Home » General Discussions » Heated Discussions and Debates » Advantage huds
| Re: Advantage huds [message #366324 is a reply to message #366174] |
Wed, 07 January 2009 12:47   |
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NukeIt15
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You need to keep pressing the button to get an updated view of what is being damaged.
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I am still confused as to why you feel this is somehow not an inconvenience. In order to do that, you still have to interrupt gameplay and remove a finger from another control. This is equal to being able to shift your eyes a few degrees?
If you really want splitting hairs, let's dig up statistics on the difference in reaction time between an eyeball and a finger. Any bets on which is gonna be faster?
If it were patched in somehow, or if servers provided some notification of whether or not it was allowed, that would make it fair. That would make it the same thing as the turret camera radio button; anyone not using it would be disadvantaged because they chose to be.
Oh, and nice job bringing up hardware. You're comparing something that cannot be tracked and regulated to something that can be. Given that identical systems and hardware setups are the exception rather than the rule in PC gaming, you're invoking an example which cannot possibly be quantified. Yes, better hardware gives its user an advantage. Yes, a player running on a $4000 rig and a $100-per-month connection is going to have an easier time than someone using a $200 clunker and free dial-up... but there's nothing that can be done about it, unless you have a magic utility that restricts in-game performance to that of the slowest setup on the field.
You can ban modified software, however. The idea is to minimize the advantages and disadvantages so that the contest is decided by player skill and not by outside factors. Any one-sided advantages which can realistically be eliminated should be eliminated.
"Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. Horrid mischief would ensue were (the law-abiding) deprived of the use of them." - Thomas Paine
Remember, kids: illiteracy is cool. If you took the time to read this, you are clearly a loser who will never get laid. You've been warned.
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| Re: Advantage huds [message #366325 is a reply to message #366324] |
Wed, 07 January 2009 12:59 |
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reborn
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| NukeIt15 wrote on Wed, 07 January 2009 14:47 |
Oh, and nice job bringing up hardware. You're comparing something that cannot be tracked and regulated to something that can be. Given that identical systems and hardware setups are the exception rather than the rule in PC gaming, you're invoking an example which cannot possibly be quantified. Yes, better hardware gives its user an advantage. Yes, a player running on a $4000 rig and a $100-per-month connection is going to have an easier time than someone using a $200 clunker and free dial-up... but there's nothing that can be done about it, unless you have a magic utility that restricts in-game performance to that of the slowest setup on the field.
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I was throwing it in the discussion, not trying to compare the two. I t looked like the thread had died, so I was injecting a new thought... I was not trying to compare the two at all.
Also, yes you can do something about it. There is nothing "magic" about it at all.
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| Re: Advantage huds [message #366329 is a reply to message #366309] |
Wed, 07 January 2009 13:27 |
pawky
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| Goztow wrote on Wed, 07 January 2009 11:57 |
| IronWarrior wrote on Wed, 07 January 2009 16:21 |
It's not a cheat, maybe a advantage since for now only a few players can use this, but if it was added in a patch than everyone has it.
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If everyone had bighead, it wouldn't be a cheat anymore either...
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Thing is Gozy, bighead is not a built-in function you can use by pressing "K"...  but building health meter is. (I know there is aiming aid).
As far as these HUD's are concerned, I think mine counters and harvester health is pushing it...they are not necessary.
As far as building health meters, I am much more lenient towards it in public servers.
If you are in a tank and your are tapping "K" repetedly, your tank will still be moving while you can also check building health. Of courese, the screen would be flickering but you can be doing both...
I think it should depend on the servers...they can enable/disable these HUDs.
This tool is great for newbies and n00bs as now there won't be any excuse for them to not look after a building.
[Updated on: Wed, 07 January 2009 13:39] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Advantage huds [message #366350 is a reply to message #366174] |
Wed, 07 January 2009 14:00 |
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Goztow
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I propose you can have it on your screen if you have your screen flickering all the time at the same time. Deal?
You can find me in The KOSs2 (TK2) discord while I'm playing. Feel free to come and say hi! TK2 discord
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| Re: Advantage huds [message #366357 is a reply to message #366350] |
Wed, 07 January 2009 14:11 |
pawky
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| Goztow wrote on Wed, 07 January 2009 15:00 |
I propose you can have it on your screen if you have your screen flickering all the time at the same time. Deal?
