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| Here is another thing that really pisses me off. [message #88339] |
Tue, 18 May 2004 07:59  |
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K9Trooper
Messages: 821
Registered: February 2003
Karma: 0
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Colonel |
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This so-called 9-11 Commission now ripping on the rescue efforts of my brothers and sisters in NY.
1. None of these people are trained in EMS, firefighting or law enforcment. So what right do they have to say things should have gone smoother.
2. None of them have ever been in the center of a real disaster as it is going on. They always show up at a disaster site when it has been deemed safe for them to enter.
3. None of them have ever been in a burning building trying to prevent chaos.
4. None of them have ever handled any kind of communication equipment used on the fire ground.
5. None of them have ever been trained in Incident Command or Fireground Safety.
6. None of them have ever been in command of a major structure fire and having to keep tabs on your crew.
7. They have no idea how difficult it is to control a high rise fire and maintain order with the public and the occupants of said building.
None of these things are easy and a lot of steps can easily get missed or even bypassed. The massive loss of life there could not have been reduced as easily as the 9-11 Commission seems to think. I have done all 7 and I can tell you hind sight is always 20/20. You learn from what we have done, you don't point fingures. This ruling is going to open a door to thousands of "Wrongful Death" suits that should not be filed.
Never and I mean NEVER did anyone ever dream that a scenario like 9-11 could or would happen. Never did we train or plan for such a disaster. And when I say we, I am not just saying the EMS and law enforcment. I am throwing the US Government and the US public in to this mix. If these people on the 9-11 commission think their ideas are so much better, then why didn't they offer to help or try and prevent it from happening at all? This whole pannel and review board is a joke and all it is being used for is to throw the blame on someone elses shoulders.
If you have a scanner I suggest you tune it in to the frequency of the bussiest fire department near you and listen once or if you live in an area that has a volunteer fire department, join it and find out how hard our job is.
Those idiots in congress have no idea what they are talking about or doing.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5004042/
R.I.P. TreyD. You will be missed, but not forgotten.
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| Here is another thing that really pisses me off. [message #88357] |
Tue, 18 May 2004 10:42  |
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Crimson
Messages: 7427
Registered: February 2003
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Karma: 0
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General (5 Stars)
ADMINISTRATOR |
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My mom and sister are volunteer EMTs who serve on both the ambulance corps and the fire department in their small town in upstate New York, so I know how that job is. (In fact, my sister and several of her coworkers went and helped dig for survivors the night of 9/11, but were sent home after about 8 hours when there were little survivors to be found) Considering how many people could have died in the towers, I always thought the firemen and rescuers did an amazing job to prevent so many more lives from being lost.
I'm the bawss.
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| Here is another thing that really pisses me off. [message #88384] |
Tue, 18 May 2004 12:16 |
JadenStriker
Messages: 57
Registered: April 2004
Karma: 0
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You are sertonlly right about the finger pointing being crap, and that your job is much harder then congress understands. The jet being rammed into the towers was quite unexpected too. Overall a very good job was preformed in the rescue effort, but at the same time this should show us we have more to learn, more things to secure, and more measures to take in order to keep our country safe. You shouldn't be blamed for any thing, that is for serton, but now that the problems are known, getting new training and updating equipment is sound. Wrongful death lawsuits that come up will be total bullshit. I wonder home many of the people that will likely proticipate in these suits will be greedy libariels looking to fill their pockets and get revange rather then figure out the actual problem and solve it, or make measures to prevent it. Everyone knows the best way to stop a problem is to goto its source, and the source of the 9-11 attacks are terroist and their views. To stop another attack we have to stop the terrorist where they stand, and the libarels would have you turn a blind eye to that because they want to talk about money problems. Granted it is an importain issue, but addressing it to the point that it would leave us open to attack again is BS. Fix the money issues that come up, but don't let yourself get bogged down by it that you can't see another assult coming our way and get belted again like we did in 9-11, and don't file BS wrongful death suits becaause that will only hurt the ability to see an attack and prevent or counter it.
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| Here is another thing that really pisses me off. [message #88401] |
Tue, 18 May 2004 12:38 |
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SuperFlyingEngi
Messages: 1756
Registered: November 2003
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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K9, these congressmen/women are not saying how bad NY firefighters are, but looking at all the aspects of 9/11 and looking at everything and how to improve on it. I bet they all have a deep respect for firefighters and the good work you all do, and want to help make that work even better. From what I gathered from that article, it seems that there were some communication failures with teams communicating between each other. So this committee wants to see how to make it better. I can't quite see the evil inherent in that, or is the MSNBC article not telling?
