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| Why do you think? [message #61658] |
Mon, 12 January 2004 13:45   |
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Javaxcx
Messages: 1943
Registered: February 2003
Location: Canada, eh?
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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| NukeIt15 |
I didn't make myself clear enough I guess...what I mean to say was that I don't know what will happen when I die, yet am sure SOMETHING will(as in, I believe in an afterlife, but I don't know and don't want to know what it might be like). That has nothing to do with a belief or disbelief in god.
I plainly do not believe that any form of deity is possible, because everything has to be created by something else. 
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I tried to explain this, but I guess I didn't do a good job, so I'll try again.
As far as logic goes, there must always be a creation must always have a creator, whether it is sentient or not is not relivant AT THIS TIME, I'll explain why it is relavant later.
Now, I know what you may say, using an example of course: "Well, what about the creation of CO2 from fire? Fire isn't sentient, but it creates CO2!"
That's right, fire isn't sentient, but the process of oxidizing carbon isn't creation. It's just a natural process which involves the rearrangments of atoms. Arguably, you could say that there is no such thing as "creation" in this universe (yes, you can even say that the birth of new life is NOT creation, merely because a human is the byproduct of organic matter formed from atoms which have always been here).
It's at this point where sentience becomes relivant. This is our proof that a higher being might exist, but of course may follow your theory that the creators are the product of a creation. However, in every case, in order for a creation to be created, the creator must be superior than the creation. If that made any sense. In a nutshell, if there is a God, He would have had to be not bound by logic and physics as we know them. But He must've been sentient, because if He wasn't, then there could have been no creation.
Creation does not logically "happen" in this universe (as far as we know). And that theory dates back to those scientific laws about energy and matter in that energy or matter cannot be created or destoryed, only manipulated.
However, since we can't PROVE that theory with evidence dating back to the beginning of the universe, we can't make that assumption that creation never happened... at least logically.
I know that all sounds all over the place, but it's a difficult concept to get across to the next person. I think Warranto understood it we were discussing it while ago, maybe he can give an explanetion.
Sniper Extraordinaire
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| Why do you think? [message #61667] |
Mon, 12 January 2004 14:11 |
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NukeIt15
Messages: 987
Registered: February 2003
Location: Out to lunch
Karma: 0
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Colonel |
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It's more around the "Big Bang" where I start to think about something creating something else. A scientific experiment or cosmic coincidence, if you will, somebody or something messing with atoms and molecules at a level we aren't currently capable of understanding, and producing the results we see today. Not as in "Hey, I feel like creating a universe and a bunch of sentient life forms, I'm gonna go play creator."
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Creation does not logically "happen" in this universe (as far as we know). And that theory dates back to those scientific laws about energy and matter in that energy or matter cannot be created or destoryed, only manipulated.
However, since we can't PROVE that theory with evidence dating back to the beginning of the universe, we can't make that assumption that creation never happened... at least logically.
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Actually, it doesn't sound all over the place, it makes perfect sense. Being the person that I am, I don't believe in an absolute beginning or an absolute end- something can't come from nothing, nor can nothing come from something. Whatever is here has always been here in one form or another, and will always be here in one form or another. Now perhaps that form is one which we haven't discovered yet- perhaps this is the higher power we've been debating- but even that had to have come from the same general pool of...well, matter, energy, everything- I'll just call it "stuff".
"Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. Horrid mischief would ensue were (the law-abiding) deprived of the use of them." - Thomas Paine
Remember, kids: illiteracy is cool. If you took the time to read this, you are clearly a loser who will never get laid. You've been warned.
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| Why do you think? [message #61692] |
Mon, 12 January 2004 16:30 |
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NukeIt15
Messages: 987
Registered: February 2003
Location: Out to lunch
Karma: 0
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Colonel |
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Well...I don't think there was ever a point where nothing existed. To have any sort of being or the will for such a being to come into existence, something must be there preceding it for it to be formed out of, and something had to perform the actual formation. You can't create yourself(creation of oneself is a contradiction, since you can't create anything if you don't exist, much less yourself); someone or something else must do it for you. That goes for anything and everything, so "nothingness"(the absence of ANY forms of existence, matter or energy or anything else) can't exist. No, space is not an example of nothingness, as it is not a true vacuum- there is matter and energy, however widely spread, no matter where you go in the universe.
