Home » General Discussions » Heated Discussions and Debates » Jesus
| Re: Jesus [message #216096 is a reply to message #215250] |
Tue, 29 August 2006 12:46   |
 |
warranto
Messages: 2584
Registered: February 2003
Location: Alberta, Canada
Karma: 0
|
General (2 Stars) |
|
|
Don't use words you don't mean then.
If you mean that you "know" something, then say it, and provide the proof that goes with your knowledge. If you don't "know" it, don't claim that you do.
Edit: Actually, it does negate x, x, and x.
Try this: I know that Bush himslef rigged the last election to ensure that he won.
The obvious response would be to "prove it".
Now try this: I'm not sure but did Bush rig the last election to ensure that he won?
The response would most likely be "no" rather than "prove it".
The first one is claiming it to be a truth (I know), while the later is simply expressing a belief (I'm not sure).
[Updated on: Tue, 29 August 2006 13:03] Report message to a moderator |
|
|
|
| Re: Jesus [message #216097 is a reply to message #216095] |
Tue, 29 August 2006 12:48 |
|
|
| Crimson wrote on Tue, 29 August 2006 15:44 |
If I say "I know there's no God because X, X and X." or I say "I believe there's no God because of X, X, and X", it doesn't negate X, X, and X, but you take them out of the debate and pick on the person for saying "know" instead of "believe". That's not good debate skills.
|
It's still pointless trying to prove either side wrong simply because you see a few things differently than others. Obviously we're all going to see each other's point of view as wrong if they disagree, but these religious debates are as pointless as arguing politics with the opposite side. It really does prove nothing. How many times has SFE been proven to be an idiot, yet he dredges on with his bullshit because he "can't" be proven wrong. Only, in this case, neither side can be proven wrong.
Libertarian Party | The King's Throne | The Soda Shop
|
|
|
|
| Re: Jesus [message #216099 is a reply to message #215250] |
Tue, 29 August 2006 12:55 |
 |
Javaxcx
Messages: 1943
Registered: February 2003
Location: Canada, eh?
Karma: 0
|
General (1 Star) |
|
|
The reasons X, X, and X are immaterial when the profession of knowledge is in question. If you say you believe X, X, and X, go for it because it has no merit on anyone else. Your reasons are your own and whether or not you 'know' them or 'believe' them are entirely based on your epistemological tendencies. The issue arises when you start claiming some form of objective knowledge against someone else saying the same thing but with differing content. If you subscribe to agnosticism across the board then there is no need to argue because everyone is likely objectively incorrect.
X, X, and X themselves become and issue when you're arguing for probability, in which case we start all over again. How/why do you know/believe what you know/believe? Ultimately, unless you have some kind of fundamental epistemological insight, you'll find that the reasons you believe God to be probable or improbable are as much in question as anything else. David Hume is very important reading on this topic.
Sniper Extraordinaire
Read the FUD Rules before you come in and make an ass of yourself.
All your base are belong to us.
You have no chance to survive make your time.
|
|
|
|
| Re: Jesus [message #216112 is a reply to message #215250] |
Tue, 29 August 2006 13:24 |
|
warranto
Messages: 2584
Registered: February 2003
Location: Alberta, Canada
Karma: 0
|
General (2 Stars) |
|
|
| Quote: |
Just because you believe yourself to be a world-reknowned expert on absolute meanings and differences between knowing, knowledge, and belief,
|
Never claimed, nor believed that. Interesting point though, I was the first to write a paper about it (at least as far as I know or have been told).
[Updated on: Tue, 29 August 2006 13:24] Report message to a moderator |
|
|
|
| Re: Jesus [message #216163 is a reply to message #216097] |
Tue, 29 August 2006 18:06 |
 |
Blazer
Messages: 3322
Registered: February 2003
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Karma: 0
|
General (3 Stars)
Administrator/General |
|
|
| j_ball430 wrote on Tue, 29 August 2006 15:48 |
It's still pointless trying to prove either side wrong simply because you see a few things differently than others. Obviously we're all going to see each other's point of view as wrong if they disagree, but these religious debates are as pointless as arguing politics with the opposite side. It really does prove nothing. How many times has SFE been proven to be an idiot, yet he dredges on with his bullshit because he "can't" be proven wrong. Only, in this case, neither side can be proven wrong.
|
| Blazer wrote (again) |
There's no winning the "argument", and no amount of pasting what you believe or referencing scientific materials is going to sway the other person one bit, so all that happens is everyone flames each other to death and gets pissed off. There are exceptions to the rule of course, and I have seen calm intelligent discussion on opposing sides...but one thing that I have never seen is someones mind changed due to the discussion.
