Home » General Discussions » Heated Discussions and Debates » Hurricane Katrina Aftermath
| Re: Hurricane Katrina Aftermath [message #169438 is a reply to message #169437] |
Sun, 04 September 2005 17:34   |
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DarkDemin
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| SuperFlyingEngi wrote on Sun, 04 September 2005 19:59 |
| MrBob wrote on Sun, 04 September 2005 15:26 |
Shut up. Just shut up. Why couldn't you write about how people can help, thanking other nations for their support, or maybe about how this disater could have been prevented? Instead, you had to bring your bullshit politics in the field. You, Kennedy, and NPR are not helping the liberal cause, the victims, or anyone else with your empty accusations and blame. Even I have had enough of your crap.
The relief helicopters were shot at. Gang leaders have power over the city for the first time, and they love it. It doesn't matter to them if people are dying or if food and water supply is lacking. They've become warlords, and they want to keep it that way. The leaders of the rescue effort didn't expect this to happen, so actual military force wasn't counted as necessary.
Now pray, give a dollar if you are able, be thankful, stop blaming people, and pray.
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1) There's not very much individuals can do to help, unless they happen to own a Skycrane helicopter or something. Sure, you can adopt a family, and I applaud everyone who does it, but there aren't as many people as there need to be with the economic ability to support another family for at least a month.
2) What, you thought I didn't appreciate the help other countries offer? Duh, of course I do. But, "Thank you England" might as well be spam because nothing will come of it.
3) This could have been prevented, or at least reduced in severity, if the government had kept funding the levees, some of which broke. But George Bush in his lying way said, "There's no way this could have been foreseen." I don't know about you, but I find that quite disgusting.
And yes, of course I will be donating to this cause, and more than a dollar, too.
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1) You're stupid becuase people can volunteer to go and help with the Red Cross for supply distribution. I know a couple of people that are heading there right now.
2) I am glad people have enlightened me on the situation of countries providing aid.
3) The government has been attempting to have those levees upgraded for years but corrupt city counsels kept pocketing the money or redirecting it to self interest items. Stop blaming George Bush for the problems they had in the first few days, the governers should have delcared a state of emergancy as soon as they relized the magnitude. There is very little a president can do in this situation, if anyone should be blamed it should be the director of FEMA or the local and state officials. Bill Clinton as stated before basically told CNN to "STFU" on this situation with the president. The black caucus leader should be ashamed of himself, along with the mayor of New Orleans for saying "The president doesn't care about black people."
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| Re: Hurricane Katrina Aftermath [message #169470 is a reply to message #169331] |
Sun, 04 September 2005 22:47 |
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exnyte
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| SuperFlyingEngi wrote on Sun, 04 September 2005 09:31 |
especially compared to the largest Category 5 hurricane ever record hitting New Orleans, of all places.
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Actually... Katrina weakened to a Category 4 hurricane before making landfall, and it didn't hit New Orleans head on, it went to the east.
This is all on: Killer Hurricane - The Anatomy of Katrina on the Discovery Channel.
| SuperFlyingEngi wrote on Sun, 04 September 2005 18:59 |
3) This could have been prevented, or at least reduced in severity, if the government had kept funding the levees, some of which broke. But George Bush in his lying way said, "There's no way this could have been foreseen." I don't know about you, but I find that quite disgusting.
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Here is an idea... Stop blaming Bush for every goddamn thing that happens that you feel is wrong. The levees were built in 1965. That's LONG before Bush took office. If there was a substantial need for the levees to be upgraded, it would have taken place long before either Bush took office.
If you want to blame someone for them breaking, maybe you should blame those who thought to only engineer them to withstand a Category 3 hurricane (as they were built after the city flooded in 1965 after Hurricane Besty (a Cat. 3 hurricane). The reason the levees were not upgraded was because they were hit with lesser hurricanes and withstood them. This must have given those in power false hope that they didn't require it.
You want to blame someone? Blame that person, or group of individuals. This problem started LONG before Bush was even mentioned in a Presidential nature.
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[Updated on: Sun, 04 September 2005 22:58] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Hurricane Katrina Aftermath [message #169500 is a reply to message #169438] |
Mon, 05 September 2005 07:13 |
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SuperFlyingEngi
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| DarkDemin wrote on Sun, 04 September 2005 20:34 |
1) You're stupid becuase people can volunteer to go and help with the Red Cross for supply distribution. I know a couple of people that are heading there right now.
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Good for them. But before FEMA got itself organized, people like those wouldn't be able to do anything. There were actually people who sailed in to New Orleans after the storm and got turned around because FEMA didn't want them in the city.
| Darkdemin |
2) I am glad people have enlightened me on the situation of countries providing aid.
