Home » General Discussions » Heated Discussions and Debates » 45% of Americans believe that humans did not evolve
| Re: 45% of Americans believe that humans did not evolve [message #333720 is a reply to message #333651] |
Fri, 06 June 2008 16:29   |
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R315r4z0r
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| warranto wrote on Fri, 06 June 2008 13:09 |
1st Dimension - straight line
2nd Dimension - flat pictures
3rd Dimension - how we see the world
4th Dimension - currently beyond our specific understanding.
It's this 4th dimension and beyond that the experiments are designed to reveal.
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I thought it was agreed that the 4th dimension was Time?
Speaking of time, do you know how easy it is to understand how time travel would work? It is just hard to implement because of lack of recourses.
If you look at it like this anyway:
How do we move in the 3rd dimension? Simple, on 3 axises: X, Y, and Z. X being Horizontal, Y being Vertical, and Z being Altitude. We can stand in one spot, or reference point and move on those 3 axises until we get to our destination.
But if we add in the 4th dimension of time, we add in an additional 3 sub movement axises: Tx, Ty, Tz. However, do to hour lack of knowledge on the passage of time, we can't exactly pin point what exactly a reference point is. It is easy in the 3rd dimension, it is where you are standing now, but how would you describe that in time? How could you calculate your current position in time?
If we learned how to do that, all we would need to do is move those calculations along the Tx, Ty, and Tz plane, and thus we invent time travel.
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As for that religion argument, I used to think all religion was evil in that it caused many bad things to happen. I've reworked that theory. I now believe that monotheism is what is truly evil. I mean think about it. You worship one single person for fear of how he will judge you. You do not go against his wishes, again for fear of how he will judge you. It is all run by fear. When you look at polytheism, you see gods and higher beings that are in all different objects and elements. People pay respect to individual elements and objects thus keeping the environment safer and nicer, as well as society in check. There is still the fear of angering gods and all, but it is to such a different degree, it isn't evil. And since these objects and elements are everywhere, there is no point fighting over the religion.
If there had to one day be a religion everyone had to follow:
Polytheism > Monotheism
[Updated on: Fri, 06 June 2008 16:34] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: 45% of Americans believe that humans did not evolve [message #333746 is a reply to message #333436] |
Fri, 06 June 2008 20:54 |
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warranto
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Heh, I said that the 4th was beyond our specific understanding. You are right that it is time, but so far (at least the documentation that I've seen) suggests that while we may know what it is, we understand very little about the specifics of it.
As for your monotheism argument, it is flawed. Worshiping out of fear (or even kindness, duty, honour, etc) doesn't make the religion evil. Going on the basis of fear, the exact opposite would happen. There would be NO evil acts committed by those of particular monotheistic religion in the world because of the fear that God would judge you. If the religion preaches evil as the right thing to do, there would be evil. However, most monotheistic religions preach to do good, love thy neighbor, etc.
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| Re: 45% of Americans believe that humans did not evolve [message #333861 is a reply to message #333436] |
Sat, 07 June 2008 12:39 |
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NukeIt15
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Just to throw in something worthy of consideration- even though I know it will be bowled over and ignored in light of the beaten-to-death and never-to-be-resolved pseudo-debate over Evolution vs. Creationism- humanity, regardless of anything else, is something of an anomaly in the history of known existence, however you believe that existence came to be. We are, alone among other known species, gifted both with extraordinarily capable minds and bodies which compliment them almost perfectly. Whether or not a higher power influenced our development (or creation, if you'd have it that way), we have the power to radically adapt ourselves to almost any situation (indeed, to any we've encountered thus far) through the use of tools and reasoning skills.
With that in mind, I'd like to pose a series of questions. Not one-liners, but actual questions which may actually require some thought and which do not have definite answers:
- With all our ability to adapt through the use of clothing, tools, vehicles, and structures, is it possible (assuming for a moment, if you're up to the task, that evolution is factual) that we have actually stalled our own development? Have we become so adept at non-biological adaptation that we have cut ourself off from processes of natural selection? How long has this been happening, if at all, and- most significantly- might our lack of further development due to our own meddling have led to the belief that we never had evolved in the first place?
