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| Re: Question for Christians [message #390371 is a reply to message #390368] |
Fri, 12 June 2009 17:12   |
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Dover
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| Altzan wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 17:06 |
Christianity is blind faith. That doesn't mean I should give it up.
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Yes, it does. Blind faith is a bad thing. Always. Forever. No exceptions.
| DarkDemin wrote on Thu, 03 August 2006 19:19 |
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #390372 is a reply to message #390370] |
Fri, 12 June 2009 17:16 |
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Altzan
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| Spoony wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 19:08 |
you do realise, altzan, that 'atheist' is not actually a synonym for 'believes in the big bang theory and the theory of evolution'?
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Yes, i realize that.
| Spoony wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 19:08 |
Tell me, altzan, if you suddenly found out that you were created not by your parents in the usual way, but instead in a laboratory by some crazy mad scientist who also happened to have killed a shitload of the other humans he'd created, loosed plagues upon the world etc, and wrote a book demanding everybody obey him or suffer horrific punishment...
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Not sure what you're getting at here.
| Spoony wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 19:08 |
So let's compare the credibility of the two. What's more likely?
1. extremely primitive forms of life arose (we pretty much know how) and spent millions and millions of years evolving (we know how)
2. a superbeing with enormous magical powers, capable of making or ravaging planets, capable of creating life or snuffing it out on a whim, capable of seeing and knowing even the contents of a person's brain... appeared... uh, how, again? oh yeah, nobody knows.
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More like:
1. Random chance that an atmosphere capable of life waas formed
2. The atmosphere and planet were made via some sort of plan
I don't see Earth coming to be by accident, ie not planned by someone or something.
I cannot imagine how the clockwork of the universe can exist without a clockmaker. ~Voltaire
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #390373 is a reply to message #390371] |
Fri, 12 June 2009 17:17 |
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Altzan
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| Dover wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 19:12 |
Yes, it does. Blind faith is a bad thing. Always. Forever. No exceptions.
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Opinion. Most of Christianity's foundation is on things that cannot be proved. You think that's a good reason not to buy into it. I don't.
I cannot imagine how the clockwork of the universe can exist without a clockmaker. ~Voltaire
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #390376 is a reply to message #390372] |
Fri, 12 June 2009 17:33 |
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Spoony
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| Altzan wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 19:16 |
| Spoony wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 19:08 |
Tell me, altzan, if you suddenly found out that you were created not by your parents in the usual way, but instead in a laboratory by some crazy mad scientist who also happened to have killed a shitload of the other humans he'd created, loosed plagues upon the world etc, and wrote a book demanding everybody obey him or suffer horrific punishment...
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Not sure what you're getting at here.
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You're talking about the "point" of existence. This tends to be a big part of creationist argument; they say things like being part of God's masterplan is better than us just being more advanced animals whose only purpose on life is to reproduce and survive.
I expect this does make sense to the religious; I personally find it laughable. I like the fact we can choose for ourselves what we want our lives to be all about, so long as we maintain a healthy respect for others. It doesn't strike me as particularly appealing to think that we're all under the command of an unchallengeable dictator (and it surprises me how many Americans don't have a problem with that either).
But, hey, you're part of God's plan so you must do as he wants, right? The "point" of your existence is decided by the entity that created you. (although presumably you don't apply this logic to your parents after you reach a certain age...?)
Well, what if my hypothetical scenario was true? You found out that you were created by a deranged lunatic in a lab? If he created you, wouldn't that mean you were HIS serf? In my position I think I would want to see him arrested. By creationist logic, you're his servant.
What if we found out that the human race was created by an advanced race of aliens? (another form of creationism... it may seem like bizarre science fiction, but it seems marginally more credible than being created by a 'god') Would the "point" of our existence be what they ordered us to do? Freedom be damned!
| Altzan wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 19:16 |
More like:
1. Random chance that an atmosphere capable of life waas formed
2. The atmosphere and planet were made via some sort of plan
I don't see Earth coming to be by accident, ie not planned by someone or something.
