Home » General Discussions » Heated Discussions and Debates » hope none of you are them
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| Re: hope none of you are them [message #209870 is a reply to message #207824] |
Wed, 26 July 2006 13:16   |
mision08
Messages: 525
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Location: Cattle Drive, Dallas to F...
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| JohnDoe wrote on Wed, 26 July 2006 05:42 |
I'm going to believe in Pink Unicorns because their existance makes me feel good!
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How can anyone think of trolling with such an intellectual discussion taking place?
There are a number of possible reasons your parents don't love you Scott. Maybe you were an accident. Mom trying to feed her hungry children and ends up with another mouth to feed. Maybe your dad doesn't like the sissy way you swing the bat.
I know, it's because you're not quite evil enough. You're quasi evil, you're semi evil, you're the margarine of evil, you're the diet coke of evil, just 1 calorie not evil enough.
Unicorns, why not Bambi or Puff the Magic Dragon?
True Greatness, and just a good human
The best finish, closest finish in the 50 year history of Winston Cup
Freddy Krueger music video
Harvester Of Sorrow, language of the mad
Johnny Cash & Bob Dylan A Thousand Miles Behind
Your own personal Jesus, someone to hear your prayers
Kyle's mom is a bitch
Johnny Cash Live @ San Quentin
Don't Y'all Think This Outlaw Bit's Done Got Out Of Hand?
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| Re: hope none of you are them [message #209872 is a reply to message #207824] |
Wed, 26 July 2006 14:17 |
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warranto
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Why not...Puff the Magic Dragon?
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'Cause he lives by the sea. Besides, you can only see him in the autumn mist in a land called honah lee.
Edit: ok, that was lame on my part. Continue with the discussion.
[Updated on: Wed, 26 July 2006 14:17] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: hope none of you are them [message #209887 is a reply to message #207824] |
Wed, 26 July 2006 15:55 |
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Sniper_De7
Messages: 866
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Location: Wisconsin
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I used to watch that when I was young. Fun stuff.
Oderint, dum metuant.
It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat. - Theodore "Teddy" Roosevelt
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| Re: hope none of you are them [message #209943 is a reply to message #209869] |
Thu, 27 July 2006 00:57 |
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JohnDoe
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| warranto wrote on Wed, 26 July 2006 15:15 |
| JohnDoe wrote on Wed, 26 July 2006 12:33 |
Not a bit crazier than the other people who believe in mythical figures.
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True, too bad you rely on them to simply make you "feel better". Too bad no one can prove one way or the other that they really ARE "mythical figures".
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Obviously not, but that's what God and Heaven is about. Some mythical figure/place that cannot be disproven, but makes people feel good about the afterlife and secure about the universe/their surroundings.
Mision08, I wouldn't have expected you to understand my metaphor anyway...after all, there are things living at the bottom of ponds with more wit than you.
lol
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| Re: hope none of you are them [message #209971 is a reply to message #209943] |
Thu, 27 July 2006 06:14 |
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warranto
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Location: Alberta, Canada
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| JohnDoe wrote on Thu, 27 July 2006 01:57 |
Obviously not, but that's what God and Heaven is about. Some mythical figure/place that cannot be disproven, but makes people feel good about the afterlife and secure about the universe/their surroundings.
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Not true. Admittedly, that is what some people use the concept of God for, but that is not the "reason" for God and heaven.
God, in simplist terms, is the creator of all that is, was, and ever will be. That has nothing to do with making you "feel good". Heaven is simply the expression of the place where God resides. Simply because some disillusioned people seem to use those examples as a way to feel better doesn't mean that those reasons are the way things actually are.
As for that "mythical" expression, it may be true that there is no factual basis for the existance of God, but there is also no factual basis for many other things that the average person is told to be true (err.. didn't we have this discussion in some other thread?). As such, it's a moot point.
Unless, you're using the term "mythical" to suggest that God is fictitious. If that is the case, then prove it. Nothing can be labeled fictitious unless there is some sort of proof to suggest otherwise.
