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Liquid trying to understand British logic - cleared [message #438525]

Thu, 28 October 2010 17:39

Spoony
Messages: 3915
Registered: January 2006

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liquidv2 wrote on Thu, 28 October 2010 18:05

clearsh0t and simpee thought it was an outrage that pointmod servers would have more rank than original point servers
i don't think they understood that it was either the proposed handicap against it or no ladder at all; if they did it was just stubbornness

firstly, as to which you allude, they were too stupid to see that the move was yet another compromise in their direction, in spite of the fact nobody on their side would ever budge an inch the other way.
secondly, they were so angry at not getting their way ("their way" meaning they alone would make the decisions about the TT/BHS ladder) that they actively tried to sabotage it. this is almost exactly what they tried to do to the clanwars league earlier on for exactly the same reason.
thirdly, how was it done? ENDLESSLY lying to the community (i'm talking pages and pages and pages, as you well know), knowingly making accusations that -a- they knew at the time were lies and -b- they didn't even have the common sense to withdraw once they were disproven, and against -c- someone who'd never done them anything but favours. (i'll add -d- trying to cover up their own past offences)
their goal was to impose their own opinion upon someone else's ladder project, with no regard at all for debate or "democracy" or the rights of the people who owned it, and the method by which they tried to do it was one of the most dishonest things this game has ever seen.

i hate to remind you, liquid, that while they were doing this, i kept trying over and over and over again to point out to you that this is what they were doing to the clanwars league - you unfailingly took their side (i.e. the right of cheaters and pointpushers and rulebreakers and compulsive liars to impose their will on someone else's league, instead of the league owner and duly appointed admin's right to decide how their own project should be run). the problem wasn't what these cheaters were doing, the problem was i supposedly "wasn't listening to them" (a bit of an odd statement considering the amount of debate i encouraged on the subject... it's a euphemism for "not doing what they say, let's be honest)

no, don't understate all that as "stubbornness". spiteful, vindictive, selfish, extraordinarily dishonest... call it what it was. you completely disgraced yourself by unceasingly taking the side of the people who kept trying to sabotage the clanwars league instead of mine; i hope you're not so bollock-brainedly stupid about the situation now

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clanwars and public games are far different from each other, and while clanwars players are far better overall public games are closer to intended renegade game sizes
more games are played publically, and the ladder should be designed to fit what we can best determine to be intended renegade

i may as well get this over with because it's bound to crop up sooner or later:
i think the original renegade points system westwood designed (i.e. pointsfix) is superior gameplay in every way to that fucking retarded bug/mod where you can get points for absolutely no reason (?!)
i do not, however, think the original ladder system westwood designed is ideal at all. i can vastly improve upon it.
so, "it's what westwood intended" is by no means the beginning and the end of the argument. they did a fine job designing the points system, they did a pathetic job designing the ladder. like i said, if i didn't say that now i'd almost certainly be saying it later.

Quote:

a ladder will never be perfect, but i believe a pretty damn good one could be made

i agree; it would be very simple indeed to make one better than the original westwood ladders. i could accomplish that with just a few fundamental number changes, never mind anything anyone's said about the pointsfix.

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[Updated on: Mon, 01 November 2010 00:44] by Moderator

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Re: BHS Ladder [message #438532 is a reply to message #438525]

Thu, 28 October 2010 19:00

liquidv2
Messages: 3407
Registered: February 2007

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General (3 Stars)

Quote:

secondly, they were so angry at not getting their way ("their way" meaning they alone would make the decisions about the TT/BHS ladder) that they actively tried to sabotage it.

i think they were mad that original points servers would be penalized and not held at the same value as pointmod servers, and that's why they said Fuck Spoony and fuck the TT ladder
i don't remember them saying they wanted control of the ladder or anything like that

Quote:

i think the original renegade points system westwood designed (i.e. pointsfix) is superior gameplay in every way to that fucking retarded bug/mod where you can get points for absolutely no reason (?!)

idk, games seem closer with the bugged points
i have fun in both but it's definitely easier with the original points to gain income and use it against the enemy
the enemy is more than welcome to do the same against me
i do agree that the game is more fair with the pointmod, in terms of point distribution
does it balance the game more? idk, i think it makes Nod do better more often than GDI in public servers
more so than the original points
is that a bad thing? depends on your perspective

Quote:

i do not, however, think the original ladder system westwood designed is ideal at all. i can vastly improve upon it.
so, "it's what westwood intended" is by no means the beginning and the end of the argument. they did a fine job designing the points system, they did a pathetic job designing the ladder. like i said, if i didn't say that now i'd almost certainly be saying it later.

who's saying the westwood ladder is the best way to rank renegade? it's a stupid argument
we have the chance now to make one that's far more in-depth than theirs had a chance to be

you rant entirely too much about how bad of people simpee and clearsh0t are
it had nothing to do with anything in this case and i've heard it all before

and i thought i covered this in my post

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either they're so biased against you at this point for whatever reason or reasons that they completely ignore the fact that you're trying to do something in their favor, or they don't think that that's good enough and feel original points should count as much as the pointmod
it's their opinion; it doesn't have to match yours or make any sense

Quote:

their goal was to impose their own opinion upon someone else's ladder project, with no regard at all for debate or "democracy" or the rights of the people who owned it, and the method by which they tried to do it was one of the most dishonest things this game has ever seen.

some people are closed-minded, and they have the right to be
what did they do that was so dishonest? tell lies about past things you did or something completely unrelated? i don't even remember, but it seems much more important to you than it does to me

i'm just gonna throw this out there, i'm not sure renegade would be around or still living if the pointmod had been the original point system

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Re: BHS Ladder [message #438541 is a reply to message #438532]

Thu, 28 October 2010 19:54

Spoony
Messages: 3915
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liquidv2 wrote on Thu, 28 October 2010 20:00

i don't remember them saying they wanted control of the ladder or anything like that

well, they certainly didn't want to be admins (i recruit for renadmins and they don't apply, cos that means you actually have to do some work), but they still want to make all the decisions nonetheless, and either threaten or carry out direct action if they're not obeyed.

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i have fun in both but it's definitely easier with the original points to gain income and use it against the enemy

that's right. if you can get points and money for absolutely no reason, it is easier to get money. well observed.

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the enemy is more than welcome to do the same against me
i do agree that the game is more fair with the pointmod, in terms of point distribution
does it balance the game more? idk, i think it makes Nod do better more often than GDI in public servers
more so than the original points
is that a bad thing? depends on your perspective

a lot of people in public servers still don't really know how to play GDI properly.

Quote:

[color=skyblue]who's saying the westwood ladder is the best way to rank renegade? it's a stupid argument
we have the chance now to make one that's far more in-depth than theirs had a chance to be

i was pre-empting an objection.

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you rant entirely too much about how bad of people simpee and clearsh0t are
it had nothing to do with anything in this case and i've heard it all before

has everything to do with what troop said. you have indeed heard it all before (and usually sided with them)

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[color=skyblue]either they're so biased against you at this point for whatever reason or reasons

i love these euphemisms of yours.

"for whatever reason or reasons", as if maybe they have legitimate grievances but we don't have time to go into that. well, we gave them plenty of time to air their concerns about the problems of having spoony as an admin. you remember what they did, i hope? you remember the ENORMOUS list of accusations they posted against me, EVERY SINGLE ONE of which turned out to be a knowing fabrication?

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that they completely ignore the fact that you're trying to do something in their favor

that's the anti-pointsfix crowd in a nutshell.

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or they don't think that that's good enough and feel original points should count as much as the pointmod

you perhaps missed simpee saying that if he had his way, no servers would be allowed to use the pointsfix at all? something which - as i keep unsuccessfully trying to remind you - they tried to put into action when i was originally testing the pointsfix at clanwars, and you supported them when they did?

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it's their opinion; it doesn't have to match yours or make any sense

oh, please. don't try to describe an absurd episode of extraordinary dishonesty and vindictiveness as "well, their opinion doesn't have to match yours". if someone cheated in jelly and you banned him for it, i might as well say you banned him for having a different opinion (on whether it's acceptable to cheat)

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what did they do that was so dishonest? tell lies about past things you did or something completely unrelated? i don't even remember, but it seems much more important to you than it does to me

it wasn't unrelated, because clearshot and simpee specifically brought it all up as an argument against the TT ladder. once it occurred to them that the decisions on how the ladder would be run might not be made by them and them alone, they tried to sabotage it rather than it be run in a way other than theirs (EXACTLY LIKE THEY DID TO CLANWARS)
they tried to drive people away from the ladder by saying don't play here guys, spoony's the admin of it (not quite true but meh) and here's a huge list of admin abuses he did at his other ladder. and of course, they posted their huge list of accusations - every single one of which was an easily exposed lie. and all this comes from two people who actually do have records of cheating and pointpushing and breaking rules - when i pointed that out, surprise surprise, they lied about that too.

Quote:

i'm just gonna throw this out there, i'm not sure renegade would be around or still living if the pointmod had been the original point system

that's ridiculous. if the point bug had never existed, it would never have occurred to anybody to make a mod to let people get points by shooting tanks with snipers and auto rifles, thinking that this was the right solution to the problem of not having enough money. i would be surprised if anybody even thought that this "problem" existed at all.