- As Galileo once so eloquently put it: Our Creator (assume for a moment, if you can, that such a being exists and is in fact responsible for our existence) endowed us with the capacity for rational thought. Are we truly intended to not make use of it? If, indeed, all the evidence we presently have is false and was planted there by our Creator, should we not assume that we were meant to find it? This may be interpreted as a Tower of Babel situation; we have free will and a vast array of talents, but can we determine with any reasonable certainty that we are meant to limit ourselves? How do we know that past experience is not merely part of the road to true understanding, and that in every case our being cast down again was merely the doing of a being who knew far better than we did that we simply were not ready for it yet? If we make no further attempt to understand our existence beyond what we have already been given in the form of the Bible, are we simply giving up? In the days of the Old Testament, it was presumed to be the ultimate truth, the sum total of all spiritual knowledge, and never to be supplanted. Yet now there is also the New Testament (and, if you count them, the Koran and other latter-day scriptures such as the Book of Mormon). Is that not proof enough that, whatever the nature of our Creator is, that being is not by any means done with us? How can we be so arrogant as to assume we know what lies in store for us next? Certainly, nobody expected the coming of the New Testament, so how, exactly, do we know that there isn't yet another to be revealed at a time only the Creator is aware of?
- All that exists must, by definition, be knowable; merely knowing that it does, in fact, exist, implies some possibility of further understanding. Can we all agree that the sum total of human knowledge and experience is positively insignificant compared to the vastness of all that exists, whether we believe in chance or design; that question which divides our opinions is rooted not in the scope but rather in the nature of our understanding? When we do not know even a fraction of all that may be known, what do we have besides faith and faith alone to support any belief regarding our origins? Science supports the theory of evolution, yet science is fluid; what we considered fact- unchangeable law centuries ago- is now the stuff of classroom humor and history. Does it not require an amount of faith equal to that of any belief in God to accept as fact what the evidence tells us is true, despite the fact that it may be overturned tomorrow by yet another discovery?
- Finally, what exactly does true belief in something mean? Beyond holding something as true, is it possible that validating our beliefs requires more than just faith? Perhaps we cannot truly believe something without continually testing that belief and challenging it with new ideas, new experiences, and fresh knowledge. Is it, perhaps, that truth can only be found in those beliefs which withstand that test time and time again? If you believe in God, and witness something which shakes the very foundations of that belief, and yet come out the other side still believing, have you found something true with which to justify that belief- even if it is not something tangible or explainable? If you put to the test a scientific theory and, despite a new discovery which challenges the assumptions it rests upon, it continues to make sense, has it become any less valid? When tested in such a way, is a person wrong for continuing to believe or have they come to understand something that another could not without sharing that experience? Consider that, regardless of how the world has changed, there remains an overwhelming majority of humanity which believes that some form of higher power had a hand in shaping existence as we know it. Also consider that elements of even the most thoroughly trounced scientific theories of the past have endured and found themselves incorporated into later, more accurate models.
I realize that most of you will skip right over this, but for those that don't... well, food for thought.
"Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. Horrid mischief would ensue were (the law-abiding) deprived of the use of them." - Thomas Paine
Remember, kids: illiteracy is cool. If you took the time to read this, you are clearly a loser who will never get laid. You've been warned.
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| Re: 45% of Americans believe that humans did not evolve [message #333922 is a reply to message #333747] |
Sat, 07 June 2008 18:56 |
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warranto
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| R315r4z0r wrote on Fri, 06 June 2008 22:01 |
No, you misunderstood me. I didn't say that it is evil because it is based off of fear. That is just a reason why it is bad. It is evil because it doesn't embody any respect for the environment or the elements, only other people and the god them self. That is why wars are fought. That is why it is evil.
People tend to believe their religions are better than others. "My God is better than your god!" It is just an ironic chain of violent anti-violence.
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That's not an aspect of religion though... just the people who use it.
"My God is better than your god!" offers no difference to "My government is better than your government!". How often do you hear about one country saying that their way of government is better to another Country? More often than not, it results in war and violence just as much as the concept of God does - just as often as "My way of life is better than your way of life" invokes war and violence. World War 2 happened because the German way of life was "better" than the rest of the world's. The Cold War happened because the American way of life was "better" than the Soviet Union way of life. Racism in America happened because Whites were "better" than Blacks, etc.
It's not the function of the ideal that makes it "evil", it's how people use that idea and are intolerant of other ideals. Democracy or Soviet Union-style Socialism are not evil by nature, but the people who follow them will still do evil in their name. Even racism is not evil by nature. Its simply a segregation of people based on the thought that one is better than the other. It may be wrong and and bad, but not "evil". However the people who follow such an ideal are still capable of evil done in its name.