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -- Theodore Roosevelt (1918)
"The danger to political dissent is acute where the Government attempts to act under so vague a concept as the power to protect "domestic security." Given the difficulty of defining the domestic security interest, the danger of abuse in acting to protect that interest becomes apparent. --U.S. Supreme Court decision (407 U.S. 297 (1972)
The Liberal Media At Work
An objective look at media partisanship
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| Here is another thing that really pisses me off. [message #88404] |
Tue, 18 May 2004 12:43 |
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NukeIt15
Messages: 987
Registered: February 2003
Location: Out to lunch
Karma: 0
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Colonel |
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It's sad that when everyone needs a scapegoat, the people with power would shrug the blame off on those who prevented that day from becoming an even worse tragedy. How many lives did the members of this comission save that day? None? Just checking. Eveyone who participated in that rescue effort deserves the highest honors.
Hell, some of the people in those towers were on the floors above where the planes hit- places where no one could have possibly reached, not even by helicopter(the fire would have played hell with the surrounding air, making the use of a helicopter not only suicidal, but a risk to other buildings). This is in the same category as suing doctors for not saving people with terminal illnesses. Every member of that comission should be ashamed of themselves.
"Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. Horrid mischief would ensue were (the law-abiding) deprived of the use of them." - Thomas Paine
Remember, kids: illiteracy is cool. If you took the time to read this, you are clearly a loser who will never get laid. You've been warned.
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| Here is another thing that really pisses me off. [message #88408] |
Tue, 18 May 2004 12:50 |
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SuperFlyingEngi
Messages: 1756
Registered: November 2003
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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Do you know what the commision actualy said about this, or are you just listening to the other people on this thread wail on the commision? It's their job to identify everything that didn't run perfectly smoothly. Come to think of it, have you seen ANY commision hearings on TV?
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -- Theodore Roosevelt (1918)
"The danger to political dissent is acute where the Government attempts to act under so vague a concept as the power to protect "domestic security." Given the difficulty of defining the domestic security interest, the danger of abuse in acting to protect that interest becomes apparent. --U.S. Supreme Court decision (407 U.S. 297 (1972)
The Liberal Media At Work
An objective look at media partisanship
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| Here is another thing that really pisses me off. [message #88427] |
Tue, 18 May 2004 13:37 |
JadenStriker
Messages: 57
Registered: April 2004
Karma: 0
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Thats the media overstating and over reacting to a small instance. In an intense sercomstance like that a small error like that is likely to happen, HARDLY any thing to condem a person for, but the media tends to have a slant on things so they make to much of a bit deal out of it. The congress likely shouldn't even spend much time on it as it is trivial. I(f they are going to complain about the communication gaps and co-ordination then they just need to make a big network that interlinking the fire and police department communication systems, and make a committy to help enhance the co-orodenation and communitactions. Thats all that needs to be done. The media has a point the finger to get news complexe because of that saying, "Good news is bad news, and bad news is good news" which means any thing that is out of the ordenary or is a desastor is news to report.
I would be more worried about how the media slants things tainting the truth with a stretch and less worried about congress.
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| Here is another thing that really pisses me off. [message #88612] |
Wed, 19 May 2004 07:24 |
JadenStriker
Messages: 57
Registered: April 2004
Karma: 0
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Yeah. What is the commission thinking? They shouldn't be pointing fingers it waste money, they should be focusing on getting training, new equipment, and improving the communications structure not witch hunting. Though still becareful aobut what you get from the news, they still taint the truth.
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| Here is another thing that really pisses me off. [message #88804] |
Wed, 19 May 2004 16:47 |
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SuperFlyingEngi
Messages: 1756
Registered: November 2003
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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The_Chaotic_One:
Just food for thought:
They say you can't go broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public.
Saying the 9/11 commision is retarded next to the American public's intellectual capacity proves you really don't have much of an idea of whatt you are talking about.
