Home » General Discussions » Heated Discussions and Debates » hmmm, i wonder why russia didn't want us attacking iraq
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| hmmm, i wonder why russia didn't want us attacking iraq [message #9234] |
Mon, 24 March 2003 03:14   |
spotelmo
Messages: 273
Registered: February 2003
Location: nebraska
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| Commando no. 448 |
We all should know Russia is the type that sells it hardware wherever they please. Wonder why there are millions of AKs worldwide? I say they are a grown up nation in charge of its own dealings. You are just angry because you have to fight Iraq. The US would have been giving it mostly the blind eye if there was no war. And the Iraqis have the right to defend themselves with what they see fit.
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it is illegal under the un resolutions to sell any military equipment of any kind to iraq. so which is it? should the us be condemned for not following the un? or should we all disregard the un and do what we want?
at least the us has a un resolution(1441) to use as justification. what does russia have?
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| hmmm, i wonder why russia didn't want us attacking iraq [message #9238] |
Mon, 24 March 2003 04:45 |
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[sg]the0ne
Messages: 442
Registered: February 2003
Location: Houston, TX
Karma: 0
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Commander |
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| Commando no. 448 |
We all should know Russia is the type that sells it hardware wherever they please. Wonder why there are millions of AKs worldwide? I say they are a grown up nation in charge of its own dealings. You are just angry because you have to fight Iraq. The US would have been giving it mostly the blind eye if there was no war. And the Iraqis have the right to defend themselves with what they see fit.
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I'd surmise to call Russia "in charge of it's own dealings" would be foolish considering :
Rusia's economies extreme nose dive in 1998.
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/1998/09/crisis.russia/overview/
I stumbed upon this article from CNN in 1998. I don't normally use CNN for artciles etc but this was the 1st I ran across....Doesn't Russia also have 'unaccounted' for nuclear warheads or weapons ?
And to call a nation that would sell military hardware to a man like Saddam. Knowing their 'allies' & the UN were trying to disarm Saddam and to do so would be immoral and illegal for both parties. And THEN to come to the UN and tell the US, the PRIMARY force in the conflicts against Saddam that WE would be acting illegally & immorally ?!?!?!?!?
| by Viktor Korotayev, Reuters Newswire UK |
Russia says war in Iraq a mistake and illegal
March 17, 2003
MOSCOW, March 17 (Reuters) - Russia called for last-minute attempts to solve the Iraq crisis peacefully on Monday, saying any resort to force would be both a mistake and illegal.
Russia has aligned itself with France and Germany in calling for further U.N. arms inspections to ensure that Iraq is free of what the United States says are illegal weapons. Like France, a fellow permanent member of the U.N. Security Council, it has threatened to veto any new resolution endorsing military action.
President Vladimir Putin, speaking before the United States and Britain said they would no longer seek a vote for a new resolution endorsing force, said any approach other than peaceful disarmament would be a mistake."
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And to top it all off much like some anti-war types they can't get the facts straight. Even a small child could tell you that it is the U.N. who has passed a total of *54 resolutions concerning Iraq since 1991 NOT the United States...:rolleyes:
* http://www.caabu.org/press/documents/iraq-documents.html
Lets look at recent Russia & Iraqi business deals...
11-26-2001
| Pravada.ru News |
http://english.pravda.ru/world/2001/11/26/21985.html
RUSSIA, IRAQ WEIGH PETROCHEMICAL CONTRACTS
Russia and Iraq are considering contract drafts on cooperation in the petrochemical industry, projected to be worth some $5 billion, Iraqi Deputy Industry and Minerals Minister Ahmed Rashid announced in remarks to an international roundtable in Moscow, entitled Russia-Iraq Economic Cooperation.
The implementation of the projects in question appears to hinge on an end to economic sanctions against Iraq. "If the blockade is lifted, the projects Russian companies are interested in would be estimated higher," the Iraqi official stressed.
Iraqi Deputy Oil Minister Hussein Salman al-Hadisi said the Iraqi government is willing to give priority to Russian companies in cooperation in the oil and gas sector. This preference may prove to be a lucrative chance for Russian companies to implement projects without submitting tenders first.
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8-20-2002
| Pravda.ru News |
http://english.pravda.ru/main/2002/08/20/34815.html
"10-year contract to include oil, gas, transports and communications
The Iraqi Foreign Ministry has announced that a 60bn. USD contract is to be signed in the coming weeks between Moscow and Baghdad. The aid deal will not violate UN sanctions on Iraq."
