| Mesa deadzone fix [message #411672] |
Fri, 20 November 2009 18:27  |
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Spoony
Messages: 3915
Registered: January 2006
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General (3 Stars)
Tactics & Strategies Moderator |
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This arguably belongs in the tactics section, but I think people ought to know about it.
For a long time now I have been arguing for the Mesa "deadzones" to be fixed; I have long theorised that it would make the map fairer.
quick summary of what I mean by deadzones. currently on mesa:
- tanks on the bridge have a tough time hitting buildings, they only do partial damage to vehicles on ground level, and they don't splash infantry
- GDI tanks on the side path can't hit the airstrip ramp, and have the same partial-damage problem against Nod tanks behind the wall
- grenadiers and rocket soldiers can't properly hit the airstrip ramp from the infantry-only area.
it is proposed to fix this in the scripts 4.0 / TT patch. but for some time I have asked for someone to make a quick fix for me so I can begin balance testing it. danpaul88 has done so and I'm very grateful to him.
http://www.renegadeforums.com/index.php?t=msg&th=35205&start=0&rid=2 0608
so far I'm very impressed with the results... it adds a whole new depth to the map. controlling the bridge is just as important as controlling the cave now; they affect each other and they're both crucial. a med or two on the bridge can really make things difficult for teched arties on the cave; it does full damage to the arties and is very tricky to hit back. it can also pose a deadly threat to the techs.
currently, all nod really has to do is swarm the cave with teched arties, and have maybe one person watching the side path... now they actually have to be a little more creative than that.
it also gives GDI a lot more options - grenading the strip is now a decent way for someone to get money for a fast med/MRLS. meds on the side path near the nod refinery now have their full power. and speaking of MRLS, a fast MRLS on the bridge is a valid strategy now, it can pummel the Hand early on.
right now it's not really suited for public servers because all players have to download the map, but it's well worth trying. I have it running in the clanwars league, and i'm also hoping to use it in community matches.
cheers
Spoony
- Clanwars.cc Admin and TT Balance Consultant
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| Re: Mesa deadzone fix [message #411675 is a reply to message #411672] |
Fri, 20 November 2009 18:51  |
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Spoony
Messages: 3915
Registered: January 2006
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General (3 Stars)
Tactics & Strategies Moderator |
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quick link to the file by the way.
http://www.renegadeforums.com/index.php?t=getfile&id=12170&rid=20608
it currently works a bit like a fanmap in the sense that all players in the server need to have downloaded it.
if the server rotation is set to Mesa2, then any player without it will be ejected from the server.
however, downloading mesa2 will not in any way hinder your ability to play the original Mesa when a server has it in its rotation.
(that at least is how it works with this file. i'm not sure what the plans are when it will be included in scripts/TT patch, i.e. whether it will be implemented across the board or not)
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| Re: Mesa deadzone fix [message #411676 is a reply to message #411675] |
Fri, 20 November 2009 18:58 |
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Spoony
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Oh, one other thing that is definitely worth mentioning. I revitalised the clanwars.cc league at the beginning of november, and so far it's going very well - great competition, and almost entirely fair play across the board. One of the things I did was implement the original Renegade points and economy system (aka the pointsfix), and disallow harv blocking. The results are that just about all the original Westwood maps are now completely fair - previously, quite a few maps were not fair at all. most obviously field, under and wallsfly. now, they're all fair (between GDI and Nod, i mean) except for mesa. I don't think it's a coincidence that Mesa is also the only map with a bug affecting gameplay that can be fixed - i.e. the deadzones. I also don't think it's a coincidence that the map is greatly improved when the deadzones are fixed... we're finally seeing the map as it was designed, just like other maps are when the pointsfix is implemented and when harv blocking is disallowed.
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| Re: Mesa deadzone fix [message #411681 is a reply to message #411672] |
Sat, 21 November 2009 00:53 |
Homey
Messages: 1084
Registered: February 2003
Location: Canada
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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Basically I would say that anything you can do while you host you should be able to do as a client, so yes. This would also apply to hourglass and a few other maps where this glitch is prominent.
Homey
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| Re: Mesa deadzone fix [message #411689 is a reply to message #411672] |
Sat, 21 November 2009 02:06 |
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Dover
Messages: 2547
Registered: March 2006
Location: Monterey, California
Karma: 0
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General (2 Stars) |
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| Spoony wrote on Fri, 20 November 2009 17:27 |
This arguably belongs in the tactics section, but I think people ought to know about it.