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Jesus [message #216193 is a reply to message #215825] |
Tue, 29 August 2006 23:50 |
 |
Hydra
Messages: 827
Registered: September 2003
Location: Atlanta, GA
Karma: 0
|
Colonel |
|
|
| Crimson wrote on Mon, 28 August 2006 17:08 |
I still don't get it, I guess. I don't believe there's a "God". I don't know why I have to prove he doesn't exist. If you want me to believe in "God", I need proof.
|
The only time when you have to prove he doesn't exist is when you "KNOW" he doesn't exist.
You can claim not to know any better and say that you don't know for sure, and no one would have any problem with it.
What creates conflict is you saying, "I KNOW THERE IS NO GOD! YOUR BELIEF IN GOD IS STUPID BECAUSE I KNOW I'M RIGHT!!!"
You say we Christians are abrasive in our evangelistic techniques while you atheists are equally, if not more-so, vehement in your attacks on religion.
No one is taking up issue with WHAT you believe; it's how you're presenting your beliefs, sitting all smug in your place ABSOLUTELY SURE you know you're right, while everyone else has been claiming that God is ONE POSSIBLE REASON (and, to most people, the most likely reason) for the cause of existence. Once you come up with an idea logically better than God, we might begin agreeing with you. Until then, who are you to say "YOU'RE ALL WRONG!!!" and insult our beliefs ("BELIEVING IN GOD IS STUPID AND CLOSE-MINDED!") when you don't know yourself?
| Quote: |
I won't say that I know for a fact that there is no "God", but it ranks low on the probability charts. Really, really low.
|
What evidence do you have that makes you say that? What is it about the concept of a higher power or other supernatural cause that "ranks it [so] low on the probability charts"?
What makes the belief in God "stupid" and the belief in the Big Bang "smart"? Because a bunch of other "smart" people believe it to be true? Isn't that appeal to the masses or something like that?
| Quote: |
The problem is that I'm stuck with two sets of people:
1) Those of you who believe in "God" AND one of the religions that worships "him".
2) Those of you who believe no religion has it right and all forms of worship are bullshit, but you believe in a conscious being who created us.
When I argue against one, the other one attacks me. And you guys can't even see it, or maybe you thrive on it to continue to look like you're getting somewhere.
|
You see, that's where the problem starts. You think you're the victim here when you're just as guilty as those you claim began attacking you.
Look at your first post in this thread:
| Quote: |
For religion to claim that a "god" or "intelligent being" created the universe is just closed-minded. And even IF there was a "god" who put the big bang into motion, it does NOT mean we need to worship it/her/him and it DOESN'T mean that anything in the Bible is more than a big bunch of brainwashing hooey. It also does NOT mean there's a heaven or a hell. I prefer to remain open minded about where we came from until and unless science finds a cause (quantum physics is awesome).
|
Your first sentence is an attack on the religious perspective of the origin of the universe ("close-minded") (never mind the fact that you're COMPLETELY DISCOUNTING THE POSSIBILITY of an ultimate creator (wait, nevermind; you're just "ranking it low on the probability charts")). 27 words later, you start an attack on the Christian religion ("THE BIBLE IS MEANT ONLY TO CONTROL THE DUMB MASSES!! YOU'RE ALL SHEEP!!!") You close it out with an affirmation of your smugness about being so much more "open-minded" and "superior" (implied) to your religious counterparts.
Now, what kind of response from that could you expect? "Gee, Crimson, you're right. I guess I should give up what I've been taught since I could walk (who needs pie-in-the-sky ideas like an eternal god that loves you infinitely, right?), since it's all a brainwashing tool meant to control children and turn them into Muslim-killing crusaders."
Unless your forum is made up of the most fickle people on the internet (for some, I don't know how far that is from the truth (I'm lookin' at you, j_ball)), all that's going to do is ruffle some feathers and stir up more virulent opposition--"throwing gas onto the fire," if you will.
You can't make posts like that and try to play the victim ("Help! Help! I'm being repressed!") when we only do what is in our nature--vehemently defend that in which we believe when it comes under scathing attack.