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| Re: hope none of you are them [message #209976 is a reply to message #209686] |
Thu, 27 July 2006 06:30 |
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DarkKnight
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Location: Cincinnati, OH
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| KIRBY-098 wrote on Tue, 25 July 2006 09:02 |
| Darkknight wrote on Tue, 25 July 2006 08:51 |
| KIRBY-098 wrote on Mon, 24 July 2006 19:45 |
sigh..........
Java, come back please.
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??? wow great comeback. your sighing which part. all of it, could you come up with a more intelligent response then just sigh....
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The supreme irony here is your rant about christians being hateful to each other.
Anyways:
You have regugitated the same thing that was posted about 14 times in this topic in an attempt make yourself look holier than thou. The debate here is about the authenticity of the bible. What you posted is a tangential rant out of left field.
So instead of adding to the debate in a positive way you have managed to not only inflame the debate in a negative way, but also alienated other believers.
This is oh so typical of believers who cannot defend the faith they espouse because they are so unfamiliar with how the basic tenets of the faith link to the prophecy and wisdom of the Old Testament.
I tire of circular logic from fellow believers when real people need real answers.
Seekers don't need mysticism based on ignorance whether intentional or unintentional. Especially when it ends in the usual circular logic.
It's ok to say, "I don't know.". What's not ok, is not looking for the answer.
Java has brought a real and valid question to sharp focus. That's where our focus in this topic should lie, because it's the root of everything else in this topic.
If the bible cannot be supported as real, then everything else is irrelevant.
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The supreme irony here is your rant about christians being hateful to each other.
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The true irony of this was you were obviously offended by what I wrote. There is a big difference between a religious type and a Christian. Religious types make a mockery out of what a Christian is. Every example I gave that you found distasteful was of a religious person not a Christian. If that offended you, you might want to look in the mirror and ask yourself, which one best describes you.
As for being hateful, I am not hateful towards other Christians. I do however do not like those who say there are Christians, but are really just religious types in disguise.
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So instead of adding to the debate in a positive way you have managed to not only inflame the debate in a negative way, but also alienated other believers.
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I stated above, true believers do not pretend. So I wasn’t referring to them at all. I see you read what I wrote with a very judgmental eye yourself. Do you do this with all who post? Don’t answer that was just thinking out loud.
You obviously missed the whole point of my post and focused on the negative instead of trying to understand my point. It’s not out of left field. Unless I’m wrong this post is about the Bible and whether its really the word of God or not.
What my post was pointing out is your talking to someone who doesn’t believe their even is a God so how can you prove a book from or by him is real if they don’t believe He even exists. What I was pointing out is all the hypocrisy they see in the world from fellow religious types who call themselves “Christians” just because they do all the same actions. Actions without true belief does not a Christian make.
Talking to an atheist about whether the Bible is real or not is the equivalent of trying to make them believe that the Christmas presents under your tree was really put their by Santa Claus.
So you need to go about this differently then the 8 pages already on here or the only thing you will have when its all said and done is both sides agreeing the other is wrong.
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| Re: hope none of you are them [message #209986 is a reply to message #209971] |
Thu, 27 July 2006 08:03 |
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JohnDoe
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| warranto wrote on Thu, 27 July 2006 08:14 |
| JohnDoe wrote on Thu, 27 July 2006 01:57 |
Obviously not, but that's what God and Heaven is about. Some mythical figure/place that cannot be disproven, but makes people feel good about the afterlife and secure about the universe/their surroundings.
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Not true. Admittedly, that is what some people use the concept of God for, but that is not the "reason" for God and heaven.
God, in simplist terms, is the creator of all that is, was, and ever will be. That has nothing to do with making you "feel good". Heaven is simply the expression of the place where God resides. Simply because some disillusioned people seem to use those examples as a way to feel better doesn't mean that those reasons are the way things actually are.
As for that "mythical" expression, it may be true that there is no factual basis for the existance of God, but there is also no factual basis for many other things that the average person is told to be true (err.. didn't we have this discussion in some other thread?). As such, it's a moot point.
Unless, you're using the term "mythical" to suggest that God is fictitious. If that is the case, then prove it. Nothing can be labeled fictitious unless there is some sort of proof to suggest otherwise.
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I used "feel good" because it's provokative and therefore fit in the rest of the post...let's rephrase it to "explain things that men couldn't", then. It's always been like that and always will be.