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[Updated on: Thu, 28 October 2010 20:00]

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Re: BHS Ladder [message #438546 is a reply to message #438525]

Thu, 28 October 2010 20:54

trooprm02
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liquidv2 wrote on Thu, 28 October 2010 18:05

why would you (troop) or anyone want only clanwars players designing a ladder that affects non-clanwars players more?

I think everyone is forgetting a very important point...whats the purpose of a ladder? To increase competition. Who would be better to design such a system than those who play at the HIGHEST competitive level themselves? Letting public server players decide how a central ladder for this game would work, is like letting the obese decide who competes in the olympics......

And Spoony, I think your putting me into the wrong time frame lol because I was there when (not just him but yah) soul "disagreed" with you when you wanted to change some rules.

@clanwar players being good in small games but not larger ones...LOL? No clue where you got this idea from, but if someone can win 2v2's against decent players, they will have no trouble at all getting an MVP in jelly aow.....

My: Videos/Website/Forums

[Updated on: Thu, 28 October 2010 20:56]

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Re: BHS Ladder [message #438547 is a reply to message #438546]

Thu, 28 October 2010 20:58

liquidv2
Messages: 3407
Registered: February 2007

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General (3 Stars)

trooprm02 wrote on Thu, 28 October 2010 22:54

i think obese people do decide who competes, just sayin
the HIGHEST competitive level is a clanwar to you
renegade was actually designed for bigger than that
why would you be better at making a ladder than someone that plays intended renegade? you're all about little games
go make a clanwar renegade ladder for small games if you know so much about competitive renegade because that will affect you

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Re: BHS Ladder [message #438548 is a reply to message #438525]

Thu, 28 October 2010 21:06

liquidv2
Messages: 3407
Registered: February 2007

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General (3 Stars)

no one can argue rationally that the original points were intended
i'm not saying that either; what i am saying is that despite it being bugged it might be the reason renegade is still around or alive and kicking
it allows for more flexibility as far as games go, even though it's unfair and flawed
if it were such a problem people would have quit playing it years ago but they've played on

Quote:

no, what i kept saying was i thought you were a douche for putting the pointmod in clanwars despite the fact that seemingly 90% of your players didn't want it
which, you had every right in the world to do, it's your league
you wanted the game to be more balanced and fair
they could have gone somewhere else but they trust and stand by you - to them and much of renegade there is no clanwars now without Spoony
clanwars doesn't have to be a democracy, but people can easily say that you're a douche for ignoring your player base instead of making the game more fun for it and making decision that please it

saying i support them (clear and simpee) getting the pointmod removed from renegade is a load of shit lol

i don't think they went out of their way to get people to avoid the TT ladder, one of them made a post saying Everyone forget about this shit it's Spoony and he's stubborn and the ladder is bullshit don't even worry about it
in their own words
that's hardly leading a rebellion like you're describing it to be

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Re: BHS Ladder [message #438550 is a reply to message #438525]

Thu, 28 October 2010 22:35

Gen_Blacky
Messages: 3250
Registered: September 2006

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General (3 Stars)

"no, what i kept saying was i thought you were a douche for putting the pointmod in clanwars despite the fact that seemingly 90% of your players didn't want it"

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Re: BHS Ladder [message #438557 is a reply to message #438546]

Fri, 29 October 2010 05:23

Spoony
Messages: 3915
Registered: January 2006

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trooprm02 wrote on Thu, 28 October 2010 22:54

so you're not at all in favour of it being 'democratically' decided, is what you're saying?

Quote:

And Spoony, I think your putting me into the wrong time frame lol because I was there when (not just him but yah) soul "disagreed" with you when you wanted to change some rules.

uh no, i'm talking about when he pointpushed with photoshopped screenshots, lying to everyone (including his own clan) in the process, and i was the only person who thought he should be punished for it. everyone else at clanwars (give or take maybe 2 people) thought he should be let off because he played twice as much as everyone else.

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no one can argue rationally that the original points were intended

which is to say that the overwhelming majority of people who've weighed in on the pointsfix debates were not doing so rationally.

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i'm not saying that either; what i am saying is that despite it being bugged it might be the reason renegade is still around or alive and kicking

good lord

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it allows for more flexibility as far as games go, even though it's unfair and flawed

"flexibility" means half the tactics available don't work because the enemy gets more points defending against them than you get by using them to attack, does it? but to compensate for all these unfeasible ways to play, you have the option of just shooting tanks with a sniper all game, achieving absolutely nothing but getting an extraordinary amount of points for doing so.

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if it were such a problem people would have quit playing it years ago but they've played on

shall i repeat one of the things i kept saying about how the point bug affected clanwars? it made some maps so unfair that players like simpee would just leave at the beginning if they got the bad side. they'd pretend it wasn't because they got the bad side, but you always knew it was. eventually it got so bad that i had to make new rules to stop them doing it, and suddenly they didn't have to leave anymore.

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no, what i kept saying was i thought you were a douche for putting the pointmod in clanwars despite the fact that seemingly 90% of your players didn't want it

that just shows how stupid you were at the time, because it never occurred to you to call those "90%" douches for not even managing to bother setting up a league for anybody at all.

perhaps you also remember that i listed everyone who was outraged at the thought of the game being fairer; it was no coincidence that every single one of them had a track record of cheating, pointpushing, rulebreaking, dishonesty etc - something i kept pointing out to you over and over again and i couldn't seem to get you to care about. you think a cheater and compulsive liar like robo's opinion on how a league should be run is worth as much as mine? if you do, please say so and have done with it

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which, you had every right in the world to do, it's your league
you wanted the game to be more balanced and fair

yes, and they didn't

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they could have gone somewhere else but they trust and stand by you - to them and much of renegade there is no clanwars now without Spoony

uh? how many more times do i need to repeat what they actually did? they didn't trust or stand by me, they were so angry at not getting their way (despite me giving them every opportunity to actually explain WHY YOU SHOULD GET POINTS FOR NO REASON AT ALL, and them catastrophically failing in every debate thread) - that they actively tried to sabotage the league through a campaign of lies, rigged polls and manipulation. for example, they went secretly to the clanwars server owners and totally lied about what was going on in the forums at the time to get them to change the server settings.

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clanwars doesn't have to be a democracy

indeed, and the people you were so staunchly siding with didn't want it to be a democracy either, though unlike me they lied to you and said they did. again, perhaps you missed people like simpee and karmai saying whose opinions count and whose don't, depending on how good you are - and, get this, simpee saying whiskey's vote shouldn't count because he happened to agree with spoony.

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but people can easily say that you're a douche for ignoring your player base

sure, if they want to lie. i didn't ignore my player base, it's an absurd and desperate lie to say i did. i went to extraordinary lengths to encourage debate on the subject. the "player base" you're talking about, which is another euphemism for a small number of cheaters and rulebreakers and compulsive liars - ignored me.

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instead of making the game more fun for it and making decision that please it

ah, i see the problem. you think i should make decisions that please people who don't want the game to be fair. well, as long as we disagree on that we won't agree on much else either.

Quote:

saying i support them (clear and simpee) getting the pointmod removed from renegade is a load of shit lol

saying you supported the campaign of lies and manipulation by a group of cheaters to subvert and sabotage someone else's community because they were angry at not getting their way in that community is a simple description of the facts.

it all boiled down a question of whether an individual server/league/whatever is entitled to choose in its own way whether to use the pointsfix or not, and make no mistake, you weren't on the right side. while these cheaters were sabotaging a community because they were furious at the decisions not being made by THEM ALONE, your entire commentary on the situation was telling me that i should do what this small number of cheaters and pointpushers demanded. honestly, i hope you realise how much of a fucking retard you were being at the time

Quote:

i don't think they went out of their way to get people to avoid the TT ladder, one of them made a post saying Everyone forget about this shit it's Spoony and he's stubborn and the ladder is bullshit don't even worry about it

why do you keep using these euphemisms? they posted a huge list of accusations against me, most of which would be worse than cheating if they were true - and every one of which they were knowingly lying about. why do you say "they said spoony was stubborn"?

Quote:

that's hardly leading a rebellion like you're describing it to be

it's true that their attempt to sabotage the TT ladder didn't get as far as their earlier attempt to sabotage the clanwars ladder IN EXACTLY THE SAME WAY FOR EXACTLY THE SAME REASON.

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Re: BHS Ladder [message #438570 is a reply to message #438557]

Fri, 29 October 2010 13:19

Starbuzzz
Messages: 1637
Registered: June 2008

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C'mon now liquid! Renegade is alive and kicking because the remaining players can't get enough of it no matter how hard and long they play.

No matter how many times I swoop down and squish some Havoc or kill a sneaking Hotwire with an Apache (75 times yesterday in 1 game lol), I still am left unsatisfied and so am going to play again now! This is why this game is hard to leave!!!! It is a addictive formula that appeals to many.