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -- Theodore Roosevelt (1918)
"The danger to political dissent is acute where the Government attempts to act under so vague a concept as the power to protect "domestic security." Given the difficulty of defining the domestic security interest, the danger of abuse in acting to protect that interest becomes apparent. --U.S. Supreme Court decision (407 U.S. 297 (1972)
The Liberal Media At Work
An objective look at media partisanship
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| Here is another thing that really pisses me off. [message #89102] |
Thu, 20 May 2004 18:16 |
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DBB
Messages: 364
Registered: March 2003
Karma: 0
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Commander |
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K9, I agree with you so bad it hurts. Nearly vomitted myself when I saw that on the news. How dare they.......bastards.
This one goes out to all the NYFD and NYPD that lost their BRAVE AND COURAGIOUS LIVES DOING THE RIGHT THING on that horrific day. :thumbsup:
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| Here is another thing that really pisses me off. [message #92027] |
Wed, 02 June 2004 21:01 |
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PointlessAmbler
Messages: 318
Registered: February 2004
Karma: 0
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Seriously, what the fuck did the 9/11 commission expect? The firefighters to somehow go up into the twin towers while they were burning, put out the 1500+ degree fire, and save everyone, and be prepared for a plane to crash into a building at any time? I'm going with K9 on this one, the 9/11 commission is full of a bunch of retards that can't reason.
Red Alert: A Path Beyond Manual Writer
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| Here is another thing that really pisses me off. [message #92113] |
Thu, 03 June 2004 07:19 |
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SuperFlyingEngi
Messages: 1756
Registered: November 2003
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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| Carl |
didnt you know? the 9/11 comsstion is nothing but a joke. something just to make it look like they are doing something to prevent similar events. which, in reality, you cannot stop evens like these.
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It's not a joke, that's just what Republicans say because Bush is getting hammered by it because Bush refused to believe obvious intelligence, and his administration stonewalled Richard Clarke's terrorism plan from January to September 9th...
Also, one reason the 9/11 commission is looking in to the firefighters is because the whole first crew to arrive at the scene died because they were not coordinated, among other things. Some teams were told to stay in the burning towers before they collapsed, others were told to leave the towers but didn't... and this commision is looking in to this to find out how to save the lives of firefighters in the future.
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -- Theodore Roosevelt (1918)
"The danger to political dissent is acute where the Government attempts to act under so vague a concept as the power to protect "domestic security." Given the difficulty of defining the domestic security interest, the danger of abuse in acting to protect that interest becomes apparent. --U.S. Supreme Court decision (407 U.S. 297 (1972)
The Liberal Media At Work
An objective look at media partisanship
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| Here is another thing that really pisses me off. [message #92235] |
Thu, 03 June 2004 13:39 |
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K9Trooper
Messages: 821
Registered: February 2003
Karma: 0
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Colonel |
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| SuperFlyingEngi |
| Carl |
didnt you know? the 9/11 comsstion is nothing but a joke. something just to make it look like they are doing something to prevent similar events. which, in reality, you cannot stop evens like these.
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It's not a joke, that's just what Republicans say because Bush is getting hammered by it because Bush refused to believe obvious intelligence, and his administration stonewalled Richard Clarke's terrorism plan from January to September 9th...
Also, one reason the 9/11 commission is looking in to the firefighters is because the whole first crew to arrive at the scene died because they were not coordinated, among other things. Some teams were told to stay in the burning towers before they collapsed, others were told to leave the towers but didn't... and this commision is looking in to this to find out how to save the lives of firefighters in the future.
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My silence has been broken!
Engi you are such a fuck... Again you and the 9/11 panel have no idea what it is like to be a firefighter , cop or a paramedic. I am a FF/EMT-P and I know what it is like to be in comand of a fire scene. The 9/11 panel, you and most likely 99% of these forums will never understand or experience it. All they are doing is shifting the blame from the terrorists to the FF, cops, EMS and current administration. They want the blood of the victums on the Republicans hands and will do whatever dirty tactic to do so. It is not the commissions place to tell fire departments how they should be run.
Lesson for you all.
1. 9-1-1 is called and the dispatchers are notified of an emergency. (Now with a city that has over a million people and I would bet that 80% have cell phones imagine how flooded the few hundred 9-1-1 operators got)
2. Dispatchers set the alarm and dispatches the "1st Alarm" and possibably skips to a "3rd Alarm" automatically
3. The trucks respond to the call. By this time I believe the Chief, not even on the scene yet, has issued a "General Alarm". That is all FDNY stations and it's "Mutual Aid" partners respond. At this point in the game off shift firefighters receive a call in and have to stand-by at stations with reserve equipment.