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You completely miss my point. Either that or you're just trying to move the goalposts.
Your original statement was" evolution is less likely than being created by God. YOU'RE COMPARING THE WRONG TWO EVENTS. You're TRYING to compare the origin of life, so the actual two events are...
Origin of life from an evolutionary viewpoint: extremely primitive forms of life which took millions of years to develop, and we know quite a lot about how this could've happened.
Origin of life from a creationist viewpoint: the creation OF god. Not by god, OF god - and nobody's explained how that could have happened.
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #390379 is a reply to message #385426] |
Fri, 12 June 2009 17:44 |
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Altzan
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| Quote: |
I expect this does make sense to the religious; I personally find it laughable. I like the fact we can choose for ourselves what we want our lives to be all about, so long as we maintain a healthy respect for others. It doesn't strike me as particularly appealing to think that we're all under the command of an unchallengeable dictator (and it surprises me how many Americans don't have a problem with that either).
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You aren't listening to me either. God doesn't dictate us. We ARE free to 'choose for ourselves what we want our lives to be all about, so long as we maintain a healthy respect for others'. Just because he made us, doesn't mean we have no free will.
| Quote: |
Well, what if my hypothetical scenario was true? You found out that you were created by a deranged lunatic in a lab? If he created you, wouldn't that mean you were HIS serf? In my position I think I would want to see him arrested.
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Me as well. That doesn't compare to God though. Sounds like you're expressing your opinion that God is evil and deranged.
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Origin of life from a creationist viewpoint: the creation OF god. Not by god, OF god - and nobody's explained how that could have happened.
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Alright, I misunderstood you. So we don't know how God came to be. We don't know how these 'extremely primitive forms of life' came to be either.
Also, I don't completely identify with this quote, but I agree with its view.
| Stomper said |
I don't fool myself into thinking faith can ever be rational. How does that make me delusional?
There is no such thing as rational faith. That's an oxymoron. Of course you would rather debate someone willing to walk into that trap, and fool themselves into thinking they can "prove" anything about faith. But its not really a debate if you get to make all the rules and define the terms so that you never lose.
Why do you fear the possibility that there are parts of the human experience beyond the reach of empiricism? That's part of the beauty. I embrace that possibility -- and your only response is to dismiss me as a loon. Wow. THAT's a compelling argument.
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I cannot imagine how the clockwork of the universe can exist without a clockmaker. ~Voltaire
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #390380 is a reply to message #390373] |
Fri, 12 June 2009 17:55 |
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Dover
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| Altzan wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 17:17 |
| Dover wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 19:12 |
Yes, it does. Blind faith is a bad thing. Always. Forever. No exceptions.
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Opinion. Most of Christianity's foundation is on things that cannot be proved. You think that's a good reason not to buy into it. I don't.
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It's really the quantifier "blind" that I was focusing on. There are plenty of things that can't be proven. For example, I can't prove the sun will rise tomorrow, yet I choose to have faith that it will. This isn't blind faith; The sun has a fairly good track record of rising and setting on schedule.
To believe in something without any rhyme or reason (Or a garbage reason, like "I was raised this way"), that's blind faith. And that's a bad thing. Fact. Always. Forever. No exceptions.
| DarkDemin wrote on Thu, 03 August 2006 19:19 |
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #390382 is a reply to message #390380] |
Fri, 12 June 2009 17:58 |
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Altzan
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| Dover wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 19:55 |
| Altzan wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 17:17 |
| Dover wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 19:12 |
Yes, it does. Blind faith is a bad thing. Always. Forever. No exceptions.
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Opinion. Most of Christianity's foundation is on things that cannot be proved. You think that's a good reason not to buy into it. I don't.
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It's really the quantifier "blind" that I was focusing on. There are plenty of things that can't be proven. For example, I can't prove the sun will rise tomorrow, yet I choose to have faith that it will. This isn't blind faith; The sun has a fairly good track record of rising and setting on schedule.
To believe in something without any rhyme or reason (Or a garbage reason, like "I was raised this way"), that's blind faith. And that's a bad thing. Fact. Always. Forever. No exceptions.
