Home » General Discussions » Heated Discussions and Debates » Questions I would like to pose to athiests
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| Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests [message #442679 is a reply to message #442677] |
Fri, 14 January 2011 17:29   |
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Dover
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| jnz wrote on Fri, 14 January 2011 15:32 |
Outside our universe the laws of physics we are bound to do not exist! If a cosmos really exists (which unfortunately we cannot prove) then it is totally reasonable for very strange things to happen. Such as:- an infinitely dense, infinitely hot soup of particles and energy appearing out of no where!
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True. In a truly infinite universe, anything that can happen, will happen. In fact, in a truly infinite universe, anything that can happen must happen.
| DarkDemin wrote on Thu, 03 August 2006 19:19 |
Remember kids the internet is serious business.
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| Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests [message #442686 is a reply to message #442679] |
Fri, 14 January 2011 20:05 |
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R315r4z0r
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| Dover wrote on Fri, 14 January 2011 19:29 |
| jnz wrote on Fri, 14 January 2011 15:32 |
Outside our universe the laws of physics we are bound to do not exist! If a cosmos really exists (which unfortunately we cannot prove) then it is totally reasonable for very strange things to happen. Such as:- an infinitely dense, infinitely hot soup of particles and energy appearing out of no where!
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True. In a truly infinite universe, anything that can happen, will happen. In fact, in a truly infinite universe, anything that can happen must happen.
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Hey! Dover just stumbled onto another paradox!
If the universe truly is infinite then anything and everything must happen at one point in time. However, it is also true that one day the universe must end... But if infinity is the never ending expansion of something, how can the execution of everything possible happen but at the same time manage to end some day? You can't end when you are counting to infinity!
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| Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests [message #442695 is a reply to message #442568] |
Sat, 15 January 2011 02:22 |
Pyr0man1c
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Do you mean an infinite cosmos? Even then everything that could happen might not, depending on the rules of the cosmos. And what evidence do we have that there is one?
"Sapere Aude- Dare to be wise"
| AmunRa |
and its all this "drama" that will one day end renegade...
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Quotes| v00d00 |
A question regarding RenGuard. Because it's a client/server application, what will stop the legions of people who cheat, and can crack apps, from reverse engineering it down to it's core protocol / encryption (which I'll assume it has), and duplicating it, so that they have their own client which responds to the server with all the correct info for an unpatched Renegade, but in fact is patched.
Personally, I think you should write a server-side only anti-cheat, which hooks the networking routines in Renegade. From there, using either the help of your staff who worked on creating Renegade, or from knowledge aquired while working with the network code in Renegade, create a system to monitor hit locations (did they REALLY hit, based on calculations by the anti-cheat (stopping BH)), how much damage are they claiming, vs how much damage their currently selected weapon really does, etc.
Then, add rate-of-fire checking, complete w/ lag tolerance (since lagged client will of course, upon delag, seem to fire faster, etc), and option to simply "edit" the incoming packets, to filter out the cheat (reduce damage, stop bullets, etc), or kick-ban the cheater (admins decision, based on anti cheat config).
Is it just me, or does that make more sense?
The flaw to Renegade of course, which is the core to the cheats, is that unlike most other games, Renegade lets the CLIENT decide hit locations, damage, RoF, etc. Vs others which say, "ok, the client fired their pistol along this trajectory. Did they hit something? How much damage did they do to that target if so. Report findings to clients".
My only concern, is that there will be alot more teams of people ripping apart the hard work of your small team, and undoing what you have done. Can you keep up writing fixes / completely rewriting the protocol to counter them once they have created their OWN complete anti-RenGuard client? If not, consider the server-side only method, and solve it once and for all, with the only version changes being to fix bugs, and not complete rewrites which will really piss admins off (if it takes this long for the initial, how long after the cheaters create their own client to counter it will your rewrite take to do?).
- v00d00
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| ELiT3FLyR |
ill say this again to all the TT people actually working on the patch. all you have to do is fix the bugs in the game. This is your role. dont get involved in a pointfix debate that you can never win (spoony has never managed to win one and hes a decent player) nor bother suggesting solutions for the faults in pointfix. just fix the damn bugs and you will all be remmebered as renegade heroes.