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Much easier if everyone gets it. I still think it's should be server sided. Player joines server and if it's enabled, then he/she gets it. If not, then no HUD.
This is like the pointsfix issue...one side saying the other side is wrong and while they surely did make sense, for some, it is a matter of preference whatever effect it may have on the game.
Same thing here...no harm is being done if the power is given to server owners. So why it is so hard?
[Updated on: Wed, 07 January 2009 14:20] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Advantage huds [message #366406 is a reply to message #366324] |
Wed, 07 January 2009 18:36 |
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R315r4z0r
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| NukeIt15 wrote on Wed, 07 January 2009 14:47 |
I am still confused as to why you feel this is somehow not an inconvenience.
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It would be an inconvenience if it didn't benefit you in other ways.
When you pull up the menu to check on the health of your buildings, your character stops in the game. That means you can't move again until you let go of the button. However, the screen you are viewing doesn't refresh on its own, therefore by you holding down the key to view the structures, you aren't doing anything to help you gain any knowledge. You have to repeatedly press it to constantly see it refresh. And since you are flickering the menu on and off, you are therefore still able to move your character.
That's why it isn't an inconvenience.
Now, moving on, you wouldn't be a smart person to look away from your target, even for a split second, in the heat of battle. Even if it is to scan a statistic on your HUD. It can get you killed. Don't believe me? Then how do you explain the people in that HUD's thread basically pleading for the mini-health updater in the center of the screen be added to the HUD? Because originally, that pop-up display showing your health in the center of the screen wasn't apart of the HUD. Many people complained that they didn't realize how much they relied on that little popup and it lead to a lot of people getting killed because they didn't realize what their health was. So if people can't be bothered to notice something as important as the large bar of health reaching 0 and blinking read at the bottom of the screen, then how do you expect them to be able to read a tiny counter or display giving something that isn't very important to your survival?
Compare the size and position of the health bar to the size and position of the mine counter (or building health bars). How do you expect people, that aren't able to see a large flashing health bar, to be able to see something 3x smaller and much more out of the way when they are pre-occupied fighting other people or something simple, like walking to a location.
The answer to that is: they can't. It simply isn't possible, nor is it even desirable.
So, from that, we can determine that people wont be using these counters in their HUD when they are preoccupied with something else in the game. Therefore we can say, people will only use these displays/counters when they are in cover or in a safe place.
However, I've been able to successfully check my base structures by flickering the status screen while in heated battle. Something I can't do by simply glaring at the corner of my HUD.
So if this 'unfair advantage' can only be effectively used in cover or safe locations, then what exactly is it gaining an unfair advantage over?
Like I said before, if you are so sure that it is a cheat or an unfair advantage, then download it yourself and try to use it as an advantage. You will find that it is quite impossibly hard to do.
[Updated on: Wed, 07 January 2009 18:42] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Advantage huds [message #366411 is a reply to message #366406] |
Wed, 07 January 2009 18:54 |
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BlueThen
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| R315r4z0r wrote on Wed, 07 January 2009 19:36 |
| NukeIt15 wrote on Wed, 07 January 2009 14:47 |
I am still confused as to why you feel this is somehow not an inconvenience.
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It would be an inconvenience if it didn't benefit you in other ways.
When you pull up the menu to check on the health of your buildings, your character stops in the game. That means you can't move again until you let go of the button. However, the screen you are viewing doesn't refresh on its own, therefore by you holding down the key to view the structures, you aren't doing anything to help you gain any knowledge. You have to repeatedly press it to constantly see it refresh. And since you are flickering the menu on and off, you are therefore still able to move your character.
That's why it isn't an inconvenience.
Now, moving on, you wouldn't be a smart person to look away from your target, even for a split second, in the heat of battle. Even if it is to scan a statistic on your HUD. It can get you killed. Don't believe me? Then how do you explain the people in that HUD's thread basically pleading for the mini-health updater in the center of the screen be added to the HUD? Because originally, that pop-up display showing your health in the center of the screen wasn't apart of the HUD. Many people complained that they didn't realize how much they relied on that little popup and it lead to a lot of people getting killed because they didn't realize what their health was. So if people can't be bothered to notice something as important as the large bar of health reaching 0 and blinking read at the bottom of the screen, then how do you expect them to be able to read a tiny counter or display giving something that isn't very important to your survival?
