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Re: in regard to the points fix [message #338699 is a reply to message #338417]

Thu, 03 July 2008 03:10

StealthEye
Messages: 2518
Registered: May 2006
Location: The Netherlands

Karma: 0

General (2 Stars)

I don't mind an option if does not cause any problems.

However I still have not heard any argument against the points fix. The marathon thing comes closest, but you should see that there are more fair ways to fix this than to enforce the players to shoot on heavy armored vehicles with weapons that are clearly not made for that.

The argument that it would not be a bug is ridiculous, it doesn't make sense anywhere, as explained in the full version of the original points fix announcement. It is undenyably a bug.

About the shotgunner -> grenadier thing, that's indeed a minor change of tactics, but as you already said does not really matter uch after you get used to pressing E-3 instead of E-2 Wink

Wink

. The point fix hardly affects existing tactics.

Many "arguments" I hear about that the points fix would be bad are simply not true, and make me doubt whether the ones posting them even know what they are talking about. This does not apply to all of you, but please try the point fix before trying to argue about it.

BlackIntel admin/founder/coder
Please visit http://www.blackintel.org/

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Re: in regard to the points fix [message #338706 is a reply to message #338417]

Thu, 03 July 2008 04:23

sadukar09
Messages: 2812
Registered: May 2007
Location: Ottawa,Canada

Karma: 0

General (2 Stars)

Funny how Ion stopped posting...

Quote:

[19:16:48] <APBBR> @ryan3k: THE ENFIELD DEFIES THE LAWS OF PHYSICS BECAUSE THE BULLETS INSTANTLY HIT THEIR TARGETS LOL
[19:16:52] <APBBR> @ryan3k: CHRONO TECHNOLOGY IN TEH BULLETS

Quote:

[22:48]<APBBR> @V0LK0V: AOL COMING UR WAI K
[22:48] <APBBR> Host: Quitting due to Westwood Online connection loss.

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Re: in regard to the points fix [message #338713 is a reply to message #338417]

Thu, 03 July 2008 06:02

BigBoy84
Messages: 78
Registered: December 2007

Karma: 0

Recruit

This whole pointfix things does actually make sense and makes the game fair and I respect TT's efforts to defend it.

The problem is that it should have been fixed years ago, now time has passed, peoples perceptions have changed.

5 years ago people would say " why the fuck do you get so many points for shooting a harvy with a ramjet when it does so little damage? Shouldnt Westwood fix that shit? Its not fair!"

The above scenario never was fixed because Westwood is no more. Because it was never fixed, people got used to it and their perception accepted that it was a normal feature of renegade.

The current state of affairs is that now people are actually defending the flaw. Is it even a flaw? To a person who thinks logically and methodically it is, the current system is no doubt a complete flaw!

But the inconvenient truth is Human nature, people are reluctant to change, dont force it on them.....

IMO the time to apply the points fix passed a long time ago, better to leave things the way they are and enjoy what time renegade has left.....Peace out!

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Re: in regard to the points fix [message #338716 is a reply to message #338417]

Thu, 03 July 2008 06:16

Goztow
Messages: 9727
Registered: March 2005
Location: Belgium

Karma: 13

General (5 Stars)
Goztoe

So your whole argument is: yes, it's a bug, yes it should have been fixed a long time ago but as it hasn't been, we got used to it so you shouldn't fix it anymore because otherwise people might need to change their well known strategies ever so slightly.

That's a bit like saying: Mugabe is a bad dictator for Zimbabwe, we've known that for a very long time, he shouldn't have had the power all this time but now that we get the possibility to elect someone else, we shouldn't do so because we're used to Mugabe being bad now.

You can find me in The KOSs2 (TK2) discord while I'm playing. Feel free to come and say hi! TK2 discord

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Re: in regard to the points fix [message #338732 is a reply to message #338417]

Thu, 03 July 2008 09:22

CarrierII
Messages: 3804
Registered: February 2006
Location: England

Karma: 0

General (3 Stars)

I don't struggle with income on lost-refinery-marathon games, and I play marathon (Jelly-RA) only, and I use the tactics Spoony detailed in his post.

