Home » General Discussions » Heated Discussions and Debates » Questions I would like to pose to athiests
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| Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests [message #462917 is a reply to message #442568] |
Mon, 27 February 2012 03:29   |
eatcow
Messages: 22
Registered: April 2011
Karma: 0
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Howdy reborn. The first two paragraphs is mostly a summary of one argument for God coming from Fundamentals of the Faith by Peter Kreeft. One of the prominent Catholic theologians of our era. The paragraph on Jesus comes from another book, one that does not apply to the discussion at hand except for the information posted here. It does not apply since it is discussing a specific issue within Catholic-Protestant theology not relevant.
Either the universe was created by chance or from a deity. The odds of chance for the universe can be compared to a million monkeys on typewriters and one of them by chance in a million years will have typed out Hamlet, only the odds for chance is even more staggering. The odds that life evolved as we see it today, is smaller then the inverse of the USA government's debt. So many things could have gone wrong, but here we are. The logical explanation placed by Christians and religions is a deity/deities created.
One argument put forth for a deity is called the argument of design. Looking at how the universe was designed, that mankind evolved to the way it did. 1 trillionth of a degree difference, and the carbon molecule could have never formed. The intricacies of evolution is so vast. Theory that it happened without a deity and that a survival of the fittest principle does not explain the altruistic love, abstract thinking, and our conscience. Our brain is perhaps the most complicated thing ever created. If the brain is the product of random chance, then this violates the principal of causality, (you cannot get more in the effect than the cause). If there is intelligence in us, man, the effect, then there must be intelligence in the cause. The universe built off random chance has no intelligence thus there must be a cause for human intelligence that transcends the universe, an intelligence behind our physical universe.
There is 6 other arguments discussed in his book. Excellent read if you ever get the chance.
The first two paragraphs establish there exists a deity of some sort, atleast one deity.
The next thing to ponder is if there exists such a being(s), then God(s) must have made an appearance in history.
An argument for Jesus. Secular, Jewish, and Christian sources attest to such a man living with revolutionary teaching. This man Jesus cannot be simply a good teacher. He claimed he was the Son of God. Either this is true or false. If true, then he is more then a good teacher. If false, he is far worse for he got nearly 2 billion people to believe a package of lies. The Bible claims this man Jesus was crucified and died. Everyone from that time period agree (Christians, Jews, Romans, etc), history reveals such. Death by crucifixion is guaranteed, the Romans would break the legs of the people to ensure asphyxiation. The question is whether he rosed from the dead. This is the key, for if he truly did, then he is the Son of God and we should believe in what he taught. Jesus was buried in a cave with a massive stone weighing thousands of pounds barring the entrance. Roman soldiers guarded the entrance. Since Jesus died as an enemy of the state (crucifixion was the penalty for such people), the Roman soldiers guarded the tomb because if something happened, their lives were at stake so they were vigilant at their duty. History does not show they abandoned their posts yet the body of Jesus was missing. The 11 apostles (the main followers of Jesus, Judas had hung himself so 11 at this time) were not soldiers. They were scared shitless because history reveals they were hiding during this time from the time of the crucifixion to 3 days later (when Jesus was discovered missing from the tomb). It would be highly skeptical to presume these 11 men overpowered professional soldiers. It is also skeptical that they stole the body from the tomb while the guards were sleeping. Not a likely proposition remembering how massive the stone weighed, the psychological state of the 11, and the fact the Roman soldiers would have hunted them down and killed them. Historically, there are more than a dozen secular sources noting Jesus' rising from the dead coming from the time period, not to mention the Jewish sources and hundreds of Christian sources. End result is the historical conclusion that Jesus lived, was crucified, died, was buried, but rose from the dead therefore the logical conclusion is Jesus is the Son of God.
No other religion can show their deity existing in history.
The Jewish God is the same Christian God. Christianity of these times may seem like a pool of confusion. After all, there is over 33,000 different denominations in Christianity due to backbiting, doctrine issues, interpretation, etc. Truth itself cannot be divided. Each denomination has various amounts of truth, but only one can be 100% true. This does not mean to give up for the Christian God is a God of love and He always waiting for the lost to come home.
