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| Re: Question for Christians [message #390049 is a reply to message #390048] |
Wed, 10 June 2009 20:01   |
Muad Dib15
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| Spoony wrote on Wed, 10 June 2009 21:58 |
| Altzan wrote on Wed, 10 June 2009 21:28 |
| Spoony wrote on Wed, 10 June 2009 20:25 |
you haven't read the qur'an and the hadith? how negligent! they claim to be revelations from the same god you worship, and they came several centuries after the time of Jesus, so hadn't you better check on Yahweh's more recent instructions to you?
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How about no? His most recent instructions? Don't make me laugh.
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why not, you're making me laugh.
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It's not based on what Christ said. It is a totally different religion based on the same God. Christ never said anything about Muhammed starting Islam otherwise he wouldn't have bothered telling Peter to start a universal church if someone was just going to come along and start a new religion.
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #390051 is a reply to message #390049] |
Wed, 10 June 2009 20:13 |
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Spoony
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yet it claims to've been inspired directly from the same god, therefore it must supercede christianity in the same way that christianity supercedes judaism. because islam claims that although jesus was an important prophet, mohammed was a more important one who received the "last revelation". it therefore doesn't matter whether it's based on anything christ said.
are you following me? you can't debunk someone else's religion just by pointing out that your own unproven religion doesn't mention it.
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #390058 is a reply to message #390041] |
Wed, 10 June 2009 20:51 |
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Dover
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| Altzan wrote on Wed, 10 June 2009 19:28 |
Yes, I don't place my faith here blindly. There are many reasons my faith resides here.
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Care to expand on that?
| DarkDemin wrote on Thu, 03 August 2006 19:19 |
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #390061 is a reply to message #390051] |
Wed, 10 June 2009 21:12 |
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Ryan3k
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| Spoony wrote on Thu, 11 June 2009 04:13 |
yet it claims to've been inspired directly from the same god, therefore it must supercede christianity in the same way that christianity supercedes judaism. because islam claims that although jesus was an important prophet, mohammed was a more important one who received the "last revelation". it therefore doesn't matter whether it's based on anything christ said.
are you following me? you can't debunk someone else's religion just by pointing out that your own unproven religion doesn't mention it.
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fyi i'm the REAL last prophet and sorry guys, god wants me to tell you that the whole mohammad/jesus shit or whatever the fuck we were talking about before was bullshit a test of faith. please consult the book of scientology for your new instructions.
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #390129 is a reply to message #385426] |
Thu, 11 June 2009 07:28 |
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Altzan
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A virus infects earth, crippling and killing humans, the new pandemic. You and several others devote your lives to fighting the spread of the disease, and begin looking for a cure. Soon, another group appears with the same goal of stopping the spread of the disease, but their method is to kill anyone who has it.
Would you want to be affiliated with that group simply because they have the same goal?
@Dover: I have a feeling these are going to get shot at, but here are my reasons:
1. I grew up with it. No point hiding that. That doesn't mean I was brainwashed into it or some other crackpot theory.
2. The religion does not seem improbable from my viewpoint. The creation by God seems more believable to me than the evolutionist theory, for example.
3. Christianity is fairly well spread. If a false religion spread this well, and it simply isn't true, that certainly leaves humanity with something to be desired. And I don't think we're that gullible.
4. If anything, Christianity isn't teaching horrible things (like sacrificing humans or killing infidels). The moral code is something everyone would like to be treated with. (Why would you want to be mistreated or abused, at any rate.)
I cannot imagine how the clockwork of the universe can exist without a clockmaker. ~Voltaire
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #390140 is a reply to message #390129] |
Thu, 11 June 2009 08:45 |
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Spoony
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| Altzan wrote on Thu, 11 June 2009 09:28 |
A virus infects earth, crippling and killing humans, the new pandemic. You and several others devote your lives to fighting the spread of the disease, and begin looking for a cure. Soon, another group appears with the same goal of stopping the spread of the disease, but their method is to kill anyone who has it.
Would you want to be affiliated with that group simply because they have the same goal?