You can see what kind of responses you got:
| j_ball430 |
How the fuck is that being closed-minded?
...
If we're going to play those semantics, then you're closed-minded in saying that I'm closed-minded. I think you're wrong, therefore, your opinion isn't absolute and thusly closed-minded.
Quit playing these games. You think you're right. I think I'm right. Neither of us can prove each other wrong, so leave it at that. God can neither be proven nor disproven, so to tell me I'm wrong (or closed-minded) gets you nowhere because you have no factual evidence supporting your claim as I don't have any factual evidence supporting my claim.
|
| DarkDemin |
Psuedo-intellectual bullshit isn't going to get you anywhere.
|
And then, to make things even better, you continue to belittle our beliefs:
| Quote: |
You tell us this crazy story of an immaculate conception and a big imaginary friend who grants us our wishes if we ask but only if he wants to because he has a plan for you from the moment you're born until the day you die, but oh yeah, you have free will even though "God" has a plan for you.
You tell us this crazy story about this imaginary dude and challenge US to disprove his existence? Sounds like a huge COP OUT to me, theists!
...
The funniest part is that you all come down to the argument that basically says "You can't explain how we got here, therefore God exists." What the fuck kind of retarded garbage is that?
"God" is just a grown-up version of Santa Claus, a concept invented by man as a way to control people en masse. Be good or you'll get coal in your stocking/go to hell!
|
At this point, it's hard for EITHER side to keep its cool about the debate before an outright shouting match ensues (I am claiming no innocence; a number of my posts have some obvious heat to them).
After all of this has heated up, how can you possibly try to make yourself out to be the victim here? It's like prodding a dog with a stick incessantly for thirty minutes, and when he finally bites you, you scream and cry to your parents and say "THE DOG BIT ME FOR NO REASON!"
There's nothing wrong with debating passionately about these things, but once that passion turns into anger, anger that begins to attack the other side with an intent to harm not the argument but the other side's personal feelings, THAT'S when you start getting out of line.
I am in no way saying the other side is immune to it; to say it's one side's fault ALL the time, though, is to be ignorant to reality. BOTH sides start the fire, BOTH sides keep adding fuel to the fire, and BOTH sides get hurt when the fire finally gets out of hand and blows up in the faces of both sides.
What BOTH sides need to do is to be equally and TRULY open-minded about the subject and about the other side's argument (not simply CLAIM open-mindedness just to give yourself some air of superiority compared to the other side). Only then can we TRULY begin to start deeply discussing these big questions that NO ONE HAS AN ABSOLUTE ANSWER TO. And no matter how outlandish we may think someone's answer is, we must not remain so smug in our own beliefs that we fail to respect that person's own beliefs and feelings.
There are certain ways of debating subjects like these. Emotionally, defensively, and abrasively is not one of them.
P.S. Don't take anything I've said here personally, Crimson. Know that I don't think myself better than or somehow superior to you simply because of what I believe. We have often agreed on a myriad of issues in the past, so your reasoning was easy for me to understand since I often had similar reasoning. We simply need to agree to respect each other's beliefs on this topic (I am in no way absolving myself of any guilt; much of what I have said in this thread could easily be misconstrued as a personal attack, and I apologize it may have come across that way). I'm sorry if I made my point a little unclear at times and conveyed an abrasive meaning that I did not intend.
I mean none of this personally and all of this professionally.
Walter Keith Koester: September 22, 1962 - March 15, 2005
God be with you, Uncle Wally.
 (<---New(ish) Prayer Group Forums)
 (<---Archived Prayer Group Forums)
|
|
|
|
| Re: Jesus [message #216197 is a reply to message #215250] |
Wed, 30 August 2006 00:16 |
 |
Goztow
Messages: 9717
Registered: March 2005
Location: Belgium
Karma: 12
|
General (5 Stars)
Goztoe |
|
|
I have followed this post from a distance but do have one remark. I can understand that people who believe in God, want to stand up and defend their believe.
What I don't understand is why people are putting considerable time in this topic to convince that this isn't the case.
If you believe in something, I can understand that you want to convince people that what you believe is right. However, how can you want to convince people that there is nothing?
It's like a cookie. If you find it good, you might want to convince people it is good. If it is bad, then why would you even put the effort into convincing people it is bad (even though they think it is good)? You won't gain anything by it.
