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| Re: Church of FSM [message #176248 is a reply to message #175124] |
Mon, 24 October 2005 16:39   |
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Hydra
Messages: 827
Registered: September 2003
Location: Atlanta, GA
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Colonel |
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A bit out of order, but whatever...
| Crimson |
So, in 'proving' that nothing else could have possibly "caused" all of this to come into existence, what is the "cause" that brought this "god" figure, or mover, into existence?
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| Crimson |
Causality is a human concept. You can't use a human concept to prove a supernatural concept.
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Likewise, you cannot disprove the existence of God/a supernatural concept using a human concept such as causality if God supposedly created it in the first place.
God's nature is not dictated by our science; He created it in the first place, so He is obviously not bound by His own creation's laws.
That's why you can't really say, "If God caused all this, then what caused God?" because nothing has to have caused God.
Was our physical world and nature suddenly dictated by the virtual laws governing Renegade when it was first created? Of course not. We are independent from the game's laws and mechanics as God is independent of this world.
Walter Keith Koester: September 22, 1962 - March 15, 2005
God be with you, Uncle Wally.
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[Updated on: Mon, 24 October 2005 16:42] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Church of FSM [message #176265 is a reply to message #175124] |
Mon, 24 October 2005 17:27 |
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Sniper_De7
Messages: 866
Registered: April 2004
Location: Wisconsin
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Colonel |
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are you saying you can't disprove beliefs? so... sun gods and water gods can't be disproven?
Oderint, dum metuant.
It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat. - Theodore "Teddy" Roosevelt
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| Re: Church of FSM [message #176267 is a reply to message #175124] |
Mon, 24 October 2005 17:38 |
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Sniper_De7
Messages: 866
Registered: April 2004
Location: Wisconsin
Karma: 0
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Colonel |
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The heck do i remember what the egyptians believed or the Greeks i just used it as an example.(if from what i remember the one for the greeks was about some chariot or whatever and that was the sun. Which obviously isn't true. what about if someone believed he could fly to the other end of the universe? beliefs can be disproven mate. or what about the belief that the earth was flat? disproved.
Oderint, dum metuant.
It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat. - Theodore "Teddy" Roosevelt
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| Re: Church of FSM [message #176270 is a reply to message #175124] |
Mon, 24 October 2005 17:54 |
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warranto
Messages: 2584
Registered: February 2003
Location: Alberta, Canada
Karma: 0
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General (2 Stars) |
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I'm not saying "beleifs" can not be disproven or proven.
I'm saying that the purpose of a belief is that you DON'T know, not in your ability to prove it right or wrong.
At the time the person had the belief that he could fly, did he know if he could? No, he simply had the belief that he could, he did not know.
In regards to God, this does not work as God is not a testable being (ie. testable under our current scientific knowledge). Flying, on the other hand, is testable. You just have to go and jump, and you will find out the answer.
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| Re: Church of FSM [message #176272 is a reply to message #175124] |
Mon, 24 October 2005 17:59 |
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Sniper_De7
Messages: 866
Registered: April 2004
Location: Wisconsin
Karma: 0
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Colonel |
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well i don't get the point of you saying "no one can know, ever".
Oderint, dum metuant.
It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat. - Theodore "Teddy" Roosevelt
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| Re: Church of FSM [message #176278 is a reply to message #175124] |
Mon, 24 October 2005 18:22 |
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Sniper_De7
Messages: 866
Registered: April 2004
Location: Wisconsin
Karma: 0
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Colonel |
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i think the confusion is about you saying no one can ever know, when they certainly well can know. if you meant to just say how good it is to believe in something because at the moment a person does not know the answer, then i could see that.
Oderint, dum metuant.
It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat. - Theodore "Teddy" Roosevelt
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| Re: Church of FSM [message #176282 is a reply to message #175124] |
Mon, 24 October 2005 18:33 |
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warranto
Messages: 2584
Registered: February 2003
Location: Alberta, Canada
Karma: 0
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General (2 Stars) |
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The only thing is, is that if you know the answer, you know the answer. You can not choose to believe something or not, because it is not a belief; it is knowledge.
You can not choose to believe something that you know the answer to. If it is a belief, then that person CAN'T know. It is physically impossible to say you believe something, and claim to know the truth.
A person who simply believes something can never know. Because once they know, it is no longer a belief.
Try this:
Ask your friend if they think you are good a particular game. (Simple enough)
Now, consider how well you think you can trust their responce. Do you know for 100% absolute certainty that what they say is the honest to goodness truth? Or is there even the slightest bit of a possiblity they may be lying, even if it is to be nice?
My bet is on the latter. You can not know for 100% absolute certainty that the person is telling the truth, and claim that you "trust/believe them". You can not KNOW, EVER if they are telling the truth. Sure, you can find out, but then you would say that you KNOW that they are telling the truth, you could not say that you BELIEVE them.
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| Re: Church of FSM [message #176284 is a reply to message #175124] |
Mon, 24 October 2005 18:48 |
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Sniper_De7
Messages: 866
Registered: April 2004
Location: Wisconsin
Karma: 0
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Colonel |
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I was just questioning the wording used
Oderint, dum metuant.
It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat. - Theodore "Teddy" Roosevelt
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| Re: Church of FSM [message #176296 is a reply to message #176248] |
Mon, 24 October 2005 19:38 |
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Crimson
Messages: 7428
Registered: February 2003
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Karma: 0
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General (5 Stars)
ADMINISTRATOR |
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| Hydra wrote on Mon, 24 October 2005 16:39 |
A bit out of order, but whatever...
| Crimson |
So, in 'proving' that nothing else could have possibly "caused" all of this to come into existence, what is the "cause" that brought this "god" figure, or mover, into existence?
