Home » General Discussions » Heated Discussions and Debates » Soldiers disrespect towards cadets.
| Re: Soldiers disrespect towards cadets. [message #329084 is a reply to message #328872] |
Mon, 05 May 2008 10:44   |
KIRBY-098
Messages: 338
Registered: July 2006
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If you wear a uniform and want to be aligned to the military, it's your duty to know regs AND your place.
Marines earn that uniform in the most severe and punishing ways possible, and to them your wearing of it is borderline disrespect to thm because a lot of strong men fell along the wayside in boot camp and many have died while wearing it. Those "medals" you "earned" are nothing but trinkets to keep kids motivated while playing paintball in the woods during college that won't mean a thing once enlisted.
AKA they aren't real...
If you expect them to "respect" you as a civvy playing military you're fooling yourself. If this hurts your feelings you just wait till you get to Paris Island...
You won't last a week.
Honor your commitment to serve and take the abuse, realize you haven't earned a damned thing yet and when your time comes you serve with honor.
Above all, stop whining. Whining WILL get you nothing but disdain from every veteran reading this.
[Updated on: Mon, 05 May 2008 10:48] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Soldiers disrespect towards cadets. [message #329133 is a reply to message #329084] |
Mon, 05 May 2008 14:07 |
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Dave Anderson
Messages: 1953
Registered: December 2004
Location: United States
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General (1 Star) |
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Those "medals" you "earned" are nothing but trinkets to keep kids motivated while playing paintball in the woods during college that won't mean a thing once enlisted.
AKA they aren't real...
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So you're saying that the medals that retired military veterans award cadets are fake? If that's true then why don't you go tell those retired military vet's that they are wasting their time issuing "motivational 'trinket's" to cadets. I dare you to. That's an insult to those vet's who take their time to do this. Many of them are very elderly and can barely walk, but still have the will to get up and hand a cadet a medal, and I'm sure many of them would take offense to what you just said, but who knows, maybe not, but that's just my common sense kicking in here.. Those "trinkets" may have nothing to do with combat, but I still earned them, and its a great honor receiving one from a retired military veteran.
David Anderson
Founder, Software Consultant
DCOM Productions
Microsoft Partner (MSP)
[Updated on: Mon, 05 May 2008 14:09] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Soldiers disrespect towards cadets. [message #329135 is a reply to message #328872] |
Mon, 05 May 2008 14:26 |
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I think the point he's trying to make is that you haven't put your life on the line, so while you may have actually "earned" some awards for being dedicated to the JROTC, they still don't mean anything in terms of real honor. You have to earn that in boot camp and in combat.
The retired vets probably don't think those awards are absolutely worthless, as they do serve a purpose. You should be proud of what you've earned in the JROTC compared to most teens that just waste their life, but they certainly mean nothing when compared to what you're asked to do in the military.
Yes, the marine was an asshole, but he does have merit to be one. I think may have been wrong to attack someone who isn't in the military, but with how you're defending your dissent towards him, perhaps he saw something in you that you don't... an undeserved arrogance.
Libertarian Party | The King's Throne | The Soda Shop
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| Re: Soldiers disrespect towards cadets. [message #329141 is a reply to message #328872] |
Mon, 05 May 2008 15:25 |
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Dave Anderson
Messages: 1953
Registered: December 2004
Location: United States
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General (1 Star) |
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You're right; I won't ever know real honor like a soldier does unless I enlist and go through the same things they do. I'm just saying he did not treat the situation like a good leader would have. Merit to be an ass? Maybe to another soldier, but not to a cadet I wouldn't think. Cadets are taught, and as far as I know soldiers too, to handle situations in a respectable and civilized manner. Cadets simply are not exposed to what a soldier is, so of course we will not know what a soldier knows, or feel what a soldier feels. A soldier I would think, would take this into consideration when dealing with any situation. However, I do also know that the Marines are much different than the other branches in regards to honor, discipline, etc, but even then, he's the very first Marine I've met that has treated a situation like this the way he did.
David Anderson
Founder, Software Consultant
DCOM Productions
Microsoft Partner (MSP)
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| Re: Soldiers disrespect towards cadets. [message #329152 is a reply to message #328872] |
Mon, 05 May 2008 17:09 |
KIRBY-098
Messages: 338
Registered: July 2006
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I AM one of those veterans.
I knew a kid just like you when I went through. He was so proud of those "medals" and it took about a week before the group threatened his life, and he was removed from command of our group. Then he found out he couldn't wear them and sulked for the rest of boot camp.
Do you know who was his senior enlisted NCO by the end of his career?
Me.
With a chest full of real medals earned on three deployments to the persian gulf. And to be honest, even they don't mean anyhting now... Meanwhile, Mr. "I have ROTC medals" spent three years smoking and drinking himself into a bitter hole and never saw combat until he was reassigned to our unit.
They mean nothing once you enlist/get commissioned.
Honor is earned through service. You need to be humble, respectful and deal with the losers who throw their weight around by doing the exact opposite of what you want to. Because that's how a military man does business.
