Home » General Discussions » Heated Discussions and Debates » Why did you vote for Obama?
| Re: Why did you vote for Obama? [message #361962 is a reply to message #357510] |
Mon, 08 December 2008 08:45   |
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America seriously needs a revolution. Jefferson suggested that there should be a revolution every 20 years to rid of any tyrants and to keep the government afraid of the people. Once the people start relying on the state, as we see now, the people have lost all control. Sure, we can "elect" our politicians, but that doesn't actually change anything.
The government and its intervention is the greatest cause of the problems that we have in the economy. I'm absolutely dumbfounded as to how people can even possibly think that the government could be the solution, too.
I hate the fact that our government takes actions to PREVENT deflation. Apparently, they don't want to prevent the continued erosion of our currency. Corporate ties are much more important. This is exactly why government is inherently corrupt. Man in power is corrupt, and government is ran by man.
You may be right that marriage stemmed from religion. I don't, personally, think so, but either way it wasn't Christianity that started it. Christianity cannot legitimately claim ownership of marriage. Ultimately, what I think needs to happen is that the government completely fucks off from marriage. That way churches can deny marriage to whomever they like. If marriage is a religious institution, then government CANNOT have its hand in it. At least, not legally.
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| Re: Why did you vote for Obama? [message #361963 is a reply to message #357510] |
Mon, 08 December 2008 08:55 |
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Jecht
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I can honestly say I agree. The nation has become dependent on the federal government. I love the quote from the movie "V" for Vendetta: Governments should fear their people, not the other way around.
While deflation can lead to economic turmoil, right now deflation would probably do the dollar some good. I'm adamantly opposed to these bailouts that have transpired, mostly because we're (the taxpayers) are handing out money the United States doesn't have, and we may never see again. Let poorly run corporations die, instead of rewarding them for incompetence.
When anything from a household to a country lives outside its means, then debt can begin to control everything you have.
I'm not 100% positive marriage stemmed from religion. I just assumed it. Looking back, what I said was pretty parochial.
[Updated on: Mon, 08 December 2008 08:59] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Why did you vote for Obama? [message #362014 is a reply to message #361945] |
Mon, 08 December 2008 18:17 |
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Spoony
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| Jecht wrote on Mon, 08 December 2008 07:16 |
I'm still against Gay marriage, but not against Gay rights. In my personal opinion (this is why I'm not a politician), I believe marriage stems from religion and is separate.
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Marriage was going on before anyone was keeping proper written records. So you can guess that, and your guess would be no worse than mine, but one thing we can say for certain is that it was no religion that's practiced today in any major capacity, because Christianity, Judaism etc do not predate written records.
| Jecht wrote on Mon, 08 December 2008 07:16 |
I'll just be content for now to let politicians interpret what they see fit is a right granted by the constitution. I'll let scientists hash out whether it's a choice or biological.
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I'm no scientist either, yet it seems blindingly obvious that homosexuality is not a choice. Don't ask me though... ask a gay person.
As for the rest of your post, if the only religious activity going on were friendly, inclusive local services, then atheists like me would have no complaint to make about religion. My objection to Christianity is not just that I find it very difficult to believe (even as a child, and like I said it was "taught" to me with the same certainty as what was being taught in, say, physics), it's that it contains moral teachings that I find absolutely appalling. See: vicarious redemption, inheritance of punishment, the ghastly idea that one can be punished for an eternity after death, etc.
Still, no matter how primitive and barbaric I find this stuff to be, you are very welcome to believe it as long as you leave other people alone. Sadly religion can never be trusted to do this, and until it does you can't fault me for supporting the cause of secularism. In other words, freedom of religion - no problem - just remember freedom from religion too. It has no place interfering with other peoples' lives, as it does everywhere, all the time.
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| Re: Why did you vote for Obama? [message #362042 is a reply to message #362032] |
Mon, 08 December 2008 19:27 |
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Spoony
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Please specify how secularism "affects" you, at least in ways you see as negative.
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[Updated on: Mon, 08 December 2008 19:28] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Why did you vote for Obama? [message #362064 is a reply to message #357510] |
Mon, 08 December 2008 19:53 |
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You're an idiot, and I'm not even an atheist.