Let me know if you have questions
~eatcow0
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| Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests [message #462924 is a reply to message #462917] |
Mon, 27 February 2012 05:08 |
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Spoony
Messages: 3915
Registered: January 2006
Karma: 0
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General (3 Stars)
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| eatcow wrote on Mon, 27 February 2012 03:29 |
Either the universe was created by chance or from a deity. The odds of chance for the universe can be compared to a million monkeys on typewriters and one of them by chance in a million years will have typed out Hamlet, only the odds for chance is even more staggering. The odds that life evolved as we see it today, is smaller then the inverse of the USA government's debt. So many things could have gone wrong, but here we are. The logical explanation placed by Christians and religions is a deity/deities created.
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...which only aggravates the question rather than answers it. now, instead of having to explain the origins of a few blobs of hydrogen or whatever, you've got to explain the origins of a super-intelligent, incomprehensibly powerful being.
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One argument put forth for a deity is called the argument of design. Looking at how the universe was designed, that mankind evolved to the way it did. 1 trillionth of a degree difference, and the carbon molecule could have never formed.
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i will admit that the "fine tuned universe" is the only semi-thought-provoking argument i've ever heard from the religious. it doesn't prove a word of their own assertions, of course, it simply shows that the origin of the universe is more complicated than we're capable of understanding right now... and certainly more complicated than the fools who wrote the bible and quran could ever dream of.
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The intricacies of evolution is so vast. Theory that it happened without a deity and that a survival of the fittest principle does not explain the altruistic love, abstract thinking, and our conscience.
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that's easy... we (most of us, anyway) have figured out that we do better if we work together. we aren't the only species intelligent enough to notice this.
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Our brain is perhaps the most complicated thing ever created. If the brain is the product of random chance, then this violates the principal of causality, (you cannot get more in the effect than the cause). If there is intelligence in us, man, the effect, then there must be intelligence in the cause. The universe built off random chance has no intelligence thus there must be a cause for human intelligence that transcends the universe, an intelligence behind our physical universe.
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uh, random chance? you used the phrase "survival of the fittest" earlier, so i presume you have heard of the theory of evolution.
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The first two paragraphs establish there exists a deity of some sort, atleast one deity.
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they try to...
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The next thing to ponder is if there exists such a being(s), then God(s) must have made an appearance in history.
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that doesn't follow. even if i accept that yes the universe was created by a god (which i don't), then it doesn't follow that this god has revealed itself to us. it might have gone away, it might have died or something, it might simply not give a shit about us or not have noticed us turning up billions of years after it started the universe up...
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An argument for Jesus. Secular, Jewish, and Christian sources attest to such a man living with revolutionary teaching. This man Jesus cannot be simply a good teacher. He claimed he was the Son of God. Either this is true or false. If true, then he is more then a good teacher. If false, he is far worse for he got nearly 2 billion people to believe a package of lies.
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false dichotomy. there are more than two options here. if he claimed to be the son of god, then he may have been lying, he may have been crazy, he may have been joking, he may have been honestly mistaken, he may have been correct (definitely the least plausible option so far), or he may not even have made the claim at all.
and even if he did say so, it's not necessarily his fault that 2 billion people believe it now.
i also take issue with the claim that he was a good teacher.
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The Bible claims this man Jesus was crucified and died. Everyone from that time period agree (Christians, Jews, Romans, etc), history reveals such. Death by crucifixion is guaranteed, the Romans would break the legs of the people to ensure asphyxiation. The question is whether he rosed from the dead. This is the key, for if he truly did, then he is the Son of God and we should believe in what he taught.
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whoah, what? you were doing fine until the last sentence. some guy did something you don't understand and therefore you know he was the "son of god"? you know what he was because you don't understand how he did X?
secondly, why does surviving death make someone a good and wise person?