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I still stand by my previous statement. I can't call God down to prove he exists. Yet I believe he does.
EDIT: NONE of the pictures posted in this thread make sense including mine. So don't take it seriously. It's a ridicule of the others.
I cannot imagine how the clockwork of the universe can exist without a clockmaker. ~Voltaire
[Updated on: Fri, 12 June 2009 18:07] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #390385 is a reply to message #390379] |
Fri, 12 June 2009 18:46 |
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Spoony
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| Altzan wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 19:44 |
You aren't listening to me either. God doesn't dictate us. We ARE free to 'choose for ourselves what we want our lives to be all about, so long as we maintain a healthy respect for others'. Just because he made us, doesn't mean we have no free will.
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Wtf are you smoking... we're free not to do what he says? For two thousand years up to and including the present day, we've been told the opposite; we must do what he says or we suffer the most horrific torment imaginable. This is also supposedly the punishment for not believing it. What a fucked-up definition of "free" you have. You may as well say you're free to commit mass murder. Sure you can do it, but you'll be punished.
| Altzan wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 19:44 |
| Quote: |
Well, what if my hypothetical scenario was true? You found out that you were created by a deranged lunatic in a lab? If he created you, wouldn't that mean you were HIS serf? In my position I think I would want to see him arrested.
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Me as well. That doesn't compare to God though. Sounds like you're expressing your opinion that God is evil and deranged.
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Doesn't it compare to God? Doesn't it compare to the creationist argument that we ought to do what God says because he created us? (that, of course, is really why creationists want to brainwash children in science classes).
No, my opinion is not "God is evil and deranged". My opinion is that this god of yours is fictional. But if the Bible is correct (the closest thing we have to "proof" that he exists, and I'm really doing the word "proof" an injustice there) then it does portray God as a cruel, unjust, murderous, dictatorial super-bully.
| Altzan wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 19:44 |
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Origin of life from a creationist viewpoint: the creation OF god. Not by god, OF god - and nobody's explained how that could have happened.
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Alright, I misunderstood you. So we don't know how God came to be. We don't know how these 'extremely primitive forms of life' came to be either.
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I really don't see how you can compare the two and keep a straight face. We actually know quite a bit about one, and it doesn't defy the rules of science as we understand them, AND it has the bonus of being possible to reproduce in a laboratory; we know absolutely N-O-T-H-I-N-G about the other.
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #390386 is a reply to message #390385] |
Fri, 12 June 2009 18:54 |
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Altzan
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| Spoony wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 20:46 |
Wtf are you smoking... we're free not to do what he says? For two thousand years up to and including the present day, we've been told the opposite; we must do what he says or we suffer the most horrific torment imaginable. This is also supposedly the punishment for not believing it. What a fucked-up definition of "free" you have. You may as well say you're free to commit mass murder. Sure you can do it, but you'll be punished.
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We're talking 2 different freedoms here. Freedom of choice, and freedom of authority.
Hell is a big reason many dislike Christianity. "He'd never do something like that if he loved us!" Why?
| Spoony wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 20:46 |
Doesn't it compare to God? Doesn't it compare to the creationist argument that we ought to do what God says because he created us? (that, of course, is really why creationists want to brainwash children in science classes).
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No.
And don't evolutionists brainwash children in science classes?
| Spoony wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 20:46 |
I really don't see how you can compare the two and keep a straight face. We actually know quite a bit about one, and it doesn't defy the rules of science as we understand them, AND it has the bonus of being possible to reproduce in a laboratory; we know absolutely N-O-T-H-I-N-G about the other.
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I don't see how 'science' can prove something that happened 'millions of years ago' just as much as anyone says they can't see how God created it all 4000 years ago.
Scientists say the Earth is millions of years old. One of my reasons I don't trust them.