Compare the size and position of the health bar to the size and position of the mine counter (or building health bars). How do you expect people, that aren't able to see a large flashing health bar, to be able to see something 3x smaller and much more out of the way when they are pre-occupied fighting other people or something simple, like walking to a location.
The answer to that is: they can't. It simply isn't possible, nor is it even desirable.
So, from that, we can determine that people wont be using these counters in their HUD when they are preoccupied with something else in the game. Therefore we can say, people will only use these displays/counters when they are in cover or in a safe place.
However, I've been able to successfully check my base structures by flickering the status screen while in heated battle. Something I can't do by simply glaring at the corner of my HUD.
So if this 'unfair advantage' can only be effectively used in cover or safe locations, then what exactly is it gaining an unfair advantage over?
Like I said before, if you are so sure that it is a cheat or an unfair advantage, then download it yourself and try to use it as an advantage. You will find that it is quite impossibly hard to do.
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That's the thing though. Knowing the building health and mine count is useless when you're busy fighting. But when you're idling around the base, defending, simply looking at the hud would be only a little more convenient then having to press k.
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| Re: Advantage huds [message #366414 is a reply to message #366411] |
Wed, 07 January 2009 19:01 |
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R315r4z0r
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Yes, and since that is the case, who cares?!
You gaining knowledge and thinking in real life is one thing, but the amount of time it takes you to make your character act is a totally different thing.
We are just talking about a fraction of a second faster of you gaining knowledge, and that translates to absolutely no difference in the time it takes your character to react the way you want it to.
I mean, if you are idling, it makes no difference if you gain something a fraction of a second faster or a whole 3 seconds faster because you are going to react the same way and your character wont somehow magically get stronger, faster, or better in any way.
You just need to realize that, although it is technically defined as an advantage, you aren't gaining an edge over anyone else. Even if you are dead set at wanting to play unfairly with this HUD, you simply cannot do so.
[Updated on: Wed, 07 January 2009 19:01] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Advantage huds [message #366415 is a reply to message #366174] |
Wed, 07 January 2009 19:09 |
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nikki6ixx
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oy...
Renegade:
| Aircraftkiller wrote on Fri, 10 January 2014 16:56 |
The only game where everyone competes to be an e-janitor.
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| Re: Advantage huds [message #366441 is a reply to message #366174] |
Thu, 08 January 2009 00:45 |
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Goztow
Messages: 9717
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Goztoe |
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You choose to ignore these?
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Let me put it the other way: if I told you I removed your entire radar from the hud to the screen you get when pressing 'j', wouldn't you consider it a disadvantage? If so, then I think I proved my point.
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I propose you can have it on your screen if you have your screen flickering all the time at the same time. Deal?
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You can find me in The KOSs2 (TK2) discord while I'm playing. Feel free to come and say hi! TK2 discord
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| Re: Advantage huds [message #366443 is a reply to message #366174] |
Thu, 08 January 2009 02:20 |
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Wiener
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What I don't understand is, that EVERYBODY in here agrees that it is an advantage (If it wasn't why putting it in the hud at all).
Now we simply say that everything you add to the game to give you an advantage is a cheat. Surly not comparable with a hack but still on the same lvl as advantage skins.
"If it will be in a patch and everybody has it, than it ain't an advantage anymore....". Wasn't the intention NOT to change gameplay? As we all know that it IS an advantage, it DOES change gameplay.
The only discussable thing is whether the advantage is big enough to make a big deal out of it (for me its is a matter of principles but arguing about principles in here is useless anyway).
well, last monday I had a game that convinced me taht it can be a major advantage in some situations. We (NOD) played city2 and had a mrls hitting our ref. I had a tank and just past by to repair Ref. We knew that more mrls were incoming while someone to replace me in Ref was on the way. I checked building health (was about 90%) and took my tank to go back to my position other side of the map. 10 secs later we lost ref.
With building health in my hud I'd have seen that the second I got in my tank to drive away, the mrls were in place and that Ref needs additional repairs.