Religion is no different.
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| Re: 45% of Americans believe that humans did not evolve [message #334161 is a reply to message #333922] |
Sun, 08 June 2008 19:59 |
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R315r4z0r
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No, but that is the point of my statement. I didn't say it is the root of all evil, I just said it is evil. And I did not mean to imply that religion in itself is evil. What I meant is that it causes problems, i.e. the people who follow it tend to take it to the wrong extremes. I've said it before that religion has good intentions, but many people have simply lost sight of them.
You can't say that someone isn't drunk from beer because someone else is drunk from wine.
Both are problem causing agents. One more than the other, or vis versa. The fact is, if one was to go away, would you not agree that there would be less problems?
If wine ceased to exist, wouldn't their be less people getting drunk?
[Updated on: Sun, 08 June 2008 20:02] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: 45% of Americans believe that humans did not evolve [message #334170 is a reply to message #333436] |
Sun, 08 June 2008 20:54 |
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warranto
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| Quote: |
I didn't say it is the root of all evil, I just said it is evil.
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Neither did I.
The only way religion could be evil is if it taught evil, and by that I mean specifics.
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What I meant is that it causes problems, i.e. the people who follow it tend to take it to the wrong extremes.
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Right the PEOPLE take it to the wrong extremes. It's the people who are evil, not the medium they invoke to justify the evil. Religion, just like government, science, morality, etc. are tools. Tools are not evil.
The whole "Guns don't kill people, people kill people" argument comes to mind. Guns are simply a tool. Designed to kill, yes... but only a tool. Religion is like this as well. Be it a "true" religion (Cristian, Judaism, Buddhism, Taoism, etc), or simply a specific tool used to manipulate the masses (stereotype cult).
The tool is neutral. Neither evil nor good. As a result, it can be used for both. And, as a result of this, it generates ideals and dogmatic positions on certain subjects that ingrain themselves so much into people that they will do what they can to make their way the right way, and often the only way.
For an example of this, look at Cold War America and the anti-communist messages put forth by, well, everyone. The American way of life was held so close by the individuals who thought it right that any perceived threat to it caused it to be acted on in a dogmatic way and any and all "communist threats" were eliminated in some form. I highly doubt you would want to call Democracy an "evil" thing.
As for your argument towards the "take one away and remove an evil", you would be correct. A type of expression of evil would be removed. However that would only be replaced by something else... and has already happened. Take a look at every Atheist whom you would describe as being evil. They have already had religion removed, yet still find means of being evil.
Be it wine or religion, removing it would solve the negative aspect of the issue... at the cost of not solving the issue at hand. Evil will still exist so long as ideals are held close to people. If someone believes in ANYTHING to the point they are willing to defend that belief, evil will occur. You can not blame the source of the belief for the acts of the individual... you can only blame the individual for thinking that the belief deserves such an act done in its name.
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| Re: 45% of Americans believe that humans did not evolve [message #334216 is a reply to message #333436] |
Mon, 09 June 2008 03:46 |
StealthEye
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I see it the other way around. If I understand you right, you basically say:
- People who want to be evil use religion for that. If there was no religion they would find something else.
I say:
- Some people get so "obsessed" with their religion that it will make them evil. If there was no religion, they *could* get obsessed by something else that makes them evil, but chances are that they don't.
We're probably both right... I guess both things happen, the question basically is how many times either happens.
I don't see religion as evil, I do however think it leads to increased amounts of evilness.
BlackIntel admin/founder/coder
Please visit http://www.blackintel.org/
[Updated on: Mon, 09 June 2008 03:47] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: 45% of Americans believe that humans did not evolve [message #334365 is a reply to message #333436] |
Mon, 09 June 2008 19:18 |
Mr.P
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Personally I wouldn't even try explaining the principles and nuances of MONOTHEISM (aka christianity, judaism and muslim)
Essentially it's the people who grow out and away from it, while maintaining their faith, that can cause problems. But it is in no way limited to.
Example time: The western world seems to have a harsh view of Muslims. But this is really because of cultural differences, religiously they take it alot more seriously but the actual core religions are very similar.