People that like the cookie will want the others to have the joy of eating the cookie. People who don't like it, will shut up about it.
Does any of you actually think that you'll convince the other? I don't think so...
This complete topic is all about "I'm right and I want to have the last word".
You can find me in The KOSs2 (TK2) discord while I'm playing. Feel free to come and say hi! TK2 discord
|
|
|
|
| Re: Jesus [message #216217 is a reply to message #215250] |
Wed, 30 August 2006 04:00 |
 |
Crimson
Messages: 7427
Registered: February 2003
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Karma: 0
|
General (5 Stars)
ADMINISTRATOR |
|
|
What you don't understand is that I fully intend to offend you and shake you and call you names. I won't get anywhere by placating you. Some people NEED their faith so viciously attacked once in a while so they can either affirm their beliefs or open their mind to other possibilities. The human experience is vast and complex and I thoroughly enjoy poking you with a stick and watching your reaction. I love saying totally whacky things to see what you do.
Now, why do I want you all to be atheists and convince you of my position? Let me float a few ideas your way:
1) Christianity and maybe other religions tell you that those who don't believe are going to hell and may even tell you that we're EVIL. I don't want you praying for me or worrying about me.
2) You are my friends and I believe several of you are intelligent enough to really step back and examine your faith. I'm waiting for someone to swallow their long-held pride and ask the difficult questions you may not want to know the answer to. I'm waiting for someone to be brave enough to take a small journey in the path of an atheist and see what makes us tick. I've taken a tour through the Christian faith and have spent many a sleepless night discussing with my brother who is still a theist but becoming less so every day as we talk. If you really want to know my path relating to religion in detail, I will be glad to share it. However I do currently believe I have had more exposure to your religion than you have to my non-religion. (speaking in the most general of terms I possibly can, of course)
3) From where I currently am in my path of theories and playing with ideas and debating with my brother, I am of the current mindset that religion is often more harmful than good and if I can help just one person see that and see why I think that way, then maybe it will help speed us along to the day I see when religion is categorized as insanity and humans experience life completely differently than we do now.
I will no longer entertain replies that deal in wording or semantics. I do not care to have a theological debate. My desire is to entice someone or someones to make the brave leap and follow the path of an atheist and find out why I and many others are so. I'm not saying I'm right, though of course I do believe I am.  And if you end the journey more sure of your faith, then fine, and if you decide that you need to re-examine what you believe to be true, then I will do anything I can to point you in some of the directions you may ultimately desire to take.
Simply put, my brother and I talk about this stuff all the time, and in the last year or so I've watched my brother change from a hardcore Christian to where he is today where he can see religion from a different perspective but is currently not yet ready to let go of "God". I wish to share some of these things with you.
I'm the bawss.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Jesus [message #216235 is a reply to message #215250] |
Wed, 30 August 2006 07:02 |
 |
Scythar
Messages: 580
Registered: February 2003
Location: Finland
Karma: 0
|
Colonel |
|
|
The fact is we don't know anything for sure. As Java said, nothing we think we know can be proven to be an absolute truth. You can say you know an apple falls down or that flames are hot or God exists, but we don't know it to be an ultimate truth. Perhaps gravity, a force we don't understand completely, changes at times, and causes objects to push each others instead? However, our world is too complex if we live it like that. For the world to work, a society has to accept some beliefs as an absolute truth, otherwise you could just go and rob everyone and say "I didn't do it" despite you being shown on security cameras. There's still a small chance that there was a weird anomaly in the cameras that made it look like you were in it, after all.
What Crimson, for example, is doing is trying to spread (more or less) the idea that we should accept "God doesn't exist" into the category of absolute truths of ours, and not really spend any more time thinking about such unprobable and outright silly things. Same applies inversely to theists.
And as to why atheists are trying to turn theists....the answer is personal of course. Happiness is usually the main argument: some atheists believe we would advance huge leaps in technology if everyone donated to science instead of churches. We could probably find cures for bad diseases. Some just don't want any religions to exists because they often cause conflicts and wars. Some don't think too far into it, they just give into the instinct that makes you believe such large groups of people thinking differently could be a potential threat to your way of living in some way. This all, again, applies to theists too. They also think the world would be a happier place if people believed, or they think atheists as a threat.
There's a hole in the sky through which things can fly.