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Friday, 17 January, 2003, 17:46 GMT
| The BBC |
Russia strikes Iraq oil deal
Iraq has awarded a major oil contract to a Russian company, in what is seen as a step towards mending relations between the two countries.
Two further agreements have been initialled, promising another two Russian firms a share of Iraq's oil revenue.
Last month sharp words were exchanged between the two countries, when Baghdad cancelled a $3.7bn contract with Russia's largest oil company Lukoil.
The new oil contracts will boost relations between Iraq and Russia at a time when Baghdad is desperate for allies on the UN security council.
Oilmen caught in geopolitics
Moscow has consistently opposed the threat of American military action against Iraq - and has argued that Iraq is co-operating with UN weapons inspectors.
But relations between Moscow and Baghdad were dented in December, when Iraq abruptly cancelled the Lukoil contract.
The official reason given by the Iraqis was that Lukoil had failed to start development work - something that is forbidden by UN sanctions.
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LOL @ the text in ^^bold^^. Someone's telling jokes on the international level again. Like Russia or Iraq gives a shit about UN sanctions when they(Iraq) are selling UN Relief aid units on the black market. So what about Russia now ? Who was it that had a large economic intrest in this war again ? Perhaps you dont get the point. The UN has deemed post Iraq getting their asses spanked there were certain terms that had to be me. This is not USA laws vs Saddam Hussein. This is Saddam Hussein vs Himself. He has had TWELVE YEARS to make his choices and this is the path he has molded. I'd say he should be thanking his lucky stars this hadn't come a lot sooner considering the situation.
You were saying ?
The One
ps. Disarmament isn't impossible for everyone, Africa seems to of gotten some praise...
http://quickstart.clari.net/qs_se/webnews/wed/bt/Qsafrica-iraq-un-nuclear.RZG-_DJR.html
Here's a little info about the history of France and Iraq...
France and Iraq: 'This Is an Odd Couple Relationship'
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,81079,00.html
yahoo : chapstic25
aim : lamant281
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| hmmm, i wonder why russia didn't want us attacking iraq [message #9376] |
Mon, 24 March 2003 18:22 |
Ren Sizzlefab
Messages: 77
Registered: March 2003
Location: Australia
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You do realise the Russian Government doesn't produce or sell weapons, don't you? These were Russian Firms selling the weapons. I agree that the Government should have done more to try and stop it, but without more information on how the Firms were set up, it's hard to say how difficult it would be to have done this.
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| hmmm, i wonder why russia didn't want us attacking iraq [message #9379] |
Mon, 24 March 2003 18:38 |
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[sg]the0ne
Messages: 442
Registered: February 2003
Location: Houston, TX
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| Ren Sizzlefab |
You do realise the Russian Government doesn't produce or sell weapons, don't you? These were Russian Firms selling the weapons. I agree that the Government should have done more to try and stop it, but without more information on how the Firms were set up, it's hard to say how difficult it would be to have done this.
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The selling of illegal weapons is originating from inside territory the Russian govt has sovereign control of. Much like America, Iraq, Britian Russia has information services (quiv. to CIA, NSA FBI). So your proposing that Russian Firms are selling these weapons, transporting these weapons [etc] and the Russian Information services/Govt have no idea ?
PS. You may want to double check on that "You do realise the Russian Government doesn't produce or sell weapons, don't you?" statement. Although the Russian govt may not have actual conscripts making AK's I'm sure they play an important role in the facilitation or initiation of the creation/production of weapons.
yahoo : chapstic25
aim : lamant281
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| hmmm, i wonder why russia didn't want us attacking iraq [message #9390] |
Mon, 24 March 2003 20:58 |
Ren Sizzlefab
Messages: 77
Registered: March 2003
Location: Australia
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That's why I said without knowing how the firms were set up, it would be hard to say. Are they Russian owned firms with production located elsewhere? Are they foreign owned firms operating in Russia? There have been no details supplied any of this. And even if the Government did know, depending on the setup of the company, it would limit the actions available.
And yes, I'm sure the Government does have a lot to do with the creation of weapons and the commissioning of some of them, but that doesn't mean that they have control of the manufacturer of the weapons, or control over who they're sold to.
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| hmmm, i wonder why russia didn't want us attacking iraq [message #9393] |
Mon, 24 March 2003 21:22 |
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K9Trooper
Messages: 821
Registered: February 2003
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| Ren Sizzlefab |
That's why I said without knowing how the firms were set up, it would be hard to say. Are they Russian owned firms with production located elsewhere? Are they foreign owned firms operating in Russia? There have been no details supplied any of this. And even if the Government did know, depending on the setup of the company, it would limit the actions available.