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That's one of the more artificial responses I've heard in a while.
| Darkdemin |
3) The government has been attempting to have those levees upgraded for years but corrupt city counsels kept pocketing the money or redirecting it to self interest items. Stop blaming George Bush for the problems they had in the first few days, the governers should have delcared a state of emergancy as soon as they relized the magnitude. There is very little a president can do in this situation, if anyone should be blamed it should be the director of FEMA or the local and state officials. Bill Clinton as stated before basically told CNN to "STFU" on this situation with the president. The black caucus leader should be ashamed of himself, along with the mayor of New Orleans for saying "The president doesn't care about black people."
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Do you have something more definite on corrupt city officials blocking levee upgrades? Because the government really did cut levee funding by 60%. And even if there was a lot of corruption going on, why didn't Bush just send a federal prosecutor down to New Orleans?
So, are you saying there's nothing wrong with George Bush taking the first 4 days of the hurricane aftermath on vacation?
And there's a long tradition of Presidents not criticising each other's policy that's basically never been broken. I'm not saying Clinton necessarily is disgusted at Bush too, but if he were he wouldn't show it.
And yes, the FEMA director should definitely be fired. Who, coincidentally, was the college roommate of the previous FEMA director, with no other real qualifications other than being a bar examiner in Oklahoma.
| majikent |
Actually... Katrina weakened to a Category 4 hurricane before making landfall, and it didn't hit New Orleans head on, it went to the east.
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True, but that's one of the weaknesses of the current hurricane rating system we use, the Saffir-Simpson system
http://gulf-coast-info.com/hurricane/hurricane-rating-system .html
One of the things it fails to take into effect is the size of the storm. As far as diameter goes, Hurricane Katrina was an INCREDIBLE storm. It was 210 miles wide as far as hurricane force winds were concerned. That's pretty big. Plus, it was a slow storm. So New Orleans didn't just get a big hurricane, it got a big one for a long time. That combined with breaking levees made for a bit of a problem.
| majikent |
The levees were built in 1965. That's LONG before Bush took office. If there was a substantial need for the levees to be upgraded, it would have taken place long before either Bush took office.
If you want to blame someone for them breaking, maybe you should blame those who thought to only engineer them to withstand a Category 3 hurricane (as they were built after the city flooded in 1965 after Hurricane Besty (a Cat. 3 hurricane). The reason the levees were not upgraded was because they were hit with lesser hurricanes and withstood them. This must have given those in power false hope that they didn't require it.
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60% FUNDING CUT! Not a lack upgrades, but a 60% FUNDING CUT!!!
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -- Theodore Roosevelt (1918)
"The danger to political dissent is acute where the Government attempts to act under so vague a concept as the power to protect "domestic security." Given the difficulty of defining the domestic security interest, the danger of abuse in acting to protect that interest becomes apparent. --U.S. Supreme Court decision (407 U.S. 297 (1972)
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| Re: Hurricane Katrina Aftermath [message #169502 is a reply to message #168787] |
Mon, 05 September 2005 07:25 |
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The President, for the most part, doesn't meddle in state business. The funding for the levees is not controlled by the President, but rather the local and state government. Were the officials nieve to think that the current levees were enough to protect the city? Yes, but that doesn't mean that the President was going to step in and order more funding for the levees. He left it up to the state and local officials to make the decision on their own, which ultimately was the wrong one. It was a stupid decision, but they're human just like you. This problem just has happened to be magnified because this was a hurricane spreading over 3 states, hit a large and popular city of the US, and has left millions homeless. It's a horrible event, but now is NOT the time to be pointing fingers.
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| Re: Hurricane Katrina Aftermath [message #169505 is a reply to message #168787] |
Mon, 05 September 2005 08:20 |
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exnyte
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j_ball430, how dare you say that? Of course, it was Bush. You can't be filling his little liberal mind with common sense, it needs to be spoon fed liberal propaganda and other anti-Bush ideas, so he can live his life without having to think for himself. For once maybe you could think of someone else besides yourself? Sheesh, what's this world coming to?
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| Re: Hurricane Katrina Aftermath [message #169523 is a reply to message #168787] |
Mon, 05 September 2005 10:24 |
_ToXiN_
Messages: 60
Registered: November 2003
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Recruit |
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Uh, superflying<insert-witty-object-here>, you do realize that "60%" funding cut is not at all correct if you're talking about the Army Engineers Corps who build and maintain the levees in places like that. The cuts made by Bush were 7% and 13% in budget for the Corp, plus you have to remember that it's practicly tradition for presidents to fuck around with the Corps budgets, Reagen did it, Clinton did it, Bush did it. Hell, blame all of them rather than picking on the one currently in charge.
