Home » General Discussions » Heated Discussions and Debates » don't ask don't tell
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| Re: don't ask don't tell [message #442543 is a reply to message #442541] |
Wed, 12 January 2011 14:06   |
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Spoony
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like i said, i wasn't asking for lab results, just "what is your reason for thinking that?" there is a good reason to think how suicide would affect family/friends, and if there's a good reason then it's not faith.
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Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
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1. the inevitable criticism one receives after doing something awful
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| Re: don't ask don't tell [message #442559 is a reply to message #442545] |
Wed, 12 January 2011 23:39 |
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reborn
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| Spoony wrote on Wed, 12 January 2011 13:28 |
if nobody had ever conned him into thinking faith was a good thing, he wouldn't have been in the predicament in the first place. he wouldn't need to say "i have faith that my family/friends will be crushed if i commit suicide"; remove the bullshit con that is 'faith', cut the first four words of the sentence and it not only still works, it's much better.
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I'm not saying you're wrong, I can see sense in your arguement. The thing is though, he is in that predicament, is it fair to tamper with that?
| Spoony wrote on Wed, 12 January 2011 13:28 |
one must not be absolutist. in almost every situation honesty is the best policy, though situations can be found where it isn't (the usually cited example is when the nazis knock on your door and ask you if you know the location of any jews)
sure, if someone lies to you about what's happening to a dead loved one it may well make you feel better, but that's a subjective thing. i don't want to be lied to about that and i don't want anyone assuming i would.
i would be curious to know just how he "found" christianity. i also suggest that there are other things you could swap for the word "christianity" in that paragraph without having to change another word.
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It may not work for you, but it certainly worked for this guy. He is almost like his old self. If a book, belief or place of worship can give him that relief then I think it's a good thing for him.
You may think that he has swapped one imprisonment for another, but if this is true, then in his case I believe it is the lesser prison.
He found Christianty I believe from a family member some time after his child passed away.
The thing is, he believed his child had died and that was it. They was gone. From your point of view he believed the truth, he just couldn't handle it. He turned to faith and this allowed him to continue. Is that so bad?
| Spoony wrote on Wed, 12 January 2011 13:28 |
not really faith itself, though, is it? the article of faith might be.
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I don't actually understand, sorry.
| R315r4z0r wrote on Wed, 12 January 2011 18:12 |
Tbh, "faith" is just a synonym for "hope."
"I have faith in God" is just a fancy way of saying "I hope God exists... cause if not I'm pretty much screwed."
:V
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No, that's not what it means to people who have it. They truely believe. There is no hope about it. If they had the level of doubt you're describing then it isn't really and truely faith, they're just going through the motions...
[Updated on: Thu, 13 January 2011 01:00] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: don't ask don't tell [message #442565 is a reply to message #442559] |
Thu, 13 January 2011 01:18 |
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Spoony
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| reborn wrote on Thu, 13 January 2011 00:39 |
I'm not saying you're wrong, I can see sense in your arguement. The thing is though, he is in that predicament, is it fair to tamper with that?
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he doesn't appear to be in the predicament any more, and it sounds a little desperate to suggest that telling him that he has a good reason to think this and therefore it is not 'faith' is a dangerous thing to be saying.
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It may not work for you, but it certainly worked for this guy. He is almost like his old self. If a book, belief or place of worship can give him that relief then I think it's a good thing for him.
You may think that he has swapped one imprisonment for another, but if this is true, then in his case I believe it is the lesser prison.
He found Christianty I believe from a family member some time after his child passed away.
The thing is, he believed his child had died and that was it. They was gone. From your point of view he believed the truth, he just couldn't handle it. He turned to faith and this allowed him to continue. Is that so bad?
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like i said, some people may prefer a comforting lie to the cold truth. if the religion works for the guy and doesn't harm or try to harm others he's welcome to it; i hope it comforts him. have you actually read any of my comments on religion? it doesn't sound like it tbh
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| Spoony wrote on Wed, 12 January 2011 13:28 |
not really faith itself, though, is it? the article of faith might be.