I cannot imagine how the clockwork of the universe can exist without a clockmaker. ~Voltaire
[Updated on: Fri, 12 June 2009 18:55] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #390387 is a reply to message #390382] |
Fri, 12 June 2009 18:56 |
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Spoony
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| Altzan wrote on Sat, 13 June 2009 01:58 |
EDIT: NONE of the pictures posted in this thread make sense including mine. So don't take it seriously. It's a ridicule of the others.
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So_say_we_all's list is actually a pretty powerful argument, a graphic example of an argument I've made several times in religious debates (and so far it's never been countered).
There have 'been' hundreds or thousands of gods throughout history, if we define 'been' as 'was thought to exist. Let's say 1000. (I reckon it's probably more than that). Your typical atheist thinks all 1000 are fictional; the people who say they exist are either lying or crazy or just plain wrong (arguably the same as 'crazy'). You on the other hand, think 999 are fictional but one is the real thing. I really don't think the atheist in this scenario is the one with any explaining to do.
See, as far as Apollo or Thor or Odin or Zeus or Baal or Horus or the Emperor Hirohito or Kim Jong-Il are concerned, you're just as much an atheist as I am. With Yahweh, the rules change; you say it's all about faith. Sure you can't prove it but you believe it nonetheless, and anyone who doesn't believe it is a "hopeless case". You only apply this method of thought to one of the 1000; the other 999 can go fuck themselves.
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #390388 is a reply to message #385426] |
Fri, 12 June 2009 19:04 |
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Altzan
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Just how do you interpret my 'hopeless case' remark? I may have overstepped on my meaning if you take offense at it so much.
I cannot imagine how the clockwork of the universe can exist without a clockmaker. ~Voltaire
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #390389 is a reply to message #390386] |
Fri, 12 June 2009 19:10 |
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Spoony
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| Altzan wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 20:54 |
We're talking 2 different freedoms here. Freedom of choice, and freedom of authority.
Hell is a big reason many dislike Christianity. "He'd never do something like that if he loved us!" Why?
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I see quotes like this and I honestly feel sorry for you. It really is depressing to see the damage religion has done your brain. Not because it's retarded your understanding of the world, but more importantly, it's made you completely oblivious to any kind of moral clarity, any understanding of 'right and wrong'.
| Altzan wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 19:44 |
| Spoony wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 20:46 |
Doesn't it compare to God? Doesn't it compare to the creationist argument that we ought to do what God says because he created us?
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No.
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Why? What's the difference? If we must all do as God says because he created us, then the same would apply if you found out you were created by a modern-day Frankenstein or a race of aliens... or, gosh, your parents.
| Altzan wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 19:44 |
And don't evolutionists brainwash children in science classes?
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I can't speak from experience, because evolution wasn't taught in science classes at my schools. The ridiculous bible myths were, with the same certainty as what was taught in maths or geography or history, and the teacher never said "by the way, there's no proof at all for any of this, it does defy most of what we understand about the world and the universe and ourselves" - that, my friend, is brainwashing. If you tell people God did this and that as though it was a fact, without pointing out that there's zero proof for it, it's brainwashing.
| Altzan wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 19:44 |
| Spoony wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 20:46 |
I really don't see how you can compare the two and keep a straight face. We actually know quite a bit about one, and it doesn't defy the rules of science as we understand them, AND it has the bonus of being possible to reproduce in a laboratory; we know absolutely N-O-T-H-I-N-G about the other.
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I don't see how 'science' can prove something that happened 'millions of years ago' just as much as anyone says they can't see how God created it all 4000 years ago.
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Read the quote you were replying to, eh?
In one case it's a conclusion reached by studying a great deal of evidence, and we're finding new evidence supporting it ALL THE TIME. In the other case... we've got nothing. How the FUCK can you compare the two?
| Altzan wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 19:44 |
Scientists say the Earth is millions of years old. One of my reasons I don't trust them.
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Billions, actually. Add a few zeroes.
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #390391 is a reply to message #390388] |
Fri, 12 June 2009 19:17 |
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Spoony
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| Altzan wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 21:04 |
Just how do you interpret my 'hopeless case' remark? I may have overstepped on my meaning if you take offense at it so much.
