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| Re: IMPORTANT! [message #439140 is a reply to message #439119] |
Tue, 09 November 2010 16:43   |
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R315r4z0r
Messages: 3836
Registered: March 2005
Location: New York
Karma: 0
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General (3 Stars) |
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| reborn wrote on Tue, 09 November 2010 04:41 |
| R315r4z0r wrote on Mon, 08 November 2010 14:46 |
How am I wrong?
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You said:
| R315r4z0r wrote on Mon, 08 November 2010 14:30 |
[color=crimson]Not one single person in this community is worthy of receiving the source code for this game.
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This statement is incorrect, therefore you are wrong.
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But how is it incorrect?
There is no right way to handle the source code. If ANYONE gets it, regardless of if their intentions are good or not, the game will die.
That is why no one is worthy of handling the source code. Not you, not me, not even TT (rhyme not intended).
It's not about trust. The fact that cheaters would become a bigger nuance is the least of the problems that would arise.
People would constantly be trying to "improve" the game in ways that they feel the game should be improved. They will make patches to fix some bugs that may or may not actually be bugs. They will add things to the game, remove things from the game. It would be chaotic.
As a result, everyone would leave the main community and split into different factions who support different versions of the game. However, since each group would be substantially less than the collective community, matches would be smaller and people would eventually get bored of the game and leave. Thus, Renegade's life will finally come to an end.
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| Re: IMPORTANT! [message #439141 is a reply to message #439140] |
Tue, 09 November 2010 16:51 |
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Dover
Messages: 2547
Registered: March 2006
Location: Monterey, California
Karma: 0
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General (2 Stars) |
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| R315r4z0r wrote on Tue, 09 November 2010 15:43 |
| reborn wrote on Tue, 09 November 2010 04:41 |
| R315r4z0r wrote on Mon, 08 November 2010 14:46 |
How am I wrong?
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You said:
| R315r4z0r wrote on Mon, 08 November 2010 14:30 |
[color=crimson]Not one single person in this community is worthy of receiving the source code for this game.
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This statement is incorrect, therefore you are wrong.
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But how is it incorrect?
There is no right way to handle the source code. If ANYONE gets it, regardless of if their intentions are good or not, the game will die.
That is why no one is worthy of handling the source code. Not you, not me, not even TT (rhyme not intended).
It's not about trust. The fact that cheaters would become a bigger nuance is the least of the problems that would arise.
People would constantly be trying to "improve" the game in ways that they feel the game should be improved. They will make patches to fix some bugs that may or may not actually be bugs. They will add things to the game, remove things from the game. It would be chaotic.
As a result, everyone would leave the main community and split into different factions who support different versions of the game. However, since each group would be substantially less than the collective community, matches would be smaller and people would eventually get bored of the game and leave. Thus, Renegade's life will finally come to an end.
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| DarkDemin wrote on Thu, 03 August 2006 19:19 |
Remember kids the internet is serious business.
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| Re: sign my petition to EA to open-source Renegade [message #439144 is a reply to message #439059] |
Tue, 09 November 2010 17:51 |
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If TT had the source code, we would only use it for the benefit of the entire renegade community.
TT would NOT remove a thing from Renegade as it is now, nor would we alter the gameplay of renegade in any way.
We would add a LOT of things for modders to use (new physics types, new building types, new object types, new options for existing building/object types) but nothing would affect stock renegade.
Any new features we add that could impact standard renegade would be added via optional keywords in server.ini or elsewhere (just like we have done with a few new options in 4.0)
We have gone to great lengths with scripts 4.0 to make sure we DON'T break standard renegade.
Every bug we have fixed is a genuine bug where its clear from the way the old code is written that its not intended to work that way.
Jonathan Wilson aka Jonwil
Creator and Lead Coder of the Custom scripts.dll
Renegade Engine Guru
Creator and Lead Coder of TT.DLL
Official member of Tiberian Technologies
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| Re: sign my petition to EA to open-source Renegade [message #439145 is a reply to message #439059] |
Tue, 09 November 2010 19:08 |
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I should add that where we HAVE made changes that affect normal renegade, they have all been changes that no-one except bad guys (cheaters etc) would have a reason to disagree with.
