Home » Tiberian Technologies / Blackhand Studios » Other Products » Unit Balance
| Unit Balance [message #86269] |
Sun, 09 May 2004 10:37   |
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Deathgod
Messages: 504
Registered: February 2003
Location: The House of B
Karma: 0
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| flyingfox |
I'd like to know if anyone in this thread has actually played the one level that held this theory (in a fairly large server, i.e. 7 v 7 or ideally 10 v 10+), C&C city flying exp. If you don't have it, get it here - http://www.cncden.com/ren_ackmaps.shtml and read the changes to units. The only difference is the helicopter pads don't restore ammo, they only repair airborne units. See if you can organise a game or get a bigger server to run it. If you can have a few games on this map, with at least 7 players on each side, come back and comment. Ideally, I'd ask FUD to run it since they're server admins that've been reading this topic the most, but they don't want things changed and their server would probably sit empty anyway. If fastc0nn or renstation could run it, they'd get players.
(Edit) If you're interested and can't find anyone to play it with, add foxofts to your buddy list and we can have 1v1 aircraft vs stealth tank/mammoth tank/mrls/rocket soldier fights on it, to see how well the rockets seek and if the aircraft can stay alive (they reload in 10 second intervals, it's an alternative to going back to base but leaves you exposed).
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I know our server would sit empty, because we don't run mod maps on it ever. No one that comes would have the map so it would be empty every time that map came up. We tried doing this a long time ago and no one had the maps so we canned it. We've never seen a mod map that was better than the regular maps anyhow, so this is not a decision I am saddened by. I'll check out his map sometime in the next day or two here, though.
WOL: priestofb
FUD Online for Renegade character details
The preceding post was sponsored by FUD.
We are the way, you are in the way.â„¢
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| Unit Balance [message #86273] |
Sun, 09 May 2004 10:55 |
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PointlessAmbler
Messages: 318
Registered: February 2004
Karma: 0
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| Deathgod |
If someone's in the window you can rocketspam in there from above with little to no fear of counterattack, while you send one of your team to rape them.
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All the more reason to have limited helicopter ammunition, then. They wouldn't squander it to try to hurt attackers with splash damage, and would attack something worthwhile - tanks, or a building.
Red Alert: A Path Beyond Manual Writer
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| Unit Balance [message #86275] |
Sun, 09 May 2004 11:04 |
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Deathgod
Messages: 504
Registered: February 2003
Location: The House of B
Karma: 0
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Colonel |
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| PointlessAmbler |
| Deathgod |
There are only so many places to hide on each map... not to mention that characters ducking in and out of places on the map are easy to spot because of their movement.
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It doesn't even matter if they hide, because they can shoot you down from the maximum view distance. Infantry are pretty damn hard to see from 300 meters away, especially when they're not moving or better, hiding. Their bullets don't give you hints as to where they are.
Ramjets do let you know where the shot is coming from, but since they kill you in five shots and Ramjets have a four round clip, it's basically impossible to close the distance and kill them in time even if you know exactly where they are.
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Rarely do I get sniped in an aircraft from 300 meters. In fact I can count on one hand the number of times that happened recently, and that was on Friday night in our FUDvsFUD game. I flew around from a different path and owned the sniper, and the problem was solved.
| PointlessAmbler |
| Deathgod |
They have a role, but if you fly into an area full of snipers expect to die, just like any other unit rushing into an area full of counterunits. If I drive my Medium Tank into an area with 3 or 4 Raveshaws, I expect to die. This is what some people call common sense.
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My point is, Snipers are supposed to be counterunits to infantry, not light vehicles. Where in any game, C&C included, has a sniper rifle been effective against even the lightest vehicle armor? Commandos in C&C have a hell of a time killing a goddamn Nod Buggy, and this game is supposed to be based on C&C. I'm not saying there shouldn't be air counters, that's retarded, there needs to be a counterunit to everything. I'm just saying that picking Snipers to be counterunits to aircraft was a poor design choice. I'm also saying that units should at least stand some sort of chance against counterunits, because if they don't, the unit is worthless. As you used in your example, a Medium Tank (800) can actually defend itself against one Raveshaw (1000). Agreed, two or three can rip it to pieces. With aircraft, however, it only takes one Sniper (500, 55% the cost of attack aircraft) or n00bjetter (only slightly more expensive than the aircraft) to kill the damn thing with the same speed that it would take two Raveshaws (which cost 2000, 2.5 times the cost of the Medium Tank), especially when it's a unit that is supposed to be attacking infantry.