Yes, I agree with you on the whole idea that it's somehow "absurd" to believe in God, but you can believe that matter happened to exist prior to the Big Bang. You can believe in one or the other just fine, but to then suddenly laugh at the other's belief on the issue is hypocritical in a sense.
Though, I find your assumption that atheism is worshiping science to be utterly stupefying. If I use math to figure out my accounting, am I suddenly worshiping math? Just because you use a proven method to figure out answers doesn't mean anyone's worshiping the method. It's just a tried and true method. As for science, it answers A LOT of questions.
Nobody's saying that because science can't prove it that it's disproven. You can't use science to disprove something that isn't physical. I'm sure Spoony will completely agree with me on that. The only thing we can say is that it's NOT proven, and it's nothing that you can even deny. Otherwise, I'm sure you would have given us physical evidence, by now, to support that God does, in fact, exist.
One last thing, just because you make stupid remarks that cause us to refute them doesn't mean that we hate Christians and are out to destroy them. Not at all. In fact, I respect my family's faith and their beliefs. I have no intention to destroy their or anyone else's beliefs. However, I am trying to destroy blatant ignorant on the part of self-righteous Christians.
Edit: Yes, I realize you never said "destroy". You can replace it with whatever you like. "Bash", "disprove", "insult", etc... I don't care. You get my fucking point.
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[Updated on: Mon, 08 December 2008 19:55] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Why did you vote for Obama? [message #362095 is a reply to message #357510] |
Mon, 08 December 2008 21:31 |
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NukeIt15
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I've said it before: Atheism is no more a religion than ponotheism or polytheism. It is a term which allows you to categorize a set of beliefs; all it tells you is how many gods a person believes in, and nothing else besides. One could be an atheist and believe in any number of supernatural beings, places, forces, events, whatever- as long as none of them are gods. By the same token, you could be an atheist who abhors science and is a true believer in intelligent design (provided that said design was the doing of an advanced being and not a divine being).
Or are we suddenly to assume that all monotheists follow the same set of beliefs? Which faith gets to carry the banner, hmm?
Generalization breeds ignorance no matter who uses it.
"Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. Horrid mischief would ensue were (the law-abiding) deprived of the use of them." - Thomas Paine
Remember, kids: illiteracy is cool. If you took the time to read this, you are clearly a loser who will never get laid. You've been warned.
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| Re: Why did you vote for Obama? [message #362104 is a reply to message #362098] |
Mon, 08 December 2008 22:01 |
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| Darkknight wrote on Mon, 08 December 2008 23:44 |
| cheesesoda wrote on Mon, 08 December 2008 22:15 |
When did I say that your belief is absurd? When did I say matter came from nothing? You're assuming shit again, thus affirming my name calling. Did you even read anything I said, or did you just focus on me calling you an idiot?
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i don't remember ever using your name in any of my posts but for some reason you've assumed i meant you. the post i made where you responded to it was a general statement. you seem to have a personal agenda toward me for some reason.
Whatever I don't really care. It's not like you care about what anyone else here says either.
you either believe or you don't and you wont convince the other side to change just from reading the forums.
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Seeing as I was the first response to your post, and you posted immediately after me, it's quite obvious to assume that you were speaking to me. After all, I used an insult.
Libertarian Party | The King's Throne | The Soda Shop
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| Re: Why did you vote for Obama? [message #362106 is a reply to message #362104] |
Mon, 08 December 2008 22:03 |
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DarkKnight
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| cheesesoda wrote on Mon, 08 December 2008 23:01 |
| Darkknight wrote on Mon, 08 December 2008 23:44 |
| cheesesoda wrote on Mon, 08 December 2008 22:15 |
When did I say that your belief is absurd? When did I say matter came from nothing? You're assuming shit again, thus affirming my name calling. Did you even read anything I said, or did you just focus on me calling you an idiot?
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i don't remember ever using your name in any of my posts but for some reason you've assumed i meant you. the post i made where you responded to it was a general statement. you seem to have a personal agenda toward me for some reason.
Whatever I don't really care. It's not like you care about what anyone else here says either.
you either believe or you don't and you wont convince the other side to change just from reading the forums.
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Seeing as I was the first response to your post, and you posted immediately after me, it's quite obvious to assume that you were speaking to me. After all, I used an insult.
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no i believe i said are their any OTHER name callers. as in i see you can't post without calling names. is there anyone else?