For example, we fixed a number of places where it is possible to send malformed/bad/malicious packets to renegade and crash the server (or carry out a denial-of-service-attack on the server)
We also made code changes to 4.0 to make certain cheats in popular anti-cheating programs no longer work (by changing the way certain code works so that its harder to exploit)
Some people may complain about us fixing bugs in ways that change the gameplay. Specifically people may want to complain about us fixing the bug in the damage calculation that made it possible to shoot certain vehicles with certain weapons where little-to-no damage was done but where points were gained that should not have been (i.e. "pointsfix").
During the beta cycle of 4.0 we will take feedback from server owners and add options to disable these features as necessary to gain "buy-in" from the server owner community (I say server owners here because they are the ones that will be deciding whether to enable or disable the various optional features of 4.0 including the file-hash anti-cheat)
Jonathan Wilson aka Jonwil
Creator and Lead Coder of the Custom scripts.dll
Renegade Engine Guru
Creator and Lead Coder of TT.DLL
Official member of Tiberian Technologies
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| Re: sign my petition to EA to open-source Renegade [message #439149 is a reply to message #439059] |
Tue, 09 November 2010 23:02 |
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TT already has the skills to exploit Renegade if we wanted to. We can reverse engineer any part of the game. (and in fact have reverse engineered large chunks of it for 4.0 to fix bugs, remove hacks, block cheats, add new features for modders and generall make Renegade a better game)
Also, if EA DID give out the source (under NDA most likely) they would have rules attached to it. The NDA/license would likely contain rules about not using the source for malicious/bad purposes with penalties for doing so.
In any case it doesnt really matter as its unlikely EA even knows where the source IS at this point (or where it went after they shut down the Westwood development shop in Vegas). And if they DID have it, they would never give it out since it contains far too many 3rd party libraries.
Jonathan Wilson aka Jonwil
Creator and Lead Coder of the Custom scripts.dll
Renegade Engine Guru
Creator and Lead Coder of TT.DLL
Official member of Tiberian Technologies
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| Re: IMPORTANT! [message #439152 is a reply to message #439140] |
Wed, 10 November 2010 01:13 |
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reborn
Messages: 3231
Registered: September 2004
Location: uk - london
Karma: 0
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General (3 Stars) |
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| R315r4z0r wrote on Tue, 09 November 2010 18:43 |
| reborn wrote on Tue, 09 November 2010 04:41 |
| R315r4z0r wrote on Mon, 08 November 2010 14:46 |
How am I wrong?
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You said:
| R315r4z0r wrote on Mon, 08 November 2010 14:30 |
Not one single person in this community is worthy of receiving the source code for this game.
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This statement is incorrect, therefore you are wrong.
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But how is it incorrect?
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It's incorrect because there is at least One person who is worthy of receiving the source code to renegade.
You have formed your statement based on insufficient knowledge, and have come to an incorrect conclusion.
I am not going to pretend that I am worthy of receiving the source code, but I do know enough to know that your statement is incorrect, and so are your reasons to coming to the conclusion that you did.
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| Re: sign my petition to EA to open-source Renegade [message #439155 is a reply to message #439150] |
Wed, 10 November 2010 02:32 |
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Gen_Blacky
Messages: 3250
Registered: September 2006
Karma: 1
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General (3 Stars) |
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| EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Wed, 10 November 2010 01:54 |
| Gen_Blacky wrote on Wed, 10 November 2010 04:02 |
Even TT is not trust worthy enough to handle the source code tbh. Even though this group of people have created many wonderful things over the years for renegade like anticheat and bug fixs. How do we know that this group of people wouldn't take advantage of such things. We don't so logically the best answer is for no one to have the source.
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You do not seem to understand that TT doesn't NEED the sourcecode for it to do it's job. It just makes the TT job a whole lot easier than with reverse-engineering. I also think you don't have enough faith.
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I do understand that you do not need the source code you guys proved that long ago. You guys are basically exploiting renegade to make it better. Im not saying TT couldn't be trusted with the source. I was just using tt as an example to explain my argument.
Also do you think ea would ever show snippets of code from the source of certain features that tt was interested in excluding all 3rd party code. Im sure ea doesn't give a crap but have you ever asked for examples how something may work.
| Goztow wrote on Wed, 10 November 2010 02:22 |
It's better not to release it at all. It's not because you can trust a person today that you can trust him tomorrow. We've had enough examples.