I use the term mythical in the same way as I would label bigfoot , the yeti or of course my pink unicorns...there's no proof going their way or suggesting otherwise. I choose not to believe it, others do.
lol
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| Re: hope none of you are them [message #209991 is a reply to message #207824] |
Thu, 27 July 2006 08:42 |
KIRBY-098
Messages: 338
Registered: July 2006
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Recruit |
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| Darkknight wrote on Thu, 27 July 2006 08:30 |
I stated above, true believers do not pretend. So I wasn’t referring to them at all. I see you read what I wrote with a very judgmental eye yourself. Do you do this with all who post? Don’t answer that was just thinking out loud.
You obviously missed the whole point of my post and focused on the negative instead of trying to understand my point. It’s not out of left field. Unless I’m wrong this post is about the Bible and whether its really the word of God or not.
What my post was pointing out is your talking to someone who doesn’t believe their even is a God so how can you prove a book from or by him is real if they don’t believe He even exists. What I was pointing out is all the hypocrisy they see in the world from fellow religious types who call themselves “Christians” just because they do all the same actions. Actions without true belief does not a Christian make.
Talking to an atheist about whether the Bible is real or not is the equivalent of trying to make them believe that the Christmas presents under your tree was really put their by Santa Claus.
So you need to go about this differently then the 8 pages already on here or the only thing you will have when its all said and done is both sides agreeing the other is wrong.
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There is a vast chasm of difference between objectivity and bias.
You seem to have trouble seperating the two.
In order to have an intellligent conversation in an objective way there are no "tricks" to getting them to see my point that there are secular supports for the authenticity of the bible.
Whatever this "religiosity" rant is pointed at, I fail to see how that links in any way to this discussion.
Quite opposite from offended, I am baffled at how you are making this link in my defense of the bible. Instead of discussing the important topic at hand you've somehow hijacked this into an ad hominem "Real" christian contest.
Which is how these topics always seem to end.
Someday I hope to have real discussion on the veracity of the bible. This is not that day apparently.
[Updated on: Thu, 27 July 2006 08:48] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: hope none of you are them [message #210005 is a reply to message #209986] |
Thu, 27 July 2006 09:31 |
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warranto
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| JohnDoe wrote on Thu, 27 July 2006 09:03 |
I used "feel good" because it's provokative and therefore fit in the rest of the post...let's rephrase it to "explain things that men couldn't", then. It's always been like that and always will be.
I use the term mythical in the same way as I would label bigfoot , the yeti or of course my pink unicorns...there's no proof going their way or suggesting otherwise. I choose not to believe it, others do.
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Even then, the only people who use God to explain things that they can't (and I mean as a definitive it-can-be-no-other-way type of answer) are wrong, but that doesn't mean that is why God is there. Some just prefer to use him that way.
The only problem with comparing God to those other things is that all of them but God has a physical being to bee seen. Therefore there is the possibility of being proven/disproven. There is no physical being that could be identified as God. That puts him, for better or worse, in a unique category which is seperate from the standard mythologies.
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| Re: hope none of you are them [message #210010 is a reply to message #210005] |
Thu, 27 July 2006 10:09 |
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JohnDoe
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Registered: May 2006
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| warranto wrote on Thu, 27 July 2006 10:31 |
| JohnDoe wrote on Thu, 27 July 2006 09:03 |
I used "feel good" because it's provokative and therefore fit in the rest of the post...let's rephrase it to "explain things that men couldn't", then. It's always been like that and always will be.
I use the term mythical in the same way as I would label bigfoot , the yeti or of course my pink unicorns...there's no proof going their way or suggesting otherwise. I choose not to believe it, others do.
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Even then, the only people who use God to explain things that they can't (and I mean as a definitive it-can-be-no-other-way type of answer) are wrong, but that doesn't mean that is why God is there. Some just prefer to use him that way.
The only problem with comparing God to those other things is that all of them but God has a physical being to bee seen. Therefore there is the possibility of being proven/disproven. There is no physical being that could be identified as God. That puts him, for better or worse, in a unique category which is seperate from the standard mythologies.
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Don't you use God to explain something that you can't understand (formation of the universe) as well?