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And I think you have misunderstood my rebuttals to it. I wasn't personally offended. I was just curious to know why you only apply your line of reasoning (i.e. it's a good thing that we can't prove it, you're an idiot if you want proof of it, etc) to one god, not all the others.
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #390392 is a reply to message #390389] |
Fri, 12 June 2009 19:19 |
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Altzan
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| Spoony wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 21:10 |
I see quotes like this and I honestly feel sorry for you. It really is depressing to see the damage religion has done your brain. Not because it's retarded your understanding of the world, but more importantly, it's made you completely oblivious to any kind of moral clarity, any understanding of 'right and wrong'.
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Probably the same feelings of pity I have for you and your binding to science.
| Spoony wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 21:10 |
Why? What's the difference? If we must all do as God says because he created us, then the same would apply if you found out you were created by a modern-day Frankenstein or a race of aliens... or, gosh, your parents.
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Let's put it this way: if God did create everything, etc etc, why wouldn't you obey? Because you don't agree with what you think his views are? See how far that goes. And if he didn't... don't worry about it.
| Spoony wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 21:10 |
In one case it's a conclusion reached by studying a great deal of evidence, and we're finding new evidence supporting it ALL THE TIME. In the other case... we've got nothing. How the FUCK can you compare the two?
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I can, because I don't believe in this so-called "evidence" and "conclusions" they come up with.
I cannot imagine how the clockwork of the universe can exist without a clockmaker. ~Voltaire
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #390393 is a reply to message #390391] |
Fri, 12 June 2009 19:20 |
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Altzan
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| Spoony wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 21:17 |
| Altzan wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 21:04 |
Just how do you interpret my 'hopeless case' remark? I may have overstepped on my meaning if you take offense at it so much.
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And I think you have misunderstood my rebuttals to it. I wasn't personally offended. I was just curious to know why you only apply your line of reasoning (i.e. it's a good thing that we can't prove it, you're an idiot if you want proof of it, etc) to one god, not all the others.
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Nah. My arguements about faith and proof apply to the others. My only point was the overflow of people trying to "prove" Christianity wrong.
I cannot imagine how the clockwork of the universe can exist without a clockmaker. ~Voltaire
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #390394 is a reply to message #390386] |
Fri, 12 June 2009 19:27 |
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| Altzan wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 20:54 |
And don't evolutionists brainwash children in science classes?
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The word 'brainwash' doesn't really apply, because evolution is being based upon factual, hard evidence. Plus, good teachers, and textbooks will always state that evolution is still a theory, although there is a wealth of evidence that helps to support it. You can actually go, and get hard evidence and find explanations.
In the case of religion, there is little in the way of hard evidence of there being a benevolent being. Instead, people have to believe that there actually is a God, based only on fairy tales, and dubious accounts, and a book that is older than Joan Rivers. If that isn't brainwashing, I'm not sure what is.
This applies to pretty much any religion, and not just Christianity in particular. Unfortunately, radicals, and fanatical regimes like to prey upon this 'suspension of disbelief.'
| Altzan wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 21:20 |
the overflow of people trying to "prove" Christianity wrong.
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Overflow? I actually think that there are more people on this planet that believe in God, than there are people that believe in evolution. That actually makes me a little concerned.
Edit: No offense to Joan Rivers. I think she's awesome.
Renegade:
| Aircraftkiller wrote on Fri, 10 January 2014 16:56 |
The only game where everyone competes to be an e-janitor.
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[Updated on: Fri, 12 June 2009 19:36] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #390395 is a reply to message #385426] |
Fri, 12 June 2009 19:38 |
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Altzan
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Apology for the exaggeration. Let me fix.
| Quote: |
the people trying to "prove" Christianity wrong.
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I cannot imagine how the clockwork of the universe can exist without a clockmaker. ~Voltaire
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #390398 is a reply to message #390392] |
Fri, 12 June 2009 20:31 |
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| Altzan wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 21:19 |
| Spoony wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 21:10 |
I see quotes like this and I honestly feel sorry for you. It really is depressing to see the damage religion has done your brain. Not because it's retarded your understanding of the world, but more importantly, it's made you completely oblivious to any kind of moral clarity, any understanding of 'right and wrong'.