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[Updated on: Fri, 29 October 2010 13:21]

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Re: BHS Ladder [message #438576 is a reply to message #438525]

Fri, 29 October 2010 16:29

liquidv2
Messages: 3407
Registered: February 2007

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i'm gonna ask CarrierII or Gozy to split this, i think the ladder discussion is important

Quote:

shall i repeat one of the things i kept saying about how the point bug affected clanwars?

renegade's overall prosperity and survival as a whole has less to do with clanwars than you think
the majority of ren players don't play competitive renegade
i said what i said about the pointmod based on what i've noticed over time

Quote:

perhaps you also remember that i listed everyone who was outraged at the thought of the game being fairer; it was no coincidence that every single one of them had a track record of cheating, pointpushing, rulebreaking, dishonesty etc - something i kept pointing out to you over and over again and i couldn't seem to get you to care about. you think a cheater and compulsive liar like robo's opinion on how a league should be run is worth as much as mine?

you listed several players that openly disagreed via the clanwars forums with your decision to use the pointmod in clanwars
you act as if those players were the only ones that didn't want it used in clanwars; the majority if the league did not want it used, and those players did not make up the majority alone
and don't talk about robo, the whole c4smoke CVS thing has done enough for the kid
let his renputation rest peacefully

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they didn't trust or stand by me,

yah they did; why do you think they stuck around?

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they actively tried to sabotage the league through a campaign of lies, rigged polls and manipulation.

what do you mean sabotage the league?

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for example, they went secretly to the clanwars server owners and totally lied about what was going on in the forums at the time to get them to change the server settings.

that's a bitch move, but if the servers were not set to your settings then by default the games would mean nothing
sure their settings would be in place, but you could put a dead stop to your ladder until they agree to play by your rules

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their opinions were biased and you know that, so why does it bother you so much when they said or did stupid things? i thought it was douchey of you to go against your playerbase
if it makes them happy why not keep it?

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it's more a poor choice of words than a desperate lie, instead you went against your player base
the majority of your league at the time was cheaters, rulebreakers, and compulsive liars? i think we've had this discussion before, because that's what i said the last time you said that
and i already addressed that, because these cheaters, rulebreakers, and compulsive liars you listed at the time were not the only people against using the pointmod in clanwars

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ah, i see the problem. you think i should make decisions that please people who don't want the game to be fair. well, as long as we disagree on that we won't agree on much else either.

if that's the majority of your league then why not? do you host the league to satisfy yourself?

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i had their campaign posters all over my bedroom walls
who said i supported the way they went about it? i never said i supported them rigging polls or lying to server owners to get the servers changed without your permission

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it all boiled down a question of whether an individual server/league/whatever is entitled to choose in its own way whether to use the pointsfix or not, and make no mistake, you weren't on the right side. while these cheaters were sabotaging a community because they were furious at the decisions not being made by THEM ALONE, your entire commentary on the situation was telling me that i should do what this small number of cheaters and pointpushers demanded. honestly, i hope you realise how much of a fucking retard you were being at the time

i disagree; i told you you had every right to do it
multiple times i might add
i said i was confused as to why you didn't side with the majority of your league
it's unfortunate that the small number of cheaters, pointpushers, and compulsive liars were a part of that majority of your league, but that's just the way it is
or was

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they posted a huge list of accusations against me, most of which would be worse than cheating if they were true - and every one of which they were knowingly lying about. why do you say "they said spoony was stubborn"?

did you ask them to make a list? lol
i thought that in one of their posts, like the one where they said "Screw the ladder it's bullshit," that they said you were stubborn or something along those lines
if it wasn't then then it may have been another time, or not at all, but it's something i can see either of them saying even if they didn't
does it matter?
and you should have been thrilled that they made a big list openly like that, it allowed you to publically clear up grievances and accusations
they could have been lying compulsively but what if their accusations were things they truly believe?

Quote:

it's true that their attempt to sabotage the TT ladder didn't get as far as their earlier attempt to sabotage the clanwars ladder IN EXACTLY THE SAME WAY FOR EXACTLY THE SAME REASON.

what attempt? you're exaggerating in an obesely disgusting manner
they said in their own words Fuck the TT ladder, it's stupid, forget about it
you're acting like they led rallies and marched to the EA headquarters with anti-spoony t-shirt and Fuck TT signs
i don't get why you're shouting, i guess simpee and clear must make you really mad
maybe that's why you banned them!
you mean to tell me they made a post saying Fuck Spoony and his clanwars ladder that was similar to their post about the TT ladder post? this is an outrage
what else did they do to sabotage the clanwars ladder? lie to clanwars server owners in an attempt to get it changed? perhaps they're just very confused individuals and weren't intentionally lying to them, but were instead telling them what they believed to be true

[Updated on: Fri, 29 October 2010 16:30]

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Re: BHS Ladder [message #438577 is a reply to message #438576]

Fri, 29 October 2010 17:21

Spoony
Messages: 3915
Registered: January 2006

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liquidv2 wrote on Fri, 29 October 2010 18:29

please don't lie, you're better than that. i listed every single person who expressed their opposition to the correct points system being used at clanwars.cc, and every single one of them - without exception - had a shitty track record in terms of fairplay and honesty. it was a rogue's gallery, remember?

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they didn't trust or stand by me,

yah they did; why do you think they stuck around?

wanting to use my clan ladder on their own terms, without the slightest respect for the person who owns and runs it and wanting to make all the admin decisions themselves without having to do any of the actual work does not constitute "trusting" or "sticking by" me.

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they actively tried to sabotage the league through a campaign of lies, rigged polls and manipulation.

what do you mean sabotage the league?

why have i had to explain this so many times already? i said it over and over and over again at the time it was happening, is it so much to expect that you listen to what the person you're arguing with is saying?

Quote:

for example, they went secretly to the clanwars server owners and totally lied about what was going on in the forums at the time to get them to change the server settings.

that's a bitch move, but if the servers were not set to your settings then by default the games would mean nothing

unless the players reported games illegally, as players like simpee and clearshot already had a history of doing...

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sure their settings would be in place, but you could put a dead stop to your ladder until they agree to play by your rules

i'm sure you'd be firmly on their side if i did.

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their opinions were biased and you know that

again, euphemism. they're cheaters and compulsive liars.

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i thought it was douchey of you to go against your playerbase

and yet every single person who wanted a pointbugged ladder is AUTOMATICALLY much more "douchey" than i could ever be, because they can't be bothered hosting.

as for "going against my playerbase", like i kept saying over and over and over again, the majority at clanwars.cc has a sad history of being catastrophically wrong a great deal of the time, so wrong that had their opinions been heeded there've been at least two occasions where it would've led to the complete shutdown of the entire league.

again, i kept pointing this out to you at the time, and you seemed oddly unmoved by it.

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if it makes them happy why not keep it?

if it would make them happy how about one of them pull their fingers out and host one themselves instead of expecting me to accommdate their fucking ridiculous point bugs that they can't even logically explain?

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it's more a poor choice of words than a desperate lie, instead you went against your player base

yes it is a lie and i exposed it repeatedly the first time around. you kept saying i "wasn't listening" to these cheaters and pointpushers and compulsive liars. what a fucking stupid thing to say. one look at the clanwars forum disproves it; i went to extraordinary lengths to listen to these twats. furthermore, listening to them infuriates them. the thing above all that they seemed to despise about me was the fact i would always read what they said and replied to it, a courtesy i very rarely got in return.

don't say "listened to" when you mean "obeyed". and don't say "playerbase" when you mean "a small number of cheaters"

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the majority of your league at the time was cheaters, rulebreakers, and compulsive liars?

no (though the proportion is depressingly high), but every person on the field at the time you're talking about was.

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and i already addressed that, because these cheaters, rulebreakers, and compulsive liars you listed at the time were not the only people against using the pointmod in clanwars

they were the only people publicly arguing against it in the debate thread that existed for that specific purpose.

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ah, i see the problem. you think i should make decisions that please people who don't want the game to be fair. well, as long as we disagree on that we won't agree on much else either.

if that's the majority of your league then why not?

if that was the majority of the league i would've closed it a very long time ago.

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do you host the league to satisfy yourself?

would that be any kind of criticism if that were true? it's better than hosting it to satisfy the cheaters and pointpushers and compulsive liars you were so robustly defending

Quote:

who said i supported the way they went about it? i never said i supported them rigging polls or lying to server owners to get the servers changed without your permission

and in the dozens and dozens of posts and PMs you put forth on the subject, the one and only opinion you could bring yourself to express was the "you should listen to your playerbase" (or, as we've established, "you should obey these cheaters")

Quote:

i disagree; i told you you had every right to do it
multiple times i might add

yes, you said that, but i don't think you understood either of its two implications. firstly that someone like e.g. simpee has absolutely nothing other than thanks owed to me, secondly the only kind of person who should be criticised for failing to host a pointbugged ladder is someone who wants one but can't be bothered hosting it (a long list of names which does not include Spoony)

Quote:

i said i was confused as to why you didn't side with the majority of your league

i know you were confused no matter how many times i explained it to you. firstly the majority at clanwars has a track record of bollock-brained stupidity, before we even get into the dishonesty. secondly clanwars decisions were being made by the appointed admins long before i had any power there. thirdly... i'll get to that in my next statement

Quote:

it's unfortunate that the small number of cheaters, pointpushers, and compulsive liars were a part of that majority of your league, but that's just the way it is

thirdly, it was never established that the "majority" was against the pointsfix at all. remember? i listed every single person who argued against the pointsfix in the debate thread that was there for the purpose. every single name. it was something like 6 or 7.

Quote:

did you ask them to make a list? lol

i think clearshot took it upon himself to rattle off a list of reasons why nobody should use the TT ladder, since spoony was the admin and we all know how many times he's used his admin powers to pointpush etc

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and you should have been thrilled that they made a big list openly like that, it allowed you to publically clear up grievances and accusations

it allowed me to expose simpee and clearshot for the compulsive-lying cheating little bitches that i've known they are for some time.

