| Unit Balance [message #82795] |
Fri, 23 April 2004 18:09  |
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Aircraftkiller
Messages: 8213
Registered: February 2003
Karma: 0
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General (5 Stars) |
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Figured as a member of BHS, I'd start the topic rolling. We want to do some unit balance changes. Almost certainly, we'll end up changing the "snipers" so that they're not grossly overpowered.
This way, aircraft will be usable, without being blown away five seconds after leaving their base.
My suggestions are that missile armed units (Rocket Soldier, Gunner, Recon Bike, MRLS, Mammoth Tank, Orca, Stealth Tank) track units better. This will replace the "need" of "snipers" to destroy aircraft or other light armored vehicles.
Additionally, this would also entail the use of Helicopter Pads where aircraft rearm, and only have one weapon - Orca would be armed with its TOW-2B missiles, six salvos. Apache would have 25-75 rounds of chain-gun ammunution, both would rearm back at the Helicopter Pad instead of endlessly loitering over the battlefield.
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| Unit Balance [message #82798] |
Fri, 23 April 2004 18:11  |
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Spice
Messages: 1448
Registered: November 2003
Location: Ohio
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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sounds good. No more n00bjetters  The rockets for the infantry dont need to seek.
aslo thats excellent about the aircrafts. On big maps they wont get pwned now. Wont alot of fan maps become usless. 
[Updated on: Fri, 23 April 2004 18:14] Report message to a moderator |
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| Unit Balance [message #82799] |
Fri, 23 April 2004 18:12 |
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U927
Messages: 709
Registered: February 2003
Location: Ft. Lauderdale, FL
Karma: 0
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Colonel |
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Sounds plausible. I was getting tired of continuosly getting blown out of the sky by a n00bjet rifle.
The snipers and choppers seem to be the only units that need to be revamped. The rest seem fine in my opinion.
We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence then, is not an act but a habit. - Aristotle
8-Bit Theatre. The power of evil compels you!
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| Unit Balance [message #82800] |
Fri, 23 April 2004 18:12 |
xptek_disabled
Messages: 1308
Registered: September 2003
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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Havoc/Sakura really needs to get his/her gun reduced, esp. against MRLS/Art. I'd also like to see tracking missles.
Local oper-irc.ugin.net - A Scrumfy free IRC.
Jonwil > SK
http://www.byterush.net/
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| Unit Balance [message #82801] |
Fri, 23 April 2004 18:16 |
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Crimson
Messages: 7427
Registered: February 2003
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Karma: 0
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General (5 Stars)
ADMINISTRATOR |
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Please note that ACK intended to start a discussion on what we will change if there's support for the ideas. This isn't something that will definitely happen, we are hoping you guys will brainstorm ideas for how to keep balance.
Also know that any changes we make will have to be tested. Balance is a delicate procedure and it's perfectly reasonable to expect several variations to get a balance that makes for exciting gameplay.
I'm the bawss.
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| Unit Balance [message #82802] |
Fri, 23 April 2004 18:21 |
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drunkill
Messages: 180
Registered: January 2004
Location: Melbourne, Victoria, Aus...
Karma: 0
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Recruit |
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yay, well kinda, thats good then, it will become better. but how will you inforce these changes? or will the server choose?
Promotional Artist for Red Alert: A Path Beyond
Vote for APB in the MOTY awards 2008!
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| Unit Balance [message #82803] |
Fri, 23 April 2004 18:22 |
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warranto
Messages: 2584
Registered: February 2003
Location: Alberta, Canada
Karma: 0
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General (2 Stars) |
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The aircraft should have more ammo than you prepose. Both aircraft should have enough ammunition to take out a tank. Not a Mammoth of course, but being able to take out, or almost take out, a medium tank (Nod) and a light tank (GDI) if every round hit. This would prevent the bordom factor of firing a few rounds, returning to refill, fire a few more, base becomes decimated as a group can only take out one tank at a time.
It would make them powerful, hence the need to refill, but not completely useless against armor.