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Probably the same feelings of pity I have for you and your binding to science.
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Uh, 'binding to science'? What does that even mean?
I get the feeling you only said that because I said it. NO U! Read my post again; I was speaking in moral terms, not in terms of which scientific ideas are true. If you can't see anything morally wrong with threatening people with the most horrific punishment imaginable for the 'crime' of disagreeing with you, then you really, REALLY don't know right from wrong, and I don't think religion ought to be absolved from inflicting this damage upon you.
| Altzan wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 21:19 |
Let's put it this way: if God did create everything, etc etc, why wouldn't you obey? Because you don't agree with what you think his views are? See how far that goes.
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It's certainly a good start. As I've said, the Bible portrays him as an unjust, merciless, cruel, bullying mass murderer. Maybe you haven't fully read it, or maybe you just think it's ok for him to behave in such an appalling manner as the book reports him as behaving. Even if that wasn't the case, I still think ideas like democracy, freedom of choice and so on are worth having, and my ideas on human rights are nearly two thousand years more advanced. For example, I think women ought to have the same rights in society as men. I think a person ought to be able to enjoy their sex life with other consenting adults. I think thoughtcrime is immoral. I think democracy is better than an unchallengeable dictatorship. I think freedom of speech trumps blasphemy laws. I think a child's right to a fair education trumps their parents' (or the state's) right to indoctrinate them.
| Altzan wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 21:19 |
And if he didn't... don't worry about it.
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We're back in "the gun I'm threatening you with isn't loaded" territory.
| Altzan wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 21:19 |
| Spoony wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 21:10 |
In one case it's a conclusion reached by studying a great deal of evidence, and we're finding new evidence supporting it ALL THE TIME. In the other case... we've got nothing. How the FUCK can you compare the two?
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I can, because I don't believe in this so-called "evidence" and "conclusions" they come up with.
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[/quote]
Right... so every time a fossil is found which is older than, say, 10000 years old... (we find these all the time)... it's fake, is it?
Every time geological, archaelogical or astronomical studies show the earth to be very much older than 10000 years old is fake, is it?
What've you got proving the other side? The Bible. Answer these questions, please.
Who wrote it?
When?
Why?
How did they know what to write? Is it possible they were lying, or crazy?
Did they see the events for themselves, and if so, is it possible they were mistaken?
Did they instead hear it from other people, and if so, is it possible they were lying, or crazy, or mistaken?
Finally, I'd still like to know how you define "repented". How did you "repent" of these things which, by your own statements, would've sent you to hell?
Unleash the Renerageâ„¢
Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
- noun
1. the inevitable criticism one receives after doing something awful
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #390399 is a reply to message #390398] |
Fri, 12 June 2009 20:51 |
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Altzan
Messages: 1586
Registered: September 2008
Location: Tennessee
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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| Spoony wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 22:31 |
I get the feeling you only said that because I said it. NO U! Read my post again; I was speaking in moral terms, not in terms of which scientific ideas are true. If you can't see anything morally wrong with threatening people with the most horrific punishment imaginable for the 'crime' of disagreeing with you, then you really, REALLY don't know right from wrong, and I don't think religion ought to be absolved from inflicting this damage upon you.
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The pity is irrelevant. You don't care what I think about you, I don't care what you think about me. It changes nothing.
| Spoony wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 22:31 |
We're back in "the gun I'm threatening you with isn't loaded" territory.
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Only if you believe there isn't a gun.
| Spoony wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 22:31 |
Right... so every time a fossil is found which is older than, say, 10000 years old... (we find these all the time)... it's fake, is it?
Every time geological, archaelogical or astronomical studies show the earth to be very much older than 10000 years old is fake, is it?
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The fossils, no. The ridiculous dates? Yes.
| Spoony wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 22:31 |
Who wrote it?
When?
Why?