Renguard is a wonderful initiative

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Re: in regard to the points fix [message #338934 is a reply to message #338716]

Fri, 04 July 2008 22:09

liquidv2
Messages: 3407
Registered: February 2007

Karma: 0

General (3 Stars)

Goztow wrote on Thu, 03 July 2008 08:16

So your whole argument is: yes, it's a bug, yes it should have been fixed a long time ago but as it hasn't been, we got used to it so you shouldn't fix it anymore because otherwise people might need to change their well known strategies ever so slightly.

That's a bit like saying: Mugabe is a bad dictator for Zimbabwe, we've known that for a very long time, he shouldn't have had the power all this time but now that we get the possibility to elect someone else, we shouldn't do so because we're used to Mugabe being bad now.

you're comparing the points system in renegade to a dictator in africa?

liquidv2

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Re: in regard to the points fix [message #338939 is a reply to message #338417]

Sat, 05 July 2008 01:08

Goztow
Messages: 9727
Registered: March 2005
Location: Belgium

Karma: 13

General (5 Stars)
Goztoe

Yes sir!

You can find me in The KOSs2 (TK2) discord while I'm playing. Feel free to come and say hi! TK2 discord

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Re: in regard to the points fix [message #338970 is a reply to message #338417]

Sat, 05 July 2008 09:37

Craziac
Messages: 157
Registered: September 2007

Karma: 0

Recruit

Odd comparison or not, it's a fair one.

http://demonshall.net/Stewie/images/OblivStewieSig.jpg

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Re: in regard to the points fix [message #338993 is a reply to message #338417]

Sat, 05 July 2008 13:03

cmatt42
Messages: 2057
Registered: July 2004

Karma: 0

General (2 Stars)

Actually, that would only work if they people didn't know he was "bad" per se and accepted it as norm.

GunKataGaming.net

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Re: in regard to the points fix [message #338996 is a reply to message #338993]

Sat, 05 July 2008 13:26

Goztow
Messages: 9727
Registered: March 2005
Location: Belgium

Karma: 13

General (5 Stars)
Goztoe

cmatt42 wrote on Sat, 05 July 2008 22:03

Actually, that would only work if they people didn't know he was "bad" per se and accepted it as norm.

How do you think the people in Zimbabwe live?

You can find me in The KOSs2 (TK2) discord while I'm playing. Feel free to come and say hi! TK2 discord

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Re: in regard to the points fix [message #338999 is a reply to message #338417]

Sat, 05 July 2008 14:03

Rocko
Messages: 833
Registered: January 2007
Location: Long Beach, California

Karma: 0

Colonel

Are you guys going to refund my money for renegade when you force online to suck?

black and proud

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Re: in regard to the points fix [message #339018 is a reply to message #338999]

Sat, 05 July 2008 16:17

cmatt42
Messages: 2057
Registered: July 2004

Karma: 0

General (2 Stars)

Goztow wrote on Sat, 05 July 2008 15:26

How do you think the people in Zimbabwe live?

I don't see where you're going with this, but we're going off topic now.

Rocko wrote on Sat, 05 July 2008 16:03

Are you guys going to refund my money for renegade when you force online to suck?

Yes, how dare they make the game better with boatloads of fixes and improvements.

GunKataGaming.net

[Updated on: Sat, 05 July 2008 16:17]

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Re: in regard to the points fix [message #339131 is a reply to message #338999]

Sun, 06 July 2008 03:15

Goztow
Messages: 9727
Registered: March 2005
Location: Belgium

Karma: 13

General (5 Stars)
Goztoe

Rocko wrote on Sat, 05 July 2008 23:03

Are you guys going to refund my money for renegade when you force online to suck?

Why don't you refund the time I spend using and moderating your stupid messages?