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I would not disagree that picking snipers was a poor design choice, given their instant hit capability and incredible range compared to the unit they're countering, but I don't think it's really as horrible as you guys all make it out to be. I mean, 3 GDI rifle soldiers can shoot an apache down in just under 5 seconds. FUKEN NERF TEM TOOOOOO GOOD!!!!!1 As I have pointed out to ACK many times, if this game took from its source material (C&C) exactly, it would be horribly un-fun. C&C worked well as an RTS, but ported straight to FPS form certain considerations must be made to make gameplay flow faster. RenAlert is really slow, and it's just like Red Alert. I can appreciate the work that went into their mod, and I think they did an excellent job, but I can't play it because it takes about 2 weeks to drive to an enemy base through fairly empty terrain. Having maps 5 or 6 times the size of the ones in Ren is cool and all if you have stuff to fill the map with. The reason Ren works so well is because of its smaller maps and faster pace. This is a different issue though, and I am going off on a tangent.
On this point: Raveshaw and PIC Syd both kill Orca/Apache in 4 shots. They have a 200m range as opposed to the Orca's 100m range. Are you going to nerf them too?
| PointlessAmbler |
| Deathgod |
As it stands now an Orca can kill numerous LTs, this is a big downgrade.
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Except it never gets the chance to because he gets shot down long before he approaches a target worth attacking. I'm saying that Helipads would be a better way of limiting aircraft than making them completely die against any sort of counterattack.
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So making it so they couldn't kill vehicles on their own when they can now makes them better... I fail to see the logic here.
| PointlessAmbler |
| Deathgod |
See above. If you're going to make helis require ammo, all vehicles should also. It would be horribly stupid within the confines of the Renegade engine to have one vehicle for each team with such a handicap... I can't see them being too useful if they need to be flying back to base after firing at one target.
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I don't see how it's a handicap... helis are support units by nature. If you use them at the right time (ie. when you're doing an assault on the enemy base, and soften up enemy armor a bit), they can be quite useful. Why not implement them the way that C&C did it, instead of making them die the second they leave their base?
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So are APCs and Humvees, and apparently Stealth Tanks according to you. Should they all have to reload at base too? CONSISTENCY PLZ
| PointlessAmbler |
| Deathgod |
So since someone has been around longer their opinion is automatically more correct than someone else's? Wrong. I personally think that they are both idiots, and so are you. Since I have been here since the old-school Ren forums does that make me right? No. Number of posts or length of forum tenure doesn't mean fuck.
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Meh, it's not his opinion that I'm talking about when I say that, it's that he has pulled out all the cliches: calling him a n00b for disagreeing, saying it's a horrible idea without any support behind his argument, and the "I'm right, you're not, that means USUX" attitude, not to mention poor grammar and spelling :rolleyes: Therefore, it's a bit hypocritical for him to call someone else a n00b when he himself is unable to provide a well-thought-out counterargument and misspells words in his post.
I don't think you're a moron just because we happen to disagree: you're actually capable of coming up with a coherent counterargument, a rare ability on the endless void of stupidity known as the Internet.
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I'm glad you agree on this point, but you should have phrased it better in the first place to avoid this problem.
WOL: priestofb
FUD Online for Renegade character details
The preceding post was sponsored by FUD.
We are the way, you are in the way.â„¢
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| Unit Balance [message #86284] |
Sun, 09 May 2004 11:55 |
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PointlessAmbler
Messages: 318
Registered: February 2004
Karma: 0
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| Deathgod |
Rarely do I get sniped in an aircraft from 300 meters. In fact I can count on one hand the number of times that happened recently, and that was on Friday night in our FUDvsFUD game. I flew around from a different path and owned the sniper, and the problem was solved.
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Huh, maybe the people you play with use snipers as intended instead of sniping Mammoth Tanks for points even though it doesn't hurt them at all. You may be able to count on that in your own servers, (you seem to have a pretty strict set of rules, including the ability to kick people because they don't play up to your standards (not that I disagree with that kind of enforcement)) but there are countless others where people abuse the snipers' capabilities and the bug in armor.ini elsewhere in Renegade.
| Deathgod |
On this point: Raveshaw and PIC Syd both kill Orca/Apache in 4 shots. They have a 200m range as opposed to the Orca's 100m range. Are you going to nerf them too?
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Of course not, they're INTENDED to be anti-vehicle units, whereas snipers are not. Plus, note that they have only a 200m range while snipers have a 300m range.
| Deathgod |
So making it so they couldn't kill vehicles on their own when they can now makes them better... I fail to see the logic here.
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Increasing helicopters' durability by itself would be a nightmare for any ground unit. Just look at RenAlert's .991 release. The Apache Longbow pwned absolutely everything, and you could only kill it with like two units. However, if Helipads are implemented and sniper damage against helicopters goes down, the weakness of the helicopter goes away, but it doesn't become the UBER-n00b-PWNZOR vehicle, either, because its ammunition is limited. The two actions balance out. So, helicopters become balanced in addition to making the game closer to the game it's based on.
| Deathgod |
So are APCs and Humvees, and apparently Stealth Tanks according to you. Should they all have to reload at base too?