Use the mothman then...lol it's really not another category.
lol
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| Re: hope none of you are them [message #210016 is a reply to message #207824] |
Thu, 27 July 2006 10:18 |
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warranto
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Heh, how'd I know that would be used...
Yes, I use God as the explaination as to how the universe was created. However, that example, I'm sure is a minor exception to the rule. Now, before you go crying hypocrite, hear me out.
I relate you back to our previous argument about this. Something created the universe, as science is so fond of expressing, nothing physical can be create itself. I'm not claiming that the Christian idea of God, or anything like that. I'm simply saying that something created the universe, and we call that something "God".
But what about the universe having always existed? Ok, then God didn't create the universe, but now the path has been open to state that it is possible for God to have always existed as well.
Mothman doesn't work either. Mothman and bigfoot both have a physical body to be identified with. That encompasess the "Physical and therefore seeable" category. God has no physical body, and therefore belongs in the "non-physical and therefore unseeable" category.
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| Re: hope none of you are them [message #210022 is a reply to message #207824] |
Thu, 27 July 2006 10:48 |
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JohnDoe
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Our previous arguement ended somewhere along the lines of my opinion being that the pre-Bigbang Universe was nothing alike the post-Bigbang Universe and is absolutely unimaginable/unexplainable, but lead to the Bigbang and therefore creation of our known Universe, and I just call both "Universe", because there are no other words.
Your view was pretty similar to this, but you decided to call the unknown "God"...which pretty much proves my point.
I'm not really into myths, but I'm sure there are some without physical appearance and are therefore known for their character traits...just like God is known for being an eternally nice fella.
lol
[Updated on: Thu, 27 July 2006 10:49] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: hope none of you are them [message #210095 is a reply to message #207824] |
Thu, 27 July 2006 17:33 |
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Crimson
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OK, here are a few questions that I can't seem to find an answer to:
1) Why did this perfect and unchanging God need or want to create a universe or the Earth or us? Please do not use "his plan" in your answer because it's a very flimsy excuse.
2) Why are churches allowed (presumably by God) to commit any number of sins in his name? Why hasn't God stopped this if he is omniscient and all-powerful? And if you give me a bullshit, unthought-out trained monkey response of "duhhhh free will" I will bitch slap you.
3) If God created the universe, who created God and why?
4) The universe has been around for about 13 billion years. It took about nine billion years before our Earth was formed, and single celled bacteria were forming ecosystems about a billion years after that. Life on Earth evolved and became more complex, as shown by the evidence for Earth’s history in its rocks and fossils. Then humans, God’s supposed reason for the whole creation, finally came along within the last 150,000 years or so — on one planet orbiting one of the trillions of stars. This seems like a lengthy, complex, massive, and apparently natural process for an omnipotent being that could have simply snapped everything (or just one magic planet) into existence. (This is copied from an essay by Mark Thomas, but I have often wondered the same thing) What is your response or explanation for this?
5) If we all know now that the Greek and Roman gods of the sun, fertility, thunder, etc. have had their functions and explained by science and have vanished in a puff of logic, then is it so far fetched to believe that since we haven't linked a scientific answer to the questions of "why are we here?" and "where do we go when we die?", that the Jehovah god is just as nonexistent as these ancient Greek and Roman gods and all the other hundreds of gods that have been invented by man over our existence?
6) This might be related to another question, but how can "free will" exist if God has a "plan" for us? How can I choose whether to turn left or right at a crossroad if God already has a "plan" that I will do one or the other?
The summarize, here is an interesting logical "proof" that God doesn't and can't exist. This is also from Mark Thomas.
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The Problem of Evil, or Theodicy
God also can’t be both omnibenevolent and omnipotent, because terrible events really do occur, and this all-loving god hasn’t prevented them. This is known as the Problem of Evil (also known as theodicy), and I think that it is one of the biggest problems for those attempting to prove the existence of the Christian god. How can anybody explain the existence of a loving, all-powerful god, while also knowing the bad things that happen to all of us and the terrible things that happen to far too many?
The ancient Greek philosopher Epicurus summed it up well when he wrote these ideas:
Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot; or he can and does not want to.
If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent.
If he can, but does not want to, he is wicked.