For a long time now I have been arguing for the Mesa "deadzones" to be fixed; I have long theorised that it would make the map fairer.
quick summary of what I mean by deadzones. currently on mesa:
- tanks on the bridge have a tough time hitting buildings, they only do partial damage to vehicles on ground level, and they don't splash infantry
- GDI tanks on the side path can't hit the airstrip ramp, and have the same partial-damage problem against Nod tanks behind the wall
- grenadiers and rocket soldiers can't properly hit the airstrip ramp from the infantry-only area.
it is proposed to fix this in the scripts 4.0 / TT patch. but for some time I have asked for someone to make a quick fix for me so I can begin balance testing it. danpaul88 has done so and I'm very grateful to him.
http://www.renegadeforums.com/index.php?t=msg&th=35205&start=0&rid=2 0608
so far I'm very impressed with the results... it adds a whole new depth to the map. controlling the bridge is just as important as controlling the cave now; they affect each other and they're both crucial. a med or two on the bridge can really make things difficult for teched arties on the cave; it does full damage to the arties and is very tricky to hit back. it can also pose a deadly threat to the techs.
currently, all nod really has to do is swarm the cave with teched arties, and have maybe one person watching the side path... now they actually have to be a little more creative than that.
it also gives GDI a lot more options - grenading the strip is now a decent way for someone to get money for a fast med/MRLS. meds on the side path near the nod refinery now have their full power. and speaking of MRLS, a fast MRLS on the bridge is a valid strategy now, it can pummel the Hand early on.
right now it's not really suited for public servers because all players have to download the map, but it's well worth trying. I have it running in the clanwars league, and i'm also hoping to use it in community matches.
cheers
Spoony
- Clanwars.cc Admin and TT Balance Consultant
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In StarCraft, when map flaws are found and corrected, the map is re-released under an updated version. For example, the popular map Python is currently in it's 1.3 version. Can we expect to see the same for Mesa and/or Hourglass, or will there be some kind of attempt to update the core map without replacing it? I'd love to see a C&C Mesa 1.1 (When the TT autodownloader is available and this becomes practical, of course).
| DarkDemin wrote on Thu, 03 August 2006 19:19 |
Remember kids the internet is serious business.
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| Re: Mesa deadzone fix [message #412910 is a reply to message #411672] |
Wed, 02 December 2009 09:11 |
Jamie or NuneGa
Messages: 954
Registered: June 2007
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Colonel |
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Arty on bridge is so overpowered now, it can kill the barracks way before a med can drive around and get to it and if the other guy reps the barracks the 2nd arty starts hitting w.f. Plus if someone rushes the bridge arty it can just reverse back and get teched by someone at the bottom.
In 2v2's the map has been made more nod bias, however I think in larger games it may have actually become more fair, yet I have not played any of these.
Jamie is a guys name in Europe...
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| Re: Mesa deadzone fix [message #412912 is a reply to message #412910] |
Wed, 02 December 2009 09:15 |
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Spoony
Messages: 3915
Registered: January 2006
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General (3 Stars)
Tactics & Strategies Moderator |
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in a 2v2 a med has a decent chance of holding the bridge... plus if once you have a med on the bridge, a mammoth in the cave is total slaughter
the idea is you take the bridge even if the enemy isn't up there yet. plus by having someone grenade the strip you can get a med pretty quick
Unleash the Renerageâ„¢
Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
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| Re: Mesa deadzone fix [message #412913 is a reply to message #411672] |
Wed, 02 December 2009 10:04 |
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Goztow
Messages: 9721
Registered: March 2005
Location: Belgium
Karma: 13
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General (5 Stars)
Goztoe |
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We played it in I-CW 4v5. Unfortunately teams were uneven, but still... the map was much more enjoyable. GDI (team of 5) won eventually, but we put up a decent fight. The fight over the bridge was indeed very important.
You can find me in The KOSs2 (TK2) discord while I'm playing. Feel free to come and say hi! TK2 discord
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| Re: Mesa deadzone fix [message #412960 is a reply to message #412912] |
Thu, 03 December 2009 06:54 |
Jamie or NuneGa
Messages: 954
Registered: June 2007
Karma: 0
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Colonel |
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| Spoony wrote on Wed, 02 December 2009 16:15 |
in a 2v2 a med has a decent chance of holding the bridge... plus if once you have a med on the bridge, a mammoth in the cave is total slaughter
the idea is you take the bridge even if the enemy isn't up there yet. plus by having someone grenade the strip you can get a med pretty quick
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unfortunatly grenading the air results in the other team getting the box, with a little luck they can get instant arty on bridge.
Jamie is a guys name in Europe...
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| Re: Mesa deadzone fix [message #412987 is a reply to message #412960] |
Thu, 03 December 2009 10:45 |
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Spoony
Messages: 3915
Registered: January 2006
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General (3 Stars)
Tactics & Strategies Moderator |
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no it doesn't result in that, cos you go grenade the strip if you get a barracks spawn and if you get a barracks spawn you aren't getting a box anyway.
spawn wf > get box. spawn bar > grenade strip
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Most have always hated being GDI on that map, this should help cope with that. Thanks to the both of you for the time and effort to research/investigate and fix this deadzone glitch.
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