You can find me in The KOSs2 (TK2) discord while I'm playing. Feel free to come and say hi! TK2 discord

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Re: in regard to the points fix [message #339151 is a reply to message #338999]

Sun, 06 July 2008 06:56

EvilWhiteDragon
Messages: 3751
Registered: October 2005
Location: The Netherlands

Karma: 0

General (3 Stars)

Rocko wrote on Sat, 05 July 2008 23:03

Are you guys going to refund my money for renegade when you force online to suck?

Are you going to pay for the patch?

Are you donating any member of the staff currently?

Have you donated for the great piece of work called Renguard?

have you donated for something called Corepatch 1/2?

Have you donated for something called scripts.dll?

Have you donated BlackIntel for BIATCH?

Are you donating the serverowner of the server where you currently play the most?

I bet that you don't do any of these things, so I also bet that none has ANY reason to refund ANYTHING to you. Besides that, as you should've read, Renegade got a notice ingame, which says that gameplay may change with online play. So you got really NO reason at all to ask for a refund.

Actually we should ask for money, jsut because of lame fucktards like you who don't even show a tiny bit of appreciation.

http://www.blackintel.org/usr/evilwhitedragon/pointfix.gif

BlackIntel admin/founder/PR dude (not a coder)
Please visit http://www.blackintel.org/

V, V for Vendetta

People should not be afraid of their governments.
Governments should be afraid of their people.

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Re: in regard to the points fix [message #339246 is a reply to message #338999]

Sun, 06 July 2008 14:11

Rocko
Messages: 833
Registered: January 2007
Location: Long Beach, California

Karma: 0

Colonel

Rocko wrote on Sat, 05 July 2008 16:03

Are you guys going to refund my money for renegade when you force online to suck?

black and proud

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Re: in regard to the points fix [message #339250 is a reply to message #338417]

Sun, 06 July 2008 14:24

Ghostshaw
Messages: 709
Registered: September 2006

Karma: 0

Colonel

Have you actually played on a server with the pointsfix on?

BlackIntel Administrator

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Re: in regard to the points fix [message #339291 is a reply to message #338417]

Sun, 06 July 2008 15:08

StealthEye
Messages: 2518
Registered: May 2006
Location: The Netherlands

Karma: 0

General (2 Stars)

Rocko wrote on Sun, 06 July 2008 23:11

Rocko wrote on Sat, 05 July 2008 16:03

Are you guys going to refund my money for renegade when you force online to suck?

No.

<Rocko> Thanks for answering

You're welcome.

BlackIntel admin/founder/coder
Please visit http://www.blackintel.org/

[Updated on: Sun, 06 July 2008 15:09]

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Re: in regard to the points fix [message #339298 is a reply to message #338417]

Sun, 06 July 2008 15:18

liquidv2
Messages: 3407
Registered: February 2007

Karma: 0

General (3 Stars)

you're doing a lot of hard work for a lot of people who are fine with renegade the way it was released and have played it consistently that way for 6 years
that's what Rocko is saying

liquidv2

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Re: in regard to the points fix [message #339323 is a reply to message #339298]

Sun, 06 July 2008 16:07

TruYuri
Messages: 97
Registered: June 2008

Karma: 0

Recruit

liquidv2 wrote on Sun, 06 July 2008 17:18

you're doing a lot of hard work for a lot of people who are fine with renegade the way it was released and have played it consistently that way for 6 years
that's what Rocko is saying

They have put plenty of stress on how this tiny pointsfix will make NEGLIGIBLE changes to your actual gameplay.