How did they know what to write? Is it possible they were lying, or crazy?
Did they see the events for themselves, and if so, is it possible they were mistaken?
Did they instead hear it from other people, and if so, is it possible they were lying, or crazy, or mistaken?
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As if you care for the answers other than to ask for prove or debunk them.
Who: Many people. Paul, Matthew, John, etc.
When: Timespan of 2000-400 years ago.
How: Through God. (I can already hear snorts of derision here.)
I imagine they did witness the events.
And, no.
| Spoony wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 22:31 |
Finally, I'd still like to know how you define "repented". How did you "repent" of these things which, by your own statements, would've sent you to hell?
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If it's a private sin, a repentance through prayer.
If public, a repentance made in Church.
And of course, it has to be sincere, not hollow words.
I cannot imagine how the clockwork of the universe can exist without a clockmaker. ~Voltaire
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #390412 is a reply to message #390399] |
Fri, 12 June 2009 23:15 |
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AADude7
Messages: 148
Registered: September 2005
Karma: 0
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Recruit |
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| Altzan wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 19:51 |
| Spoony wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 22:31 |
Who wrote it?
When?
Why?
How did they know what to write? Is it possible they were lying, or crazy?
Did they see the events for themselves, and if so, is it possible they were mistaken?
Did they instead hear it from other people, and if so, is it possible they were lying, or crazy, or mistaken?
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As if you care for the answers other than to ask for prove or debunk them.
Who: Many people. Paul, Matthew, John, etc.
When: Timespan of 2000-400 years ago.
How: Through God. (I can already hear snorts of derision here.)
I imagine they did witness the events.
And, no.
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Okay, many people wrote the bible and they did it through God. Oh, and you imagine them to have witnessed the event. If I heard anyone today tell me they heard a message from God, not to mention witness events from God, and were told to write a book of it, I would call them lunatics. In fact, if anyone told me they heard a message from God at all I would think they were crazy.
I like how you use the word "imagine," as it reminds me of how the bible was written. I also love how these religions control people so easily; "don't do that, or this will happen to you" or "...whoever believes in Him shall not perish..."
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #390414 is a reply to message #390399] |
Fri, 12 June 2009 23:41 |
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Spoony
Messages: 3915
Registered: January 2006
Karma: 0
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General (3 Stars)
Tactics & Strategies Moderator |
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| Altzan wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 22:51 |
The pity is irrelevant. You don't care what I think about you, I don't care what you think about me. It changes nothing.
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If someone said I didn't know right from wrong, said I was evil... I would probably try to refute that. I say you don't know right from wrong based on the fact you can't see anything morally wrong with threatening someone with horrific punishments for the 'crime' of disagreeing with you. In your place I would certainly challenge that statement.
| Altzan wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 22:51 |
| Spoony wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 22:31 |
We're back in "the gun I'm threatening you with isn't loaded" territory.
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Only if you believe there isn't a gun.
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Really?
So I'll be spared hell for the crime of not being a Christian because I don't think hell exists? I don't think hell exists so I won't be going there?
It'd be nice if this was true, but it would directly contradict what Christianity have been threatening people like me with for nearly two thousand years, and still do.
It doesn't really improve your case to say: "ok, we've been threatening you with this appalling punishment for your non-crime... but we're not evil for doing this BECAUSE WE WERE LYING! HAH!"
| Altzan wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 22:51 |
| Spoony wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 22:31 |
Right... so every time a fossil is found which is older than, say, 10000 years old... (we find these all the time)... it's fake, is it?
Every time geological, archaelogical or astronomical studies show the earth to be very much older than 10000 years old is fake, is it?
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The fossils, no. The ridiculous dates? Yes.
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Here's a question for you. Read Genesis, the account of the creation of life. (Admittedly there are two and they do contradict each other somewhat, but either of these discrepant accounts will serve the purpose of my question).
There are three types of animal which appear absolutely nowhere.