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No, because they didn't have to reload in C&C. Also, Stealth Tanks are support units in my opinion because you can't use them in the same way you would use a main battle tank like a Medium Tank or a Mammoth Tanks. Doing that gets you killed. Hence, I consider it a 'support' unit. Sure, they do lots of damage, but if you don't approach from behind, or travel with other Nod vehicles, or are unstealthed all the time because you fire at Rifle Soldiers, you're going to get killed, fast. I've lost count of how many times Stealth Tanks have decloaked and fired at the front of my Medium Tank, leading to their quick death.
Red Alert: A Path Beyond Manual Writer
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| Unit Balance [message #86288] |
Sun, 09 May 2004 12:05 |
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m1a1_abrams
Messages: 375
Registered: August 2003
Karma: 0
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Commander |
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| Javaxcx |
Remember, the game isn't snipers vs. aircraft, it's GDI vs. Nod.
I personally, don't waste any of my ammo on aircraft (mostly because I don't waste my money with the 1000 credit sniper over the 500 credit one) because when I'm a sniper, I'm going after infantry. Shooting down aircraft is just a costly bonus.
Chances are, if you're playing a 10 vs. 10 game, and you're planning on camping out and hunting down choppers, you're going to have opposition from tanks, stealth units, other infantry, whatever. It all balances out.
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Maybe you don't waste your ammo on aircraft, but it's been my experience that most snipers do. In fact, if you are in any light armoured vehicle, a lot of snipers will switch to shooting you instead of more important targets, just because they know they can kill you easily. I've seen plenty of snipers go out of their way to kill Buggies, even if they were in the middle of a firefight with other infantry and the Buggy wasn't doing anything threatening.
| Javaxcx |
Where in any CNC game has a mere infantry unit been able to shoot down Orcas and Apaches that are airboune? Don't complain about those technicalities unless you're willing to change them all. That includes engineers having those repair guns, infantry (or any ground unit for that matter, save rocketeers) shooting down airbourne units, the Obelisk able to shoot down Orcas, and so on.
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That's a fair point, but remember that in C&C, Minigunners would be able to damage an aircraft on the ground, whereas the Commando's sniper rifle still wouldn't do any damage. If the Renegade maps were flat like the maps in the original C&C, then fine, you could give all units without rocket launchers a restriction on aiming upwards. The problem is, Renegade maps are three dimensional with slopes and bridges etc. You would end up with problems such as infantry not being able to shoot at other ground units up a hill, because unlike vehicles, infantry stay vertical regardless of the terrain. You can't stop their weapons from causing damage to aircraft either, because they need to be able to damage grounded aircraft.
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| Unit Balance [message #86297] |
Sun, 09 May 2004 12:35 |
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Javaxcx
Messages: 1943
Registered: February 2003
Location: Canada, eh?
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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Yes of course, any unit could attack an airbourne unit when it was grounded. But since it isn't feasible to do the same kind of thing in Renegade, and given the nature of the game, the munitions, and the whole kip'n'kabooble, snipers shouldn't be touched. The reasons have to been stated so many times over that it's pointless to reiterate them.
Essentially, it breaks down to changing sniper's damage against airbourne units for two reasons: To remake the CNC experience "properly", and to balance the game. Thankfully, only one of those is subjective, the latter. Looking at the first, if you're going to change something such as that, you HAVE to be willing to change the countless other aspects of the game that are not based on CNC.
Sniper Extraordinaire
Read the FUD Rules before you come in and make an ass of yourself.
All your base are belong to us.
You have no chance to survive make your time.
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| Unit Balance [message #86306] |
Sun, 09 May 2004 13:21 |
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Deathgod
Messages: 504
Registered: February 2003
Location: The House of B
Karma: 0
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Colonel |
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| PointlessAmbler |
Huh, maybe the people you play with use snipers as intended instead of sniping Mammoth Tanks for points even though it doesn't hurt them at all. You may be able to count on that in your own servers, (you seem to have a pretty strict set of rules, including the ability to kick people because they don't play up to your standards (not that I disagree with that kind of enforcement)) but there are countless others where people abuse the snipers' capabilities and the bug in armor.ini elsewhere in Renegade.
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Why do you think we have such rules? I tire of people being fagmars in this game, so I don't let them on our server. The pointwhore mentality is pretty rare when we're in a game nowadays. We prefer that our teams will work together on vehicle rushes and tactics designed to win the game by destroying everything rather than by getting points.
| PointlessAmbler |
Of course not, they're INTENDED to be anti-vehicle units, whereas snipers are not. Plus, note that they have only a 200m range while snipers have a 300m range.