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I don't see what you're getting at here, frankly.
| Altzan wrote on Thu, 11 June 2009 09:28 |
@Dover: I have a feeling these are going to get shot at, but here are my reasons:
1. I grew up with it. No point hiding that. That doesn't mean I was brainwashed into it or some other crackpot theory.
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nobody who's been brainwashed thinks they've been brainwashed. it wouldn't be very effective if that were the case, would it?
| Altzan wrote on Thu, 11 June 2009 09:28 |
2. The religion does not seem improbable from my viewpoint. The creation by God seems more believable to me than the evolutionist theory, for example.
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then explain how this god of yours came into being; was he created by something else? did he evolve into a god from something less powerful? your statement is pretty useless unless you know the answer to this, surely. Know, not make an unsupported guess.
| Altzan wrote on Thu, 11 June 2009 09:28 |
3. Christianity is fairly well spread. If a false religion spread this well, and it simply isn't true, that certainly leaves humanity with something to be desired. And I don't think we're that gullible.
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firstly, christianity hardly the only religion that is "fairly well spread". secondly, given it's history, it'd be a catastrophic failure if it WASN'T "well spread". for nearly two millenia in many countries it's had an iron grip on politics, social structures, and most insidiously of all, education. We have only recently entered a time when you can criticise religious beliefs without something horrible happening to you; if you want to know what that was like, just go to Saudi Arabia or Pakistan. And yet the structure of brainwashing is still very much in place. Even in liberal, enlightened Britain, in the supposedly secular primary and secondary school (at least, not obviously Christian), Christian prayer was compulsory for me every day, and the ridiculous bible myths were taught with the same certainty as what was taught in maths, science, geography. This is brainwashing, and this is probably the shiniest end of the wedge. If the brainwashing kids have been subjected to for nearly 2000 years was only THIS bad, one would expect Christianity would still be pretty widespread. Of course, for most of history it was much, much worse than this.
| Altzan wrote on Thu, 11 June 2009 09:28 |
4. If anything, Christianity isn't teaching horrible things (like sacrificing humans or killing infidels). The moral code is something everyone would like to be treated with. (Why would you want to be mistreated or abused, at any rate.)
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It isn't teaching horrible things?
I disagree with christianity. What will be my punishment for this thoughtcrime? That's right: the most horrific idea we ever came up with. Hell.
The likes of Stalin would kill you simply for disagreeing with him, but at least after you were dead he was more or less finished with you (except when he felt like photoshopping you out of a few pictures). It wasn't claimed that he would torture your eternal soul until the end of time. Christianity doesn't teach horrible things? Several Christians, including you, have either threatened me with this or at the very least alluded to it. And it's sad to see that they have absolutely no idea of the sheer evil of what they're saying. Thankfully I'm a grown man and I don't believe this appalling threat for a moment, but you're still a disgusting individual in making it. And we subject children to this.
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #390144 is a reply to message #390129] |
Thu, 11 June 2009 09:07 |
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Dover
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| Altzan wrote on Thu, 11 June 2009 07:28 |
1. I grew up with it. No point hiding that. That doesn't mean I was brainwashed into it or some other crackpot theory.
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This, by itself, simply isn't good enough. Other people have been raised with far more harmful beliefs, like the children of neo-nazis (inb4 Godwin's law; I'm not comparing the two just making a point, and I could easily apply some less-tainted example). If people believed everything, or at least most things they were taught by their parents, humanity as a whole would make very little progress. It's okay to start out believing what you were raised with (that's what being raised is!), but part of growing up is questioning what you've been taught.
| Altzan wrote on Thu, 11 June 2009 07:28 |
2. The religion does not seem improbable from my viewpoint. The creation by God seems more believable to me than the evolutionist theory, for example.
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I don't know how you could see things this way. The bible is full of improbable/impossible shit, like burning bushes, worldwide floods for 40 days/nights (how would that even work? The water has to come from somewhere), pilers of salt, the Red Sea parting, talking snakes, and who knows what other kinds of crazy improbable/impossible stuff. It's been said that the only two constants in the bible is a bunch of stuff that's hard to believe and the frequent mention of wine (Then one conjectures about which came first in the writing).
If you're up to it, I would like to discuss why you believe the theory of evolution is so crazy.
| Altzan wrote on Thu, 11 June 2009 07:28 |
3. Christianity is fairly well spread. If a false religion spread this well, and it simply isn't true, that certainly leaves humanity with something to be desired. And I don't think we're that gullible.