Quote:

they could have been lying compulsively but what if their accusations were things they truly believe?

then they would have withdrawn their accusations at the point at which i debunked them. but it's a bit ironic that you're thinking of granting them the presumption of innocence, given that you've spent several years under a delusion that they intentionally created with all the lies and rigged polls they set up.

Quote:

what would the jelly staff do if it turned out you had been cheating for years up to and including the present day?

as to the marching on EA, the only person who did that was roni, but it turned out he didn't think an individual community should be able to decide for itself whether to use the pointsfix or not either.

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i don't get why you're shouting, i guess simpee and clear must make you really mad
maybe that's why you banned them!

try not to be stupid

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you mean to tell me they made a post saying Fuck Spoony and his clanwars ladder that was similar to their post about the TT ladder post? this is an outrage
what else did they do to sabotage the clanwars ladder? lie to clanwars server owners in an attempt to get it changed?

that alone would have been enough; it would have been like me hacking into the jelly box to install the pointsfix. what would you have done had i done so?

Quote:

perhaps they're just very confused individuals and weren't intentionally lying to them, but were instead telling them what they believed to be true

do you think that was also the case in all the other times they were caught lying about stuff?

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[Updated on: Fri, 29 October 2010 17:23]

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Re: BHS Ladder [message #438579 is a reply to message #438525]

Fri, 29 October 2010 18:25

liquidv2
Messages: 3407
Registered: February 2007

Karma: 0

General (3 Stars)

Quote:

i was under the assumption that there was a poll about using the pointmod in clanwars and that the vast majority said No, don't use it
you act as if this alliance of cheaters, liars, and rapists is that majority
clanwars at the time must have consisted of 15 or less players

Quote:

the only way in their eyes to have clanwars is the spoony way, but when the spoony way went against what they wanted they tried to get it changed
they might not show you respect but they respect what you've done enough to want to use it themselves

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it seems to me like you're blowing things they did out of proportion
we have different views on things, which is why i wanted you to summarize it for me so i could figure out what you mean
you won't so i can't be sure either way

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unless the players reported games illegally, as players like simpee and clearshot already had a history of doing...

you're the admin, you can nullify them
i'm saying you can shut it down until the servers are changed back

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i'm sure you'd be firmly on their side if i did.

why do you say that?

Quote:

again, euphemism. they're cheaters and compulsive liars.

you're cheaters and compulsive liars.

Quote:

and yet every single person who wanted a pointbugged ladder is AUTOMATICALLY much more "douchey" than i could ever be, because they can't be bothered hosting.

how many players from cw.cc actually know how to run a ladder? or make one? or think they could do a better job than you at it? troop doesn't count, he's mentally retarded

Quote:

as for "going against my playerbase", like i kept saying over and over and over again, the majority at clanwars.cc has a sad history of being catastrophically wrong a great deal of the time, so wrong that had their opinions been heeded there've been at least two occasions where it would've led to the complete shutdown of the entire league.

you cite the Soul example here, but how would letting a pointpusher play shut the league down?
what's the other occasion? it seems like you're exaggerating the events to me, and since i don't know what they were i can't say either way
clanwars.cc survived for a long time using the original points, and i don't think it would have shut down had you continued to use it (which would have pleased your playerbase, based on the numbers)

Quote:

again, i kept pointing this out to you at the time, and you seemed oddly unmoved by it.

because it sounds like shenanigans and bologna

Quote:

i covered this

Quote:

i wasn't trying to lie about it
what i was trying to say all along is you did not side with the majority of your players
i apologize for saying "ignoring your player base" because in all honesty i meant the above
after watching you slap karmai and simpee and the others around in that topic perhaps none of the others wanted to voice their opinions
muffinjay said he thought renegade balances out with the original points and you tore him up too like he had insulted a family member
in his opinion maybe Westwood intended it - based on what we know i'd say he's wrong, but it's another perspective to look at
why, if in your eyes the majority wanted the pointmod on, did they vote No in that poll?

Quote:

don't say "listened to" when you mean "obeyed". and don't say "playerbase" when you mean "a small number of cheaters"

i was siding with the majority; this band of rapists and murderers and cheaters and liars just so happened to be a part of that majority
i also agreed with the legit and fair players that voted No to using the pointmod in clanwars that you've taken out of the equation
i find it hard to believe that all of cw.cc cheats and lies

Quote:

they were the only people publicly arguing against it in the debate thread that existed for that specific purpose.

so? they weren't the only ones that didn't want to play with the pointmod in clanwars
the majority did not want it - like i said i thought it was a douchey move on your part to go against what your playerbase wanted

Quote:

if that was the majority of the league i would've closed it a very long time ago.

so the majority wanted to use the pointmod and the only people that did not were simpee and his gang of bandits and terrorists

Quote:

would that be any kind of criticism if that were true? it's better than hosting it to satisfy the cheaters and pointpushers and compulsive liars you were so robustly defending

i was defending the fact that the majority of your league wanted something and you sided over them on it

Quote:

the cheaters, along with the majority of clanwars.cc that voted No to using the pointmod

Quote:

the thinking is that there can't be clanwars without spoony
spoony does it right; he may be a douche but he does a good job
from the people i've spoken to over the years that's what i got from it
no one wants to go completely against you and try to do a better job than you
all they wanted was you to not change the way the game played out after everyone in clanwars knew and fully understood how it worked

Quote:

i don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, but i did think that changing renegade was a big deal

Quote:

i covered this

Quote:

it allowed me to expose simpee and clearshot for the compulsive-lying cheating little bitches that i've known they are for some time.

so what's the problem? people had beef with you, you let them lay it out and then you cooked and ate said beef
then you took a beefy shit on them

Quote:

but it's a bit ironic that you're thinking of granting them the presumption of innocence, given that you've spent several years under a delusion that they intentionally created with all the lies and rigged polls they set up.

you're right, the polls brainwashed me
what was i thinking?!

Quote:

what would the jelly staff do if it turned out you had been cheating for years up to and including the present day?

probably say Wow, liquid was cheating for years? how were we supposed to know AHAHAHA
they'd remove me and carry on with business
i don't understand why you threw that idea out there

Quote:

as to the marching on EA, the only person who did that was roni, but it turned out he didn't think an individual community should be able to decide for itself whether to use the pointsfix or not either.

i think he cleared that up when you accused him of that
he wanted there to be a choice; that's why i signed his ren-e-petition

Quote:

that alone would have been enough; it would have been like me hacking into the jelly box to install the pointsfix. what would you have done had i done so?

that's not the same thing
it would be like you lying to jelly to get him to put the pointmod on the servers

Quote:

do you think that was also the case in all the other times they were caught lying about stuff?

i think that you're the bad guy here and used simpee and clearsh0t as your scapegoats

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Re: BHS Ladder [message #438581 is a reply to message #438525]

Fri, 29 October 2010 18:58

ELiT3FLyR
Messages: 119
Registered: April 2008

Karma: 0

Recruit

spoony the wars over bro.. all of the "anti pointfix" people are gone or no longer care anymore so u may aswell stop the reputation rape. u can set the ladder at -80% for playing on a non pointfix server and theres not a clanwar player who would say anything against it

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Re: BHS Ladder [message #438587 is a reply to message #438579]

Fri, 29 October 2010 20:07

Spoony
Messages: 3915
Registered: January 2006

Karma: 0

General (3 Stars)
Tactics & Strategies Moderator

liquidv2 wrote on Fri, 29 October 2010 20:25

i was under the assumption that there was a poll about using the pointmod in clanwars and that the vast majority said No, don't use it

a poll started by a player, without any admin endorsement. decisions at clanwars have never been determined by polls, and anonymous ones are obviously open to rigging... which the anti-pointsfix crowd had already been caught doing.

but even if every single player in the league besides me was adamantly anti-pointsfix, i'd still be right and you'd still be wrong here

Quote:

you act as if this alliance of cheaters, liars, and rapists is that majority
clanwars at the time must have consisted of 15 or less players

hooray, it's dawning on you how small the community was

Quote:

the only way in their eyes to have clanwars is the spoony way

then there's something seriously wrong with said eyes, since i certainly told them enough times that there was absolutely nothing stopping any of them hosting their own league.

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but when the spoony way went against what they wanted they tried to get it changed

yes, like they did when blkst0rm and i banned soul for pointpushing with photoshopped screenshots. they were so angry at that that they - again - tried to sabotage the league (by trying to get people banned on purpose). this is the kind of people we're talking about here, the "playerbase" (cheaters) you want me to "listen to" (obey)

Quote:

they might not show you respect but they respect what you've done enough to want to use it themselves

seriously, stop trying to euphemise... you aren't any good at it

Quote:

you seemed very sure at the time. i kept pointing out that the entirety of the people you wanted me to "listen to" were cheaters, pointpushers etc who had a long habit of not "listening" to the, y'know, rules and stuff. i kept pointing out that the "majority" of clanwars have a demonstrable track record of extraordinary stupidity. again, no reaction. i said the last time it was spoony vs the entire clanwars community on an issue, the clanwars community was so catastrophically wrong that if they'd been listened to, it probably would've resulted in the entire shutdown of the league. EVEN THAT couldn't provoke the slightest reaction from you. no, the only thing on your mind was "listen to the playerbase" (obey the cheaters)

Quote:

you're the admin, you can nullify them

sure, cheating and be punished if it's caught... what if it isn't caught?