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| Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests [message #442696 is a reply to message #442568] |
Sat, 15 January 2011 02:35 |
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Crimson
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I classify myself as an atheist. I was given the great gift (thought they may not have known it at the time) of not being taken to a church for regular worship. Though I will admit I did attend a couple of "Vacation Bible Schools" as a kid but even then I thought the whole idea of the "imaginary friend" that is the Judeo-Christian "God" to be silly and felt the people around me were delusional. But I digress...
As for the creation of the universe, I like the idea of the infinite universe, the zero-sum concept. I'm going to watch that video tomorrow as I am very intrigued. Before reading this thread, I had always said that I'm open to the possibility that some conscious being started the Big Bang and/or created the conditions for it to exist. But, that being said, to also go on to say that this being requires me to worship it, will subject me to heaven or hell when I die, listens to me if I pray... that is wayyyy too far-fetched for me.
From here on the outside of religion, I see it simply as a form of mass control. The root being threat of eternal hell if you fuck up. The "Powers That Be" decided to prey on peoples' fear of what happens when you die to create a hard-to-refute scenario (since no one can tell you what happens after you die, I believe you cease to be, but I secretly hope you reincarnate and start all over) where if you are bad, even if no one sees you do it, Lord Almighty sees you do it and you'll be judged to be damned to hell after you die. It's a GREAT way to control massive amounts of people! Everything else was added on after the fact. Prayer is a way to get you into a ritual where you are constantly reminded of Big Brother watching your every move.
But, believing that after this, there's nothing, I am driven only to be as good to others as I can be and enjoy the time I have here, however long it may be. I don't need the threat of eternal damnation. There's enough punishment here in life, and I usually end up getting punished in a karmic way if I do something I shouldn't do and don't get caught.
As for Pascal's Wager that was posed earlier, I believe that if there is in fact a judgment after I die, a silly little thing like not believing in something I can't perceive with any of my 5 senses isn't going to keep me from an eternal reward if I've been relatively good.
I'm the bawss.
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| Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests [message #442701 is a reply to message #442686] |
Sat, 15 January 2011 06:22 |
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Dover
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| R315r4z0r wrote on Fri, 14 January 2011 19:05 |
| Dover wrote on Fri, 14 January 2011 19:29 |
| jnz wrote on Fri, 14 January 2011 15:32 |
Outside our universe the laws of physics we are bound to do not exist! If a cosmos really exists (which unfortunately we cannot prove) then it is totally reasonable for very strange things to happen. Such as:- an infinitely dense, infinitely hot soup of particles and energy appearing out of no where!
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True. In a truly infinite universe, anything that can happen, will happen. In fact, in a truly infinite universe, anything that can happen must happen.
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Hey! Dover just stumbled onto another paradox!
If the universe truly is infinite then anything and everything must happen at one point in time. However, it is also true that one day the universe must end... But if infinity is the never ending expansion of something, how can the execution of everything possible happen but at the same time manage to end some day? You can't end when you are counting to infinity!
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I'm not sure where you're getting "However, it is also true that one day the universe must end...". That's a mighty big claim you're leaving completely unsupported out there. I'm sure it's feeling pretty lonely and would appreciate the company of some explanation.
At any rate, I wouldn't be so hasty with calling things paradoxes. Neither you nor I can fathom the concept of "the end of time", so neither you or I are in any position to say what's paradoxical and what isn't. A one-sided geometrical shape seems pretty paradoxical at first glance, too. If you've ever studied calculus, I'm sure you recall the first time hearing that "9.999999999..." repeated endlessly and "10" are actually the same number, and I'm sure that probably struck you as paradoxical at the time.
For someone who doesn't seem to understand all of this very well (And doesn't seem to be trying to understand very hard), you're certainly stubborn in trying to "refute" all of this.
| DarkDemin wrote on Thu, 03 August 2006 19:19 |
Remember kids the internet is serious business.
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| Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests [message #442723 is a reply to message #442696] |
Sat, 15 January 2011 14:42 |
Pyr0man1c
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| Crimson wrote on Sat, 15 January 2011 03:35 |
(since no one can tell you what happens after you die, I believe you cease to be, but I secretly hope you reincarnate and start all over)
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Just wondering what you mean by reincarnation? Why would wou want to be reincarnated?
"Sapere Aude- Dare to be wise"
| AmunRa |
and its all this "drama" that will one day end renegade...