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I don't actually understand, sorry.
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it's what is being believed that has the effect, not the act of believing something for no reason and against evidence.
Unleash the Renerageâ„¢
Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
- noun
1. the inevitable criticism one receives after doing something awful
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| Re: don't ask don't tell [message #442566 is a reply to message #442565] |
Thu, 13 January 2011 01:49 |
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reborn
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| Spoony wrote on Thu, 13 January 2011 03:18 |
he doesn't appear to be in the predicament any more, and it sounds a little desperate to suggest that telling him that he has a good reason to think this and therefore it is not 'faith' is a dangerous thing to be saying.
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I'm not so sure. Clearly in this case, it was the difference between life and death.
Perhaps you're right though, I just just wouldn't want to have to answer the question "So ok, you're right. Christianity is nothing more than lies based on lies and I clung to it because I was scared and desperately wanted to believe in something, because I cannot believe in myself. Now I know this is all rubbish, I still cannot believe in myself and my reason for living has been taken away, what do you think I should do now, because I'm on my way to Suicide cliff.".
I wouldn't want that sort of shit on my head. Granted though, that's for cases where faith is their entire life. Although if they claim they truely have faith in their religion then this should apply to many many many more people then it does in reality.
| Spoony wrote on Thu, 13 January 2011 03:18 |
like i said, some people may prefer a comforting lie to the cold truth. if the religion works for the guy and doesn't harm or try to harm others he's welcome to it; i hope it comforts him. have you actually read any of my comments on religion? it doesn't sound like it tbh
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I have, and I do read your posts. It's why I was surprised to see you try to steer Carrier down a different trail of thought when he mentioned something quite touching.
The way I see your position on it is "If they keep that poison to themselves, you can shoot it up all day long. Just keep it away from the kids, and anyone else for that matter.". I hope the drug analogy was not lost. 
| Spoony wrote on Thu, 13 January 2011 03:18 |
it's what is being believed that has the effect, not the act of believing something for no reason and against evidence.
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Yeah I guess you're right. I can't argue with that and wouldn't want to.
I'm just saying that if there is no evidence of it, but they want to believe it and you start pointing out the fact that all the evidence points otherwise, in some situations you're not doing them any favours. Although you've displayed that you've grapsed what I am saying, so I am possibly rambling.
I must admit though, this is probably getting far fetched in this case.
My entire point could probably be summed up with: "You don't have to fight every battle just because it's there, especially when your defense of "doing it for the right reasons" can sometimes fail you (or more importantly fail the person you're trying to "save" ("save" being a rather ironic word to choose I suppose)).".
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| Re: don't ask don't tell [message #442569 is a reply to message #442545] |
Thu, 13 January 2011 02:37 |
Pyr0man1c
Messages: 186
Registered: April 2009
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| R315r4z0r wrote on Wed, 12 January 2011 17:12 |
"I have faith in God" is just a fancy way of saying "I hope God exists... cause if not I'm pretty much screwed."
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Explain please? If god doesn't exist, how would religious believers be screwed?
"Sapere Aude- Dare to be wise"
| AmunRa |
and its all this "drama" that will one day end renegade...
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Quotes| v00d00 |
A question regarding RenGuard. Because it's a client/server application, what will stop the legions of people who cheat, and can crack apps, from reverse engineering it down to it's core protocol / encryption (which I'll assume it has), and duplicating it, so that they have their own client which responds to the server with all the correct info for an unpatched Renegade, but in fact is patched.
Personally, I think you should write a server-side only anti-cheat, which hooks the networking routines in Renegade. From there, using either the help of your staff who worked on creating Renegade, or from knowledge aquired while working with the network code in Renegade, create a system to monitor hit locations (did they REALLY hit, based on calculations by the anti-cheat (stopping BH)), how much damage are they claiming, vs how much damage their currently selected weapon really does, etc.