If, as they say, God can abolish evil, and God really wants to do it, why is there evil in the world?
And yet the idea of an all-knowing, all-powerful, and all-good god with free will won’t go away. So, here we are discussing this subject again. It’s good to remember that there have been over 2500 gods created by humankind. Monotheists don’t believe in all but one of them. Atheists don’t believe in just one more.
In fact, the existence of honest and kind Atheists is another proof that the Christian god, who demands belief, doesn’t exist. If this all-good god existed, it would want everybody to be saved — even Atheists. If this all-knowing god existed, it would know that Atheists just want real proof of its existence. If this god were all-powerful it would be able to give unambiguous proof of its existence. It hasn’t. Therefore this god doesn’t exist.
As I have shown, the concept of God is also logically contradictory; God not only does not exist but cannot exist. In short, God is impossible.
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I'm the bawss.
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| Re: hope none of you are them [message #210096 is a reply to message #207824] |
Thu, 27 July 2006 17:37 |
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Crimson
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Here's one other quote I agree with and love immensely, also from the same essay by Mark Thomas:
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Many religious people ask how Atheists can be happy without God. For me and for many Atheists I know, the realization of our Atheism has been extremely freeing and has opened us to our own happiness.
# Atheism helps us to see reality as it actually is, without the mental filters of superstition preventing us from directly experiencing it.
# Atheism opens us to experience our selves, without the debasing idea that we are innately sinful.
# Atheism allows us to experience true interpersonal love, without any imaginary supernatural intervention.
# Atheism gives us the freedom to think for ourselves, to construct our own meanings. We each can choose what we think has value.
# Atheism shows us that we can gain meaning by seeking to make our world a better place, for ourselves and our posterity.
# Atheism teaches us to take responsibility for our behaviors in the here and now, not in an imaginary afterlife.
# Atheism lets us see that we have to make choices about our future. No big daddy god is going to protect us from bad decisions.
# Atheism teaches us to treasure this moment, this life, and this world — because we realize that it’s all we have.
Atheism also can work well for free societies. Free nations with high levels of Atheism — such as Sweden, the Netherlands, Australia, Switzerland and Japan — are among the healthiest, wealthiest, most educated, and most free societies on Earth.
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I'm the bawss.
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| Re: hope none of you are them [message #210162 is a reply to message #207824] |
Fri, 28 July 2006 08:07 |
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warranto
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One huge problem with your arguments Crimson.
You can not argue RELIGION to argue GOD. They are exclusive of each other.
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Why did this perfect and unchanging God need or want to create a universe or the Earth or us? Please do not use "his plan" in your answer because it's a very flimsy excuse.
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Who knows. Something to do? Perhaps we're a byproduct of motions that he created. An accident, so to speak. (The primordial ooze and all that) The point is, it is a concept of religion that God created the universe specifically for us.
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Why are churches allowed (presumably by God) to commit any number of sins in his name? Why hasn't God stopped this if he is omniscient and all-powerful? And if you give me a bullshit, unthought-out trained monkey response of "duhhhh free will" I will bitch slap you.
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If you had bothered to answer my question the first time you brought this up, you'd have at least some progression on this topic.
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If God created the universe, who created God and why?
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If there is no God, how did the universe come to exist? Perhaps it was always there, and if that is the case, then the idea of God having always been there is not far fetched either.
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The universe has been around for about 13 billion years. It took about nine billion years before our Earth was formed, and single celled bacteria were forming ecosystems about a billion years after that. Life on Earth evolved and became more complex, as shown by the evidence for Earth’s history in its rocks and fossils. Then humans, God’s supposed reason for the whole creation, finally came along within the last 150,000 years or so — on one planet orbiting one of the trillions of stars. This seems like a lengthy, complex, massive, and apparently natural process for an omnipotent being that could have simply snapped everything (or just one magic planet) into existence. (This is copied from an essay by Mark Thomas, but I have often wondered the same thing) What is your response or explanation for this?
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What, and broken the laws of physics to do so in the process? Perhaps all he did to "create" the universe is set things in motion, and let the laws of physics develop itself. As you brought up before, why did he even create the universe for our benefit?