IMHO, naturally.
"Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. Horrid mischief would ensue were (the law-abiding) deprived of the use of them." - Thomas Paine
Remember, kids: illiteracy is cool. If you took the time to read this, you are clearly a loser who will never get laid. You've been warned.
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| Why do you think? [message #61830] |
Tue, 13 January 2004 15:04 |
setstyle
Messages: 101
Registered: July 2003
Karma: 0
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Yes, God is a figment of the human imagination.
Javaxcx: Your definition of an "atheist" includes the word disbelieves. I did not say that all atheists stray away from directly saying there is no God, but merely that there is indeed a difference to be noted.
Here's a fun website to read:
http://religionisbadforyou.homestead.com/Home.html
Further development of the previous post: "Religion is the adult version of Santa Claus."
your = possessive adjective
you're = you + are
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| Why do you think? [message #61870] |
Tue, 13 January 2004 19:57 |
setstyle
Messages: 101
Registered: July 2003
Karma: 0
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| da_shiz |
As I've said before: Not ONE author of the Bible has written something that conflicts with another author's. Most authors didn't even know each other and yet no contradictions in their writings.
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This statement is false, the source of disproof being the New Testament.
(Edit below)
| warranto |
saying that Religion is the Adults version of Santa Clause is actually bennificial to the arguement that God exist. Santa Clase, or as he was perviously known as "St. Nicholas" was a real person. No longer living, true. But still still a real person.
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Jesus was likely a real person as well. Santa Claus doesn't truly fly to everyone's house on Christmas Eve, and Jesus probably didn't travel about performing similiar miracles in his lifetime.
your = possessive adjective
you're = you + are
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| Why do you think? [message #62031] |
Thu, 15 January 2004 06:59 |
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Renx
Messages: 2321
Registered: April 2003
Location: Canada
Karma: 0
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General (2 Stars)
Category Moderator |
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oh yea, well what if aliens created us? explain that one.
Basicly, no matter what anyone says here, in this thread, will change anyones opinions about whether god is real, or if we were created by a giant explosion, ect...
People are going to think what they want to think, and no one, not even the big man himself, can change that.
Where is that "argueing on the internet" picture when you need it....
~Canucck
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| Why do you think? [message #62234] |
Fri, 16 January 2004 13:27 |
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NukeIt15
Messages: 987
Registered: February 2003
Location: Out to lunch
Karma: 0
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Colonel |
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A supreme being, by necessity, would need to create itself. It would have to come out of nothingness, with nothing existing before it, then perform another similarly impossible act by bringing everything else into existence from nothingness (or, in a possible alternative, destroy itself to create everything else, which most religions do not support). By any known laws of Physics, it is impossible to create ANYTHING out of nothing, let alone creating yourself, which you absolutely cannot do unless you exist BEFORE your own creation. Which is impossible.
There is no beginning; there is no end. There is no absolute creator; there is only what has always existed, and always will, in one form or another.
"Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. Horrid mischief would ensue were (the law-abiding) deprived of the use of them." - Thomas Paine
Remember, kids: illiteracy is cool. If you took the time to read this, you are clearly a loser who will never get laid. You've been warned.
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| Why do you think? [message #62298] |
Fri, 16 January 2004 18:07 |
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NukeIt15
Messages: 987
Registered: February 2003
Location: Out to lunch
Karma: 0
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Colonel |
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*sigh*
So did everything just start out of nowhere with the big bang? Something had to start that. There had to be matter and energy to fuel it, a quantity exactly equal to that in the universe as we know it. Something catalyzed that reaction; we don't know what yet. However, whatever started the big bang must also have been created by something else, and so on and so forth.
The matter and energy we see has been there, always. In one form or another. One must not assume that the universe is all existence has ever been- it was created when something else was destroyed, as everything must be.
"Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. Horrid mischief would ensue were (the law-abiding) deprived of the use of them." - Thomas Paine
Remember, kids: illiteracy is cool. If you took the time to read this, you are clearly a loser who will never get laid. You've been warned.