Quote:

i'm saying you can shut it down until the servers are changed back

would you think me less of a "douche" if i did?

Quote:

again, euphemism. they're cheaters and compulsive liars.

you're cheaters and compulsive liars.

don't be stupid. i know you're probably a bit embarrassed at who you were so enthusiastically supporting, but don't be stupid.

Quote:

and yet every single person who wanted a pointbugged ladder is AUTOMATICALLY much more "douchey" than i could ever be, because they can't be bothered hosting.

how many players from cw.cc actually know how to run a ladder? or make one? or think they could do a better job than you at it? troop doesn't count, he's mentally retarded

there's no need to make excuses for these people. you can read their own excuses. you may have noticed me directly asking people like orca and simpee why they don't host a pointbugged ladder since they're the ones who think there should be one. simpee said he couldn't be bothered (the honesty came as quite a surprise), orca said he would not lower himself to putting any money or time into running anything for renegade.

Quote:

you cite the Soul example here, but how would letting a pointpusher play shut the league down?

the entire community was firmly on the side of the guy who pointpushed with photoshopped screenshots and lied to everyone for about a week to try to get away with it (including his own clan, probably the worst thing you can do in the clan world). everyone was hailing him as a hero and flaming the shit out of me for banning him. thanks to how unbelievably low the community had sunk, there was an imminent danger of the renegade league being shut down altogether by the site owners purely because of the embarrassment the renegade portion of the site was causing. i can't fault CLAN WARS for looking at the clanwars renegade forums at the time and wondering why he was spending so much as a cent on such an unbelievably fucked up community.

Quote:

clanwars.cc survived for a long time using the original points

though several rules had to be made to deal with the problems the bug caused...

Quote:

again, i kept pointing this out to you at the time, and you seemed oddly unmoved by it.

because it sounds like shenanigans and bologna

sad to hear you were completely taken in by the lies and manipulations of a group of cheaters, but you didn't believe spoony.

Quote:

i covered this

completely unsuccessfully.

Quote:

i wasn't trying to lie about it
what i was trying to say all along is you did not side with the majority of your players

that doesn't have quite the same kick, though, does it? doesn't actually sound as if i've done anything wrong if you put it that way, does it? so that's no good.

Quote:

after watching you slap karmai and simpee and the others around in that topic perhaps none of the others wanted to voice their opinions

well, at clanwars it matters whether you actually have a fucking clue what you're talking about, not whether you can find four people who agree with you. that's how rules are decided, and i remind you that not a single person on the anti-pointsfix side had a fucking clue what they were talking about.

Quote:

muffinjay said he thought renegade balances out with the original points and you tore him up too like he had insulted a family member

no, i said that what he said was stupid, because it was. he said it made sense for ramjets to get bucketloads of points off tanks because they did do damage after all, albeit a very very small amount of damage.

Quote:

why, if in your eyes the majority wanted the pointmod on, did they vote No in that poll?

you're assuming that all the No votes were different people, are you? that's generous of you, given the fact the anti-pointsfix crowd had already established the practice of rigging polls and lying about the results.

the sad part is i thought i'd always made it clear that those polls are worthless to me in deciding league policy. again, if it had been 99% no and 1% yes with me being the 1%, it wouldn't have changed the fact that nobody in the 99% had a fucking clue what they were talking about and were caught lying innumerable times, and it wouldn't change the fact that any of those 99% could set up a pointbugged ladder for themselves if any of them could actually give a shit about the community.

Quote:

don't say "listened to" when you mean "obeyed". and don't say "playerbase" when you mean "a small number of cheaters"

i was siding with the majority; this band of rapists and murderers and cheaters and liars just so happened to be a part of that majority

again, do yourself a favour of don't lie, they were the entirety of the opposition. it doesn't matter how many No votes there were, nobody said it did.

Quote:

i also agreed with the legit and fair players that voted No to using the pointmod in clanwars that you've taken out of the equation

wow, what's with the lying? i went to extraordinary lengths to give everyone the chance to join the "equation", but the equation is a debate, not a vote. you don't change my mind on a rule by saying here are five people who agree with me, you change my mind on a rule by saying here's why the rule is wrong and why this alternative would be right. i gave everyone ample opportunity to do that, they tried, they catastrophically failed. and yet despite their abject failure to convince me that they ought to have a pointbugged ladder, nothing ever stopped them setting their own one up. but no, apparently i've got to do it for him. jesus, listen to what an idiot you're being

Quote:

i find it hard to believe that all of cw.cc cheats and lies

not all, probably not even a majority, but it's a higher proportion than i'd like

Quote:

they were the only people publicly arguing against it in the debate thread that existed for that specific purpose.

so? they weren't the only ones that didn't want to play with the pointmod in clanwars[/quote]
i suppose you're still assuming this vote of yours wasn't rigged like the previous ones were

Quote:

the majority did not want it - like i said i thought it was a douchey move on your part to go against what your playerbase wanted

and as i've tried to explain to you so many many times, there's no avoiding the conclusion that anyone who wants a pointbugged ladder but isn't hosting one (that includes you and doesn't include me) is far more douchey than you assert me to be. that automatically beats your entire argument.

Quote:

if that was the majority of the league i would've closed it a very long time ago.

so the majority wanted to use the pointmod and the only people that did not were simpee and his gang of bandits and terrorists

i've never thought my case here was sufficiently weak that i needed to say i had "majority" on my side, never mind the "majority" of a community as generally dipshitted as clanwars.cc. if you're going to construct a strawman you could at least come up with something i might actually waste my time saying.

Quote:

would that be any kind of criticism if that were true? it's better than hosting it to satisfy the cheaters and pointpushers and compulsive liars you were so robustly defending

i was defending the fact that the majority of your league wanted something and you sided over them on it

firstly, again, it was never established that it was the majority at all. secondly, i kept trying to explain how thick the majority can be. thirdly, if you think my feelings will be hurt by you saying i'm the only person in the room who thinks one thing when everyone else thinks the opposite, you haven't been paying much attention to any of my renedebates.

Quote:

the cheaters, along with the majority of clanwars.cc that voted No to using the pointmod

again, don't use the word "vote" as if there was an election going on or something. there was a debate thread right there for opposition to the pointsfix - if people were too stupid or too cowardly to muster up anything there, don't act like the fault is mine. nobody ever said those anonymous votes are worth a damn at clanwars.cc, and that would be the case even if the anti-pointsfix crowd hadn't already rigging them in the past.

Quote:

the thinking is that there can't be clanwars without spoony

that's odd, i've seen plenty of people on the anti-pointsfix crowd - clearshot, for example - say clanwars would be a lot better without spoony.

they don't put it to the test, though.

Quote:

spoony does it right; he may be a douche but he does a good job
from the people i've spoken to over the years that's what i got from it

no one wants to go completely against you and try to do a better job than you

no, no one can be bothered, and the rare few who do help out as renadmins get treated almost as badly as i do. call it what it is.

Quote:

all they wanted was you to not change the way the game played out after everyone in clanwars knew and fully understood how it worked

all i wanted was for the league to run smoothly with the players respecting the rules and the admins, so i guess we don't often get what we want. the difference between the two is if any of the anti-pointsfix crowd could give enough of a shit about the community to set up their own ladder, their problem would be solved.

Quote:

you're right, the polls brainwashed me
what was i thinking?!

yes i am right, yes the polls did brainwash you

Quote:

what would the jelly staff do if it turned out you had been cheating for years up to and including the present day?

[color=skyblue]probably say Wow, liquid was cheating for years? how were we supposed to know AHAHAHA
they'd remove me and carry on with business
i don't understand why you threw that idea out there

[/quote]
it would be quite serious if it was true, wouldn't it? therefore it's serious when someone seriously asserts it's true, and therefore we shouldn't deal lightly with someone who - in all seriousness - lies through his teeth to make the assertion, with the express purpose of doing what damage he could to (in this hypothetical) the jelly community.

Quote:

i think he cleared that up when you accused him of that
he wanted there to be a choice; that's why i signed his ren-e-petition

uh no, he didn't want there to be a choice. there was nothing in the petition about having a choice. he openly opposed my right to use the pointsfix in my own league.

Quote:

that alone would have been enough; it would have been like me hacking into the jelly box to install the pointsfix. what would you have done had i done so?

that's not the same thing
it would be like you lying to jelly to get him to put the pointmod on the servers

if you insist, so long as i had a history of cheating, pointpushing and trying to sabotage the jelly servers.

Quote:

do you think that was also the case in all the other times they were caught lying about stuff?

i think that you're the bad guy here and used simpee and clearsh0t as your scapegoats

[/quote]
i thought i told you to try not to stupid

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Re: BHS Ladder [message #438589 is a reply to message #438587]

Fri, 29 October 2010 20:56

HaTe
Messages: 923
Registered: August 2007

Karma: 0

Colonel

In the end, Spoony is always willing to say or do something that he know will cause controversy, so that he can have his fun in arguing. It always turns out the same anyway....the opposition realizes that Spoony isn't going to stop until he gets the final 10+ quote respond in, so they just stop posting in the thread altogether and let Spoony walking away thinking he won some big debate. Those who realize this the earliest and stop posting after his posts are the real smart ones tbh. There's only like 3 people who are ever going to actually read all of this anyway, 2 of them are the arguers, and one is a moderator....seriously, I think it's be best if you just walked away Liquid....god knows Spoony isn't going to.