[Updated on: Wed, 30 August 2006 07:04] Report message to a moderator |
|
|
|
| Re: Jesus [message #216242 is a reply to message #216217] |
Wed, 30 August 2006 07:52 |
|
Hydra
Messages: 827
Registered: September 2003
Location: Atlanta, GA
Karma: 0
|
Colonel |
|
|
| Crimson wrote on Wed, 30 August 2006 07:00 |
What you don't understand is that I fully intend to offend you and shake you and call you names. I won't get anywhere by placating you. Some people NEED their faith so viciously attacked once in a while so they can either affirm their beliefs or open their mind to other possibilities. The human experience is vast and complex and I thoroughly enjoy poking you with a stick and watching your reaction. I love saying totally whacky things to see what you do.
Now, why do I want you all to be atheists and convince you of my position? Let me float a few ideas your way:
1) Christianity and maybe other religions tell you that those who don't believe are going to hell and may even tell you that we're EVIL. I don't want you praying for me or worrying about me.
2) You are my friends and I believe several of you are intelligent enough to really step back and examine your faith. I'm waiting for someone to swallow their long-held pride and ask the difficult questions you may not want to know the answer to. I'm waiting for someone to be brave enough to take a small journey in the path of an atheist and see what makes us tick. I've taken a tour through the Christian faith and have spent many a sleepless night discussing with my brother who is still a theist but becoming less so every day as we talk. If you really want to know my path relating to religion in detail, I will be glad to share it. However I do currently believe I have had more exposure to your religion than you have to my non-religion. (speaking in the most general of terms I possibly can, of course)
3) From where I currently am in my path of theories and playing with ideas and debating with my brother, I am of the current mindset that religion is often more harmful than good and if I can help just one person see that and see why I think that way, then maybe it will help speed us along to the day I see when religion is categorized as insanity and humans experience life completely differently than we do now.
I will no longer entertain replies that deal in wording or semantics. I do not care to have a theological debate. My desire is to entice someone or someones to make the brave leap and follow the path of an atheist and find out why I and many others are so. I'm not saying I'm right, though of course I do believe I am. And if you end the journey more sure of your faith, then fine, and if you decide that you need to re-examine what you believe to be true, then I will do anything I can to point you in some of the directions you may ultimately desire to take.
Simply put, my brother and I talk about this stuff all the time, and in the last year or so I've watched my brother change from a hardcore Christian to where he is today where he can see religion from a different perspective but is currently not yet ready to let go of "God". I wish to share some of these things with you.
|
Not to sound like an arrogant asshole, but you've just proven me correct.
No longer can you call atheism anything other than a religion (your version, at least).
It exhibits all the qualities of a proselytizing religion that you claim to hate. Hell, you admit that you want to create harmful conflict ("...I fully intend to offend you and shake you and call you names....") simply to get a rise out of people ("...I love saying totally whacky things to see what you do....") (wouldn't that make you a troll in your own forum? better get to banning yourself quick!).
In other words, you're attacking other religions for doing only the exact same things that you have been doing this whole time.
I don't want to say that makes you a hypocrite because I would think you to be above something like that, but if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck....
So when are you going to organize your fellow atheists into an army against us infidels (non-believers in nothing, that is) who have been oppressing you all for so, so long?
Walter Keith Koester: September 22, 1962 - March 15, 2005
God be with you, Uncle Wally.
(<---New(ish) Prayer Group Forums)
(<---Archived Prayer Group Forums)
[Updated on: Wed, 30 August 2006 07:56] Report message to a moderator |
|
|
|
| Re: Jesus [message #216244 is a reply to message #216217] |
Wed, 30 August 2006 07:56 |
|
|
| Crimson wrote on Wed, 30 August 2006 07:00 |
1) Christianity and maybe other religions tell you that those who don't believe are going to hell and may even tell you that we're EVIL. I don't want you praying for me or worrying about me.