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There's quite a bit of history behind that. Most of the time, it was spread fairly violently. But that's beside the point. This is a logical fallacy known as "Argumentum ad populum". You can do your own reading on it if you'd like, but the basic idea is just because an idea is popular doesn't make it true.
And I would argue that we are (Or at least were) that gulliable, and that humanity does have something to be desired. I certainly don't think we're perfect, and I'm pretty sure you'd agree with me there.
| Altzan wrote on Thu, 11 June 2009 07:28 |
4. If anything, Christianity isn't teaching horrible things (like sacrificing humans or killing infidels). The moral code is something everyone would like to be treated with. (Why would you want to be mistreated or abused, at any rate.)
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Some would argue that is DOES call for violence against infidels, but even if it didn't, couldn't you get the same moral code without subscription to the religion itself, without the ritualistic and theocratic baggage that goes along with it? My set of morals is pretty close; Don't kill, don't steal, don't lie, etc etc
At the risk of sounding arrogant, your reasons aren't good enough. They basically boil down to;
1) My parents did it
2) It's not impossible (lol)
3) Everyone else is doing it
4) It doesn't harm anyone
..Which, truthfulness of the statements aside, are either appeals to external sources, reasons to not-not believe. Surely, there has to be some better reason you've placed your faith where you have?
| DarkDemin wrote on Thu, 03 August 2006 19:19 |
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[Updated on: Thu, 11 June 2009 09:14] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #390177 is a reply to message #385426] |
Thu, 11 June 2009 11:47 |
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Altzan
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You're more or less calling for proof. I don't have any. Gasp, I must be wrong and I should give up, right? Nope.
and if Christianity isn't true, why worry about Hell, eh?
I cannot imagine how the clockwork of the universe can exist without a clockmaker. ~Voltaire
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #390187 is a reply to message #390177] |
Thu, 11 June 2009 12:23 |
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Dover
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| Altzan wrote on Thu, 11 June 2009 11:47 |
You're more or less calling for proof. I don't have any. Gasp, I must be wrong and I should give up, right? Nope.
and if Christianity isn't true, why worry about Hell, eh?
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I'm not calling for proof. I'm calling for your reasoning behind your beliefs. I'm willing to settle for something short of reproducible scientific results, I'm just looking for something more than "Everyone else I know is doing it, I should too."
I think you misunderstand my motivations here. I'm not trying to convince you of anything--you're just text on a screen for me. I'm just trying to gain a little more insight into the mind of a Christian, and maybe share a little thought experiment with you in the process. You can dig your heels in and give the typical reaction when these conversations reach this point ("HA HA YOU CAN'T CONVERT ME!!1!"), or you can let your mind wander and actually consider the things being said. I promise God won't smite you for it.
And you're right, you shouldn't be worried about hell, even if you are, I suspect your God wouldn't approve anyway. If you're a good person for the sake of avoiding punishment, you're really not a good person after all. This kind of thinking is indicative of the lowest stages of Lawrence Kohlberg's theory in moral development. Even infants avoid punishment and pain by reflex, yet it's a sign of a mature and well-developed individual to do the right thing, regardless of punishment or reward involved (Something Kohlberg terms "Principled consciousness")
| DarkDemin wrote on Thu, 03 August 2006 19:19 |
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #390190 is a reply to message #390177] |
Thu, 11 June 2009 12:32 |
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Spoony
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| Altzan wrote on Thu, 11 June 2009 13:47 |
You're more or less calling for proof. I don't have any. Gasp, I must be wrong and I should give up, right? Nope.
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So we come back to my question of why you sneer at other religious claims, including ones purporting to come from the very same god you believe in. They don't have much in the way of proof either (although the Emperor Hirohito or Kim Jong-Il's claims to divinity start from a better standpoint than Jesus, since we know for a fact they existed at all)
Your earlier statements about faith were all to the effect that if a religious claim can't be proven, it becomes the person's fault for not believing it. "Hopeless case", remember. Yet you only apply this to one religion, and the rest of them be damned. And you think we're the ones with any explaining to do?
| Altzan wrote on Thu, 11 June 2009 13:47 |
and if Christianity isn't true, why worry about Hell, eh?