Then, add rate-of-fire checking, complete w/ lag tolerance (since lagged client will of course, upon delag, seem to fire faster, etc), and option to simply "edit" the incoming packets, to filter out the cheat (reduce damage, stop bullets, etc), or kick-ban the cheater (admins decision, based on anti cheat config).
Is it just me, or does that make more sense?
The flaw to Renegade of course, which is the core to the cheats, is that unlike most other games, Renegade lets the CLIENT decide hit locations, damage, RoF, etc. Vs others which say, "ok, the client fired their pistol along this trajectory. Did they hit something? How much damage did they do to that target if so. Report findings to clients".
My only concern, is that there will be alot more teams of people ripping apart the hard work of your small team, and undoing what you have done. Can you keep up writing fixes / completely rewriting the protocol to counter them once they have created their OWN complete anti-RenGuard client? If not, consider the server-side only method, and solve it once and for all, with the only version changes being to fix bugs, and not complete rewrites which will really piss admins off (if it takes this long for the initial, how long after the cheaters create their own client to counter it will your rewrite take to do?).
- v00d00
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| ELiT3FLyR |
ill say this again to all the TT people actually working on the patch. all you have to do is fix the bugs in the game. This is your role. dont get involved in a pointfix debate that you can never win (spoony has never managed to win one and hes a decent player) nor bother suggesting solutions for the faults in pointfix. just fix the damn bugs and you will all be remmebered as renegade heroes.
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| Re: don't ask don't tell [message #442572 is a reply to message #442571] |
Thu, 13 January 2011 03:01 |
Pyr0man1c
Messages: 186
Registered: April 2009
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True, but the theist shouldnt really sacrifice much at all for a better afterlife, and so wouldn't be screwed
"Sapere Aude- Dare to be wise"
| AmunRa |
and its all this "drama" that will one day end renegade...
|
Quotes| v00d00 |
A question regarding RenGuard. Because it's a client/server application, what will stop the legions of people who cheat, and can crack apps, from reverse engineering it down to it's core protocol / encryption (which I'll assume it has), and duplicating it, so that they have their own client which responds to the server with all the correct info for an unpatched Renegade, but in fact is patched.
Personally, I think you should write a server-side only anti-cheat, which hooks the networking routines in Renegade. From there, using either the help of your staff who worked on creating Renegade, or from knowledge aquired while working with the network code in Renegade, create a system to monitor hit locations (did they REALLY hit, based on calculations by the anti-cheat (stopping BH)), how much damage are they claiming, vs how much damage their currently selected weapon really does, etc.
Then, add rate-of-fire checking, complete w/ lag tolerance (since lagged client will of course, upon delag, seem to fire faster, etc), and option to simply "edit" the incoming packets, to filter out the cheat (reduce damage, stop bullets, etc), or kick-ban the cheater (admins decision, based on anti cheat config).
Is it just me, or does that make more sense?
The flaw to Renegade of course, which is the core to the cheats, is that unlike most other games, Renegade lets the CLIENT decide hit locations, damage, RoF, etc. Vs others which say, "ok, the client fired their pistol along this trajectory. Did they hit something? How much damage did they do to that target if so. Report findings to clients".
My only concern, is that there will be alot more teams of people ripping apart the hard work of your small team, and undoing what you have done. Can you keep up writing fixes / completely rewriting the protocol to counter them once they have created their OWN complete anti-RenGuard client? If not, consider the server-side only method, and solve it once and for all, with the only version changes being to fix bugs, and not complete rewrites which will really piss admins off (if it takes this long for the initial, how long after the cheaters create their own client to counter it will your rewrite take to do?).
- v00d00
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| ELiT3FLyR |
ill say this again to all the TT people actually working on the patch. all you have to do is fix the bugs in the game. This is your role. dont get involved in a pointfix debate that you can never win (spoony has never managed to win one and hes a decent player) nor bother suggesting solutions for the faults in pointfix. just fix the damn bugs and you will all be remmebered as renegade heroes.