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| Re: Why did you vote for Obama? [message #362136 is a reply to message #362042] |
Tue, 09 December 2008 04:09 |
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Jecht
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| Spoony wrote on Mon, 08 December 2008 20:27 |
Please specify how secularism "affects" you, at least in ways you see as negative.
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There are a number of ways actually, and they take many mediums.
-School, in that I am taught things believed untrue, or not the full truth.
-Television, shows are becoming much more graphic, where some things are...unnecessary. There is a shock factor that I think some shows try to adhere to. Which is fine, it draws viewers so I can understand why they do it.
-Internet, let's face it, sometimes we come across images we'd rather not have and had no intention of seeing.
-Radio, on stations I listen to, there can often be vulgar things. Luckily the radio came with a dial and a power button when I think it's too much 
-Advertising, Ever walk through a mall? Some images there that are...unnecessary to say the least. I'm not at all what you'd call a prude, so I personally am not offended by them. I'm just saying that according to Luke, it's a sin for me to look at them.
-Everywhere, there are various things that test faith. I have to have a strong enough will to overcome them though, for the sake of my savior. Sometimes those are a blessing, especially in the case when the misinformed can be informed.
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| Re: Why did you vote for Obama? [message #362154 is a reply to message #362064] |
Tue, 09 December 2008 07:11 |
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DarkKnight
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| cheesesoda wrote on Mon, 08 December 2008 20:53 |
You're an idiot, and I'm not even an atheist.
Yes, I agree with you on the whole idea that it's somehow "absurd" to believe in God, but you can believe that matter happened to exist prior to the Big Bang. You can believe in one or the other just fine, but to then suddenly laugh at the other's belief on the issue is hypocritical in a sense.
Though, I find your assumption that atheism is worshiping science to be utterly stupefying. If I use math to figure out my accounting, am I suddenly worshiping math? Just because you use a proven method to figure out answers doesn't mean anyone's worshiping the method. It's just a tried and true method. As for science, it answers A LOT of questions.
Nobody's saying that because science can't prove it that it's disproven. You can't use science to disprove something that isn't physical. I'm sure Spoony will completely agree with me on that. The only thing we can say is that it's NOT proven, and it's nothing that you can even deny. Otherwise, I'm sure you would have given us physical evidence, by now, to support that God does, in fact, exist.
One last thing, just because you make stupid remarks that cause us to refute them doesn't mean that we hate Christians and are out to destroy them. Not at all. In fact, I respect my family's faith and their beliefs. I have no intention to destroy their or anyone else's beliefs. However, I am trying to destroy blatant ignorant on the part of self-righteous Christians.
Edit: Yes, I realize you never said "destroy". You can replace it with whatever you like. "Bash", "disprove", "insult", etc... I don't care. You get my fucking point.
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you said i never responded so i will. I never said I thought it was absurd I believe in God so don't twist my words around and stick to what was posted.
Excuse me the last 4 pages of this entire thread is you all laughing at Christians for what they believe, but you find it wrong for me to laugh at your wacked ideas that we all came from nothing.
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However, I am trying to destroy blatant ignorant on the part of self-righteous Christians.
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I will have to agree with you on this. Religion is man made that's why their are billions of them all thinking they got it right. Jesus didn't change a persons heart by preaching them to death he first acted on their need then they wanted to know who he was. To many Christians think if you smack someone upside the head enough with the bible they will get it but in fact it only gives them a headache.
All I was trying to say with my post is how funny it is that those who discredit their being a God also in the same breathe wants us to swallow the fact that all this came from nothing and to believe in Evolution which is still just a theory.
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| Re: Why did you vote for Obama? [message #362158 is a reply to message #362045] |
Tue, 09 December 2008 07:41 |
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Spoony
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You guys make this so easy.
| Darkknight wrote on Mon, 08 December 2008 20:41 |
I find it amusing listening to and reading from atheist. To them there can't possibly be a God so they have to figure out some way to make it all makes sense.
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I don't say "there can't possibly be a God". I do say that it is a staggeringly unlikely hypothesis, and I do say there is absolutely no evidence for it. Still, in science you can never absolutely disprove the existence of something. You cannot prove the tooth fairy doesn't exist; we would still shake our head sadly at an adult who seriously believed in it.