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Quotes| v00d00 |
A question regarding RenGuard. Because it's a client/server application, what will stop the legions of people who cheat, and can crack apps, from reverse engineering it down to it's core protocol / encryption (which I'll assume it has), and duplicating it, so that they have their own client which responds to the server with all the correct info for an unpatched Renegade, but in fact is patched.
Personally, I think you should write a server-side only anti-cheat, which hooks the networking routines in Renegade. From there, using either the help of your staff who worked on creating Renegade, or from knowledge aquired while working with the network code in Renegade, create a system to monitor hit locations (did they REALLY hit, based on calculations by the anti-cheat (stopping BH)), how much damage are they claiming, vs how much damage their currently selected weapon really does, etc.
Then, add rate-of-fire checking, complete w/ lag tolerance (since lagged client will of course, upon delag, seem to fire faster, etc), and option to simply "edit" the incoming packets, to filter out the cheat (reduce damage, stop bullets, etc), or kick-ban the cheater (admins decision, based on anti cheat config).
Is it just me, or does that make more sense?
The flaw to Renegade of course, which is the core to the cheats, is that unlike most other games, Renegade lets the CLIENT decide hit locations, damage, RoF, etc. Vs others which say, "ok, the client fired their pistol along this trajectory. Did they hit something? How much damage did they do to that target if so. Report findings to clients".
My only concern, is that there will be alot more teams of people ripping apart the hard work of your small team, and undoing what you have done. Can you keep up writing fixes / completely rewriting the protocol to counter them once they have created their OWN complete anti-RenGuard client? If not, consider the server-side only method, and solve it once and for all, with the only version changes being to fix bugs, and not complete rewrites which will really piss admins off (if it takes this long for the initial, how long after the cheaters create their own client to counter it will your rewrite take to do?).
- v00d00
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| ELiT3FLyR |
ill say this again to all the TT people actually working on the patch. all you have to do is fix the bugs in the game. This is your role. dont get involved in a pointfix debate that you can never win (spoony has never managed to win one and hes a decent player) nor bother suggesting solutions for the faults in pointfix. just fix the damn bugs and you will all be remmebered as renegade heroes.
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[Updated on: Sat, 15 January 2011 14:43] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests [message #442733 is a reply to message #442710] |
Sat, 15 January 2011 17:23 |
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Dover
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| R315r4z0r wrote on Sat, 15 January 2011 09:40 |
No, you're right. I had a hard time picking the word for what I said. Admittedly, I don't think paradox is the right one, but what other would could I use?
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Well, in elementary school, people would raise their hand and say "I don't get it" when they didn't understand something, not "This is wrong."
| R315r4z0r wrote on Sat, 15 January 2011 09:40 |
| Dover wrote on Sat, 15 January 2011 08:22 |
I'm not sure where you're getting "However, it is also true that one day the universe must end...". That's a mighty big claim you're leaving completely unsupported out there. I'm sure it's feeling pretty lonely and would appreciate the company of some explanation.
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I don't have to explain it. You did it for me.
You said that anything and everything would have to happen, correct? The universe ending is something that would therefore have to end up happening... eventually.
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Reread what I said carefully. Anything that can happen, must happen. Assuming the universe in truly infinite, if time ends the universe is no longer infinite and the statement no longer holds. No paradox, just a finite universe.
You're also making the assumption that time ending is something that "can happen". The theory behind what I said is that any number greater than zero muliplied by infinity will yield infinity, which in statistical terms is the surest guarantee you can ever have that something will happen. This is not the case if you multiply infinity by zero (in which case you get just zero). Without knowing more about "the end of time", neither of us can say for sure what the odds of it occurring are.
This is entirely different from the things mentioned earlier in this thread (like the laws of physics no longer applying, or a big bang occurring), because we "know" (As much as we can "know") that they have already occured at least once, and therefore the probability of it happening again are greater than zero.
| DarkDemin wrote on Thu, 03 August 2006 19:19 |
Remember kids the internet is serious business.
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| Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests [message #442736 is a reply to message #442568] |
Sat, 15 January 2011 20:43 |
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R315r4z0r
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Thinking about it again, paradox was the correct word to use.
If everything must happen, then the end of the universe must be one of the things to happen. Anything that begins must eventually come to an end. That's how our level of reality works. If the universe is infinite, then it can't end. But if it can't end, then it is therefore not infinite because that is something that can't happen. For something to be infinite, there can't be anything that cannot happen; even if it doesn't make any sense to us.