2) You are my friends and I believe several of you are intelligent enough to really step back and examine your faith. I'm waiting for someone to swallow their long-held pride and ask the difficult questions you may not want to know the answer to. I'm waiting for someone to be brave enough to take a small journey in the path of an atheist and see what makes us tick. I've taken a tour through the Christian faith and have spent many a sleepless night discussing with my brother who is still a theist but becoming less so every day as we talk. If you really want to know my path relating to religion in detail, I will be glad to share it. However I do currently believe I have had more exposure to your religion than you have to my non-religion. (speaking in the most general of terms I possibly can, of course)
3) From where I currently am in my path of theories and playing with ideas and debating with my brother, I am of the current mindset that religion is often more harmful than good and if I can help just one person see that and see why I think that way, then maybe it will help speed us along to the day I see when religion is categorized as insanity and humans experience life completely differently than we do now.
|
1) How is being prayed for offensive? As you care for us as friends, that's the same sentiment that we share.
2) I've examined my faith... a lot. I am no longer the brainwashed Christian that my high school made me. I was blind as to why I believed what I believed. I thank public education and a maturing brain for my release from the religious prison. I have questioned my faith. I have also brought in the Big Bang and other evolutionist ideas into my beliefs. I still believe God is the ultimate authority, is infinite, and I do believe in a Heaven and Hell. However, I do see that the Bible is more or less a story book. Not in the sense that you see it as, but in the sense where it's telling historical events in a more children story book type of way.
3) Religion is harmful. Religion is very much corrupt and evil. However, belief isn't. Believing in a higher power poses no threat to mankind. However, joining everybody together and shunning the rest of the world and considering them heathens is bad. Fortunately, that's not what true Christianity is about.
Libertarian Party | The King's Throne | The Soda Shop
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Jesus [message #216253 is a reply to message #216245] |
Wed, 30 August 2006 08:59 |
|
|
| Hydra wrote on Wed, 30 August 2006 10:58 |
| Quote: |
...the most fickle people on the internet... (I'm lookin' at you, j_ball)
|
I rest my case.
|
Lies. I'm not that fickle. It's quite normal for people our age to change our beliefs and feelings towards certain things. As non-religious science was being taught to me, I slowly started to combine the two to create a happy medium. They both satisfy each other. What Crimson has said has not change my position one bit as there's not much more I can change on. I've found my happy medium. I will always believe in God, the sacrifice Jesus made, and his Resurrection. That I cannot and will not let go of.
Libertarian Party | The King's Throne | The Soda Shop
|
|
|
|
| Re: Jesus [message #216338 is a reply to message #215250] |
Wed, 30 August 2006 16:11 |
|
|
(the first version made no sense on re-reading)
Second try:
No authority on religion has said that God (in whatever form) DID or DID NOT create the big bang. Therefore, it's fine for a Christian (or whatever) to beleive that God DID create the big bang.
Heck, I arrived that conclusion about... 10 years ago... (I am 15)
Renguard is a wonderful initiative
Toggle Spoiler
| BBC news, quoting... |
Supporters of Proposition 8 will argue California does not discriminate against gays, as the current law allows them to get married - as long as they wed a partner of the opposite sex.
|
| halokid wrote on Mon, 11 October 2010 08:46 |
| R315r4z0r wrote on Mon, 11 October 2010 15:35 |
|
the hell is that?
|
[Updated on: Wed, 30 August 2006 16:14] Report message to a moderator |
|
|
|
| Re: Jesus [message #216339 is a reply to message #215250] |
Wed, 30 August 2006 16:15 |
 |
Oblivion165
Messages: 3468
Registered: June 2003
Location: Hendersonville, North Car...
Karma: 0
|
General (3 Stars) |
|
|
I never believed in life after death, people die all the time and are brought back..the story is always the same.
Blackness, and nothing.
WOL: Ob165ion Skype: Oblivion165 Yahoo Instant Messenger: CaptainJohn165
|
|
|
|
| Re: Jesus [message #216368 is a reply to message #216227] |
Wed, 30 August 2006 18:16 |
|
Crimson
Messages: 7427
Registered: February 2003
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Karma: 0
|
General (5 Stars)
ADMINISTRATOR |
|
|
| warranto wrote on Wed, 30 August 2006 06:04 |
ugh.. Time and time again I've stated this. You can not use Religion to debate the existance of God.
Religion, even with it's God-derrived holy books, is still a human interpretation of something. It's inherrent falability does not dictate the non-existance of a God.
The Christian faith is NOT the absolute authority on all-things-God. Proving it is fallible will NOT prove that God does not exist.
Religion being good or bad does NOT prove or disprove the existance of God.
