Home » Tiberian Technologies / Blackhand Studios » Tiberian Technologies Forum » Request of my TT colleagues
| Request of my TT colleagues [message #410968] |
Mon, 16 November 2009 10:24  |
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Spoony
Messages: 3915
Registered: January 2006
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General (3 Stars)
Tactics & Strategies Moderator |
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I'd like to ask again for the "deadzone fix", i.e. a fix for the bug where tankshells from higher up (like the mesa bridge) lose some of their efficacy against targets lower down.
As many people know I have just revitalised the clanwars league - so far it's going very well - and have instituted the proper Renegade points system (i.e. the pointsfix, as well as the vehicle-alignment modification), as well as disallowed harvblocking. In all Westwood maps except one, this has had a positive effect on balance. Field, Cityfly, Under, Wallsfly etc - all much, much fairer. In Mesa it's had the reverse effect; Nod has the clear advantage. I can explain exactly why this is but it's probably redundant, just take my word for it unless you feel like challenging it.
But I believe this can be rectified with the deadzone fix (the altitude thing). Can I please get a fix JUST for this on its own, so it can be tested in clanwar settings? Right now I'm strongly considering removing Mesa from the clanwar servers altogether. (This isn't SO bad since other maps are now much fairer...)
Unleash the Renerageâ„¢
Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
- noun
1. the inevitable criticism one receives after doing something awful
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| Re: Request of my TT colleagues [message #410974 is a reply to message #410968] |
Mon, 16 November 2009 11:17  |
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GEORGE ZIMMER
Messages: 2605
Registered: March 2006
Karma: 0
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General (2 Stars) |
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Wasn't there already a topic about this? If not, well, yeah, this should be fixed. I always felt Mesa was a tad unbalanced anyways, I suggest removing it until that bug is fixed.
Toggle Spoiler| Scrin wrote on Sat, 24 January 2009 13:22 |
| cAmpa wrote on Sat, 24 January 2009 12:45 |
Scrin, stop pming people to get the building bars.
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FUCK YOU AND THIS SHIT GAME WITH YOUR SCRIPTS!!! I HAVE ASKING YOU AND ANOTHER NOOBS HERE ABOUT HELP WITH THAT BUILDING ICONS FEATURES FOR YEARS, BUT YOU KEEP IGNORING ME AND KEEP WRITE SHIT, SO BURN YOU AND YOUR ASSLICKERS FRIENDS, THIS TIME I'M NOT COME BACK!!!!!!!!!   
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| Re: Request of my TT colleagues [message #410991 is a reply to message #410968] |
Mon, 16 November 2009 12:45 |
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EvilWhiteDragon
Messages: 3751
Registered: October 2005
Location: The Netherlands
Karma: 0
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General (3 Stars) |
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| Spoony wrote on Mon, 16 November 2009 18:24 |
I'd like to ask again for the "deadzone fix", i.e. a fix for the bug where tankshells from higher up (like the mesa bridge) lose some of their efficacy against targets lower down.
As many people know I have just revitalised the clanwars league - so far it's going very well - and have instituted the proper Renegade points system (i.e. the pointsfix, as well as the vehicle-alignment modification), as well as disallowed harvblocking. In all Westwood maps except one, this has had a positive effect on balance. Field, Cityfly, Under, Wallsfly etc - all much, much fairer. In Mesa it's had the reverse effect; Nod has the clear advantage. I can explain exactly why this is but it's probably redundant, just take my word for it unless you feel like challenging it.
But I believe this can be rectified with the deadzone fix (the altitude thing). Can I please get a fix JUST for this on its own, so it can be tested in clanwar settings? Right now I'm strongly considering removing Mesa from the clanwar servers altogether. (This isn't SO bad since other maps are now much fairer...)
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No, everything is integrated with each other. Unless you want to be the reason that TT will be more delayed, it won't and cannot happen. On a side note, the programmers are coding happily towards a beta release, then you can test this without delaying the beta.
Oh and yes it should be fixed (AFAIK it already is).
BlackIntel admin/founder/PR dude (not a coder)
Please visit http://www.blackintel.org/
| V, V for Vendetta |
People should not be afraid of their governments.
Governments should be afraid of their people.
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[Updated on: Mon, 16 November 2009 12:45] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Request of my TT colleagues [message #411008 is a reply to message #410968] |
Mon, 16 November 2009 14:26 |
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I can tell you right now that separating any of the 4.0 changes from the rest of 4.0 is NOT going to happen.
Jonathan Wilson aka Jonwil
Creator and Lead Coder of the Custom scripts.dll
Renegade Engine Guru
Creator and Lead Coder of TT.DLL
Official member of Tiberian Technologies
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| Re: Request of my TT colleagues [message #411043 is a reply to message #410968] |
Mon, 16 November 2009 16:43 |
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TruYuri
Messages: 97
Registered: June 2008
Karma: 0
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Recruit |
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If you're desperate for a fix, our (APB/AR/BHP) rigger Eggman891 found a simple fix before TT fixed it. Encompass the entire map in a box mesh, with the mesh facing inwards. Then have the mesh have "Hide", "Physical", and "Projectile" settings on it.