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| Re: 45% of Americans believe that humans did not evolve [message #334666 is a reply to message #333436] |
Wed, 11 June 2008 08:07 |
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Ghostshaw
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If God exists I think hes a bloody asshole for letting all those people in Africa and Asia die of war and conflict and natural disasters and all that shit. Nevermind all the deaths coming from the WW's. And don't throw the "thats the devils work" shit at me, your book says hes almighty so the devil has got nothing on him.
BlackIntel Administrator
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| Re: 45% of Americans believe that humans did not evolve [message #334670 is a reply to message #334663] |
Wed, 11 June 2008 08:11 |
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GEORGE ZIMMER
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| warranto wrote on Wed, 11 June 2008 09:58 |
Heh,
I love this part of the "flawed arguments" approach.
Be very careful how you answer. Are you suggesting that you need to "see to believe", Ryu?
Heh, besides... it could be argued that God DID show himself at one point, very few even believed him and in response to the claim he was God, we killed him.
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Yeah, I wouldn't blame God atall for being like "You know what? Screw you guys, I'm not making any more public apperences until you're all good and dead."
I mean, think about it. Imagine you just crated a giant metropolis on Sim City. Then suddenly, alot of them say "Fuck you, you don't exist". Then somehow there's some feature to, say, appear within your own city or somesuch. And when you do, they kill you, and it's game over. Granted, you could just re-load, but they'd do the same thing, then. Why bother even trying then?
And yeah, I know comparing God to humans is also somewhat flawed, but in something like that, you shouldn't bitch when someone's not better than you.
Oh, and also, it pisses me off when so many people think they're athiest because it's "cool" or because they don't exactly follow a major religion. Being agnostic is another option, and probably the most logical approach to religion to start off with. Going athiest because "LOL, CAN'T SEE GOD!" is a stupid reason.
Toggle Spoiler| Scrin wrote on Sat, 24 January 2009 13:22 |
| cAmpa wrote on Sat, 24 January 2009 12:45 |
Scrin, stop pming people to get the building bars.
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FUCK YOU AND THIS SHIT GAME WITH YOUR SCRIPTS!!! I HAVE ASKING YOU AND ANOTHER NOOBS HERE ABOUT HELP WITH THAT BUILDING ICONS FEATURES FOR YEARS, BUT YOU KEEP IGNORING ME AND KEEP WRITE SHIT, SO BURN YOU AND YOUR ASSLICKERS FRIENDS, THIS TIME I'M NOT COME BACK!!!!!!!!!   
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[Updated on: Wed, 11 June 2008 08:14] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: 45% of Americans believe that humans did not evolve [message #334672 is a reply to message #334671] |
Wed, 11 June 2008 08:15 |
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Herr Surth
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| warranto wrote on Wed, 11 June 2008 10:13 |
Heh, and that is fine by me Surth.
So long as your reason for not believing in him isn't based on some highly flawed argument. (There are far too many of those)
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MY REASON FOR NOT BELIEVING IN GOD IS THAT I PRAYED TO HIM BUT I STILL DIDNT GET A PONY!
| cheesesoda wrote on Wed, 11 June 2008 10:10 |
Actually, it would be argued that it's the result of human nature. God lets it happen because He has given us free will. In doing so, God allows man to destroy itself in any way it sees fit, but also allows us the ability to repent and follow His will. It's human nature that inherently destroys itself, and God allows it, otherwise we can't truly have free will if He intervenes.
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Yeah, im pretty sure the african inherits wanted to be born in an environment that sucks 
[Updated on: Wed, 11 June 2008 08:17] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: 45% of Americans believe that humans did not evolve [message #334673 is a reply to message #334663] |
Wed, 11 June 2008 08:18 |
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Ryu
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| warranto wrote on Wed, 11 June 2008 15:58 |
Heh,
I love this part of the "flawed arguments" approach.
Be very careful how you answer. Are you suggesting that you need to "see to believe", Ryu?
Heh, besides... it could be argued that God DID show himself at one point, very few even believed him and in response to the claim he was God, we killed him.
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God is almighty and powerful, ego follows after them two.
I question him so his only logical way to keep his ego is, Showing himself to the masses.
See to believe? more like See to save my ass.
But the real flaw is, Christians BELIEVE God created man kind, But why do a huge majority of Christians try and say it's a fact that god created us, I thought believing and fact were two different thing.
Now why would we kill god? if we killed God there is no God hence no Heaven, Don't try and tell me humans are that stupid!!
Presence is a curious thing, if you think you need to prove it... you probably never had it in the first place.
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