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â€˜All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothingâ€™ - Edmund Burke

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Re: BHS Ladder [message #438590 is a reply to message #438589]

Fri, 29 October 2010 21:11

Spoony
Messages: 3915
Registered: January 2006

Karma: 0

General (3 Stars)
Tactics & Strategies Moderator

i can see you're still bitter about losing that pointsfix debate on this forum. you were certainly angry at the time, but i thought you might have let it go by now.

the fact someone outwitted you doesn't mean they actually did anything wrong. you only denigrate yourself by this pathetic wriggling out of admitting you were wrong about something. it's exactly the same as calling someone a cheater because they beat you.

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Re: BHS Ladder [message #438593 is a reply to message #438525]

Fri, 29 October 2010 22:00

liquidv2
Messages: 3407
Registered: February 2007

Karma: 0

General (3 Stars)

Quote:

even if the rape mob comprised of evil scapegoats simpee and clearsh0t had rigged that poll and voted 20 times each it wouldn't help the fact that people weren't voting for using the pointmod

Quote:

but even if every single player in the league besides me was adamantly anti-pointsfix, i'd still be right and you'd still be wrong here

i don't understand why someone would want something that upsets everyone else
that seems douchey to me; that's all i'm saying

Quote:

hooray, it's dawning on you how small the community was

yeah, it wasn't that small
it's smaller than people think it was but still

Quote:

then there's something seriously wrong with said eyes, since i certainly told them enough times that there was absolutely nothing stopping any of them hosting their own league.

so what? because you say it makes it law? no one wanted to try and outdo you
people have faith in what you do, but they didn't agree with changing the way renegade is scored after everyone had played with it that way for years

Quote:

who is they? you make it sound like the majority of clanwars.cc went against you and blkst0rm and you're calling them cheaters
you're portraying cw.cc as a bunch of sabotaging cheaters

Quote:

seriously, stop trying to euphemise... you aren't any good at it

ur mam

Quote:

i didn't see anyone supporting you
it looked like spoony vs. the world
you labeled the world as cheaters and baby seal killers, but what else was there? you had whiskey on your side, but people felt he was only on your side because he was biased as your right hand man
i didn't get the chance to go from person to person with every cw.cc member and interview them and get their thoughts on the issue; perhaps i should have

Quote:

sure, cheating and be punished if it's caught... what if it isn't caught?

then it's still cheating
if a tree falls in the middle of the woods and no one is around... does it make a sound?

Quote:

would you think me less of a "douche" if i did?

sure; if it's your league and people change it into something you don't want without your permission you should do something about it
you don't have to listen to the majority of your league and use their preferred point system, but that just may make you a douchebag

Quote:

don't be stupid. i know you're probably a bit embarrassed at who you were so enthusiastically supporting, but don't be stupid.

they aren't bad people, it's a shame you'll never get to know them
i don't approve of underhanded tactics and what you accuse them of doing, but i don't hate them for it
not all of clanwars.cc rigged polls and did similar things like that, but am i an idiot for supporting them as well?

Quote:

it might be more than simpee knows or is capable of, and orca is a criminal from the island of australia
all of the clanwars.cc players that would have enjoyed an original points ladder probably aren't all like orca; you assume the worst in people

Quote:

clanwars.cc came to a screeching halt after you banned simpee and clear
was it justified in your eyes? i'm almost certain of that
does the majority of cw.cc agree with it? who knows, probably not
did that lead to the league going dead? yes
you removed the top clan's top 2 players
the clan people were striving to beat was reduced to nothing
you took that away and there was nothing to play for
i don't know what happened after soul was not allowed to play, but people were biased in that case because he obviously cared a lot about clanwars
a little bit too much, if he felt the need to pointpush in order to get ahead
i find it hard to believe that clanwars was going to cut renegade off of the site due to that, but i'll take your word on it
that's quite strange

Quote:

though several rules had to be made to deal with the problems the bug caused...

harv blocking, oh god not that
what else?
and were these rules so terrible that they ruined clanwars? obviously not, if people wanted to keep using the original points anyways

Quote:

sad to hear you were completely taken in by the lies and manipulations of a group of cheaters, but you didn't believe spoony.

spoony made the claim several times but never expanded on it, so there was nothing to get from it
the cheaters and rapists didn't cover it either, so what was i supposed to think? nobody tells me nothin!

Quote:

completely unsuccessfully.

if every clanwars.cc player has the same view as orca then you're correct
i don't think that's true

Quote:

that doesn't have quite the same kick, though, does it? doesn't actually sound as if i've done anything wrong if you put it that way, does it? so that's no good.

you went against what your players wanted
you neglected to side with them
you dismissed their wishes and went with what you wanted
it all sounds similar
once again i'm sorry, my mistake

Quote:

hey, i recall you saying this several dozen times
a lot of people don't enjoy debating on forums, and i'm sure you're not one of those people
it seems shitty to the people that may have wanted to use the original points but didn't feel like addressing it because you would have picked their posts apart and made them feel stupid
the same goes for any kind of debate you have in there
maybe they did have a clue and you just dismissed it - maybe some of them would still like to use the original points if a choice were given
who knows at this point

Quote:

i think his point was that havocs had a way to pay for themselves or earn their keep since they were the 1000 character
the problem with that is what about the mendozas and mobiuses? they have to get way up close and enter far more danger
raveshaws and pics have a harder time than havocs but they have it easier than the volt rifle guys at least
doesn't matter anyways lol

Quote:

so because certain people rigged polls in the past this one without a doubt most certainly must have been rigged?
that would explain why there were more votes in favor of not using the pointmod but it doesn't explain the lack of support for using the pointmod

Quote:

the sad part is i thought i'd always made it clear that those polls are worthless to me in deciding league policy. again, if it had been 99% no and 1% yes with me being the 1%, it wouldn't have changed the fact that nobody in the 99% had a fucking clue what they were talking about and were caught lying innumerable times, and it wouldn't change the fact that any of those 99% could set up a pointbugged ladder for themselves if any of them could actually give a shit about the community.

just because someone doesn't up and leave your community and start their own or make a ladder for original point games doesn't mean they don't give a shit about the community
the fact that they're there at all should say something
not everyone has it in them to go off and make their own ladder or league
most people wouldn't even know how either

Quote:

again, do yourself a favour of don't lie, they were the entirety of the opposition. it doesn't matter how many No votes there were, nobody said it did.

it showed that people weren't supporting your choice but you were going with it anyways
the opposition was everyone that didn't support using the pointmod in clanwars, which was apparently everyone aside from you and whiskey
seems douchey but Hey, it's your league, run it how you want to
you seem to know what you're doing
it's just hibernating for now

Quote:

just because people didn't post doesn't mean they wouldn't have preferred using the original points to the pointmod in clanwars
i'm listening but i don't hear it
just because they (the majority of cw.cc at that time) could not out-debate you on why they liked the original points over the pointmod and why it should be used doesn't mean you can't use it, especially if it makes them happy
would it be a bad thing if your playerbase was happy with what you were doing? i don't think so but i'm not Spoony

Quote:

not all, probably not even a majority, but it's a higher proportion than i'd like

really? because you make it sound like they're everywhere, climbing in your windows and snatching your people up

Quote:

i suppose you're still assuming this vote of yours wasn't rigged like the previous ones were

some polls in the history of cw.cc were rigged - this means that all of them were rigged
correct?

Quote:

you have a system that works, and people know that
you are clanwars to them so they come to you
they're douchebags because they don't try to do what you're doing? they disagree with the lack of an original renegade points ladder but are douchebags because they don't host their own? not everyone knows how to go about doing such a thing or is capable of it
i myself have no idea what goes into it
you're trying to say that they're douchebags for asking you to change what you're doing to cater to them
i'm saying you're a douchebag when literally everyone was asking you and you still said no
had someone else done it and it worked it would have been you and whiskey left there because you two wanted the pointmod

Quote:

i'm guessing as to what you were trying to hint at earlier
you never actually said you had the majority on your side, but you were suggesting that the original-points fans were not the majority
it can only go one way, either one side is or isn't the majority
fuck strawmen, make a snowman instead

Quote:

if it were you vs. literally everyone in cw.cc on the issue i think it makes you a douchebag to not do what they would prefer
even if they're all slobbering idiots and have no idea what they're talking about
that or you can tell them to go make their own league, and in the offchance they did yours would sit empty
as it is currently
Free simpee and clearsh0t!!111

Quote:

you've decided that because people didn't speak up that they didn't support it
did people speak in defense of the pointmod? the people that spoke up against it were people you condemned as murderers and rapists
and why did you crap on zell, he's a good guy

Quote:

that's odd, i've seen plenty of people on the anti-pointsfix crowd - clearshot, for example - say clanwars would be a lot better without spoony.

history has failed to show that
in clear's opinion maybe you're bad for the league
if clearsh0t were everyone then i'd have to agree with you
though that's not the case

Quote:

they don't put it to the test, though.

i don't think clanwars would work now if someone else tried to do them, you're the established person
though i agree, no one has thoroughly tested it

Quote:

no, no one can be bothered, and the rare few who do help out as renadmins get treated almost as badly as i do. call it what it is.

it's clanwars
ahahahaha gud 1 me

Quote:

you may be expecting too much in an environment that competitive
but hey, what do i know, i'm no clanwars admin or clanwars player
perhaps them having their own original points ladder would have solved that problem, but i can see it causing more

Quote:

yes i am right, yes the polls did brainwash you

sad face
though i don't actually know which polls you're talking about, all i know of is the one
and i covered that above

Quote:

it would be quite serious if it was true, wouldn't it? therefore it's serious when someone seriously asserts it's true, and therefore we shouldn't deal lightly with someone who - in all seriousness - lies through his teeth to make the assertion, with the express purpose of doing what damage he could to (in this hypothetical) the jelly community.

sure
i still don't get it though; what's this the equivalent of? you allowing pointpushing or cheating?
you seemed to have an easy time diffusing it so it's not a big deal in my eyes

Quote:

uh no, he didn't want there to be a choice. there was nothing in the petition about having a choice. he openly opposed my right to use the pointsfix in my own league.

in the petition he was saying he didn't want it to be a choice, but later on he had changed his stance
you asked him how he wanted there to be a choice but wanted the choice to be no in your league
something about picking any color, as long as it's black

Quote:

if you insist, so long as i had a history of cheating, pointpushing and trying to sabotage the jelly servers.

maybe you do, and you're just good at getting away with it

Quote:

i thought i told you to try not to stupid

derp?