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Did you read my post? I'm not worried about hell, I don't think there is such a thing. I was talking about the sheer evil of the likes of you threatening people with this punishment for nothing worse than disagreement. If you recall, you said Christianity doesn't teach evil things. I would argue that there are plenty of evil things it teaches; this is just one example. So far you've come to a rebuttal is: "ok, we threaten you with this, but we might be lying". This is an improvement, is it? The gun you mug someone with is unloaded, is it?
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #390236 is a reply to message #390187] |
Thu, 11 June 2009 19:27 |
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Altzan
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| Dover wrote on Thu, 11 June 2009 14:23 |
I'm not calling for proof. I'm calling for your reasoning behind your beliefs. I'm willing to settle for something short of reproducible scientific results, I'm just looking for something more than "Everyone else I know is doing it, I should too."
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Well, that isn't what I said. That isn't my sole reason. And I can't really go into my reasons in further detail. What I wrote is what I wrote.
| Dover wrote on Thu, 11 June 2009 14:23 |
I think you misunderstand my motivations here. I'm not trying to convince you of anything--you're just text on a screen for me. I'm just trying to gain a little more insight into the mind of a Christian, and maybe share a little thought experiment with you in the process. You can dig your heels in and give the typical reaction when these conversations reach this point ("HA HA YOU CAN'T CONVERT ME!!1!"), or you can let your mind wander and actually consider the things being said. I promise God won't smite you for it.
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If that really is the reason for your questions, then no hard feelings. My 'hostility' is more a defense against Spoony's equally hostile grip to atheism. And believe me - I am considering what you both are saying. I just don't agree with some of it - not because of 'digging in my heels', but because I just don't agree. Similar to some of my ideas and thoughts being rejected by you two. Makes sense.
| Dover wrote on Thu, 11 June 2009 14:23 |
And you're right, you shouldn't be worried about hell, even if you are, I suspect your God wouldn't approve anyway. If you're a good person for the sake of avoiding punishment, you're really not a good person after all. This kind of thinking is indicative of the lowest stages of Lawrence Kohlberg's theory in moral development. Even infants avoid punishment and pain by reflex, yet it's a sign of a mature and well-developed individual to do the right thing, regardless of punishment or reward involved (Something Kohlberg terms "Principled consciousness")
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Speaking in terms of my belief in such a place, I am afraid of hell, because nobody is perfect and I am no exception. I've done things that would earn my ticket to hell had I not repented of them. and even though that fear is half the reason for my behaviour, it isn't the whole.
I cannot imagine how the clockwork of the universe can exist without a clockmaker. ~Voltaire
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #390253 is a reply to message #390236] |
Thu, 11 June 2009 23:29 |
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Spoony
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| Altzan wrote on Thu, 11 June 2009 21:27 |
If that really is the reason for your questions, then no hard feelings. My 'hostility' is more a defense against Spoony's equally hostile grip to atheism. And believe me - I am considering what you both are saying. I just don't agree with some of it - not because of 'digging in my heels', but because I just don't agree. Similar to some of my ideas and thoughts being rejected by you two. Makes sense.
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firstly, "equally hostile"? when have I ever threatened somebody with punishment simply for not being an atheist like me?
secondly, if you "just don't agree" that there's anything morally wrong with the above (see my comparison to stalin), then religion is plainly not capable of actually teaching you right from wrong.
thirdly, you haven't made any remotely palpable arguments in favour of christianity for us to reject in the first place. the closest you've come is tell us we're "hopeless failures" for wanting something to back up its claims we think are ludicrous, or to justify its teachings we think are - let's not mince words - evil.
| Altzan wrote on Thu, 11 June 2009 13:47 |
Speaking in terms of my belief in such a place, I am afraid of hell, because nobody is perfect and I am no exception. I've done things that would earn my ticket to hell had I not repented of them. and even though that fear is half the reason for my behaviour, it isn't the whole.
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what things were these, and more importantly, how do you define "repented"?
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #390283 is a reply to message #390253] |
Fri, 12 June 2009 05:56 |
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Altzan
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| Spoony wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 01:29 |
firstly, "equally hostile"? when have I ever threatened somebody with punishment simply for not being an atheist like me?