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This ^
[Updated on: Wed, 10 November 2010 02:45] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: IMPORTANT! [message #439167 is a reply to message #439152] |
Wed, 10 November 2010 10:07 |
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R315r4z0r
Messages: 3836
Registered: March 2005
Location: New York
Karma: 0
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General (3 Stars) |
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| reborn wrote on Tue, 09 November 2010 04:41 |
It's incorrect because there is at least One person who is worthy of receiving the source code to renegade.
You have formed your statement based on insufficient knowledge, and have come to an incorrect conclusion.
I am not going to pretend that I am worthy of receiving the source code, but I do know enough to know that your statement is incorrect, and so are your reasons to coming to the conclusion that you did.
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Even apart from the reason I gave before, I also happen to think that no one is trust worthy enough in this community to handel it. The only type of person I would trust with the source code is someone to take it and hide it away from everyone else. That's the only person that can be trusted with it. But, like I said, once the code is in the community, everyone will be trying to "improve" the game. That means to change it from what it is.
No one will recieve the source code and do NOTHING with it. If someone got it, they will try what they believe is "improving" and that will ruin the game.
I don't mean to say that there is no one in the community who can make quality adjustments to the game, to the contrary. I don't want their crap in this game regardless of the bugs they fix or the problems they remove.
I'm trying to say that anyone who attempts to do so will effectively be assisting in killing off this community. Why? Because not everyone will agree with what is being changed. There will be multiple modifications splitting this game apart and that means less people will be playing together with one another. Eventually, people will get bored and leave.
Just leave the game as it is right now. There is no need to change it.
[Updated on: Wed, 10 November 2010 10:11] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: IMPORTANT! [message #439174 is a reply to message #439064] |
Wed, 10 November 2010 11:04 |
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Zion
Messages: 2722
Registered: April 2006
Karma: 1
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General (2 Stars) |
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| CarrierII wrote on Mon, 08 November 2010 17:06 |
| Comp_uter15776 wrote on Mon, 08 November 2010 16:35 |
please visit <a href="http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/RENEGADE" target="_blank"></a> and sign up. It is a petition to persuade EA to make Renegade open source. If you would like more info please reply to this thread, and ill sure pick it up.
P.S. Theres no harm in siging the petition, even if you think it won't work.... You don't even have to use proper info, if you want.
Cheers, Comp.
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Open sourcing Renegade would actually make things worse, also, you kind of... forgot to link to the website.
Edit: I fixed your link for you.
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Funny.dat, because the link returns a 404...
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| Re: IMPORTANT! [message #439248 is a reply to message #439167] |
Thu, 11 November 2010 04:11 |
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reborn
Messages: 3231
Registered: September 2004
Location: uk - london
Karma: 0
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General (3 Stars) |
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| R315r4z0r wrote on Wed, 10 November 2010 12:07 |
There will be multiple modifications splitting this game apart [/color]
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You've changed your arguement from "There is no one person who should be given the source" to "The community should not be given the source". I do not see how I can continue to debate the point, when you've just changed it.
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| Re: IMPORTANT! [message #439343 is a reply to message #439248] |
Fri, 12 November 2010 12:56 |
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R315r4z0r
Messages: 3836
Registered: March 2005
Location: New York
Karma: 0
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General (3 Stars) |
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| reborn wrote on Thu, 11 November 2010 06:11 |
| R315r4z0r wrote on Wed, 10 November 2010 12:07 |
There will be multiple modifications splitting this game apart [/color]
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You've changed your arguement from "There is no one person who should be given the source" to "The community should not be given the source". I do not see how I can continue to debate the point, when you've just changed it.
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..?
I haven't changed anything...?
Both those statements are the same thing...
And you have yet to start a debate on the argument... so what you would be continuing is new to me... All you have been saying so far is 'you are wrong, I am right, deal with it.'
[Updated on: Fri, 12 November 2010 12:59] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: sign my petition to EA to open-source Renegade [message #439366 is a reply to message #439059] |
Sat, 13 November 2010 00:31 |
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Crimson
Messages: 7428
Registered: February 2003
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Karma: 0
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General (5 Stars)
ADMINISTRATOR |
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Those aren't even close to the same thing. Giving the source (or parts thereof) to a single person or small group is not the same as giving it "the community" which implies completely open-sourcing it.
I'm the bawss.
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