You may now say that this was my very own fault as I left the building while knowing about the mrls. But the point is that with this hud I probably would have saved it ALLTHOUGH I made a mistake that should have given GDI to take down Ref and win the game.
w w w. T h e K O S s 2. o r g
[Updated on: Thu, 08 January 2009 03:22] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Advantage huds [message #366456 is a reply to message #366454] |
Thu, 08 January 2009 04:50 |
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Goztow
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Location: Belgium
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| mǻdrãçķz wrote on Thu, 08 January 2009 12:34 |
Go cry Wiener, everyone have his own Opinion (or how its called lol) And TT wont add that Feature, and you cant stop Peoples from making Advatages or Cheats
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You can't stop them making it but you can stop it being (ab)used.
You can find me in The KOSs2 (TK2) discord while I'm playing. Feel free to come and say hi! TK2 discord
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| Re: Advantage huds [message #366460 is a reply to message #366350] |
Thu, 08 January 2009 05:42 |
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saberhawk
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| Goztow wrote on Wed, 07 January 2009 15:00 |
I propose you can have it on your screen if you have your screen flickering all the time at the same time. Deal?
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That can be arranged. 30hz flicker?
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| Re: Advantage huds [message #366499 is a reply to message #366174] |
Thu, 08 January 2009 11:43 |
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NukeIt15
Messages: 987
Registered: February 2003
Location: Out to lunch
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I'm still laughing myself silly at R315r4z0r's explanation of why repeatedly pressing buttons isn't an inconvenience. You need a finger to press it with, unless you use your toes or your dick, and that finger has to come from somewhere. Let's see... The right hand is on the mouse, and the left hand is covering W, A, D, Shift/Ctrl, and the Spacebar.
Which finger would the guru suggest we relocate so as to not uncover one of the controls vital for movement, shooting, etc?
Hot tip: you can keep evading if your eyes are diverted. Hell, if your peripheral vision is good enough you can even keep fighting. What you can't do is any of the above when your movement keys aren't being pressed or your mouse isn't moving. The best solution is to bind the status screens to keys located closer to the movement controls, like F, R, C, etc, but even then your movement is restricted in one direction while you use your magic index finger to press that other button. That interruption is not necessary if the information you press those extra keys to acquire is already on your HUD, hence the advantage.
I am utterly baffled by the argument that a HUD display is more convenient, yet the default controls are somehow not less convenient. I can't be the only one who sees a total logic disconnect here.
"Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. Horrid mischief would ensue were (the law-abiding) deprived of the use of them." - Thomas Paine
Remember, kids: illiteracy is cool. If you took the time to read this, you are clearly a loser who will never get laid. You've been warned.
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| Re: Advantage huds [message #366507 is a reply to message #366499] |
Thu, 08 January 2009 12:50 |
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saberhawk
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| NukeIt15 wrote on Thu, 08 January 2009 12:43 |
I'm still laughing myself silly at R315r4z0r's explanation of why repeatedly pressing buttons isn't an inconvenience. You need a finger to press it with, unless you use your toes or your dick, and that finger has to come from somewhere. Let's see... The right hand is on the mouse, and the left hand is covering W, A, D, Shift/Ctrl, and the Spacebar.
Which finger would the guru suggest we relocate so as to not uncover one of the controls vital for movement, shooting, etc?
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I'd suggest the right hand's thumb, to press the mouse's thumb buttons (MOUSE4/5, or letter keys if reassigned via the mouse's software)
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| Re: Advantage huds [message #366510 is a reply to message #366174] |
Thu, 08 January 2009 12:56 |
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nikki6ixx
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I demand we ban, or limit all of those people that bought those nerdy G15's because people like me just use the keyboards that are built into our computers, and we do not have access to all macro shiznat.
I also think we should limit people with 1000000000 DPI mice to only having 100 DPI because that shit gives like a 0.00000000002% of extra super advantage.
Oh, and you assholes with 7.1 sound... go screw yourselves, you've got an advatange over us with stereo sound.
In fact, anyone with a computer from like, 2005-on should not be allowed to play either because their shits faster than mine.
Renegade:
| Aircraftkiller wrote on Fri, 10 January 2014 16:56 |
The only game where everyone competes to be an e-janitor.
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| Re: Advantage huds [message #366515 is a reply to message #366510] |
Thu, 08 January 2009 13:14 |
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saberhawk
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| nikki6ixx wrote on Thu, 08 January 2009 13:56 |
I demand we ban, or limit all of those people that bought those nerdy G15's because people like me just use the keyboards that are built into our computers, and we do not have access to all macro shiznat.