What I was saying earlier is that we can't comprehend a lot of things that is supposed to happen in the universe. That means that it is very possible for the laws of physics, logic, and reality to change drastically. However, despite that, it doesn't change the idea that an infinite universe must encompass all things possible. All things in our level of reality included; meaning all things must eventually come to an end.
I don't think that the concept of infinity can really be applied to the universe. Perhaps there is a concept, other than infinity, that isn't possible for humans to comprehend.
Think about it, infinity really isn't a hard concept to understand. It's a human concept after all. It just means endless possibilities. If the universe really has states that we can't understand, why are we so sure that it can be measured by a human concept? That goes beyond simply not understanding how a scenario plays out... it goes to a level where we just can't measure the vastness of what the universe encompasses.
For example, to us, there are two ways to order things:
Sequentially and non-sequentially. But what if there is a concept that we just can't comprehend? Counting (1,2,3,....) in a different dimension could be totally different then we know of it. So why assume that the vastness of the universe can be measured by the human concept of infinity?
[Updated on: Sat, 15 January 2011 20:56] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests [message #442756 is a reply to message #442736] |
Sun, 16 January 2011 00:52 |
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Dover
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| R315r4z0r wrote on Sat, 15 January 2011 19:43 |
Thinking about it again, paradox was the correct word to use.
If everything must happen, then the end of the universe must be one of the things to happen. Anything that begins must eventually come to an end. That's how our level of reality works. If the universe is infinite, then it can't end. But if it can't end, then it is therefore not infinite because that is something that can't happen. For something to be infinite, there can't be anything that cannot happen; even if it doesn't make any sense to us.
What I was saying earlier is that we can't comprehend a lot of things that is supposed to happen in the universe. That means that it is very possible for the laws of physics, logic, and reality to change drastically. However, despite that, it doesn't change the idea that an infinite universe must encompass all things possible. All things in our level of reality included; meaning all things must eventually come to an end.
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It's like you didn't read my response. If you did, you certainly didn't understand it. Let me try going slower;
1) There is a certain probability that any given event will occur.
2) If that probability is greater than zero...
3) and given an infinite amount of time...
4) then that event will eventually occur.
Does "the universe coming to an end" satisfy condition 2? If you think so, why?
| DarkDemin wrote on Thu, 03 August 2006 19:19 |
Remember kids the internet is serious business.
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| Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests [message #442763 is a reply to message #442568] |
Sun, 16 January 2011 02:29 |
Pyr0man1c
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We don't live in an infinite universe?
"Sapere Aude- Dare to be wise"
| AmunRa |
and its all this "drama" that will one day end renegade...
|
Quotes| v00d00 |
A question regarding RenGuard. Because it's a client/server application, what will stop the legions of people who cheat, and can crack apps, from reverse engineering it down to it's core protocol / encryption (which I'll assume it has), and duplicating it, so that they have their own client which responds to the server with all the correct info for an unpatched Renegade, but in fact is patched.
Personally, I think you should write a server-side only anti-cheat, which hooks the networking routines in Renegade. From there, using either the help of your staff who worked on creating Renegade, or from knowledge aquired while working with the network code in Renegade, create a system to monitor hit locations (did they REALLY hit, based on calculations by the anti-cheat (stopping BH)), how much damage are they claiming, vs how much damage their currently selected weapon really does, etc.
Then, add rate-of-fire checking, complete w/ lag tolerance (since lagged client will of course, upon delag, seem to fire faster, etc), and option to simply "edit" the incoming packets, to filter out the cheat (reduce damage, stop bullets, etc), or kick-ban the cheater (admins decision, based on anti cheat config).
Is it just me, or does that make more sense?
The flaw to Renegade of course, which is the core to the cheats, is that unlike most other games, Renegade lets the CLIENT decide hit locations, damage, RoF, etc. Vs others which say, "ok, the client fired their pistol along this trajectory. Did they hit something? How much damage did they do to that target if so. Report findings to clients".
My only concern, is that there will be alot more teams of people ripping apart the hard work of your small team, and undoing what you have done. Can you keep up writing fixes / completely rewriting the protocol to counter them once they have created their OWN complete anti-RenGuard client? If not, consider the server-side only method, and solve it once and for all, with the only version changes being to fix bugs, and not complete rewrites which will really piss admins off (if it takes this long for the initial, how long after the cheaters create their own client to counter it will your rewrite take to do?).