[Updated on: Sun, 06 July 2008 19:42]

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Re: in regard to the points fix [message #339368 is a reply to message #338417]

Sun, 06 July 2008 18:43

Rocko
Messages: 833
Registered: January 2007
Location: Long Beach, California

Karma: 0

Colonel

so wat, if its "negligible" then why bother putting it in? lol obviously there's something there that is going to be changed a great deal. and living without points fix is not as bad as living under a zimbabwe dictator. that's a really silly thing to say.

it's not worth it.

black and proud

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Re: in regard to the points fix [message #339372 is a reply to message #338417]

Sun, 06 July 2008 19:26

jonwil
Messages: 3555
Registered: February 2003

Karma: 0

General (3 Stars)

This is clearly a bug in renegade and should be fixed like any other bug in renegade. Westwood should have fixed it but they did not do so If westwood were still around and making patches for renegade, I am sure they would fix this bug in exactly the same way we did.

As a programmer, I refuse to deliberatly leave a bug unfixed just because some players are used to how the gameplay works with the old broken code. Westwood never intended for you to get so many points for shooting a harvester with a sniper rifle or other small arms.

Jonathan Wilson aka Jonwil
Creator and Lead Coder of the Custom scripts.dll
Renegade Engine Guru
Creator and Lead Coder of TT.DLL
Official member of Tiberian Technologies

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Re: in regard to the points fix [message #339386 is a reply to message #338417]

Sun, 06 July 2008 20:49

liquidv2
Messages: 3407
Registered: February 2007

Karma: 0

General (3 Stars)

no one is saying you can't fix it
instead some people are saying they'd rather not play with it fixed

i watched a server i've played on for years nearly empty out since the pointmod was added
if the pointmod was removed i guarantee more people would play there

not everyone wants renegade changed now, six years later after they've learned and embraced it the way it was
is it really fair to force it on everyone now? at least make it a serverside option

liquidv2

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Re: in regard to the points fix [message #339424 is a reply to message #338417]

Sun, 06 July 2008 23:51

Wiener
Messages: 300
Registered: September 2005
Location: Germany

Karma: 0

Recruit

Our server has more players now compared with the days before we had the pointfix. But I am very sure that the pointfix has anything to do with it. Maybe you should check for other reasons why the server you're referring to has gone emty.

However, ppl who leave a server due to the pointfix missed the idea of winning on renegade IMO. I can't really beliefe that westwood intended to win games on points in the first place. For me it looks more obvious that the prime goal is to win on base destruction. In that POV it seems totally unlogical to shoot a harv with a shotgunner or tanks with a sniper instead of killing the vehicles.
It would also explain why the map under which is used for multiplayer training was the map that suffered most from the points bug. Without the fix it was a pure sniper/apc point whore map. Nowadays I do have some great games on this map with a quit a variaty of tactics and oportunities.

w w w. T h e K O S s 2. o r g

http://dedi.thekoss2.org/wiener/signatures/vodcaO.jpg

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Re: in regard to the points fix [message #339450 is a reply to message #339368]

Mon, 07 July 2008 02:32

StealthEye
Messages: 2518
Registered: May 2006
Location: The Netherlands

Karma: 0

General (2 Stars)

Rocko wrote on Mon, 07 July 2008 03:43

so wat, if its "negligible" then why bother putting it in? lol obviously there's something there that is going to be changed a great deal. and living without points fix is not as bad as living under a zimbabwe dictator. that's a really silly thing to say.

it's not worth it.

For the 999th time, it's a negligible effect if you play the game normally. It mostly effects people abusing the bug to get more points.

BlackIntel admin/founder/coder
Please visit http://www.blackintel.org/

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Re: in regard to the points fix [message #339475 is a reply to message #338417]

Mon, 07 July 2008 08:46

Jamie or NuneGa
Messages: 954
Registered: June 2007

Karma: 0

Colonel

One reason why I would like point fix to remain server side is when
I hear
'Harvester under attack'
In small games I can look at the enemy teams points and can usually tell what is hitting the harvester, for example if points are going up in 1's really really fast, then it is probably an apache / orca.
Different point intervals will indicate different vehicles.

I know that it is ridiculous to get 500 points for killing a stank with a orca but I don't really care(once I got 2000 points because some guy kept teching his buds stank Very Happy

Very Happy

).

http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/8789/avilj4.jpg

Jamie is a guys name in Europe...

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