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If we all know now that the Greek and Roman gods of the sun, fertility, thunder, etc. have had their functions and explained by science and have vanished in a puff of logic, then is it so far fetched to believe that since we haven't linked a scientific answer to the questions of "why are we here?" and "where do we go when we die?", that the Jehovah god is just as nonexistent as these ancient Greek and Roman gods and all the other hundreds of gods that have been invented by man over our existence?
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Wrong. The Roman gods were not proven to have not existed. The CONCEPT the Romans had of their gods were dismissed. As I said, you can not argue religion to argue God.
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This might be related to another question, but how can "free will" exist if God has a "plan" for us? How can I choose whether to turn left or right at a crossroad if God already has a "plan" that I will do one or the other?
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Once again, you are arguing religion to argue God. The idea of God having a plan for us is a religious concept. Proving it wrong has no impact on the existance or lack thereof of God.
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God not only does not exist but cannot exist. In short, God is impossible.
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Based on what? The idea of the Christain religion being wrong? Once, yet again, you can not argue religion to argue God. Who cares if Christians got it wrong, that does not mean God does not exist, that just means that the Christian interpretation of God is wrong.
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Many religious people ask how Atheists can be happy without God. For me and for many Atheists I know, the realization of our Atheism has been extremely freeing and has opened us to our own happiness. (AND REST OF POST)
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All those things can be done while still posessing the belief that God exists. Therefor atheism is simply an excuse to make yourself feel better about you belief that God doesn't exist. It is no better or no worse than the belief in God. But hey, if it makes you feel better... to quote an earlier post,
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[it] makes people feel good [...] and secure about the universe/their surroundings.
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| Re: hope none of you are them [message #210171 is a reply to message #210162] |
Fri, 28 July 2006 09:48 |
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Scythar
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Location: Finland
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| warranto wrote on Fri, 28 July 2006 11:07 |
One huge problem with your arguments Crimson.
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The universe has been around for about 13 billion years. It took about nine billion years before our Earth was formed, and single celled bacteria were forming ecosystems about a billion years after that. Life on Earth evolved and became more complex, as shown by the evidence for Earth’s history in its rocks and fossils. Then humans, God’s supposed reason for the whole creation, finally came along within the last 150,000 years or so — on one planet orbiting one of the trillions of stars. This seems like a lengthy, complex, massive, and apparently natural process for an omnipotent being that could have simply snapped everything (or just one magic planet) into existence. (This is copied from an essay by Mark Thomas, but I have often wondered the same thing) What is your response or explanation for this?
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What, and broken the laws of physics to do so in the process? Perhaps all he did to "create" the universe is set things in motion, and let the laws of physics develop itself. As you brought up before, why did he even create the universe for our benefit?
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Is God still a God if he doesn't break the laws of physics? We don't even know what the laws of physics are when it comes to complicated matters. When thinking about God apart from any religion, it's a possibility among others, making him more or less like us: a machine. But it's all just speculation, we don't know anything about God unless we choose a religion that tries to describe him/it. We don't even know if he/it exists* ....the ultimage vagueness! It's even impossible to believe in such a thing, since forming any sort of belief is 99.9999% incorrect.
*You know, saying that God exists whether or not you believe in him is also a belief...it's STILL possible that God *doesn't* exist
Erm, I think I made a logical mistake somewhere, but I can't spot it. Gah, I love these discussions.
There's a hole in the sky through which things can fly.
[Updated on: Fri, 28 July 2006 09:50] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: hope none of you are them [message #210172 is a reply to message #207824] |
Fri, 28 July 2006 10:06 |
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Crimson
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That was even more unsatisfying than the response I predicted from the God-believers. Nitpicking at semantics rather than addressing some of the core reasons I simply can't believe in "god"/"God"/whatever.
I'm the bawss.
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| Re: hope none of you are them [message #210197 is a reply to message #207824] |
Fri, 28 July 2006 12:00 |
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Crimson
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I guess I just find it really a huge leap to take a religion's deity and say that the deity exists, but the religion that created him is all a bunch of hooey. I can totally agree that while science can get within nanoseconds of the Big Bang, we still don't know what happened before that. But to say and believe it was caused by something with a consciousness is still a leap of faith that I can't do.
I'm the bawss.
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