- v00d00
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| ELiT3FLyR |
ill say this again to all the TT people actually working on the patch. all you have to do is fix the bugs in the game. This is your role. dont get involved in a pointfix debate that you can never win (spoony has never managed to win one and hes a decent player) nor bother suggesting solutions for the faults in pointfix. just fix the damn bugs and you will all be remmebered as renegade heroes.
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| Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests [message #442765 is a reply to message #442568] |
Sun, 16 January 2011 04:18 |
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Spyder
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Why do so many people feel the need to worship?
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People believe in a God because they need something in life to hold on to. Things like Gods give them hope and make life just that much easier for them. People who believe in something higher always have the idea that there is someone who always listens to them and makes them feel good, because they always have someone with them who they "know" and trust.
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If there is no signifigance to life, no meaning to it, you must reflect that life is nothing more than an experiance that will end, and therefor be a waste of time?
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Life and death are still something we do not know much about. I have read a lot about these subjects, but there is no clear answer yet.
I have been baptized/holy communion etc. I grew up being a catholic, but I would rather call myself an atheist. I believe in an afterlife, but not in a so-called "heaven" or "hell". I am very confident that there are things around us, which we often call "ghosts" or "spirits", the souls of the deceased. But this has nothing to do with worshiping a god or religions. Life after death and the significance of life is a globally discussed subject.
First, the significance of life. While reading books and articles on the internet I encountered this question many times. There are many different answers to it, but the one that I found most interesting was the following: "We are (re)born with a purpose. We contribute to the world for our successors. We are born with a task to complete and to gain more experience to grow. Then, when we are reborn again, we will have more experience already and become a better, more successful person. When we have served our purpose about eight times you become an elderly spirit (the wisest of all) and you have lived eight human lives already. When that time is up, your spirit/soul will move to the astral world and you have the ability to travel between several dimensions. You are a free spirit that will (probably) never be reborn again. But remember that during the time on earth, you have shared your experience with much younger spirits and created a better world."
Now the life after death part. I have read a lot of stories on near-death-experiences, ghost encounters (apparitions) and more paranormal things (now don't laugh at me, it's just what I'm interested in). When my grandmother was in the hospital in a bad condition, in her dream (don't know if it was a dream/lucid dream or reality) she saw her husband (my grandfather), who told her to come to him, because he missed her so much. He wanted to be with her. A few days later my grandmother died, but before that, she told this story to my mother, who then told me the story about 6 months ago. This, for me, is enough proof that there is something after death. Also people with near-death-experiences. It cannot be a coincidence that everyone has the same experience when they are on the verge of life and death, it's impossible to be a coincidence.
There are even stories of people who had been blind for their entire life who had a near-death-experience. These people had never been able to see hospital equipment, but after they had a near-death-experience and found themselves floating over their dead bodies, they could describe in detail what the room looked like, what the equipment looked like and even what the doctors looked like!
A friend of mine had a theory, which he thought would prove that there was life after death. This one: "On this very day, you still have memories of your childhood, last year's birthday party, holidays etc. Would it sound logical if this all ends when you are dead? All those well kept memories vanish, just like that."
A scientist would say that it's possible, because after death, there is no more brain activity. A paranormal person would say that it is not possible for those memories to vanish, because they are kept in the subconscious, which is the soul and not the brain (like scientists would say).
Now back to your questions. I understand that you want to have answers to your questions, but it would be better to ask your questions in a different way. Because the majority of them has nothing to do with religion, they are just commonly asked questions which can be answered by any random person, religious or not. I also suggest you start looking up articles or books on those subjects, compare the answers and draw your own conclusions, because the things you are asking for now, are nothing more than opinions.
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| Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests [message #442770 is a reply to message #442763] |
Sun, 16 January 2011 05:11 |
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Dover
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| Pyr0man1c wrote on Sun, 16 January 2011 01:29 |
We don't live in an infinite universe?
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Debatable, especially in regards to time.
In spatial terms, if we have an "open universe" (Gravity is insufficient to reverse the universe's expansion), then we do live in an infinite universe in the strictest sense. The mathematical definition of infinite is "To increase without bound". We know for a fact that the size of universe is increasing, and unless some force exists to curb its expansion, then "infinite" is the exactly proper term for it.
| DarkDemin wrote on Thu, 03 August 2006 19:19 |
Remember kids the internet is serious business.