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[Updated on: Thu, 13 January 2011 03:58] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: don't ask don't tell [message #442575 is a reply to message #442566] |
Thu, 13 January 2011 03:30 |
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Spoony
Messages: 3915
Registered: January 2006
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General (3 Stars)
Tactics & Strategies Moderator |
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| reborn wrote on Thu, 13 January 2011 02:49 |
| Spoony wrote on Thu, 13 January 2011 03:18 |
he doesn't appear to be in the predicament any more, and it sounds a little desperate to suggest that telling him that he has a good reason to think this and therefore it is not 'faith' is a dangerous thing to be saying.
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I'm not so sure. Clearly in this case, it was the difference between life and death.
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and am i really the first person to point out that what made the difference was a hell of a lot stronger than religion would have us believe?
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Perhaps you're right though, I just just wouldn't want to have to answer the question "So ok, you're right. Christianity is nothing more than lies based on lies and I clung to it because I was scared and desperately wanted to believe in something, because I cannot believe in myself. Now I know this is all rubbish, I still cannot believe in myself and my reason for living has been taken away, what do you think I should do now, because I'm on my way to Suicide cliff.".
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you're still talking about the guy with two kids here?
the answer's in the question. it really would be sad if i had to point out to him that you have at least two reasons for living, reasons that are real and don't require faith.
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| Spoony wrote on Thu, 13 January 2011 03:18 |
like i said, some people may prefer a comforting lie to the cold truth. if the religion works for the guy and doesn't harm or try to harm others he's welcome to it; i hope it comforts him. have you actually read any of my comments on religion? it doesn't sound like it tbh
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I have, and I do read your posts. It's why I was surprised to see you try to steer Carrier down a different trail of thought when he mentioned something quite touching.
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are you even reading this thread? didn't you see the part where i pointed out that what supposedly saved his life was a hell of a lot stronger than he's been conned into thinking it was?
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The way I see your position on it is "If they keep that poison to themselves, you can shoot it up all day long. Just keep it away from the kids, and anyone else for that matter.". I hope the drug analogy was not lost.
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It's poorly phrased.
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Yeah I guess you're right. I can't argue with that and wouldn't want to.
I'm just saying that if there is no evidence of it, but they want to believe it and you start pointing out the fact that all the evidence points otherwise, in some situations you're not doing them any favours. Although you've displayed that you've grapsed what I am saying, so I am possibly rambling.
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In your new thread you suggested that if there's no God then there's no meaning to life and it's all a waste of time.
If anything on this forum would be a dangerous idea to plant in the head of the guy with two children, it'd be that.
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My entire point could probably be summed up with: "You don't have to fight every battle just because it's there, especially when your defense of "doing it for the right reasons" can sometimes fail you (or more importantly fail the person you're trying to "save" ("save" being a rather ironic word to choose I suppose)).".
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now you're rambling.
Unleash the Renerageâ„¢
Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
- noun
1. the inevitable criticism one receives after doing something awful
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| Re: don't ask don't tell [message #442576 is a reply to message #442575] |
Thu, 13 January 2011 03:53 |
Pyr0man1c
Messages: 186
Registered: April 2009
Karma: 0
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| Spoony wrote on Thu, 13 January 2011 04:30 |
In your new thread you suggested that if there's no God then there's no meaning to life and it's all a waste of time.
If anything on this forum would be a dangerous idea to plant in the head of the guy with two children, it'd be that.
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I believe the reason why he suggested that was so that somebody would be able to show why life isn't meaningless without god; stopping the dangerous idea being planted in peoples' heads
"Sapere Aude- Dare to be wise"
| AmunRa |
and its all this "drama" that will one day end renegade...
|
Quotes| v00d00 |
A question regarding RenGuard. Because it's a client/server application, what will stop the legions of people who cheat, and can crack apps, from reverse engineering it down to it's core protocol / encryption (which I'll assume it has), and duplicating it, so that they have their own client which responds to the server with all the correct info for an unpatched Renegade, but in fact is patched.