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| Unit Balance [message #82807] |
Fri, 23 April 2004 18:29 |
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Crimson
Messages: 7427
Registered: February 2003
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Karma: 0
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General (5 Stars)
ADMINISTRATOR |
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If you've installed RenGuard 1.02, you were asked if you'd like BHS to automatically apply core updates as they become available. Saying Yes to this question will allow us to apply patches to your game files wherever a client-side fix is necessary to make the change.
I'm the bawss.
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| Unit Balance [message #82811] |
Fri, 23 April 2004 18:46 |
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Aircraftkiller
Messages: 8213
Registered: February 2003
Karma: 0
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General (5 Stars) |
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| warranto |
The aircraft should have more ammo than you prepose. Both aircraft should have enough ammunition to take out a tank. Not a Mammoth of course, but being able to take out, or almost take out, a medium tank (Nod) and a light tank (GDI) if every round hit. This would prevent the bordom factor of firing a few rounds, returning to refill, fire a few more, base becomes decimated as a group can only take out one tank at a time.
It would make them powerful, hence the need to refill, but not completely useless against armor.
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Aircraft are support units in C&C. Renegade is based off C&C. Aircraft are meant to do quick strikes, not destroy things easily like that.
If so, that makes everyone want to get aircraft... Then it negates the use of ground vehicles. The missiles on an Orca would damage a Medium Tank 25%, and a Light Tank 50%.
Not so much with the Apache, as it would be more effective against infantry and buildings.
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| Unit Balance [message #82833] |
Fri, 23 April 2004 19:58 |
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warranto
Messages: 2584
Registered: February 2003
Location: Alberta, Canada
Karma: 0
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General (2 Stars) |
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| Aircraftkiller |
| warranto |
The aircraft should have more ammo than you prepose. Both aircraft should have enough ammunition to take out a tank. Not a Mammoth of course, but being able to take out, or almost take out, a medium tank (Nod) and a light tank (GDI) if every round hit. This would prevent the bordom factor of firing a few rounds, returning to refill, fire a few more, base becomes decimated as a group can only take out one tank at a time.
It would make them powerful, hence the need to refill, but not completely useless against armor.
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Aircraft are support units in C&C. Renegade is based off C&C. Aircraft are meant to do quick strikes, not destroy things easily like that.
If so, that makes everyone want to get aircraft... Then it negates the use of ground vehicles. The missiles on an Orca would damage a Medium Tank 25%, and a Light Tank 50%.
Not so much with the Apache, as it would be more effective against infantry and buildings.
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True enough. Though admittedly I did aim high on purpose, simply to establish a maximum. It's simply an attempt to balance realism with the fun factor.
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| Unit Balance [message #82860] |
Fri, 23 April 2004 22:28 |
spoonyrat
Messages: 406
Registered: December 2003
Location: England
Karma: 0
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Interesting idea... but it'll only work in big games... Small games especially 1v1 will become useless on cityfly/wallsfly without the orca's machinegun... I can't help but oppose this.
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| Unit Balance [message #82903] |
Sat, 24 April 2004 03:10 |
cokemaster
Messages: 144
Registered: April 2003
Karma: 0
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| spoonyrat |
Interesting idea... but it'll only work in big games... Small games especially 1v1 will become useless on cityfly/wallsfly without the orca's machinegun... I can't help but oppose this.
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This explains it...
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Aircraft are support units in C&C. Renegade is based off C&C. Aircraft are meant to do quick strikes, not destroy things easily like that.
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Personally I say do it, snipers are too powerful at the moment. I suggest toning them down so that they only effectively hurt men but not get mass points off tanks. Their firerate is quiet high as well....
In order to 'balance' it - rockets should track more effectively (as you said on the first post).
But If snipers aren't able to be toned down, then the artirelly and the MRLS should be less open to sniper fire.
Remember, Friends don't let friends play Reborn!