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[Updated on: Sun, 16 January 2011 05:12] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests [message #442784 is a reply to message #442770] |
Sun, 16 January 2011 09:28 |
Pyr0man1c
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True, but the amount of matter isn't increasing (as far as we know), and so i don't think we can describe the universe as "infinite".
Infinite in time and space maybe, but that's quite different.
"Sapere Aude- Dare to be wise"
| AmunRa |
and its all this "drama" that will one day end renegade...
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Quotes| v00d00 |
A question regarding RenGuard. Because it's a client/server application, what will stop the legions of people who cheat, and can crack apps, from reverse engineering it down to it's core protocol / encryption (which I'll assume it has), and duplicating it, so that they have their own client which responds to the server with all the correct info for an unpatched Renegade, but in fact is patched.
Personally, I think you should write a server-side only anti-cheat, which hooks the networking routines in Renegade. From there, using either the help of your staff who worked on creating Renegade, or from knowledge aquired while working with the network code in Renegade, create a system to monitor hit locations (did they REALLY hit, based on calculations by the anti-cheat (stopping BH)), how much damage are they claiming, vs how much damage their currently selected weapon really does, etc.
Then, add rate-of-fire checking, complete w/ lag tolerance (since lagged client will of course, upon delag, seem to fire faster, etc), and option to simply "edit" the incoming packets, to filter out the cheat (reduce damage, stop bullets, etc), or kick-ban the cheater (admins decision, based on anti cheat config).
Is it just me, or does that make more sense?
The flaw to Renegade of course, which is the core to the cheats, is that unlike most other games, Renegade lets the CLIENT decide hit locations, damage, RoF, etc. Vs others which say, "ok, the client fired their pistol along this trajectory. Did they hit something? How much damage did they do to that target if so. Report findings to clients".
My only concern, is that there will be alot more teams of people ripping apart the hard work of your small team, and undoing what you have done. Can you keep up writing fixes / completely rewriting the protocol to counter them once they have created their OWN complete anti-RenGuard client? If not, consider the server-side only method, and solve it once and for all, with the only version changes being to fix bugs, and not complete rewrites which will really piss admins off (if it takes this long for the initial, how long after the cheaters create their own client to counter it will your rewrite take to do?).
- v00d00
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| ELiT3FLyR |
ill say this again to all the TT people actually working on the patch. all you have to do is fix the bugs in the game. This is your role. dont get involved in a pointfix debate that you can never win (spoony has never managed to win one and hes a decent player) nor bother suggesting solutions for the faults in pointfix. just fix the damn bugs and you will all be remmebered as renegade heroes.
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[Updated on: Sun, 16 January 2011 11:35] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests [message #442789 is a reply to message #442756] |
Sun, 16 January 2011 10:47 |
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R315r4z0r
Messages: 3836
Registered: March 2005
Location: New York
Karma: 0
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| Dover wrote on Sun, 16 January 2011 02:52 |
| R315r4z0r wrote on Sat, 15 January 2011 19:43 |
Thinking about it again, paradox was the correct word to use.
If everything must happen, then the end of the universe must be one of the things to happen. Anything that begins must eventually come to an end. That's how our level of reality works. If the universe is infinite, then it can't end. But if it can't end, then it is therefore not infinite because that is something that can't happen. For something to be infinite, there can't be anything that cannot happen; even if it doesn't make any sense to us.
What I was saying earlier is that we can't comprehend a lot of things that is supposed to happen in the universe. That means that it is very possible for the laws of physics, logic, and reality to change drastically. However, despite that, it doesn't change the idea that an infinite universe must encompass all things possible. All things in our level of reality included; meaning all things must eventually come to an end.
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It's like you didn't read my response. If you did, you certainly didn't understand it. Let me try going slower;
1) There is a certain probability that any given event will occur.
2) If that probability is greater than zero...
3) and given an infinite amount of time...
4) then that event will eventually occur.
Does "the universe coming to an end" satisfy condition 2? If you think so, why?
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That's what the second part of my post pertains to (the part you failed to quote.)
You're only talking about time and the probability of something happening according to our (human) way of comprehension.
The term infinity is similar to the term omnipotent in that both are used to describe the presence of all things.
Just like mathematical number sets such as
whole numbers [1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6.....]
odd numbers [1, 3, 5, 7, 9,....]
Integers [...-3, -2, -1, 0, 1, 2, 3....]
etc.