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That's still twice what the air units have. They also can kill Stanks in 5 shots, plus infantry in one. TOTALY FUKEN BORKED TEY NED NERFINS MAEK TEM SHOOT CHIKNES TEHN IS FAIRS
| PointlessAmbler |
Increasing helicopters' durability by itself would be a nightmare for any ground unit. Just look at RenAlert's .991 release. The Apache Longbow pwned absolutely everything, and you could only kill it with like two units. However, if Helipads are implemented and sniper damage against helicopters goes down, the weakness of the helicopter goes away, but it doesn't become the UBER-n00b-PWNZOR vehicle, either, because its ammunition is limited. The two actions balance out. So, helicopters become balanced in addition to making the game closer to the game it's based on.
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I never proposed increasing their durability. I think helis are in fact perfectly fine the way they are. The snipers are what appear to be the issue here, so change them. Don't change both because one is broken; change the part that's broken then see how it works when it's fixed. I would point out that the reason I don't play RenAlert is because of things like that. I dislike the way it plays; in Renegade a lot of units can take down aircraft, it's just that everyone thinks snipers are cooler because they do it faster. I have news for them: Rav/PIC are just as good but they hurt ALL the vehicles that much. Also, in the original C&C and in Red Alert you could build antiair structures to counter air units, so the fact that those aren't in Renegade is probably a lot of the reason for allowing snipers to damage them. Flying one Orca into an area with 3 SAM sites and wondering why you died is the same issue as flying one into an area with 3 snipers and wondering why you died; the answer is because you are stupid.
| PointlessAmbler |
No, because they didn't have to reload in C&C. Also, Stealth Tanks are support units in my opinion because you can't use them in the same way you would use a main battle tank like a Medium Tank or a Mammoth Tanks. Doing that gets you killed. Hence, I consider it a 'support' unit. Sure, they do lots of damage, but if you don't approach from behind, or travel with other Nod vehicles, or are unstealthed all the time because you fire at Rifle Soldiers, you're going to get killed, fast. I've lost count of how many times Stealth Tanks have decloaked and fired at the front of my Medium Tank, leading to their quick death.
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You can use Stanks in the same way, you just have to be a good driver. I don't think the fact that it requires skill means it's a support unit... frankly I fear a rush of Stanks more than just about anything in the game, except maybe a Mammy rush on certain maps. Pointing out that people who use certain units are stupid players is not justification for a balance change.
WOL: priestofb
FUD Online for Renegade character details
The preceding post was sponsored by FUD.
We are the way, you are in the way.â„¢
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| Unit Balance [message #86332] |
Sun, 09 May 2004 16:13 |
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PointlessAmbler
Messages: 318
Registered: February 2004
Karma: 0
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| Deathgod |
The snipers are what appear to be the issue here, so change them. Don't change both because one is broken; change the part that's broken then see how it works when it's fixed.
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Okay then, I propose, to make the largest number of people happy as possible, to reduce the damage snipers do to aircraft and leave it at that. Want to shoot down aircraft? Use a PIC or Rav. instead. Not a n00bjet. That is the main problem. If ACK wants to release maps with Helipads, he can, and I'll probably play them, and some people probably won't. However, for the rest of the RenGuard users, just reduce sniper damage to aircraft. Bam! Problem solved.
Red Alert: A Path Beyond Manual Writer
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| Unit Balance [message #86417] |
Mon, 10 May 2004 02:05 |
sfr3f
Messages: 33
Registered: April 2004
Karma: 0
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Pretty funny to knock fly-boys out of the sky with standard infantry, but that's not the point. Of cource you can take down aircraft with just about everything. But you can't take out aircraft far outside of their range with everything.
Question: how fast do Orcas/Apaches move in m/s, discounting the time to accelerate?
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| Unit Balance [message #86454] |
Mon, 10 May 2004 09:53 |
KIRBY098
Messages: 1546
Registered: February 2003
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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| Deathgod |
Go look at our site. Just about anything can shoot down aircraft effectively.
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With the possible exception of anyone in the CW clan.
Deleted
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| Unit Balance [message #86496] |
Mon, 10 May 2004 12:40 |
KIRBY098
Messages: 1546
Registered: February 2003
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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| Javaxcx |
| KIRBY098 |
| Deathgod |
Go look at our site. Just about anything can shoot down aircraft effectively.
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With the possible exception of anyone in the CW clan.
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Well, if you like to sit and sp33k w1gga while your base is being anally raped by the lowliest players, you'd fit right in with CW anyway.
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Applicants must also be able to lie profusely about how they 0wn j00, and buying tanks for the other team is mandatory.
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