Couldn't tell you why it works, all I can tell you is that it does. Box can be as big as you like so long as it has the collision settings and the mesh faces inwards toward the map itself. It can be done as a seperate .w3d include in LE.
[Updated on: Mon, 16 November 2009 16:45] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Request of my TT colleagues [message #411086 is a reply to message #411043] |
Tue, 17 November 2009 01:07 |
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Goztow
Messages: 9725
Registered: March 2005
Location: Belgium
Karma: 13
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General (5 Stars)
Goztoe |
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| TruYuri wrote on Tue, 17 November 2009 00:43 |
If you're desperate for a fix, our (APB/AR/BHP) rigger Eggman891 found a simple fix before TT fixed it. Encompass the entire map in a box mesh, with the mesh facing inwards. Then have the mesh have "Hide", "Physical", and "Projectile" settings on it.
Couldn't tell you why it works, all I can tell you is that it does. Box can be as big as you like so long as it has the collision settings and the mesh faces inwards toward the map itself. It can be done as a seperate .w3d include in LE.
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Ermmm this sounds like a client side fix, no? Or is it server side?
You can find me in The KOSs2 (TK2) discord while I'm playing. Feel free to come and say hi! TK2 discord
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| Re: Request of my TT colleagues [message #411117 is a reply to message #411111] |
Tue, 17 November 2009 07:05 |
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reborn
Messages: 3231
Registered: September 2004
Location: uk - london
Karma: 0
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General (3 Stars) |
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| StealthEye wrote on Tue, 17 November 2009 08:01 |
This requires for client and serverside modifications. It's not going to be separated from TT.
The quick&dirty fix is indeed to make some big object (or an object far down in the ground), because then the coordinates being sent will allow lower (negative) values. If you make the map "high enough" it will fix the problem. Note that you will have to do the map changes on both server and client.
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I realise that the first thing you stated was that a client and server fix was needed for this. However, if all that is needed for a dirty fix is to have an object low down on the z-axis, then would an object created on the level loaded event on the server be sufficient?
I don't really understand what causes the problem, let alone the possible solution, just asking...
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| Re: Request of my TT colleagues [message #411154 is a reply to message #411117] |
Tue, 17 November 2009 13:10 |
StealthEye
Messages: 2518
Registered: May 2006
Location: The Netherlands
Karma: 0
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General (2 Stars) |
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| reborn wrote on Tue, 17 November 2009 15:05 |
| StealthEye wrote on Tue, 17 November 2009 08:01 |
This requires for client and serverside modifications. It's not going to be separated from TT.
The quick&dirty fix is indeed to make some big object (or an object far down in the ground), because then the coordinates being sent will allow lower (negative) values. If you make the map "high enough" it will fix the problem. Note that you will have to do the map changes on both server and client.
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I realise that the first thing you stated was that a client and server fix was needed for this. However, if all that is needed for a dirty fix is to have an object low down on the z-axis, then would an object created on the level loaded event on the server be sufficient?
I don't really understand what causes the problem, let alone the possible solution, just asking...
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Nope, it needs to be part of the map. Basically, what the game does when loading a map is determine its bounds. It sets the network encoders to these bounds. That allows a few bits or bytes to be saved for position updates.
Consider a level with bounds (-300, 300) (-300, 300) and (-10, 30) in the X Y and Z direction respectively. A position like (150, -300, 10) would be sent though the netcode like (.5, 0, .33), basically giving the positions on the axes relative to their bounds. This works perfectly for positions. However, for targeting, the game computes the target vector relative to the player's position. So if you shoot straight down this could be something like (0, 0, -20) (assuming you're 20m from the ground), not depending on the player's position. This target vector however, is sent though the same encoder, which means it is rounded to the level's bounds: (0, 0, -10). That's not necessarily the direction you wanted to shoot in.
If you understood what I tried to say, then it's clear that it can be solved by either changing the way things are sent (like TT does) or enlarging the map's bounds by placing an object low in the Z axis. The bounds are only computed for map meshes (I think) or at least only for things that are available at map load time when the bounds are determined, so there's no way to make that happen without clientside changes.
BlackIntel admin/founder/coder
Please visit http://www.blackintel.org/
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| Re: Request of my TT colleagues [message #411215 is a reply to message #410968] |
Tue, 17 November 2009 20:09 |
Jamie or NuneGa
Messages: 954
Registered: June 2007
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Colonel |
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even with this fix the map will still favour nod with pointsfix, a lot of people can hit buildings from the bridge anyway... apart from maybe a mrl on the bridge I don't think much difference would be made from this fix.
Jamie is a guys name in Europe...
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| Re: Request of my TT colleagues [message #411217 is a reply to message #411215] |
Tue, 17 November 2009 20:35 |
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Spoony
Messages: 3915
Registered: January 2006
Karma: 0
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General (3 Stars)
Tactics & Strategies Moderator |
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you don't think a med doing full damage and splashing techs, and being well protected against return fire from arties, is gonna be helpful to gdi?