An infinite set encompasses every single combination of numbers possible. From every single number to every single tiny trillionth decimal place and forever onward. There is literally no end to each number and no end to the amount of numbers in this set.
If any one element of this set is not present, then, by definition, the set cannot be considered infinite. This includes the number 0, which is symbolic for nothing or the absence of something. Therefore, when you're talking about things in terms of reality, this also has to encompass things that have 0% probability of happening.
Something with a 0% probability obviously doesn't exist and cannot happen, however it still needs to be calculated if the universe is truly infinite. It's the lack of their probability to happen that needs to be observed and taken into consideration.
Whether or not the universe can truly end is beyond our understanding, but if the universe is truly infinite we have to accept that the idea of it ending (or lack there of) cannot be omitted. Doing so would be like omitting the number 0 from the number set infinity; if you do that, the number set is no longer considered infinite. So, taking away the idea of the universe ending means that the universe is therefore not infinite.
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| Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests [message #442811 is a reply to message #442568] |
Sun, 16 January 2011 17:00 |
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GEORGE ZIMMER
Messages: 2605
Registered: March 2006
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I never really see why science and the belief in a higher being are mutually exclusive... I guess because of the general retardation that religious folk bring, but still. I think it's rather reasonable to assume the big bang happened as science described it, and that was caused by some greater being.
That being said, the bible/quar'ran/torah/etc aren't factbooks, and everyone who takes them as such should be removed from society. They're storybooks with interesting tales and some (repeat: some) lessons in them. Not a guidebook or a factbook.
Toggle Spoiler| Scrin wrote on Sat, 24 January 2009 13:22 |
| cAmpa wrote on Sat, 24 January 2009 12:45 |
Scrin, stop pming people to get the building bars.
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FUCK YOU AND THIS SHIT GAME WITH YOUR SCRIPTS!!! I HAVE ASKING YOU AND ANOTHER NOOBS HERE ABOUT HELP WITH THAT BUILDING ICONS FEATURES FOR YEARS, BUT YOU KEEP IGNORING ME AND KEEP WRITE SHIT, SO BURN YOU AND YOUR ASSLICKERS FRIENDS, THIS TIME I'M NOT COME BACK!!!!!!!!!   
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| Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests [message #442815 is a reply to message #442789] |
Sun, 16 January 2011 19:09 |
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Dover
Messages: 2547
Registered: March 2006
Location: Monterey, California
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Oh, I see the problem. You don't know what "infinite" means. You think it means "all numbers", for some strange reason. Again, you're making things complicated than they are on behalf of your ignorance.
| R315r4z0r wrote on Sun, 16 January 2011 09:47 |
You're only talking about time and the probability of something happening according to our (human) way of comprehension.
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Obviously. What other way of comprehension do we know about?
| R315r4z0r wrote on Sun, 16 January 2011 09:47 |
The term infinity is similar to the term omnipotent in that both are used to describe the presence of all things.
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Incorrect.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/infinite
If you took a given number "x", and began to add (or subtract) any other given non-zero number "y" to (from) x repeatedly without end, you would still end up at infinity (or negative infinity), even though you would obviously "miss" numbers that are not multiples of y. The condition of not having a bound or ending point is still satisfied.
| R315r4z0r wrote on Sun, 16 January 2011 09:47 |
Just like mathematical number sets such as
whole numbers (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6.....)
odd numbers (1, 3, 5, 7, 9,....)
Integers (...-3, -2, -1, 0, 1, 2, 3....)
etc.
An infinite set encompasses every single combination of numbers possible. From every single number to every single tiny trillionth decimal place and forever onward. There is literally no end to each number and no end to the amount of numbers in this set.
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You're obviously confused.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite_set
Every single set you just posted is an infinite set. They all have no bound or endpoint, since there is no known greatest whole number or integer. For any number x you cared to name, I would only have to provide you with x+1 (x+2 in the case of your odd numbers set), and the set would continue. Boundless, endless.
The set you're thinking of would be termed "All real numbers", but even that doesn't encompass everything the way you think it does. The only part you're actually right about is that there's no end to the amount of numbers in such a set.
| R315r4z0r wrote on Sun, 16 January 2011 09:47 |
If any one element of this set is not present, then, by definition, the set cannot be considered infinite. This includes the number 0, which is symbolic for nothing or the absence of something. Therefore, when you're talking about things in terms of reality, this also has to encompass things that have 0% probability of happening.