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| Why do you think? [message #62324] |
Fri, 16 January 2004 22:56 |
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SomeRhino
Messages: 260
Registered: February 2003
Karma: 0
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Recruit |
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You can't shrug off life by saying we were created by aliens, because the next logical question would be, "Where did the aliens come from?"
The universe could not always have just been there. As you probably know, the universe is slowly running down on energy, as is required by the laws of thermodynamics. If the universe had existed forever, then all the energy in the universe would be dispersed perfectly, all radioactive atoms would have by now decayed, there would be no part warmer than any other part. The "heat death" of the universe, if you will. Obviously, the universe is not like that, so it must have come from somewhere.
Those people who start with a naturalistic axiom therefore have proposed what is now called the "big bang" theory to explain how matter got into its current state. However, this theory is in severe trouble, and has been for some time. For instance, if the entire mass of the universe was concentrated at a single point, then it would form a black hole. Even if this concentration of mass somehow managed to build up enough energy to explode, it wouldn't be able to go far because nothing- not even light itself can escape the event horizon of a black hole. Some theories have been proposed to get around this, probably the most popular one is that the universe actually has more than three space dimensions! I once read that some say it would require 12 dimensions. Yet there is not the slightest proof for them.
Some other problems for the theory are that there isn't nearly enough antimatter in the universe to collapse back onto itself (we're not even sure if antimatter exists, it's theorized to be contained in galactic halos.) This would be required for an oscillating universe, again another reason the universe could not have existed forever.
Now, some of you have been saying that if there was a Creator, then He would have had to create Himself. This is absurd, because something can't create itself if it does not yet exist. The solution is that the Creator has always been there. God is not bound by the physical laws He has set over the universe, so when God created the matter, He created time itself. It's interesting to note that Einstein's Theory of General Relativity shows that time is linked to matter, and that time itself had a beginning. God is not bound by the limit of time, and the Bible has several passages explaining that He exists outside of time.
Is there direct proof of a Creator? No.
Is there direct proof of the universe being self-existing? No.
It is merely a question of what theory has the most solid foundation, where you want to put your faith.
I've made my choice.
Dri Reign
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| Why do you think? [message #62358] |
Sat, 17 January 2004 08:38 |
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Javaxcx
Messages: 1943
Registered: February 2003
Location: Canada, eh?
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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| SomeRhino |
The universe could not always have just been there. As you probably know, the universe is slowly running down on energy, as is required by the laws of thermodynamics. If the universe had existed forever, then all the energy in the universe would be dispersed perfectly, all radioactive atoms would have by now decayed, there would be no part warmer than any other part. The "heat death" of the universe, if you will. Obviously, the universe is not like that, so it must have come from somewhere.
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With that in mind, I'd just like to add: If this this true, then the universe will not ever recollapse on itself, but will infact continue to stretch out for as far as eternity goes until it reaches a point of absolute 0 degrees. The universe is doomed to a frozen death.
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Those people who start with a naturalistic axiom therefore have proposed what is now called the "big bang" theory to explain how matter got into its current state. However, this theory is in severe trouble, and has been for some time. For instance, if the entire mass of the universe was concentrated at a single point, then it would form a black hole.
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Now, I'm not going to go into theoretical physics, because they hold no grounds in a debate of logistics, but it seems to be that if the universe has been able to explode (from what we BELIEVE) from a single point, and what you've said is true, the universe would have been forced to "explode" at a point very close to that where light cannot escape the event horizon of a black hole. Still, that would mean alot of matter (from where we still don't know where it came from) would have to be packaged quite far away from itself in order NOT to form black holes. So we're at a logical impasse. I would bet that our conseptions of black holes and the dynamics of matter aren't exactly right... yet.
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Now, some of you have been saying that if there was a Creator, then He would have had to create Himself. This is absurd, because something can't create itself if it does not yet exist. The solution is that the Creator has always been there. God is not bound by the physical laws He has set over the universe, so when God created the matter, He created time itself. It's interesting to note that Einstein's Theory of General Relativity shows that time is linked to matter, and that time itself had a beginning. God is not bound by the limit of time, and the Bible has several passages explaining that He exists outside of time.
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THANK you. You've managed to explain what I couldn't.
Sniper Extraordinaire
Read the FUD Rules before you come in and make an ass of yourself.
All your base are belong to us.
You have no chance to survive make your time.
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