No excuses, no blame, no whining about fairness.
He faces the adversity, digs in, and comes out stronger than before.
Now is a great time to start doing just that. Instead of dishonoring the corps by bringing this into a format that couldn't possible understand why uniforms and discipline matter.
Our uniform represents the United States of America. We are the ambassadors to the world and the respect that is given to those who wear it was earned in blood.
[Updated on: Mon, 05 May 2008 17:13] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Soldiers disrespect towards cadets. [message #329161 is a reply to message #328872] |
Mon, 05 May 2008 17:55 |
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Dave Anderson
Messages: 1953
Registered: December 2004
Location: United States
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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I knew a kid just like you when I went through. He was so proud of those "medals" and it took about a week before the group threatened his life, and he was removed from command of our group. Then he found out he couldn't wear them and sulked for the rest of boot camp.
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I am proud of the medals I have earned, but like you implied, in the end they are just medal and fabric. It is offensive though when someone says that they do not mean anything, and are "trinkets". I had a shit-life when I came out of middle school, and the JROTC turned my life around. Those medals are one of the only positive memories I have from the past six years of my life. It took me three years to receive my first medal, and that was from the NCO Association where it was handed to me by a Sergeant Major. Being a high school student and getting to shake his hand, even getting to salute him, was a complete honor. How is that not supposed to mean anything to me?
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With a chest full of real medals earned on three deployments to the persian gulf. And to be honest, even they don't mean anyhting now... Meanwhile, Mr. "I have ROTC medals" spent three years smoking and drinking himself into a bitter hole and never saw combat until he was reassigned to our unit.
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It just seems that because your medals don't mean anything to you anymore, that you just think that they don't mean anything period. Not everyone is going to have the same mindset as you. Some soldiers will value their medals more than others, some won't value them at all. Its just how a person perceives things.
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Honor is earned through service. You need to be humble, respectful and deal with the losers who throw their weight around by doing the exact opposite of what you want to. Because that's how a military man does business.
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How on earth is the Marine's behavior justifiable then?
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No excuses, no blame, no whining about fairness.
He faces the adversity, digs in, and comes out stronger than before.
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I did something wrong. I openly admit that, and I won't ever deny it. I'm not trying to argue to justify what I did wrong though. I'm simply making an argument about a Marines behavior, when I know for a fact that the way he behaved is not how the military teaches our soldiers to behave in a situation like that.
David Anderson
Founder, Software Consultant
DCOM Productions
Microsoft Partner (MSP)
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| Re: Soldiers disrespect towards cadets. [message #329178 is a reply to message #328872] |
Mon, 05 May 2008 19:57 |
KIRBY-098
Messages: 338
Registered: July 2006
Karma: 0
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You seem to missing my point.
It isn't about him. It's about you and how you handle this.
There are more of those guys, and this WILL happen again. How will you handle it next time?
The entire crux is this: You are more than your medals. Rise above the hurt pride, lumps of metal and inevitable idiocy you will come across.
Let me share a situation I was in: I was busted down to mess duty for refusing an order to overwork my men. While there, I was put in charge of the men and ran a fairly tight ship and the men did well under my leadership but I had one bad egg who was a gang banger and didn't like the military. He disrespected me to my face in front of 100 people and I wrote him up for it. When it came before the chief in charge who was of the same race as the offender, he had both of us there and took the report and said: "I'll be sure to file this in the right place" and threw it in the trash.
Obviously, I was insulted and the entire chain of command was corrupted by this racially motivated event.
I was angry as hell and thought about drilling both of them right there.
I didn't. I went back to work and did my job and held my head high and every single one of those men who worked for me knew what had happened. They knew he had usurped command and they spent the next two months making his life a living hell in a silent rebellion against what he had done because of the respect they had for me.
At the end of my six month purgatory in the mess hall, I recieved a commendation for efficiency and leadership. He ended up in the brig for something else.
Justice will get served. the military has a way of correcting injustices that get passed over in the civilian world
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| Re: Soldiers disrespect towards cadets. [message #329181 is a reply to message #328872] |
Mon, 05 May 2008 20:22 |
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Dave Anderson
Messages: 1953
Registered: December 2004
Location: United States
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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I handled the situation as I would any other. I said "Okay." and I took my headgear off. Every question he asked I answered politely. I handle the situation as any leader would in a responsible and civilized manner. As for this topic, I brought it here with the intention to create a heated discussion & debate. As for my attitude towards the situation afterwards, it probably is piss-poor as you pointed out, and it definitely could be better.
I feel for you for the situation you just shared. Its never happened to me, but when I was a C/1SG we had a bad cadet in our company who outright disrespected our company commander in front of the entire company. Of course our SAI (warrant officer) didn't stand for it and through the cadet out of the class room and to the front office, but it sure had an impact on the commander. Then later my company commander made me slam the cadet with demerits.
Also, since you're a vet. you might be able to answer a question I have about the uniform. I don't know what kind of memo's you receive still, so I thought I'd shoot for it. As of April 30th the Army BDU is a retired uniform. After I graduate I obviously won't be enrolled in the JROTC anymore. According to 10 USC Sec. 771 does that mean I can't wear my BDU's anymore for things such as long hiking trips/etc? Or do you know of a way I can find out this type of information?