Something with a 0% probability obviously doesn't exist and cannot happen, however it still needs to be calculated if the universe is truly infinite. It's the lack of their probability to happen that needs to be observed and taken into consideration.
Whether or not the universe can truly end is beyond our understanding, but if the universe is truly infinite we have to accept that the idea of it ending (or lack there of) cannot be omitted. Doing so would be like omitting the number 0 from the number set infinity; if you do that, the number set is no longer considered infinite. So, taking away the idea of the universe ending means that the universe is therefore not infinite.
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You have your definitions mixed up, but since I straightened that out already above, I'll mostly ignore this. Keep in mind that the set of natural numbers (1, 2, 3, 4...x+1) is still an infinite set, despite not encompassing zero. And besides, nobody is omitting anything. We're here discussing the possibility of the world ending, aren't we? I simply questioned your assumption that the universe will end one day.
I swear, R3. Sometimes I feel like you post just because you enjoy reading your own bullshit. >:[
| DarkDemin wrote on Thu, 03 August 2006 19:19 |
Remember kids the internet is serious business.
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[Updated on: Sun, 16 January 2011 19:12] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests [message #442900 is a reply to message #442894] |
Tue, 18 January 2011 03:12 |
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Spoony
Messages: 3915
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General (3 Stars)
Tactics & Strategies Moderator |
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well, what happened next was quite funny. he went to the pope and told him about his theory, and the pope offered to make it dogma - i.e. something catholics are told they must believe. there's certainly nothing scientific about that.
certainly you can point to scientists throughout the centuries who believed some batshit crazy things, such as alchemy or catholicism.
Unleash the Renerageâ„¢
Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
- noun
1. the inevitable criticism one receives after doing something awful
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| Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests [message #442907 is a reply to message #442568] |
Tue, 18 January 2011 03:58 |
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EvilWhiteDragon
Messages: 3751
Registered: October 2005
Location: The Netherlands
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| reborn wrote on Thu, 13 January 2011 10:33 |
If there is no deity that created the universe, how did the universe come to be? Specifically I am talking about the creation of something from nothing. If we are to belive the "Big Bang Theory" then where did the Two giant gas clouds come from? How do you get something from nothing? Where does all matter come from?
Why do so many people feel the need to worship?
If there is no signifigance to life, no meaning to it, you must reflect that life is nothing more than an experiance that will end, and therefor be a waste of time?
Are we as humans different to other animals? We have more intelligence and we have higher reasoning. Why are we the only ones?
If God does not exist, then can someone still hope for better times when in despair? Is hope just a random chance of roulette? There is no universal force of fairness and equality, no Karma?
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If we believe the creationist theory, then who created the creator? God must've come from somewhere as well.
Just for reference, I'm agnostic.
BlackIntel admin/founder/PR dude (not a coder)
Please visit http://www.blackintel.org/
| V, V for Vendetta |
People should not be afraid of their governments.
Governments should be afraid of their people.
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| Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests [message #442908 is a reply to message #442686] |
Tue, 18 January 2011 04:00 |
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EvilWhiteDragon
Messages: 3751
Registered: October 2005
Location: The Netherlands
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General (3 Stars) |
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| R315r4z0r wrote on Sat, 15 January 2011 04:05 |
| Dover wrote on Fri, 14 January 2011 19:29 |
| jnz wrote on Fri, 14 January 2011 15:32 |
Outside our universe the laws of physics we are bound to do not exist! If a cosmos really exists (which unfortunately we cannot prove) then it is totally reasonable for very strange things to happen. Such as:- an infinitely dense, infinitely hot soup of particles and energy appearing out of no where!
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True. In a truly infinite universe, anything that can happen, will happen. In fact, in a truly infinite universe, anything that can happen must happen.
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Hey! Dover just stumbled onto another paradox!
If the universe truly is infinite then anything and everything must happen at one point in time. However, it is also true that one day the universe must end... But if infinity is the never ending expansion of something, how can the execution of everything possible happen but at the same time manage to end some day? You can't end when you are counting to infinity!
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The universe isn't infinite, it's still growing. We know how big it is (13 billion lightyears afaik), so ...
BlackIntel admin/founder/PR dude (not a coder)
Please visit http://www.blackintel.org/
| V, V for Vendetta |
People should not be afraid of their governments.
Governments should be afraid of their people.
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