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Re: BHS Ladder [message #438607 is a reply to message #438525]

Sat, 30 October 2010 02:05

CarrierII
Messages: 3804
Registered: February 2006
Location: England

Karma: 0

General (3 Stars)

A moderator will split this topic soon, I hope.

Goztow and I can't, we don't have mod rights in this forum, for good reasons.

Renguard is a wonderful initiative

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Re: BHS Ladder [message #438612 is a reply to message #438593]

Sat, 30 October 2010 05:07

Spoony
Messages: 3915
Registered: January 2006

Karma: 0

General (3 Stars)
Tactics & Strategies Moderator

liquidv2 wrote on Sat, 30 October 2010 00:00

Quote:

even if the rape mob comprised of evil scapegoats simpee and clearsh0t had rigged that poll and voted 20 times each it wouldn't help the fact that people weren't voting for using the pointmod

it's interesting you're immovably focused on this part of the statement as opposed to either of the two more important parts, 1: the anti-pointsfix crowd had already been caught rigging these polls, 2: nobody important at clanwars ever said that poll was worth a damn thing, whereas it was made clear that the debate thread was central in determining policy.

Quote:

but even if every single player in the league besides me was adamantly anti-pointsfix, i'd still be right and you'd still be wrong here

i don't understand why someone would want something that upsets everyone else
that seems douchey to me; that's all i'm saying

this is because you're a fucking idiot who can't or won't understand a really simple but really crucial point.

the longer your list is of people who want a pointsbugged ladder, the sadder it is that not a single one of them could give enough of a shit to provide one themselves. you keep calling me a douche for running the league the way i think it should go... how stupid are you? why have you never called EVERYBODY ELSE ON RENEGADE a douche for not giving enough of a shit to provide a league at all? you really are thick if this has never occurred to you, even if i hadn't carefully tried to spell it out to your dumb ass over and over and over and over again.

Quote:

then there's something seriously wrong with said eyes, since i certainly told them enough times that there was absolutely nothing stopping any of them hosting their own league.

so what? because you say it makes it law?

i'd rather call it a fact than a law.

Quote:

no one wanted to try and outdo you
people have faith in what you do, but they didn't agree with changing the way renegade is scored after everyone had played with it that way for years

again, this is a really sad attempt to shift the fault. the reason nobody other than me hosted a league is because nobody could give a shit about the clan community. even when they admit to not being able to care enough - as simpee said - or even when they say that they would not lower themselves to hosting something for renegade - as orca said - you seem intent on thinking that what's easily explained by apathy and selfishness is actually caused by something noble.

Quote:

who is they? you make it sound like the majority of clanwars.cc went against you and blkst0rm and you're calling them cheaters
you're portraying cw.cc as a bunch of sabotaging cheaters

i know you're probably having a hard time grasping the unbelievably pathetic low to which the clanwars.cc community sunk during the Soul episode, and i understand that. still, everything i've said about it is true. it was me and blkst0rm vs the entire clanwars community on an issue, we were dead right and they were dead wrong. this is a much sharper divide than the pointsfix poll you're talking about. and they were so catastrophically wrong that if they'd been "listened to" (obeyed), there's a very real chance the entire league would have been shut down.
and, as i've said, because they weren't obeyed they actively tried to sabotage the league by using an exploit to get as many people banned as possible. getting the entire league banned seemed preferable to them than allowing spoony and blkst0rm to ban someone who was pointpushing and photoshopping screenshots. remember this when you talk about how it's spoony vs everyone else at clanwars, cos whenever this happens i have a history of being right and they have a history of being crashingly wrong.

Quote:

i've purposely left my original statement in the quote box, so everyone can see the point i made illustrated again by your reply to it. look at the point i made, about how i just can't get you to show the slightest reaction to incredibly important things, and yet all you can focus on is counting how many people are on which side.

still, i'll answer your statements

Quote:

i didn't see anyone supporting you
it looked like spoony vs. the world

then perhaps you can explain the Yes and Don't Care votes to the poll, given the fact that added together they outnumbered the No votes (and also given the fact that I didn't waste my time voting at all). we're being very generous and assuming that the anti-pointsfix crowd DIDN'T rig that poll, which would make a change. the result would be the majority either liking it or not minding it.

of course, all that would assume that i could give a shit about those anonymous polls, and i think i've made it clear by now that i don't, but if it's the only thing that matters to you then how embarrassing for you that it's bullshit.

Quote:

you had whiskey on your side, but people felt he was only on your side because he was biased as your right hand man

i would think it sad you fell for that lie, but you fell for all the others.

whiskey was originally against the pointsfix, then changed his mind. the anti-pointsfix crowd were simply intolerant of anyone who disagreed with them (just look at the pathetic way they've continually treated me). there'd just HAVE to be some other explanation for whiskey's opinion than "he thinks this is a good thing for the league"

Quote:

i didn't get the chance to go from person to person with every cw.cc member and interview them and get their thoughts on the issue; perhaps i should have

i certainly gave them every opportunity.

Quote:

would you think me less of a "douche" if i did?

much, much less of a douchebag than you, as i've tried over and over and over again to explain

Quote:

don't be stupid. i know you're probably a bit embarrassed at who you were so enthusiastically supporting, but don't be stupid.

they aren't bad people, it's a shame you'll never get to know them
i don't approve of underhanded tactics and what you accuse them of doing, but i don't hate them for it

consider how many times you've called me a douche for running the league in the best way i can, and then look at your own wheedling excuses for why you haven't said anything bad about some extraordinarily fucked up behaviour from the people you've been defending.

Quote:

not all of clanwars.cc rigged polls and did similar things like that, but am i an idiot for supporting them as well?

yes, since at no point from the beginning of the episode until now has it been demonstrated that they even existed

Quote:

it might be more than simpee knows or is capable of

you surely realise that there was a point in time at which i went from not being a clanwars admin to being a clanwars admin, and therefore a point in time when i was a clanwars admin who had zero practical experience.

Quote:

and orca is a criminal from the island of australia
all of the clanwars.cc players that would have enjoyed an original points ladder probably aren't all like orca; you assume the worst in people

no assumptions are necessary, you can just look at the facts. i attempted to recruit for renadmins many times, and the overwhelming majority of the community either didn't apply or did apply and turned out not be diligent enough to spend the very small amount of time it takes to do the AR's. i can count on one hand the number of people from the clanwars community who turned out to be good admins willing to put the effort in. i'm also more aware than most of the extraordinarily pathetic way the clanwars.cc community treats the admins; most of your moderators would quit within a week or so.

Quote:

this is just plain wrong. clanwars died when *i* stopped playing, and i stopped playing because i eventually reached the point at which the unbelievably pathetic nature of the clanwars.cc community made me not want to spend any more effort on them (putting me down to the same level as everyone else who didn't run a league for them)

Quote:

i don't know what happened after soul was not allowed to play, but people were biased in that case because he obviously cared a lot about clanwars
a little bit too much, if he felt the need to pointpush in order to get ahead

and the need to lie to everybody for about a week when he was under investigation, including his own clan. i'd call lying to your own clan about the worst thing you can do in the clan world, and that wasn't even the first time he'd pointpushed.

Quote:

i find it hard to believe that clanwars was going to cut renegade off of the site due to that, but i'll take your word on it
that's quite strange

it's not strange at all, why would someone continue to spend their resources for such a cesspool of a community?

Quote:

though several rules had to be made to deal with the problems the bug caused...

harv blocking, oh god not that
what else?

that thing i kept telling you about some maps being blatantly unfair, so unfair that certain players would leave if they got the bad side.

then these exact same people later turn up crying about how they thing mesa is unfair with the pointsfix, it's enough to make a cat laugh

Quote:

that doesn't have quite the same kick, though, does it? doesn't actually sound as if i've done anything wrong if you put it that way, does it? so that's no good.

you went against what your players wanted
you neglected to side with them
you dismissed their wishes and went with what you wanted
it all sounds similar
once again i'm sorry, my mistake

apology accepted. you realise that everything you just said could be said about the soul episode?