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Jesus was buried in a cave with a massive stone weighing thousands of pounds barring the entrance. Roman soldiers guarded the entrance. Since Jesus died as an enemy of the state (crucifixion was the penalty for such people), the Roman soldiers guarded the tomb because if something happened, their lives were at stake so they were vigilant at their duty. History does not show they abandoned their posts yet the body of Jesus was missing. The 11 apostles (the main followers of Jesus, Judas had hung himself so 11 at this time) were not soldiers. They were scared shitless because history reveals they were hiding during this time from the time of the crucifixion to 3 days later (when Jesus was discovered missing from the tomb). It would be highly skeptical to presume these 11 men overpowered professional soldiers. It is also skeptical that they stole the body from the tomb while the guards were sleeping. Not a likely proposition remembering how massive the stone weighed, the psychological state of the 11, and the fact the Roman soldiers would have hunted them down and killed them.
Historically, there are more than a dozen secular sources noting Jesus' rising from the dead coming from the time period, not to mention the Jewish sources and hundreds of Christian sources. End result is the historical conclusion that Jesus lived, was crucified, died, was buried, but rose from the dead
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where are you getting these supposed historical facts from?
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The Jewish God is the same Christian God. Christianity of these times may seem like a pool of confusion. After all, there is over 33,000 different denominations in Christianity due to backbiting, doctrine issues, interpretation, etc.
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and the garbled and contradictory nature of the bible (which is only to be expected)
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Truth itself cannot be divided. Each denomination has various amounts of truth, but only one can be 100% true. This does not mean to give up for the Christian God is a God of love and He always waiting for the lost to come home.
Let me know if you have questions
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OK, then. Question: What happens if we don't "come home"?
Unleash the Renerageâ„¢
Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
- noun
1. the inevitable criticism one receives after doing something awful
[Updated on: Mon, 27 February 2012 05:10] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests [message #462954 is a reply to message #462924] |
Mon, 27 February 2012 08:49 |
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Jerad2142
Messages: 3805
Registered: July 2006
Location: USA
Karma: 6
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General (3 Stars) |
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| Spoony wrote on Mon, 27 February 2012 05:08 |
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Our brain is perhaps the most complicated thing ever created. If the brain is the product of random chance, then this violates the principal of causality, (you cannot get more in the effect than the cause). If there is intelligence in us, man, the effect, then there must be intelligence in the cause. The universe built off random chance has no intelligence thus there must be a cause for human intelligence that transcends the universe, an intelligence behind our physical universe.
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uh, random chance? you used the phrase "survival of the fittest" earlier, so i presume you have heard of the theory of evolution.
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I disagree with "survival of the fittest" its survival of anything that lives long enough to reproduce. And I'd have to say that anything is the "fittest" it'd be single cell organisms, as they've reproduced trillions of times more than us multi-cell organisms and yet they have remained at that base single cell level.
| Spoony wrote on Mon, 27 February 2012 05:08 |
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The next thing to ponder is if there exists such a being(s), then God(s) must have made an appearance in history.
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that doesn't follow. even if i accept that yes the universe was created by a god (which i don't), then it doesn't follow that this god has revealed itself to us. it might have gone away, it might have died or something, it might simply not give a shit about us or not have noticed us turning up billions of years after it started the universe up...
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He's sitting their with his mouse pointer over that "major flood" cheat menu right now.
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| Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests [message #462970 is a reply to message #462954] |
Mon, 27 February 2012 09:51 |
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Spoony
Messages: 3915
Registered: January 2006
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General (3 Stars)
Tactics & Strategies Moderator |
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| Jerad Gray wrote on Mon, 27 February 2012 08:49 |
I disagree with "survival of the fittest" its survival of anything that lives long enough to reproduce. And I'd have to say that anything is the "fittest" it'd be single cell organisms, as they've reproduced trillions of times more than us multi-cell organisms and yet they have remained at that base single cell level.
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I think Darwin never actually used the phrase "survival of the fittest", and it's a bit of a tautology anyway.
Unleash the Renerageâ„¢
Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
- noun
1. the inevitable criticism one receives after doing something awful
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