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I never threatened anyone either. And before you say "HELL", I didn't come up with the idea. And who said I was trying to change anyone's mind?
| Spoony wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 01:29 |
secondly, if you "just don't agree" that there's anything morally wrong with the above (see my comparison to stalin), then religion is plainly not capable of actually teaching you right from wrong.
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Uh...duh. I wasn't TAUGHT that Christianity is right, that's MY decision on what to believe. Just as it's yours not to.
| Spoony wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 01:29 |
thirdly, you haven't made any remotely palpable arguments in favour of christianity for us to reject in the first place. the closest you've come is tell us we're "hopeless failures" for wanting something to back up its claims we think are ludicrous, or to justify its teachings we think are - let's not mince words - evil.
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I never saw much 'palpable arguement' in anything you posted either, just pointless comparisons and unsubtle opinions.
| Spoony wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 01:29 |
what things were these, and more importantly, how do you define "repented"?
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Right, I'll tell you mine if you tell me yours.
I cannot imagine how the clockwork of the universe can exist without a clockmaker. ~Voltaire
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #390290 is a reply to message #390283] |
Fri, 12 June 2009 07:01 |
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Spoony
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| Altzan wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 07:56 |
I never threatened anyone either.
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You alluded to it. "They'll know in the end..."... how ominous.
| Altzan wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 07:56 |
And before you say "HELL", I didn't come up with the idea.
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Thanks for clearing that misconception up 
| Altzan wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 07:56 |
And who said I was trying to change anyone's mind?
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"Equally hostile grip on atheism" doesn't really make sense otherwise.
| Altzan wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 07:56 |
| Spoony wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 01:29 |
secondly, if you "just don't agree" that there's anything morally wrong with the above (see my comparison to stalin), then religion is plainly not capable of actually teaching you right from wrong.
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Uh...duh. I wasn't TAUGHT that Christianity is right, that's MY decision on what to believe. Just as it's yours not to.
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When I said "right from wrong", you are aware that I was talking about 'morally right', rather than 'factually correct'?
| Altzan wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 07:56 |
| Spoony wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 01:29 |
thirdly, you haven't made any remotely palpable arguments in favour of christianity for us to reject in the first place. the closest you've come is tell us we're "hopeless failures" for wanting something to back up its claims we think are ludicrous, or to justify its teachings we think are - let's not mince words - evil.
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I never saw much 'palpable arguement' in anything you posted either, just pointless comparisons and unsubtle opinions.
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So you don't think there's anything wrong with threatening somebody with horrific punishment for nothing worse than disagreement? Once again, see above re: my stalin comparison. Perhaps you think it's pointless, but only because you aren't the one on the sharp end of this evil, evil threat. I stand by my earlier statement; if you can't see anything abhorrent about this doctrine, you simply don't know right from wrong.
Also, you still haven't answered my question about the origin of this god of yours; if you don't know that, it's pretty ludicrous to compare it to evolutionary biology in terms of "more believable". If you're gonna take the creationist viewpoint, then you're comparing the wrong two events. The origin of life would NOT be the point when life on earth was created by god... it would be the origin of god itself.
We have some pretty convincing theories about how the first spark of life arose on this planet (as well as laboratory tests proving that organic matter can arise from inorganic substances); ask anyone where God came from and all they can do is make completely unsupported guesses that defy our understanding of science.
| Altzan wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 07:56 |
| Spoony wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 01:29 |
what things were these, and more importantly, how do you define "repented"?
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Right, I'll tell you mine if you tell me yours.
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My what? I'm not the one who said "I've done things that would send me to hell if I didn't repent of them".
Hide your 'sins' if you're so ashamed of them, but just fill us in on what you mean by 'repented'.
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #390354 is a reply to message #385426] |
Fri, 12 June 2009 14:51 |
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Altzan
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| Quote: |
The difference being that atheists are willing to admit when they don't know something, and are willing to revise their positions in light on new information. Nobody really KNOWS, and nobody can be expected to, but atheists keep an open mind and seek THE answer, not just their answer.
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Yeah, there's a lot I don't know, such as how God came to be. I still believe he came to be, though.
I only posted that picture to counter all the others being posted. Don't take it seriously.