Quote:

let's be clear that in being so encouraging of debate on the subject i was doing the community yet another favour they didn't deserve. the fact that they either couldn't say why their point bug would be better for the league's fairness than the original renegade points system, or that they were too scared of losing an argument if they had said so (jesus, how pathetic is that) is all on them. it's not a criticism to say that i was so diligent in reading everything everybody said about the issue and responding to every single post; you can make it sound bad but it isn't.

Quote:

i think his point was that havocs had a way to pay for themselves or earn their keep since they were the 1000 character

no, it wasn't. i kept saying that it was bollock-brainedly stupid to get points when you're doing fuck all damage; he said actually yes havocs do do damage, just not very much, and that explains why they get such massive points.

Quote:

so because certain people rigged polls in the past this one without a doubt most certainly must have been rigged?

i'm glad that after mentioning these sort of tactics again and again and again, you've finally managed to acknowledge it.

still, i wouldn't say that. you're the one putting all your faith in that poll thread; i thought i'd made it clear by now that i couldn't give a shit about it.

[quote]that would explain why there were more votes in favor of not using the pointmod but it doesn't explain the lack of support for using the pointmod[/color]
and yet even with your dumbass poll thread, you can add up the Yes and the Don't Mind Either Way votes to outnumber the Nos. but like i said, my argument never relied on counting the number of people who agreed with me; it's not so weak as yours.

Quote:

just because someone doesn't up and leave your community and start their own or make a ladder for original point games doesn't mean they don't give a shit about the community

yes, it does. the one and only person from clanwars.cc who actually did do what i kept suggesting was whiskey, and he got no end of contempt for doing so.

Quote:

the fact that they're there at all should say something

...that they like playing clanwars? that doesn't demonstrate a generous nature.

Quote:

not everyone has it in them to go off and make their own ladder or league
most people wouldn't even know how either

i know nothing about coding at all, never stopped me. i've always found there to be two kinds of people in this world, people who get the fucking job done whatever the obstacles, and people who come back to you with excuses for why they didn't do it.

i might add that i offered several times to sell people a league and help them set it up.

Quote:

just because people didn't post doesn't mean they wouldn't have preferred using the original points to the pointmod in clanwars

if they don't even dare say so in the debate thread that's specifically there for the purpose, i don't think i can persuade myself to do what they want.

Quote:

just because they (the majority of cw.cc at that time) could not out-debate you on why they liked the original points over the pointmod and why it should be used doesn't mean you can't use it, especially if it makes them happy
would it be a bad thing if your playerbase was happy with what you were doing? i don't think so but i'm not Spoony

you're right about one thing, you're not me. you know fuck all about how to run a ladder, and you've never shown that you care enough about the clan community to put the effort into trying. yes, if nobody can explain why X is better than Y for a rule, nor can anybody refute my detailed assertions on why Y is better than X, we're going with Y and if this makes cheaters and compulsive liars angry, so much the better. if the league becoming more fair has the added effect of angering people who prefer the game not to be fair, this is a bonus rather than a drawback.

Quote:

i suppose you're still assuming this vote of yours wasn't rigged like the previous ones were

some polls in the history of cw.cc were rigged - this means that all of them were rigged
correct?

again, anyone can see i did not say that. i suppose it's easier for you to pretend i said something i never said, than to face your own stupidity in placing all your faith in a poll by and for people who'd already proven their willingness to rig them.

my position, by contrast, is very simple and has always been consistent: those polls are worth jack shit to me and always were. debate is what matters. if people lose the debate then i'm not likely to do what they say; and if people are too scared to participate in the debate for fear of losing (my god, how sad is that) then i'm even less likely to do what they say.

Quote:

they're douchebags because they don't try to do what you're doing? they disagree with the lack of an original renegade points ladder but are douchebags because they don't host their own? not everyone knows how to go about doing such a thing or is capable of it
i myself have no idea what goes into it

been over this

Quote:

you're trying to say that they're douchebags for asking you to change what you're doing to cater to them

you're better than this... deal with what i actually say, don't lower yourself into pretending i said things i obviously did not say.

Quote:

i'm saying you're a douchebag when literally everyone was asking you and you still said no

and yet i'd be far less of a douchebag than everyone who wanted a pointbugged ladder and couldn't be bothered hosting one, and there's nothing you can say that'll change that. do yourself a favour, just admit you've lost this debate. there is no overcoming that argument.

Quote:

had someone else done it and it worked it would have been you and whiskey left there because you two wanted the pointmod

then what a pity that in all the overwhelming majority that supposedly wanted the point bug, not a single one could give enough of a shit to make that happen. they couldn't even pull together and do it. meanwhile the people who actually DID deliver the goods - me and whiskey - have gotten nothing but contempt for doing so.

Quote:

if you still haven't figured out by now that i couldn't give a shit which side of the argument majority is on, i don't think you ever will

Quote:

if it were you vs. literally everyone in cw.cc on the issue i think it makes you a douchebag to not do what they would prefer

no, it doesn't. i'm doing them a favour by hosting them a league at all; they have no reason to expect to be run the way they like.

Quote:

even if they're all slobbering idiots and have no idea what they're talking about

this sentence is two words too long.

Quote:

that or you can tell them to go make their own league, and in the offchance they did yours would sit empty
as it is currently
Free simpee and clearsh0t!!111

oh dear, you're still under the impression that it was simpee and clearshot not playing any more than killed the league, as opposed to me not playing any more. if the events of the time when they were banned didn't convince you of the reality, how about when a new admin tried to revitalise the league recently with simpee and clearshot unbanned? i didn't play, despite being asked to all the time... and the league didn't fire up. the admin even gave people votes and choices on whether to use the point bug or not, and the league didn't fire up.

ouch.

Quote:

you've decided that because people didn't speak up that they didn't support it

what a dumb thing to say

Quote:

did people speak in defense of the pointmod?

nobody needed to, i was doing a perfectly good job winning the argument despite it being 1v7 or whatever.

Quote:

the people that spoke up against it were people you condemned as murderers and rapists

i know you don't want to admit the simple fact that everyone who did speak up against it in the thread were cheaters and pointpushers and rulebreakers and compulsive liars, but it would be better if you just faced that simple fact.

Quote:

and why did you crap on zell, he's a good guy

what i said about him was true.

Quote:

but hey, what do i know, i'm no clanwars admin

you're dangerously close to a good point there

Quote:

sure
i still don't get it though; what's this the equivalent of? you allowing pointpushing or cheating?

no, clear and simpee on the jelly forum.

Unleash the Renerageâ„¢

Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
- noun
1. the inevitable criticism one receives after doing something awful

[Updated on: Sat, 30 October 2010 05:12]

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Re: BHS Ladder [message #438616 is a reply to message #438525]

Sat, 30 October 2010 08:33

Goztow
Messages: 9726
Registered: March 2005
Location: Belgium

Karma: 13

General (5 Stars)
Goztoe

I really don't see how it is off topic... so I don't know why I'd need to split it.

You can find me in The KOSs2 (TK2) discord while I'm playing. Feel free to come and say hi! TK2 discord

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Re: BHS Ladder [message #438618 is a reply to message #438616]

Sat, 30 October 2010 10:35

Ethenal
Messages: 2532
Registered: January 2007
Location: US of A

Karma: 0

General (2 Stars)

Goztow wrote on Sat, 30 October 2010 10:33

I really don't see how it is off topic... so I don't know why I'd need to split it.

Not necessarily off topic, but it's basically a big gap of useless in the thread, because nobody is going to read that wall of text.

-TLS-DJ-EYE-K wrote on Mon, 18 March 2013 07:29

Instead of showing us that u aren't more inteligent than a Toast, maybe you should start becomming good in renegade Thumbs Up

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Re: BHS Ladder [message #438619 is a reply to message #438525]

Sat, 30 October 2010 10:44

reborn
Messages: 3231
Registered: September 2004
Location: uk - london

Karma: 0

General (3 Stars)

The topic started becoming about the revisitng of the points fix debate and the arguements that have already been had about it.

The thread was supposed to be about the ladder.

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Re: BHS Ladder [message #438621 is a reply to message #438619]

Sat, 30 October 2010 11:06

EvilWhiteDragon
Messages: 3751
Registered: October 2005
Location: The Netherlands

Karma: 0

General (3 Stars)

reborn wrote on Sat, 30 October 2010 19:44

The topic started becoming about the revisitng of the points fix debate and the arguements that have already been had about it.

The thread was supposed to be about the ladder.

This, now with the addition of CW.cc drama. Oh, and I agree with what HaTe said.

http://www.blackintel.org/usr/evilwhitedragon/pointfix.gif

BlackIntel admin/founder/PR dude (not a coder)
Please visit http://www.blackintel.org/

V, V for Vendetta

People should not be afraid of their governments.
Governments should be afraid of their people.

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Re: BHS Ladder [message #438622 is a reply to message #438525]

Sat, 30 October 2010 11:19

liquidv2
Messages: 3407
Registered: February 2007

Karma: 0

General (3 Stars)

it's a disagreement between myself and spoony, i'm trying to better understand him
the ladder got lost somewhere on the first page, and i'd like to get back to it
why are goztow and carrier not mods in this section? "with good reason" you say? i disagree

this topic is less than a page long, the rest is shenanigans

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