As for "have to figure out some way to make it all make sense"... what a strange way of putting it. Science is about looking at the world, trying to figure out how it works, and testing your ideas against the facts, and developing your ideas when they are not correct. Religion is more along the lines of "this book was written over a thousand years ago, we aren't sure who by, we aren't sure exactly when, we don't know how they knew what to write, we don't know whether they had an agenda which influenced their writing... therefore it's true"
Finally, I would repeat something I have said several times already. I am open to the idea that there may be a God. If you prove to me there is a God and that every word of the Bible was true, I would accept it. But I would not worship him and I would not become a Christian. I have already said that the main reason I am not a Christian isn't because I find it all very difficult to believe (although that's part of it). The main reason is that I find many of its moral teachings absolutely despicable. If the Bible was true, God would be the most staggeringly evil entity that ever existed. But then, unlike you I've actually read the Bible.
| Darkknight wrote on Mon, 08 December 2008 20:41 |
They have such a hard time believing in God but have absolutely no problem believing there was nothing then one day all the nothingness banged and everything accidently fell into perfect order, the fish jumped out of the sea, turned into monkeys and one day decided to stand up and talk, boom we have man. That they have no problem believing.
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Quite clearly you have not been properly taught evolution or the origin of life. I'll come back to that.
| Darkknight wrote on Mon, 08 December 2008 20:41 |
Atheist in a way worship science. They follow science as the end all knowledge of everything.
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Science is the pursuit of things you don't know yet, and the understanding of things we see. You're just using biased wording.
| Darkknight wrote on Mon, 08 December 2008 20:41 |
If science has no proof then it cannot possibly be true. Science once believed the earth was flat until it was proven otherwise.
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Like I keep saying, the whole point about science is that it develops as we learn more. Religion doesn't. See my post earlier. When the Bible was written, we didn't know fuck all about the word. Now we know about the shape and composition of the planet, that it is still cooling with a molten core and fissures in its crust, and a turbulent weather system. These are completely valid explanations for hurricanes, earthquakes, volcanoes etc. We also know about bacteria, germs etc; which explains most diseases. When the Bible was written, we knew none of the above, so when the shit hits the fan and a city gets flattened, why not think it was the wrath of a celestial super-bully? Quite probably nobody could think of a better explanation.
Now, we can!
What's more (and very revealing) is the fact that religion has always stood in the way of scientific discovery, and still does. It makes me chuckle to hear religious people talk about how "LOL YOU USED TO THINK THE EARTH WAS FLAT". It took arduous scientific study from dedicated people to understand things about the world and universe we live in; the shape and nature of the world, what things are made of and how they work. There are countless examples of scientific discovery which were fanatically opposed by religion; Darwin, Newton, Galileo, Democritus, Einstein...
Yes, science used to think the earth was flat. If religion had its way, we probably still would.
| Darkknight wrote on Mon, 08 December 2008 20:41 |
I'm sure Spoony and some others will rip this apart to and show the true hatred they have toward Christians while they say we lack tolerance toward their views.
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No, I'll rip it apart to show you how wrong you are in a great many places. That's the point of an argument, and if you can't handle it, don't join one.
As for hatred towards Christians, I've already said it and I'll say it again. I find your beliefs ludicrous and in many cases horribly barbaric, but if all you do is believe what you want to believe and leave other people alone, I've no issue with you. Sadly the religious never seem capable of doing this, but I have no gripe at all with the man on the street who prays once a week, so long as I'm not the one paying for it. (which I am)
| Darkknight wrote on Mon, 08 December 2008 20:41 |
| u6795 wrote on Mon, 08 December 2008 05:41 |
and then use the excuse OH IT'S ONLY UNTIL YOU'RE 18 AND THEN YOU CAN MAKE YOUR OWN CHOICES. That's absolutely stupid. By the time you turn 18 most kids are brainwashed, and never had a choice whatsoever. It's disgusting.
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You can say this about any parent whether they are atheist or religious. Every parent "brainwashes" his or her children into their belief system. When you turn 18 go out and make your own choices.
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My parents didn't, not in the least. They happen to be atheists, but they never encouraged me to be an atheist or told me God didn't exist. As for "brainwashing", you clearly haven't followed the debate. Read my earlier posts about my secondary school. The religious myths of the Bible were taught to me and my fellows with absolute certainty. Nobody ever said "there's no proof any of this happened". Nobody ever said "there's a lot of proof indicating that bits of it DIDN'T happen". Nobody ever addressed the fact that huge chunks of it contradict the rest of it. And nobody pointed out that huge amounts of blood has been spilled in its name.