I also think we should limit people with 1000000000 DPI mice to only having 100 DPI because that shit gives like a 0.00000000002% of extra super advantage.
Oh, and you assholes with 7.1 sound... go screw yourselves, you've got an advatange over us with stereo sound.
In fact, anyone with a computer from like, 2005-on should not be allowed to play either because their shits faster than mine.
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Overkill much? I've got a G5, a G15, and 7.1 surround sound, with a computer that's from late 2008. Do you really want me not to play that badly? 
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| Re: Advantage huds [message #366518 is a reply to message #366515] |
Thu, 08 January 2009 13:40 |
dr3w2
Messages: 485
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Location: Ottawa,Canada
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| Saberhawk wrote on Thu, 08 January 2009 14:14 |
| nikki6ixx wrote on Thu, 08 January 2009 13:56 |
I demand we ban, or limit all of those people that bought those nerdy G15's because people like me just use the keyboards that are built into our computers, and we do not have access to all macro shiznat.
I also think we should limit people with 1000000000 DPI mice to only having 100 DPI because that shit gives like a 0.00000000002% of extra super advantage.
Oh, and you assholes with 7.1 sound... go screw yourselves, you've got an advatange over us with stereo sound.
In fact, anyone with a computer from like, 2005-on should not be allowed to play either because their shits faster than mine.
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Overkill much? I've got a G5, a G15, and 7.1 surround sound, with a computer that's from late 2008. Do you really want me not to play that badly?
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nikki has the best exhagerated sarcasm EVARRR!!
n00bstories Server Administrator
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| Re: Advantage huds [message #366545 is a reply to message #366318] |
Thu, 08 January 2009 16:09 |
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R315r4z0r
Messages: 3836
Registered: March 2005
Location: New York
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General (3 Stars) |
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| Goztow wrote on Thu, 08 January 2009 02:45 |
You choose to ignore these?
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Let me put it the other way: if I told you I removed your entire radar from the hud to the screen you get when pressing 'j', wouldn't you consider it a disadvantage? If so, then I think I proved my point.
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I propose you can have it on your screen if you have your screen flickering all the time at the same time. Deal?
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I didn't choose to ignore, I just didn't see you wrote that.. (short attention spam + short term memory problems doesn't really mix well when reading blocks of text)
However, I see others have chose to ignore:
| R315r4z0r wrote on Wed, 07 January 2009 14:05 |
I have a test. If you think it is so much of a cheat, then download it and just TRY to use it as a cheat. Because you can try to 'exploit' it all you want, but you are going to fail horribly. If you try to use this HUD as a cheat, then you will only hurt your own game. That's the dividing line and why it shouldn't be considered unfair.[/color]
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In all honesty, and off the record (like there is a record....) I've found this HUD to be more of a disadvantage more than an advantage. The only reason why I keep it is because I like its design and the ammo counter bar. I've noticed it has been dramatically harder notice how fast my health gets depleted. In fact, I've been in battles where I think I've had a tank in the green health area when I'm really in the low yellows.
It isn't really a problem with me though because I'm one to enjoy allowing the enemy to have an advantage over me, as it makes it much more fun to play.
But my offer is still there, download it and try to consciously use it as a cheat. You will find that you simply can't.
[Updated on: Thu, 08 January 2009 16:10] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Advantage huds [message #366769 is a reply to message #366510] |
Sat, 10 January 2009 06:42 |
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IronWarrior
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Location: England UK
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| nikki6ixx wrote on Thu, 08 January 2009 13:56 |
I demand we ban, or limit all of those people that bought those nerdy G15's because people like me just use the keyboards that are built into our computers, and we do not have access to all macro shiznat.
I also think we should limit people with 1000000000 DPI mice to only having 100 DPI because that shit gives like a 0.00000000002% of extra super advantage.
Oh, and you assholes with 7.1 sound... go screw yourselves, you've got an advatange over us with stereo sound.
In fact, anyone with a computer from like, 2005-on should not be allowed to play either because their shits faster than mine.
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I agree!
But if this goes ahead, then I be fucked, since my new PC could power NASA. 
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