I suggest you go read up on your arguements before you make them. It helps when you don't look like a blubbering idiot.
Oh and could I just say, that even Clinton pretty much said that at times like this the one thing to do is put politics aside till it's all sorted out? You do realize that it's people like you who slow the process down, eventually you'll turn in to that person if you were in government that wants everything checked three times and everything would have to go the longest route possible just to satisfy your petty little political needs.
You realize I'm a person who usually belittles the US every chance I get? Ask Hydra, I have liberal and conservative extremes implanted in to me pretty deep, I'm the poster boy of sarcastic jabs at any politican. To top it off I'm a hypocrite and I've found myself being somewhat of a racist at times. Yet even I can see past my loathing, hate and such long enough to actually donate to the red-cross and to feel sympathy for the people who've had to go through this bull without bursting out about FEMA, about Bush or anything else (Actually I've grown rather fond of that Geraldo chap on Fox news and also that general who says "Over" after he's done speaking in an interview and ready for another question.). You on the other hand? You probably see this as one huge steping stone for your current political agenda. You'll use this as a way to make Bush look like he was the one who was asleep at the wheel, oh I bet if you looked back far enough you could probably blame this on the first conservative to ever walk this earth. How nice for you.
Oh, I feel obliged to remind you, that twenty years from now when the world has gone to hell in a hand basket and all your liberalistic ideals have been passed as law... you'll be a conservative, you'll have found your comfort zone with the world and suddenly you'll become the person arguing the conservative view. I'm not particularly fond of conservatives, but at least they have more common sense and a better moral core than most of you liberal types do.
Anyway, did anyone see the civilian helicopter that crashed over the weekend apparently? Bad looking stuff that. Sadly I figure it won't be the last one to go down.
"I am Jack's smirking revenge."
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| Re: Hurricane Katrina Aftermath [message #169575 is a reply to message #169523] |
Mon, 05 September 2005 17:52 |
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SuperFlyingEngi
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| _ToXiN_ wrote on Mon, 05 September 2005 13:24 |
Uh, superflying<insert-witty-object-here>, you do realize that "60%" funding cut is not at all correct if you're talking about the Army Engineers Corps who build and maintain the levees in places like that. The cuts made by Bush were 7% and 13% in budget for the Corp, plus you have to remember that it's practicly tradition for presidents to fuck around with the Corps budgets, Reagen did it, Clinton did it, Bush did it. Hell, blame all of them rather than picking on the one currently in charge.
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"Natural and man-made defences have long been neglected. A 10-year plan to strengthen levees after a 1965 hurricane was never completed. But the skimping has worsened since President Bush's election, particularly after 11 September. Federal spending on flood control in south-east Louisiana has been cut by almost half since 2001, from $69m (£34.5m) per year to $36.5m. Funds for work at Lake Pontchartrain, the source of the flooding, have fallen by nearly two-thirds over three years, from $14.25m to $5.7m. As a result, work on New Orleans' east bank hurricane levees stopped last summer for the first time in 37 years.
The US Army Corps of Engineers, which maintains the levees, requested $27m this year for hurricane protection around the lake. President Bush tried to cut this to $3.9m, although Congress allowed $5.7m. The President also tried to cut $78m to improve drainage and prevent flooding in the city to $30m, though Congress passed $36.5m. A $14bn longer-term project to restore marshes was cut to $570m."
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article310195.e ce
60% was a rough number, the multiple real ones are above and below that.
Additionally, are you suggesting Clinton, Reagan, and Bush Sr. cut big numbers out of the Corps of Engineers?
| Toxin |
I suggest you go read up on your arguements before you make them. It helps when you don't look like a blubbering idiot.
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You too.
| Toxin |
Oh and could I just say, that even Clinton pretty much said that at times like this the one thing to do is put politics aside till it's all sorted out? You do realize that it's people like you who slow the process down, eventually you'll turn in to that person if you were in government that wants everything checked three times and everything would have to go the longest route possible just to satisfy your petty little political needs.
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What do you suggest should be done in times like this when people make incredible mistakes, like the Director of FEMA and George Bush? Should we just forget about it because people are suffering for it? I can donate to the Red Cross and, get this, criticise George Bush's negligent actions at the same time.
| Toxin |
Oh, I feel obliged to remind you, that twenty years from now when the world has gone to hell in a hand basket and all your liberalistic ideals have been passed as law... you'll be a conservative, you'll have found your comfort zone with the world and suddenly you'll become the person arguing the conservative view.