Personally, I think you should write a server-side only anti-cheat, which hooks the networking routines in Renegade. From there, using either the help of your staff who worked on creating Renegade, or from knowledge aquired while working with the network code in Renegade, create a system to monitor hit locations (did they REALLY hit, based on calculations by the anti-cheat (stopping BH)), how much damage are they claiming, vs how much damage their currently selected weapon really does, etc.
Then, add rate-of-fire checking, complete w/ lag tolerance (since lagged client will of course, upon delag, seem to fire faster, etc), and option to simply "edit" the incoming packets, to filter out the cheat (reduce damage, stop bullets, etc), or kick-ban the cheater (admins decision, based on anti cheat config).
Is it just me, or does that make more sense?
The flaw to Renegade of course, which is the core to the cheats, is that unlike most other games, Renegade lets the CLIENT decide hit locations, damage, RoF, etc. Vs others which say, "ok, the client fired their pistol along this trajectory. Did they hit something? How much damage did they do to that target if so. Report findings to clients".
My only concern, is that there will be alot more teams of people ripping apart the hard work of your small team, and undoing what you have done. Can you keep up writing fixes / completely rewriting the protocol to counter them once they have created their OWN complete anti-RenGuard client? If not, consider the server-side only method, and solve it once and for all, with the only version changes being to fix bugs, and not complete rewrites which will really piss admins off (if it takes this long for the initial, how long after the cheaters create their own client to counter it will your rewrite take to do?).
- v00d00
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| ELiT3FLyR |
ill say this again to all the TT people actually working on the patch. all you have to do is fix the bugs in the game. This is your role. dont get involved in a pointfix debate that you can never win (spoony has never managed to win one and hes a decent player) nor bother suggesting solutions for the faults in pointfix. just fix the damn bugs and you will all be remmebered as renegade heroes.
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[Updated on: Thu, 13 January 2011 03:54] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: don't ask don't tell [message #442580 is a reply to message #442575] |
Thu, 13 January 2011 04:54 |
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reborn
Messages: 3231
Registered: September 2004
Location: uk - london
Karma: 0
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| Spoony wrote on Thu, 13 January 2011 05:30 |
you're still talking about the guy with two kids here?
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Sorry, no. I was talking about Carrier.
| Spoony wrote on Thu, 13 January 2011 05:30 |
are you even reading this thread? didn't you see the part where i pointed out that what supposedly saved his life was a hell of a lot stronger than he's been conned into thinking it was?
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Yes I did read the thread. I saw you point it out, but you are assuming that it was based on fact. I'm sure many people care for Carrier, but suppose they didn't? Suppose people do not really care about him one way or the other... Faith in the belief that they do kept him from commiting suicide.
It wasn't faith in Jesus, it was faith in the belief that people cared for him. All the same, it was still faith.
| Spoony wrote on Thu, 13 January 2011 05:30 |
It's poorly phrased.
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Really? I thought you held religion in the same contempt as drugs. If not worse?
| Spoony wrote on Thu, 13 January 2011 05:30 |
In your new thread you suggested that if there's no God then there's no meaning to life and it's all a waste of time.
If anything on this forum would be a dangerous idea to plant in the head of the guy with two children, it'd be that.
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Yeah, you're right. I am routing for you in the other thread though. I know you'll come through, I have faith in it .
| Spoony wrote on Thu, 13 January 2011 05:30 |
now you're rambling.
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Me, ramble? Never! I do think you (and I mean you as in everyone, not you specifically) need to be careful in life when you challenge peoples core beliefs. Some people are more fragile than you realise.
[Updated on: Thu, 13 January 2011 04:54] Report message to a moderator |
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