If someone is not going to believe in God's existance due to the failings of ANY religion, then I feel sorry for them. Not because they no longer believe God exists, nor becaues they're "going to Hell". I feel sorry for them because that is such pathetic reasoning on their part. That's just as bad as me stating: Crimson's idea's of following the rules are faulty, because of the special treatment her brother gets. Therefore, because there is some fault in the way Crimson does things, she must not exist!
|
That's funny that you speak in such absolutes. I'm sure a Christian would disagree with you, for while you (if I understand you correctly) believe that there's a God but religion is made by man, fallible, and faulty, there are millions of others who believe the bible is the word of God etc. So don't SCOLD me for speaking in absolutes and then go and do the same thing you accuse me of. These are YOUR beliefs on how God is in your opinion.
I'm the bawss.
|
|
|
|
| Re: Jesus [message #216369 is a reply to message #216235] |
Wed, 30 August 2006 18:19 |
|
Crimson
Messages: 7427
Registered: February 2003
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Karma: 0
|
General (5 Stars)
ADMINISTRATOR |
|
|
| Scythar wrote on Wed, 30 August 2006 07:02 |
What Crimson, for example, is doing is trying to spread (more or less) the idea that we should accept "God doesn't exist" into the category of absolute truths of ours, and not really spend any more time thinking about such unprobable and outright silly things. Same applies inversely to theists.
|
You failed 100%. I never said that you should accept that as an absolute truth. I am speaking to those who don't consider it a possibility, and suggest that they consider it as a possibility.
I'm the bawss.
|
|
|
|
| Re: Jesus [message #216371 is a reply to message #216242] |
Wed, 30 August 2006 18:22 |
|
Crimson
Messages: 7427
Registered: February 2003
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Karma: 0
|
General (5 Stars)
ADMINISTRATOR |
|
|
| Hydra wrote on Wed, 30 August 2006 07:52 |
Not to sound like an arrogant asshole, but you've just proven me correct.
No longer can you call atheism anything other than a religion (your version, at least).
It exhibits all the qualities of a proselytizing religion that you claim to hate. Hell, you admit that you want to create harmful conflict ("...I fully intend to offend you and shake you and call you names....") simply to get a rise out of people ("...I love saying totally whacky things to see what you do....") (wouldn't that make you a troll in your own forum? better get to banning yourself quick!).
In other words, you're attacking other religions for doing only the exact same things that you have been doing this whole time.
I don't want to say that makes you a hypocrite because I would think you to be above something like that, but if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck....
So when are you going to organize your fellow atheists into an army against us infidels (non-believers in nothing, that is) who have been oppressing you all for so, so long?
|
A troll? Do you know what a troll is or not? Oh noes, I popped your little safe bubble where no one is allowed to question you? I'm sorry, I thought this was the Hot Topics forum, but what I do I know, I just established it!
I'm the bawss.
|
|
|
|
| Re: Jesus [message #216372 is a reply to message #215250] |
Wed, 30 August 2006 18:23 |
 |
jnz
Messages: 3396
Registered: July 2006
Location: 30th century
Karma: 0
|
General (3 Stars) |
|
|
wow, triple post.
| Oblivion165 wrote on Thu, 31 August 2006 00:15 |
I never believed in life after death, people die all the time and are brought back..the story is always the same.
Blackness, and nothing.
|
that is a good thing to hope for.
| CarrierII wrote on Thu, 31 August 2006 00:11 |
(I am 15)
|
cool, so am i.
[Updated on: Wed, 30 August 2006 18:25] Report message to a moderator |
|
|
|
| Re: Jesus [message #216373 is a reply to message #216244] |
Wed, 30 August 2006 18:29 |
|
Crimson
Messages: 7427
Registered: February 2003
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Karma: 0
|
General (5 Stars)
ADMINISTRATOR |
|
|
| j_ball430 wrote on Wed, 30 August 2006 07:56 |
1) How is being prayed for offensive? As you care for us as friends, that's the same sentiment that we share.
|
I don't remember specifically saying it was offensive. Considering what I believe, why would I be offended that you sit alone talking to the air about me?
| Quote: |
2) I've examined my faith... a lot. I am no longer the brainwashed Christian that my high school made me. I was blind as to why I believed what I believed. I thank public education and a maturing brain for my release from the religious prison. I have questioned my faith. I have also brought in the Big Bang and other evolutionist ideas into my beliefs. I still believe God is the ultimate authority, is infinite, and I do believe in a Heaven and Hell. However, I do see that the Bible is more or less a story book. Not in the sense that you see it as, but in the sense where it's telling historical events in a more children story book type of way.