David Anderson
Founder, Software Consultant
DCOM Productions
Microsoft Partner (MSP)
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| Re: Soldiers disrespect towards cadets. [message #329189 is a reply to message #328872] |
Mon, 05 May 2008 22:28 |
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Dave Anderson
Messages: 1953
Registered: December 2004
Location: United States
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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Watch your foul tongue boy, and get out of this topic. You have no place in a civilized discussion.
Let's just please ignore Rocko and move on with our discussion.
David Anderson
Founder, Software Consultant
DCOM Productions
Microsoft Partner (MSP)
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| Re: Soldiers disrespect towards cadets. [message #329242 is a reply to message #328872] |
Tue, 06 May 2008 07:31 |
KIRBY-098
Messages: 338
Registered: July 2006
Karma: 0
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Recruit |
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It doesn't "spoil" you, it's just that you get different priorities. Once children and a wife enter the picture (and in my case a conversion to christianity) it just fades...
I think the medals are now focal points for memories. As time fades it gets harder to remember what I went through and they bring me back and facilitate those coming to the surface.
As for the uniform change: Sorry. Other than a quick google I wouldn't be able to help you there. Best thing to do is to go to your local recruiting station. They have the latest and greatest on anything happening within their service and are trained to answer any and all questions you may have.
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| Re: Soldiers disrespect towards cadets. [message #329249 is a reply to message #328872] |
Tue, 06 May 2008 08:39 |
bisen11
Messages: 797
Registered: December 2004
Karma: 0
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Colonel |
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He did say he bought the uniform, so technically didn't he earn it by buying it? If I go for a bike ride and somone came up to me and started yelling at me that I couldn't wear my bike helmet because I didn't earn it through any kind of a bike race or anything, I'd be pretty annoyed.
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| Re: Soldiers disrespect towards cadets. [message #329354 is a reply to message #328872] |
Tue, 06 May 2008 21:46 |
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warranto
Messages: 2584
Registered: February 2003
Location: Alberta, Canada
Karma: 0
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General (2 Stars) |
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Heh, "retired" Warrant Officer 1st Class, Cadet Squadron Commander here (Cadet rank/position) (hence the "warranto" nick  ). "Retired" simply because I aged out. The Canadian Cadet program is for teens 12-18 (You can join on your 12th birthday and you age out as soon as you turn 19)
Mind you I am comparing this to the Canadian cadet program. Up here we are not part of the official military and are more of a "youth group" (poor description, but it works for the purposes here). We do receive part of the military budget (paid for through the Department of National Defense) for our training, and therefor an unofficial part of the military. Our officers, part of the CIC (Cadet Instructor Cadre) are real military officials (I jokingly call them the tertiary reserves... part of the military but would most likely never be called to real combat despite going through the training for combat, etc)
We cadets are subordinate to the regular military (though it's always odd being a WO1(Chief Warrant Officer to some people) and have a corporal in the regular force command you around. However as we are recognized as being tied in with the Military, everything we do is a reflection of the service, though with the understanding of still being "kids".
Anyway, on topic. Regardless of how he handled the situation, he did have the privilege to correct the mistake. He may have handled it badly (I'm not going to argue that point without knowing his mindset), but just to the people distinguishing between simple cadets and military cadets, there is no real difference. One is simply the "civilian version" of the military-for-kids.
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| Re: Soldiers disrespect towards cadets. [message #329357 is a reply to message #328872] |
Tue, 06 May 2008 22:01 |
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Dave Anderson
Messages: 1953
Registered: December 2004
Location: United States
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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I honestly cannot believe it took this long for me it to finally click in my head of the relevance of your alias, sadly only after you told me directly, lol.
How you explained your program is pretty much how ours is ran. The head hancho's are the SAI (Retired Chief Warrant Officer CW3) and our AI (Master Sergeant). Only difference I can see from what you said is our instructors are military veterans who have seen combat and have a lot of past experiences. The rest is handled by the students/cadets. We too get funding from the military as well as our school district for our program.
David Anderson
Founder, Software Consultant
DCOM Productions
Microsoft Partner (MSP)
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| Re: Soldiers disrespect towards cadets. [message #329358 is a reply to message #328872] |
Tue, 06 May 2008 22:07 |
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warranto
Messages: 2584
Registered: February 2003
Location: Alberta, Canada
Karma: 0
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General (2 Stars) |
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Oh, I'm sure there are a number of veterans who are now in the CIC. However, it's not a requirement and I would be confident in saying a large number of CIC officers are those who came directly from Cadets. Heh, this is also not to say that the reg force doesn't volunteer to instruct... but as for as command and control of each unit goes, its all the CIC branch of the military.
Edit: Simply to brag and advertise... check out the Cadet homepage
http://www.cadets.ca/intro_e.asp
[Updated on: Tue, 06 May 2008 22:09] Report message to a moderator |
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