EDIT: Oh, he is able. But if he did stop evil, then what's the point in our existence, if it's predetermined?
I cannot imagine how the clockwork of the universe can exist without a clockmaker. ~Voltaire
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #390357 is a reply to message #390354] |
Fri, 12 June 2009 15:19 |
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Dover
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| Altzan wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 14:51 |
Yeah, there's a lot I don't know, such as how God came to be. I still believe he came to be, though.
I only posted that picture to counter all the others being posted. Don't take it seriously.
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This sounds a lot like blind faith. >:[
And that's a bad idea, especially since that picture is kind of silly. By reducing a complex argument to nothing but two-syllable words and omitting parts crucial to it making sense, you murder your credibility. It's like if I said:
"There was this guy and he made everything out of nothing and then he flooded everything but he saved some of everything and then he was a burning bush and then he impregnated some woman and had a son who was really himself all along because this guy is really three guys and then he died but he didn't really and then he came back to life even though he never died. Christianity makes sense LOL!!1!".
I'd look like a fucking moron.
| Altzan wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 14:51 |
EDIT: Oh, he is able. But if he did stop evil, then what's the point in our existence, if it's predetermined?
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That's an even better question than God's existence (or lack thereof). If you're actually asking me, I don't know. I believe that existence is what you make of it, although I don't have any evidence to support that.
| DarkDemin wrote on Thu, 03 August 2006 19:19 |
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #390368 is a reply to message #385426] |
Fri, 12 June 2009 17:06 |
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Altzan
Messages: 1586
Registered: September 2008
Location: Tennessee
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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Christianity is blind faith. That doesn't mean I should give it up.
I cannot imagine how the clockwork of the universe can exist without a clockmaker. ~Voltaire
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #390370 is a reply to message #390357] |
Fri, 12 June 2009 17:08 |
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Spoony
Messages: 3915
Registered: January 2006
Karma: 0
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General (3 Stars)
Tactics & Strategies Moderator |
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you do realise, altzan, that 'atheist' is not actually a synonym for 'believes in the big bang theory and the theory of evolution'?
It's certainly true that those two theories tend to be more widely accepted among atheists than by the religious, but atheism is a word which says what you don't believe, not what you do believe.
Epicurus's challenge may seem popular, but a quick flick through the Bible reveals that if the book is accurate, God is evil.
Tell me, altzan, if you suddenly found out that you were created not by your parents in the usual way, but instead in a laboratory by some crazy mad scientist who also happened to have killed a shitload of the other humans he'd created, loosed plagues upon the world etc, and wrote a book demanding everybody obey him or suffer horrific punishment...
...would you obey him?
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Yeah, there's a lot I don't know, such as how God came to be. I still believe he came to be, though.
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You and every other creationist. And yet you all still say you find creationism more credible than evolution.
Evolution says the origin of life was the most primitive sparks of life which took millions of years to evolve into anything that you would even see had you walked past it. (and remember, we've had laboratory tests proving that organic matter can arise from inorganic matter).
For Creationism on the other hand... the origin of life is absolutely NOT the bits in Genesis where God makes the animals and man and woman. No, no, no. Creationists all think it is, but if you have an entity with extraordinary power who created all the animals and humanity, and is also capable of spying on both our actions and our thoughts... then the origin of life is when he came into being.
So let's compare the credibility of the two. What's more likely?
1. extremely primitive forms of life arose (we pretty much know how) and spent millions and millions of years evolving (we know how)
2. a superbeing with enormous magical powers, capable of making or ravaging planets, capable of creating life or snuffing it out on a whim, capable of seeing and knowing even the contents of a person's brain... appeared... uh, how, again? oh yeah, nobody knows.
you know, our understanding of science develops gradually. before people like darwin, einstein, newton, democritus, galileo etc came along, our explanations for certain things would've been so stupid that they would embarrass a modern-day child. but they were the best we could do. there was a time when our best guess of how everything came about literally was "god did it". now, we've got much better explanations.
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I only posted that picture to counter all the others being posted. Don't take it seriously.
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Indeed. For starters it uses the word "magically"... hi, we're atheists, you're the ones who believe in magic.
Unleash the Renerageâ„¢
Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
- noun
1. the inevitable criticism one receives after doing something awful
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