|
I completely respect that. You took a step back from what's been drilled into your head all your life and removed the stuff that didn't make sense to you. I hope that you don't plan to stop there and evolve (if you will) your beliefs as new thoughts and ideas come around that make sense to you.
| Quote: |
3) Religion is harmful. Religion is very much corrupt and evil. However, belief isn't. Believing in a higher power poses no threat to mankind. However, joining everybody together and shunning the rest of the world and considering them heathens is bad. Fortunately, that's not what true Christianity is about.
|
I agree. I totally understand that some people need to believe in a higher power watching over them and protecting them, and others need to believe someone is watching them when no one else is to keep them from doing bad things. In fact, I suggested to someone just in the last couple of months that their schizophrenic, bipolar son would probably do good to "find Jesus".
Thank you for addressing the subject matter instead of the other posts that attempt to derail.
I'm the bawss.
[Updated on: Wed, 30 August 2006 18:29] Report message to a moderator |
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Jesus [message #216377 is a reply to message #216053] |
Wed, 30 August 2006 18:39 |
|
jnz
Messages: 3396
Registered: July 2006
Location: 30th century
Karma: 0
|
General (3 Stars) |
|
|
| 300 Proofs of God's Existence |
ARGUMENT FROM INFINITE REGRESS
(1) Ask Atheists what caused the Big Bang.
(2) Regardless of their answer, ask how they know this.
(3) Continue process until the Atheist admits he doesn't know the answer to one of your questions.
(4) You win!
(5) Therefore, God exists.
|
ask me any question about the big bang and i will give you my theory.
| Crimson wrote on Thu, 31 August 2006 02:31 |
I can quadruple and quintuple post. I'm the boss. I think people who get upset about multiple posts are retards, unless those posts are spam.
|
i don't mind double posting(or more), just pointing out. i must admit when poeple complanin it is annoying.
[Updated on: Wed, 30 August 2006 18:43] Report message to a moderator |
|
|
|
| Re: Jesus [message #216389 is a reply to message #216368] |
Wed, 30 August 2006 20:30 |
|
warranto
Messages: 2584
Registered: February 2003
Location: Alberta, Canada
Karma: 0
|
General (2 Stars) |
|
|
| Crimson wrote on Wed, 30 August 2006 19:16 |
That's funny that you speak in such absolutes. I'm sure a Christian would disagree with you, for while you (if I understand you correctly) believe that there's a God but religion is made by man, fallible, and faulty, there are millions of others who believe the bible is the word of God etc. So don't SCOLD me for speaking in absolutes and then go and do the same thing you accuse me of. These are YOUR beliefs on how God is in your opinion.
|
I was scolding you for speaking in absolutes? Please enlighten me as to where I did that. All I did was say to speak what you mean; if you mean the absolute, then use the absolute. That's what I did. I never once suggested my ideas were held by fellow Christians.
I believe in God, and I believe that the bible is the word of God. I also know that Religion is a human interpretation of a religious text, which is why the Christian faith (as well as many others) have more than one religion based around those teachings.
As for the expression of my personal beliefs, I have yet to reveal any but the most basic of my position. Everything I've been arguing is not necessarily what I believe.
[Updated on: Wed, 30 August 2006 20:30] Report message to a moderator |
|
|
|
| Re: Jesus [message #216392 is a reply to message #216227] |
Wed, 30 August 2006 22:41 |
|
Crimson
Messages: 7427
Registered: February 2003
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Karma: 0
|
General (5 Stars)
ADMINISTRATOR |
|
|
| warranto wrote on Wed, 30 August 2006 06:04 |
The Christian faith is NOT the absolute authority on all-things-God.
|
I'm sure Christians would disagree with that. This is your opinion. I agree with it, but it's still an opinion. It's POSSIBLE that the Christian faith has it 100% right, and while it is possible, you can't state for a fact that it's not.
I'm the bawss.
|
|
|
|
| Pages (9): [ 6 ] |
  |
Goto Forum:
Current Time: Sat Apr 27 16:59:21 MST 2024
Total time taken to generate the page: 0.01318 seconds
|
Search
Help
Members
Register
Login
Home