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| Unit Balance [message #82908] |
Sat, 24 April 2004 03:42 |
spoonyrat
Messages: 406
Registered: December 2003
Location: England
Karma: 0
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Commander |
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I think giving stuff like rocket soldiers and the MRLS better anti-air ability is a great idea, but messing around with the air unit's weapon systems and sniper's anti-air damage will change Renegade for the worse.
One thing I would definitely support is if snipers didn't get points from attacking stuff they don't damage i.e. tanks. I can't help but cringe to see 70% of a team in a public buy ramjets just to shoot enemy tanks.
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| Unit Balance [message #82950] |
Sat, 24 April 2004 06:59 |
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I think we should cut back on snipers and instead make rockets (for example, the Rocket Launcher and the MRLS and others, also the recon bike if its put back in) the main anti-aircraft weapons.
Snipers should be for taking out people and should do lots of damage (and get lots of points for attacking) people. They should do almost no damage (and get almost no points for attacking) vechicles and buildings.
Every unit should have a speciality.
For example, snipers are great for taking out infantry.
Engineers are great for repariing shit and stopping beacons.
Rocket Launchers are great for taking out armoured stuff (including aircraft)
Machine guns are good at taking out lightly armoured stuff
Tanks are great at taking out medium armoured stuff
etc
Jonathan Wilson aka Jonwil
Creator and Lead Coder of the Custom scripts.dll
Renegade Engine Guru
Creator and Lead Coder of TT.DLL
Official member of Tiberian Technologies
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| Unit Balance [message #82997] |
Sat, 24 April 2004 11:42 |
flyingfox
Messages: 1612
Registered: February 2003
Location: scotland, uk
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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I was thinking the same thing as spoony at the start of this topic. In the best interests of this game, yes, by all means tone down the amount of damage ramjet rifles do to aircraft. But the weapon arms on the aircraft should not be changed. If we armed all orcas and apaches with small arms made for a "quick attack and back", that wouldn't work in smaller games. This would be a good idea, if we were playing a 50 v 50 game. Which will not happen. Games like tiberian sun and red alert enabled you to built tons and tons of units. In Renegade, lets say the average game is going to be a 10 v 10.
Now, if we keep the weapon arms on the aircraft the same, I strongly think the balance would come in the fact that rocket soldier officers / MRLS / stealth tanks / mammoth tusk missiles etc done "a lot" of damage to aircraft. How about 1 rocket does the same amount of damage as a ramjet would have? Which is, 2 squares of damage per rocket hit. This would keep the pilots cautions (especially of MRLS -- 2 or 3 of the 6 rocket barriage always homes in at the moment) but it would also prevent the "instant hit" crap that comes from ramjets.
Also, if possible, keep the chance of a missile homing in at 50%, otherwise travelling straight ahead. This would prevent you happening upon an aircraft and taking it out too quickly with your 6 missile barrage.
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| Re: Unit Balance [message #83013] |
Sat, 24 April 2004 15:16 |
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Majiin Vegeta
Messages: 2186
Registered: February 2003
Location: London
Karma: 0
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General (2 Stars) |
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| Aircraftkiller |
Figured as a member of BHS, I'd start the topic rolling. We want to do some unit balance changes. Almost certainly, we'll end up changing the "snipers" so that they're not grossly overpowered.
This way, aircraft will be usable, without being blown away five seconds after leaving their base.
My suggestions are that missile armed units (Rocket Soldier, Gunner, Recon Bike, MRLS, Mammoth Tank, Orca, Stealth Tank) track units better. This will replace the "need" of "snipers" to destroy aircraft or other light armored vehicles.
Additionally, this would also entail the use of Helicopter Pads where aircraft rearm, and only have one weapon - Orca would be armed with its TOW-2B missiles, six salvos. Apache would have 25-75 rounds of chain-gun ammunution, both would rearm back at the Helicopter Pad instead of endlessly loitering over the battlefield.
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i like the first part but the second part about rearming back at the pad i dont like.. tanks dont need to rearm so why should the orca / apache
just give them decent reload times
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