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| Crimson |
Causality is a human concept. You can't use a human concept to prove a supernatural concept.
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Likewise, you cannot disprove the existence of God/a supernatural concept using a human concept such as causality if God supposedly created it in the first place.
God's nature is not dictated by our science; He created it in the first place, so He is obviously not bound by His own creation's laws.
That's why you can't really say, "If God caused all this, then what caused God?" because nothing has to have caused God.
Was our physical world and nature suddenly dictated by the virtual laws governing Renegade when it was first created? Of course not. We are independent from the game's laws and mechanics as God is independent of this world.
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I play both sides of the coin. I like to flirt around with different ideas and arugments.
I'm the bawss.
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| Re: Church of FSM [message #176326 is a reply to message #176296] |
Tue, 25 October 2005 03:08 |
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Oblivion165
Messages: 3468
Registered: June 2003
Location: Hendersonville, North Car...
Karma: 0
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General (3 Stars) |
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| Crimson wrote on Mon, 24 October 2005 22:38 |
| Hydra wrote on Mon, 24 October 2005 16:39 |
A bit out of order, but whatever...
| Crimson |
So, in 'proving' that nothing else could have possibly "caused" all of this to come into existence, what is the "cause" that brought this "god" figure, or mover, into existence?
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| Crimson |
Causality is a human concept. You can't use a human concept to prove a supernatural concept.
|
Likewise, you cannot disprove the existence of God/a supernatural concept using a human concept such as causality if God supposedly created it in the first place.
God's nature is not dictated by our science; He created it in the first place, so He is obviously not bound by His own creation's laws.
That's why you can't really say, "If God caused all this, then what caused God?" because nothing has to have caused God.
Was our physical world and nature suddenly dictated by the virtual laws governing Renegade when it was first created? Of course not. We are independent from the game's laws and mechanics as God is independent of this world.
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I play both sides of the coin. I like to flirt around with different ideas and arugments.
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Just like a woman, Does whatever she can to win.
WOL: Ob165ion Skype: Oblivion165 Yahoo Instant Messenger: CaptainJohn165
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| Re: Church of FSM [message #176334 is a reply to message #175124] |
Tue, 25 October 2005 05:34 |
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Goztow
Messages: 9727
Registered: March 2005
Location: Belgium
Karma: 13
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General (5 Stars)
Goztoe |
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Too many people base definitions here on "what I see is what's right". That's all but true, for exemple: a "color blind" person will see red as brown. So who's right? And don't tell me that what the majority sees is the definition of what's right then...
You can find me in The KOSs2 (TK2) discord while I'm playing. Feel free to come and say hi! TK2 discord
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| Re: Church of FSM [message #176339 is a reply to message #176334] |
Tue, 25 October 2005 06:26 |
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Oblivion165
Messages: 3468
Registered: June 2003
Location: Hendersonville, North Car...
Karma: 0
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General (3 Stars) |
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| Goztow wrote on Tue, 25 October 2005 08:34 |
Too many people base definitions here on "what I see is what's right". That's all but true, for exemple: a "color blind" person will see red as brown. So who's right? And don't tell me that what the majority sees is the definition of what's right then...
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Dont forget that colors maybe something completely different to someone else. My green maybe your blue or even closer to your red. There is no way to see what the other person is seeing. When we are young, people point to a color and say "thats green" so if infact that color is blue to you, you will never know.
Yup im aware thios has nothing to do with what you said, i just like to tell people stuff they may have never thought about.
WOL: Ob165ion Skype: Oblivion165 Yahoo Instant Messenger: CaptainJohn165
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| Re: Church of FSM [message #176384 is a reply to message #176334] |
Tue, 25 October 2005 10:47 |
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Javaxcx
Messages: 1943
Registered: February 2003
Location: Canada, eh?
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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| Goztow wrote on Tue, 25 October 2005 08:34 |
Too many people base definitions here on "what I see is what's right". That's all but true, for exemple: a "color blind" person will see red as brown. So who's right? And don't tell me that what the majority sees is the definition of what's right then...
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That's why you don't rely on sensorial experience to define objective truths.
Rationality is the key to determining that which you see as blue, and I as green. Reason might impose "red" to that colour, thus nullifying both intuitions. The point is, the notion of reason not a sensorial thing, and thus we can call it absolutely objective if used correctly. Of course different conditions result in different applications of reason, and some of the CONCLUSIONS are false, but what is important is that reason itself is never false as its very existence is a priori.
Sniper Extraordinaire
Read the FUD Rules before you come in and make an ass of yourself.
All your base are belong to us.
You have no chance to survive make your time.
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| Re: Church of FSM [message #176436 is a reply to message #176384] |
Tue, 25 October 2005 17:15 |
runewood
Messages: 138
Registered: October 2005
Location: SE Michigan
Karma: 0
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Recruit |
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I missed too many posts and this is getting into theory/phalosiphy so im out.
"Don't try to be a great man, just be a man. Let history make it's own judgments."
"Maybe its not the destination that matters, but the journey."
"How many people does it take before its wrong? A thousand? Fifty thousand? A million?"
"Im not here to tell you how it is going to end, Im here to tell you how it is going to begin."
"Its not the end or even the beggining of the end, mearly the end of the beggining."
"Logic is the beginning of wisdom; not the end."
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| Re: Church of FSM [message #176478 is a reply to message #175124] |
Wed, 26 October 2005 02:24 |
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Crimson
Messages: 7428
Registered: February 2003
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Karma: 0
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General (5 Stars)
ADMINISTRATOR |
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No, not really. I can prove the non-existence of "God" in my own mind using any approach.
I'm the bawss.
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