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...wtf?
Need I remind you that the core liberal ideals are basically everyone gets health care and every worker gets a living wage? I suppose you wouldn't get to go take advantage of poverty-stricken U.S. and overseas workers by buying from Wal-Mart. Too bad.
| Toxin |
Anyway, did anyone see the civilian helicopter that crashed over the weekend apparently? Bad looking stuff that. Sadly I figure it won't be the last one to go down.
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Yeah, but I think I heard everyone got out safe. Those Seakings are built tough.
"And so many of the people in the arena here, you know, were underprivileged anyway, so this (she chuckled slightly)--this is working very well for them."
-Former First Lady Barbara Bush, after visiting refugees at the Houston Astrodome.
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -- Theodore Roosevelt (1918)
"The danger to political dissent is acute where the Government attempts to act under so vague a concept as the power to protect "domestic security." Given the difficulty of defining the domestic security interest, the danger of abuse in acting to protect that interest becomes apparent. --U.S. Supreme Court decision (407 U.S. 297 (1972)
The Liberal Media At Work
An objective look at media partisanship
[Updated on: Mon, 05 September 2005 17:53] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Hurricane Katrina Aftermath [message #169673 is a reply to message #169500] |
Tue, 06 September 2005 15:48 |
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Crimson
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| SuperFlyingEngi wrote on Mon, 05 September 2005 07:13 |
So, are you saying there's nothing wrong with George Bush taking the first 4 days of the hurricane aftermath on vacation?
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Um, just for the record, Bush didn't stay on vacation for 4 days after the storm:
http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/08/31/bush.katrina/
^ In this article on Wednesday, Bush flew over the region on his way back to DC (this is about 48 hours after the storm which was on Monday)
He didn't visit the region until Friday but considering he's not doing any search-and-rescue, I don't see what that changes. This is a classic example of you exaggerating and stretching the truth to make things sound worse than they are.
Speaking of which, it was reported in several places that Bill Frist, the Senate Majority Leader, was lending his skills as a doctor to give medical attention to people at the airport. I don't care which party he aligns with, just the fact that a politician got down and dirty is just awesome. If there are any others that I don't know about, I'd love to hear it.
I'm the bawss.
[Updated on: Tue, 06 September 2005 15:48] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Hurricane Katrina Aftermath [message #169675 is a reply to message #169600] |
Tue, 06 September 2005 15:51 |
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SuperFlyingEngi
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| gbull wrote on Tue, 06 September 2005 08:38 |
ah, the political rantings of someone who needs little reason nor logic to complain about our president. I was starting to miss that SFE.
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I take it you're withholding the "why"?
| Crimson |
Um, just for the record, Bush didn't stay on vacation for 4 days after the storm:
http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/08/31/bush.katrina/
^ In this article on Wednesday, Bush flew over the region on his way back to DC (this is about 48 hours after the storm which was on Monday)
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You got me, I should've looked the whole day thing up a bit more closely. Notwithstanding, he still was on vacation for the first 2 days of this storm, which is pretty much the maximum amount of time before everyone starts dying. So is 2 days ok with you?
| Crimson |
He didn't visit the region until Friday but considering he's not doing any search-and-rescue, I don't see what that changes. This is a classic example of you exaggerating and stretching the truth to make things sound worse than they are.
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Everyone visits disaster areas, at least for photo ops, to talk with the people, and make sure the supply chain is working. Whatever Bush's reason, coming 4-5 days late is way past the deadline.
| Crimson |
Speaking of which, it was reported in several places that Bill Frist, the Senate Majority Leader, was lending his skills as a doctor to give medical attention to people at the airport. I don't care which party he aligns with, just the fact that a politician got down and dirty is just awesome. If there are any others that I don't know about, I'd love to hear it.
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Good for him. And Al Gore chartered a private jet to fly 140 people or something out of Louisiana. I'll see if I can find the article I read that in for you.
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -- Theodore Roosevelt (1918)
"The danger to political dissent is acute where the Government attempts to act under so vague a concept as the power to protect "domestic security." Given the difficulty of defining the domestic security interest, the danger of abuse in acting to protect that interest becomes apparent. --U.S. Supreme Court decision (407 U.S. 297 (1972)
The Liberal Media At Work
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[Updated on: Tue, 06 September 2005 15:58] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Hurricane Katrina Aftermath [message #169678 is a reply to message #168787] |
Tue, 06 September 2005 16:02 |
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Crimson
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I imagine he didn't pay much attention to the news while the storm was raging. I would say the storm got his attention when the levees broke, meaning, some staffer probably briefed him on the state of affairs in New Orleans shortly after the major news outlets reported it. Wasn't that on Tuesday morning? Hindsight is 20/20, I guess, but I wouldn't say 2 days is acceptable either. I was correcting your doubling of the delay, not trying to justify his actions.