And yes, I'm sure the Government does have a lot to do with the creation of weapons and the commissioning of some of them, but that doesn't mean that they have control of the manufacturer of the weapons, or control over who they're sold to.
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Umm the governments do have control over what is sold. Otherwise Iraq would have Tu. Bear Bombers. Or other countries other than the US would have F-117 Stealth Fighter/Bombers. The Gov. controls what kinds of weapons are sold. They would not want weapon manufactures selling them to the enemy. The Russian Gov. knew about it. The weapons are shielded under contracts and agreements written by the govt.
All companies that manufacture military grade weapons are required to submit sales documents to the Gov. This way the governments can track them, and make sure they are not headed to the enemy. At least that is how it works here. I can't imagine Russia being that irresponsible with it's weapons.
So again, this is a prime example of France, Germany and Russia trying to indirectly attack the US.
R.I.P. TreyD. You will be missed, but not forgotten.
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| hmmm, i wonder why russia didn't want us attacking iraq [message #9406] |
Mon, 24 March 2003 23:16 |
Ren Sizzlefab
Messages: 77
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Location: Australia
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I find it easy to imagine that companies, especially in Russia, do not follow the regulations (if they exist there) and submit information to the Government. A lot of companies tend to do whatever they feel like and try and keep it under wraps (Enron, Arthur Andersen etc.), so why not military manufacturers? Knowing the way companies and organisations operate today, I could readily believe that they would try to get away with anything illegal or unethical if it meant profits, including the illegal sale of weapons. Again, it all depends on the structure of the companies selling the weapons as to how much the Government knew. I personally can't say I fully trust what any Government, Company or Media Outlet says about anything nowadays, so it is possible that the Russian Government knew and condoned the sales, and it's just as possible that they had no idea what the hell was going on in their own Country. Politicians seem to be good at seeing what they want to see and missing reality completely.
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| hmmm, i wonder why russia didn't want us attacking iraq [message #9410] |
Mon, 24 March 2003 23:32 |
spotelmo
Messages: 273
Registered: February 2003
Location: nebraska
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russia keeps just as tight of controls on weapons manufacturers as the us does. sure sometimes companies export things they shouldn't(boeing to china for example) but when that happens it is the responsibility of the government to take care of it.
what is most likely happening is the russian inteligence forces are behind the sales and either the political side doesn'tknow or turns a blind eye to it.
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| hmmm, i wonder why russia didn't want us attacking iraq [message #9492] |
Tue, 25 March 2003 11:06 |
KIRBY098
Messages: 1546
Registered: February 2003
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General (1 Star) |
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| Ren Sizzlefab |
I find it easy to imagine that companies, especially in Russia, do not follow the regulations (if they exist there) and submit information to the Government. A lot of companies tend to do whatever they feel like and try and keep it under wraps (Enron, Arthur Andersen etc.), so why not military manufacturers? Knowing the way companies and organisations operate today, I could readily believe that they would try to get away with anything illegal or unethical if it meant profits, including the illegal sale of weapons. Again, it all depends on the structure of the companies selling the weapons as to how much the Government knew. I personally can't say I fully trust what any Government, Company or Media Outlet says about anything nowadays, so it is possible that the Russian Government knew and condoned the sales, and it's just as possible that they had no idea what the hell was going on in their own Country. Politicians seem to be good at seeing what they want to see and missing reality completely.
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That's a stretch, and you know it. Ever been to Russia? Ever tried to do something there without information services not knowing about it? The KGB still exists, it's just changed it's name to FSB.
Deleted
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| hmmm, i wonder why russia didn't want us attacking iraq [message #9567] |
Tue, 25 March 2003 19:31 |
Ren Sizzlefab
Messages: 77
Registered: March 2003
Location: Australia
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I don't see how it's a stretch. I find it impossible to believe that anyone could know everything about what's going on everywhere in a country, especially one as large as Russia. And I'm still to see any information about the Russian companies supplying the weapons, it's quite plausible that their operations are set up in one of the former Russian states, and not Russia itself. As I said, I'm not saying that the Russian government didn't know about it, I'm just saying it's possible they didn't. And as spotelmo has said, it's also possible that Russian intelligence was operating independently from the Government.
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| hmmm, i wonder why russia didn't want us attacking iraq [message #15291] |
Fri, 18 April 2003 00:59 |
spotelmo
Messages: 273
Registered: February 2003
Location: nebraska
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not sure what the point of that article is. it is a known fact that the us along with other countries helped supply iraq against iran.
none of this was illegal.
the supplying of iraq with military supplies since 1991 is illegal.
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