4. First truck arives on scene. They assess the situation and decide they need to assist in the evacuation of the building and surpress what fire they can in order to get people out. There is only one way to do this. They needed to enter the buildings.
5. Chief arrives. Gets briefed from the first on scene. Chief assumes command and gets his command structure set. (You may think a fire chief runs the entire scene but you are wrong. There is a communications officer, safety officer among others). They all rely on the firefighters to "Paint a picture" of what is going on.
6. Chief is communicating with FF and others. At this point you may say there was a breakdown in communications but there are other factors that effect communications on a fire ground.
....6a. Heat will effect radio communications. Heat is a form of radiation and excessive heat will hinder radio transmissions.
....6b. Metal effects radio transmissions. People think that metal would help but in reality metal will hinder radio waves unless that metal is set up to act like an antena, and the WTC was a lot of hot metal.
....6c. Cell phones can interfere with radios. Think of it this way, even though they most likely were not on the same bandwidth as the fire radios the attenas of the fire radios still absorb the cell phone signals and can create static. Think of 20,000 people trying to use their cell phones in a small area. Lot of traffic in the air. Almost like a phone service is doing a DoS attack.
I will stop there. I am running out of time and patients. Anyhoo, they are trying to blame those that gave their lives trying to save strangers. If you really want to point fingers at anyone other than terrorists for bringing down the WTC. Point them at the owners of the buildings and the builders of them. It was ultimatly their fault for them going down. The lack of fire proofing and lack of maintianing that fire proofing allowed the fire to take the buildings down faster than anyone would have thought. I will still point my fingers at the real killers though... The terrorists.
R.I.P. TreyD. You will be missed, but not forgotten.
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| Here is another thing that really pisses me off. [message #92324] |
Thu, 03 June 2004 17:48 |
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SuperFlyingEngi
Messages: 1756
Registered: November 2003
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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| K9Trooper |
Engi you are such a fuck...
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Moving on...
| K9Trooper |
They want the blood of the victums on the Republicans hands and will do whatever dirty tactic to do so.
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Isn't half of this commission Republican? This is not a biased commission, and I believe it was appointed by the President.
So what should the 9/11 commission do when they are investigating 9/11, everything that went down, and how to make it better? Skip firefighters because none of them are firefighters? They're not trying to shift blame from the terrorists, because we can't improve the efficiency of terrorists very well... Again, pretty much the whole first crew got killed when the buildings collapsed, so let's look into it and deteremine whether we could design new radios to avoid static and such, and lets see if we should enforce tougher building inspection codes.
And now for the cheap shot...
| K9Trooper |
I am running out of time and patients.
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I didn't know you were a doctor... :rolleyes:
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -- Theodore Roosevelt (1918)
"The danger to political dissent is acute where the Government attempts to act under so vague a concept as the power to protect "domestic security." Given the difficulty of defining the domestic security interest, the danger of abuse in acting to protect that interest becomes apparent. --U.S. Supreme Court decision (407 U.S. 297 (1972)
The Liberal Media At Work
An objective look at media partisanship
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| Here is another thing that really pisses me off. [message #92596] |
Fri, 04 June 2004 18:28 |
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SuperFlyingEngi
Messages: 1756
Registered: November 2003
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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So he "0wned" me by not responding to the issues at hand besides saying what he thought of the commission, which makes sense, because Karl Rove tells them all to sit down and shut up.
And K9, do you really call the people you save patients?
| K9Trooper |
I have seen you with more spelling errors in your posts than you will ever see in mine.
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Ohmigod! There's no way he could be wrong!
Seriously though, if you're going to waste half an hour scrounging around for spelling errors, I won't do the same to you, because I have better things to be doing.
So I'll stand my ass up.
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -- Theodore Roosevelt (1918)
"The danger to political dissent is acute where the Government attempts to act under so vague a concept as the power to protect "domestic security." Given the difficulty of defining the domestic security interest, the danger of abuse in acting to protect that interest becomes apparent. --U.S. Supreme Court decision (407 U.S. 297 (1972)
The Liberal Media At Work
An objective look at media partisanship
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