
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the gospels don't even agree with each other. but then, i wouldn't expect them to.
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where?
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we can skip over the numerous times when the speeches of jesus don't agree with each other, because that's exactly what you would expect from reports written decades after a person died. who was Joseph's father?
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and most of the secular historical sources you cite, josephus etc, they deny it too despite believing in the jewish messiah.
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I purposely picked people who denied him...Yet even they agree with the gospels.
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i'm not sure i believe that you intentionally picked people who do more to undermine your case than support it.
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the fact it became so widespread is because it was given power by the roman empire
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why was it given power by the roman empire
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i don't know. to pacify rebellious minorities, perhaps?
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first, swap "never existed" for "was a man, not the son of a god". as for lunacy, have you even read the "secular historical sources" you keep citing?
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It seems thus far you havent even glanced at them.
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sigh... don't be silly
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Nasty stuff. But I can say that, cos unlike you i've always been against people being persecuted for their religion (if that is, indeed, why they were all killed...), whereas you're enthusiastically in favour of it.
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I thought the Christians were doing the persecuting according to you?
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"the Christians"?
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1. "find me in history any religion..." - you must realise you're asking the wrong guy here
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fair enough, point though is you wont.
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and indeed, why would i? to say your religion can claim something other religions can't is hardly impressive.
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2. "claimed that God was in human form" - you haven't proven that jesus said any such thing.
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long scripture post #2
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so, like i said, you haven't proven that jesus said any such thing. the gospels say he said it, so what? prove he said it, please... and then your real work will be still ahead of you: prove he was right.
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3. "did not forcibly take over or preach through force" - are you fucking retarded? what is Hell? jesus says follow me and do as i say or you'll go to hell.
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wheres the force?
Jesus: Im God heres a consequence if you dont believe me even though Iv been performing miracles for years and it shoudlnt be this difficult
Man: I dont believe you anyway. why are you forcing me to go to hell?
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what is hell? a place of torture made by jesus's dad (apparently). obey me or that's where you will go as a punishment. this is an awful way to behave. jesus was not a good person if he said what the gospels say he said.
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4. "outside sources corroborate the story" - they do more to undermine than corroborate
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where and how?
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see above re: jewish men obviously not thinking jesus was the messiah, christians being referred to derisively, nothing supernatural being vindicated
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5. this isn't exactly a fallacy, but rather something odd i've noticed about you.
you speak highly of the disciples who supposedly stuck to their religion even in the face of threats of death and torture. if this is admirable, why are you so contemptuous towards me sticking to my intellectual position in the face of torture?
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of course its intellectual to you . The point of the disciples sticking to their death and torture is that its reasonable to assume they are not lying.
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who said they were? i'm more inclined to think they ("they" is such a vague word, we really should specify who are we talking about) were just plain wrong
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it isn't exactly the same thing, if only because your threats are obviously lies, but if you're gonna praise the disciples who kept their faith under fire, can't you admit a grudging respect for someone like me who continues to be honest and open about my non-belief no matter what you threaten me with?
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of course, I have no contempt for you or your positions even though it may come across that way its just because we are in debate. I greatly appreciate people being open bout their beliefs. what I do not respect however are people who claim to be open but when questions come up they are dodged or twisted around.
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why would a petty little thing like that bother you? you're ok with people being horribly tortured for not being the right religion. if that can't bother you, why get worked up about what some guy says?
Unleash the Renerageâ„¢
Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
- noun
1. the inevitable criticism one receives after doing something awful
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| Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests [message #466927 is a reply to message #442568] |
Mon, 30 April 2012 22:02 |
Gohax
Messages: 738
Registered: January 2009
Karma: 0
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Colonel |
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I find this fun to read, lol. Honestly (this coming from someone that doesn't know much about Christianity [besides what I learned through history, which was a lot] nor the other side) it's all about Faith. Nothing is proven. People use the Bible as proof, yet even it has false statements. There was only one thing that really got me about the Bible, and that it was 99.98% correct in it's translations. However, that's only because the time-frame it was written in, 10-40 years after the events of Jesus' crucifixion.
There was no doubt he lived, I think there was actual historic evidence. But him actually being a the son of God, that's a different story.
You can either choose to live your life serving a god that may, or may not, exist. And in the end you lived your life how you wanted to, and either you wasted it or you didn't. However, there are people that realize that you only have one life. And they want to live it how they want to. I find it almost ridiculous that a god should judge that person based on how they want to live their life. What really gets me about Christianity (and I've even talked with an avid Christian about this) is the fact that someone that lives there life, not through God, but going to school as a kid, being a good kid, making good grades all the way through school. Graduating highschool/college, getting a nice job, raising a family, and staying out of trouble; just living a good life. That person that I just described could possibly go to hell because they didn't live their life through Christ.
However, someone that has murdered people, even raped people, could still go to heaven by repenting their sins and living the rest of their life through Christ? I don't understand how that works.
I was forced to take a class in college (religion class) and the professor stated that all sin is seen as the same type of sin. There is no "scale" of sin. Stealing a candy bar at a store or murdering someone is seen as the same type of "sin" to God. How is that?
Anyhow, before I drag myself into this, I'll leave with that. However, my views are rather mixed. I guess I believe in an afterlife because I don't want to believe that whenever you die that's it. However, I don't live my life everyday thinking that way, I live it doing what I want and how I want.
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·OTBot·Gohax killed beerfull4 (Black Hand Sniper/Sniper Rifle Vs. Deadeye/Sniper Rifle).
·OTBot·beerfull4: see that for sure a auto aim
·OTBot·beerfull4: u know how i can tell
·OTBot·Gohax: LOL
·OTBot·Gohax: how can you tell?
·OTBot·beerfull4: becuz your american and americans are like that
·OTBot·Gohax: LOL!
·OTBot·beerfull4 has left the game.
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| Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests [message #466964 is a reply to message #442568] |
Wed, 02 May 2012 10:56 |
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Spoony
Messages: 3915
Registered: January 2006
Karma: 0
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General (3 Stars)
Tactics & Strategies Moderator |
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Prove it.
Go on, prove it. You claim you know a single damn thing about the afterlife? Prove it. Even claiming that there is an afterlife at all is an extraordinary claim. Prove it. Then go on to prove that you know its nature, and who's going where.
Don't dodge this one, like you did with the resurrection business. Prove it or admit you can't prove it.
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no rush, eatcow
Unleash the Renerageâ„¢
Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
- noun
1. the inevitable criticism one receives after doing something awful
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| Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests [message #466969 is a reply to message #442568] |
Wed, 02 May 2012 14:27 |
YesNoMayb
Messages: 176
Registered: February 2012
Karma: 0
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Recruit |
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I personally don't believe in the afterlife. The key reason for this is there is no concrete evidence of an afterlife. We only have theories and beliefs to go on and these are not reliable. You can't say that something is in existence without proof. There are beliefs and theories that extraterrestrial life does exist elsewhere but again, those are only beliefs and theories.
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