I'm the bawss.
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| Re: Hurricane Katrina Aftermath [message #169691 is a reply to message #169675] |
Tue, 06 September 2005 17:10 |
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Jecht
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| SuperFlyingEngi wrote on Tue, 06 September 2005 18:51 |
| gbull wrote on Tue, 06 September 2005 08:38 |
ah, the political rantings of someone who needs little reason nor logic to complain about our president. I was starting to miss that SFE.
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I take it you're withholding the "why"?
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Your right, weather catastrophes are definitely the president's fault. He obviously didn't put enough money into Hurricane-proofing the Gulf of Mexico. Seriously, if you build a city thats elevation is below sea level to begin with, don't expect it to be flood proof.
[Updated on: Tue, 06 September 2005 17:14] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Hurricane Katrina Aftermath [message #169768 is a reply to message #168787] |
Wed, 07 September 2005 13:59 |
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SuperFlyingEngi
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Especially if you slash funding the levees that protect the city.
And I'm not saying the hurricane was his fault [although to be fair, it is partially becaue of global warning. You know we're already up to the "O" names in tropical storms? And the season isn't done yet? And this was the largest Category 5 hurricane ever recorded.] The evacuation failure was partially his fault. For being on vacation days before the hurricane hit when everyone was saying it would be an incredible disaster, and then staying 2 days more or whatever it was this thread established without making sure that rescue operations were running at maximum capacity. That's what the President of the United States is supposed to do in times like these.
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -- Theodore Roosevelt (1918)
"The danger to political dissent is acute where the Government attempts to act under so vague a concept as the power to protect "domestic security." Given the difficulty of defining the domestic security interest, the danger of abuse in acting to protect that interest becomes apparent. --U.S. Supreme Court decision (407 U.S. 297 (1972)
The Liberal Media At Work
An objective look at media partisanship
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| Re: Hurricane Katrina Aftermath [message #169772 is a reply to message #168787] |
Wed, 07 September 2005 14:29 |
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You know what? I bet you were one of those liberals who completely agreed with the New York Times about how much Bush was WASTING on funding for the levees. You were, weren't you? Don't be afraid to admit it, we already know that you're low enough to do that.
Oh, and don't blame Bush for the poor evacuation. It was the governor's fault. Bush wanted to know the game plan and such, but the governor told Bush to wait 24 hours. Yes, the GOVERNOR put Bush off, so don't you dare go blaming him for that. You sicken me.
Libertarian Party | The King's Throne | The Soda Shop
[Updated on: Wed, 07 September 2005 14:31] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Hurricane Katrina Aftermath [message #169774 is a reply to message #168787] |
Wed, 07 September 2005 14:30 |
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Sniper_De7
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Location: Wisconsin
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I'm going to say the majority of the people who were still there probably could have left long before the hurricane hit. if you're worried about your stuff being stolen (when it could just as well be ruined by a flood) just take the most important things.. just in case
Oderint, dum metuant.
It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat. - Theodore "Teddy" Roosevelt
[Updated on: Wed, 07 September 2005 14:31] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Hurricane Katrina Aftermath [message #169780 is a reply to message #169768] |
Wed, 07 September 2005 15:48 |
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Hydra
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| SuperFlyingEngi wrote on Wed, 07 September 2005 16:59 |
Especially if you slash funding the levees that protect the city.
And I'm not saying the hurricane was his fault [although to be fair, it is partially becaue of global warning. You know we're already up to the "O" names in tropical storms? And the season isn't done yet? And this was the largest Category 5 hurricane ever recorded.] The evacuation failure was partially his fault. For being on vacation days before the hurricane hit when everyone was saying it would be an incredible disaster, and then staying 2 days more or whatever it was this thread established without making sure that rescue operations were running at maximum capacity. That's what the President of the United States is supposed to do in times like these.
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You have no understanding of the concept of federalism, do you?
Everything you have ever written disgusts me. This thread is proof of just how pathetic you are.
You're not worth anyone's time to refute the BULLSHIT that you spew.
Pull your head out of the donkey's ass and THINK FOR YOURSELF FOR ONCE, AND QUIT BLAMING BUSH FOR EVERYTHING!!!!!!!!!!
Walter Keith Koester: September 22, 1962 - March 15, 2005
God be with you, Uncle Wally.
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