Children are impressionable, which is the whole basis of education. These myths were taught to me with the same certainty as the maths teacher who explained that if you put two and two together you get four and if you don't believe me, test it with apples or get a calculator. It is incredibly dishonest to present religion in such a "factual" way. Children tend to believe what their teachers tell them; it doesn't usually occur to children to ask the teacher how they know this? A science or maths teacher could answer that question; a religious teacher never could, not truthfully.
| Darkknight wrote on Mon, 08 December 2008 20:41 |
you either believe or you don't and you wont convince the other side to change just from reading the forums.
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Like I said, you go ahead and believe your Bible myths for all I care. I hope, however, that if you have children you won't lie to them; you'll respect their right to have an unbrainwashed education.
| Darkknight wrote on Mon, 08 December 2008 20:41 |
Christians are being called nut jobs cause we believe in God, but those who don't seem to think its totally sane to believe the universe all happened from nothing that went bang and formed life in perfect order all by accident
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There are a few words here which prove beyond all doubt that you know absolutely nothing about the theory of evolution.
"in perfect order all by accident"
Firstly, "in perfect order". The origin of life was the most simple thing imaginable. It took MILLIONS OF YEARS for the first spark of life to appear. from there it took MILLIONS OF YEARS for it to develop and evolve into the most primitive example of life that still exists today, never mind the intelligent creatures we are now.
As for the original spark of life, it was (looking at it in isolation) an improbable event. One in a million, for all I care. Thankfully there are billions and billions and billions of planets in the universe, even assuming this universe is the only one (which is disputed). Looking at the numbers, it is not improbable at all that it would happen eventually. Over time (millions of years to work with, remember), nigh-impossible becomes improbable, improbable becomes feasible, feasible becomes likely, likely becomes nearly certain.
Secondly, "all by accident". WHAT THE FUCK? Do you know ANYTHING about evolution? Natural selection is the EXACT OPPOSITE of accident. It could not be further from an "accident" if it tried. The original spark of life was an accident, but an accident that was probably going to happen. Evolution is the exact opposite of an accident; it is the survival of successful creatures while less successful creatures die out, the genetic information of the successful creatures being passed on and developing over millenia.
Like I said, you have not been properly taught what evolution is, and it really does disappoint me that your educational system is obviously letting you down. Either that or your parents are brainwashing you.
| Jecht wrote |
Jecht
There are a number of ways actually, and they take many mediums.
-School, in that I am taught things believed untrue, or not the full truth.
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What things "believed untrue" are you taught and what does it have to do with secularism? Do you know what the word means? I've given examples of things "believed untrue" that I was taught, with absolute certainty on the part of the teacher.
| Jecht wrote |
-Television, shows are becoming much more graphic, where some things are...unnecessary. There is a shock factor that I think some shows try to adhere to. Which is fine, it draws viewers so I can understand why they do it.
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What does this have to do with secularism? Do you know what the word means?
| Jecht wrote |
-Internet, let's face it, sometimes we come across images we'd rather not have and had no intention of seeing.
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What does this have to do with secularism? Do you know what the word means?
| Jecht wrote |
-Radio, on stations I listen to, there can often be vulgar things. Luckily the radio came with a dial and a power button when I think it's too much
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What does this have to do with secularism? Do you know what the word means?
| Jecht wrote |
-Advertising, Ever walk through a mall? Some images there that are...unnecessary to say the least. I'm not at all what you'd call a prude, so I personally am not offended by them.
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What does this have to do with secularism? Do you know what the word means?
| Jecht wrote |
I'm just saying that according to Luke, it's a sin for me to look at them.
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And if someone unidentified wrote a book thousands of years ago saying it is a sin for you not to look at them, surely it would occur to you that they might be lying or crazy or just plain wrong?
| Jecht wrote |
-Everywhere, there are various things that test faith. I have to have a strong enough will to overcome them though
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Or a feeble enough imagination, or a closed enough mind, or a startling blend of gullibility and crackpot scepticism. Call it what you like.
Unleash the Renerageâ„¢
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[Updated on: Tue, 09 December 2008 07:49] Report message to a moderator |
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