Unleash the Renerageâ„¢
Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
- noun
1. the inevitable criticism one receives after doing something awful
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| Re: Request of my TT colleagues [message #411234 is a reply to message #410968] |
Wed, 18 November 2009 01:19 |
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Goztow
Messages: 9725
Registered: March 2005
Location: Belgium
Karma: 13
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General (5 Stars)
Goztoe |
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It's hard to say but it would surely make a (big) difference. Nod currently owns the map with or without pointsfix because the techs behind the arts can hardly be hit from anywhere and the arts can shoot the mediums even before the driver gets in.
You can find me in The KOSs2 (TK2) discord while I'm playing. Feel free to come and say hi! TK2 discord
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| Re: Request of my TT colleagues [message #411283 is a reply to message #411217] |
Wed, 18 November 2009 09:20 |
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Jerad2142
Messages: 3805
Registered: July 2006
Location: USA
Karma: 6
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General (3 Stars) |
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| Spoony wrote on Tue, 17 November 2009 20:35 |
you don't think a med doing full damage and splashing techs, and being well protected against return fire from arties, is gonna be helpful to gdi?
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Arty has more splash then the meds, park it up there and it will be equally (if not more) annoying to GDI as any med would be to Nod.
Maybe instead of playing for points you should play for who can destroy the enemy base; after all, anyone one who plays GDI can stand somewhere and lob grenades into the airstip, but destroying the airstrip actually takes a bit of skill, as it requires either the enemy team to be completely retarded, or your team to have some team work. And yes I do have a point with this: when it comes to destroying the enemy base, I have only seen GDI win that map.
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| Re: Request of my TT colleagues [message #411300 is a reply to message #411283] |
Wed, 18 November 2009 10:55 |
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Spoony
Messages: 3915
Registered: January 2006
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General (3 Stars)
Tactics & Strategies Moderator |
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| Jerad Gray wrote on Wed, 18 November 2009 10:20 |
Arty has more splash then the meds, park it up there and it will be equally (if not more) annoying to GDI as any med would be to Nod.
Maybe instead of playing for points you should play for who can destroy the enemy base; after all, anyone one who plays GDI can stand somewhere and lob grenades into the airstip, but destroying the airstrip actually takes a bit of skill, as it requires either the enemy team to be completely retarded, or your team to have some team work. And yes I do have a point with this: when it comes to destroying the enemy base, I have only seen GDI win that map.
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make a clan with the best players you know and play 10 games on mesa against either CAG, H2O or TC on the league, then come back and tell me how many you've won.
Unleash the Renerageâ„¢
Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
- noun
1. the inevitable criticism one receives after doing something awful
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| Re: Request of my TT colleagues [message #411351 is a reply to message #411300] |
Wed, 18 November 2009 17:39 |
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Jerad2142
Messages: 3805
Registered: July 2006
Location: USA
Karma: 6
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General (3 Stars) |
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| Spoony wrote on Wed, 18 November 2009 10:55 |
| Jerad Gray wrote on Wed, 18 November 2009 10:20 |
Arty has more splash then the meds, park it up there and it will be equally (if not more) annoying to GDI as any med would be to Nod.
Maybe instead of playing for points you should play for who can destroy the enemy base; after all, anyone one who plays GDI can stand somewhere and lob grenades into the airstip, but destroying the airstrip actually takes a bit of skill, as it requires either the enemy team to be completely retarded, or your team to have some team work. And yes I do have a point with this: when it comes to destroying the enemy base, I have only seen GDI win that map.
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make a clan with the best players you know and play 10 games on mesa against either CAG, H2O or TC on the league, then come back and tell me how many you've won.
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No one has the exact same skill level, and there are hundreds of strategies to win on mesa, you just have to know ones to counter, or use it to your advantage. Now beings the dead zone affects both teams, I'd just recommend staying clear of it, sounds like a good strategy to me.
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| Re: Request of my TT colleagues [message #411389 is a reply to message #410968] |
Thu, 19 November 2009 00:28 |
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Goztow
Messages: 9725
Registered: March 2005
Location: Belgium
Karma: 13
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General (5 Stars)
Goztoe |
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I hardly ever see GDI win that map, beit on base destruction or points.
Maybe you're referring to bigger games, like 20v20 games where I'm referring to smaller games (3v3 up to 9v9). In the games I play, the simple fact of having a single or two light tanks / arts on the side and 2-3 arts with techs in the tib field makes it impossible for GDI to rush in. The medium tanks need to try to push through thanks to their armour but are hampered by:
* lack of credits
* their armour being shot down before they come out of the warf
* the fact it's almost impossible to splash the techs
It's true the bridge could also be taken by Nod but they'd need 2 players for that and the art on there would be much more vulnerable because its tech can be killed quite easy (no range advantage when you're on the bridge).
No, there's really something to say for the deadzone fix for helping to balance this map for competitive games.
You can find me in The KOSs2 (TK2) discord while I'm playing. Feel free to come and say hi! TK2 discord
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