- Dinosaurs
- Microscopic organisms (Bacteria etc)
- Australian marsupials (kangaroos and whatnot)
There is also a staggeringly simple explanation for why these are conspicuously not mentioned. Unfortunately it's very damaging to the bible's credibility. See if you can work out the reason why they're not mentioned.
I'll give you a clue: it's even more important when you notice the number of times the bible says god inflicted a plague on somebody.
| Altzan wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 22:51 |
As if you care for the answers other than to ask for prove or debunk them.
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Isn't that reason enough?
I want to understand the world, the universe, and ourselves. If religion has anything helpful to say, I'd like to hear it. So far, it hasn't. It seems painfully obvious that the bible was not dictated by some kind of superbeing; it was written by humans. At the time, their understanding of the world and the cosmos and the human race was pitifully limited. Some of the claims made in the bible are so ludicrous that I do need something to back them up. Earlier in this thread you said this makes me a 'hopeless case', yet when someone actually DOES prove something like the age of the earth, you seem to dismiss it without even giving it due consideration.
| Altzan wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 22:51 |
Who: Many people. Paul, Matthew, John, etc.
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Don't "etc" me. Complete list of everyone who wrote it, please, and who they were. This is hardly an unreasonable request.
| Altzan wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 22:51 |
When: Timespan of 2000-400 years ago.
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Pretty vague...
| Altzan wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 22:51 |
How: Through God. (I can already hear snorts of derision here.)
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Good, then you must have some conception of what a ridiculous assertion this is.
| Altzan wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 22:51 |
I imagine they did witness the events.
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So you don't know; they could've lied to you.
| Altzan wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 22:51 |
| Spoony wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 22:31 |
Finally, I'd still like to know how you define "repented". How did you "repent" of these things which, by your own statements, would've sent you to hell?
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If it's a private sin, a repentance through prayer.
If public, a repentance made in Church.
And of course, it has to be sincere, not hollow words.
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This is what I expected, which only reaffirms my earlier statement that you really don't know right from wrong. You say nothing of actually apologising to people you wronged, nor of trying to make amends for a situation you affected. No, never mind that - you just try to please your imaginary friend.
Unleash the Renerageâ„¢
Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
- noun
1. the inevitable criticism one receives after doing something awful
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #390503 is a reply to message #390382] |
Sat, 13 June 2009 11:40 |
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Dover
Messages: 2547
Registered: March 2006
Location: Monterey, California
Karma: 0
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General (2 Stars) |
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| Altzan wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 17:58 |
| Dover wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 19:55 |
| Altzan wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 17:17 |
| Dover wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 19:12 |
Yes, it does. Blind faith is a bad thing. Always. Forever. No exceptions.
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Opinion. Most of Christianity's foundation is on things that cannot be proved. You think that's a good reason not to buy into it. I don't.
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It's really the quantifier "blind" that I was focusing on. There are plenty of things that can't be proven. For example, I can't prove the sun will rise tomorrow, yet I choose to have faith that it will. This isn't blind faith; The sun has a fairly good track record of rising and setting on schedule.
To believe in something without any rhyme or reason (Or a garbage reason, like "I was raised this way"), that's blind faith. And that's a bad thing. Fact. Always. Forever. No exceptions.
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I still stand by my previous statement. I can't call God down to prove he exists. Yet I believe he does.
EDIT: NONE of the pictures posted in this thread make sense including mine. So don't take it seriously. It's a ridicule of the others.
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And this doesn't bother you? Not at all? The belief system you've been basing your arguement in this thread (And to a greater degree, most of your life) is just an accident of fate? You could have just as easily been born into a Taoist or Zoroastran family. I'm not asking for you to prove God's existance--you can no more do that than I "prove" (s)he doesn't. What I'm asking for is your reasoning on why yiu've chosen this faith. The reasons you've given so far are...less than good.
I resent that picture comment. Epicurus's words are not only a fair challenge, but one that is still standing almost two-thousand years later.
| DarkDemin wrote on Thu, 03 August 2006 19:19 |
Remember kids the internet is serious business.
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #390534 is a reply to message #385426] |
Sat, 13 June 2009 18:01 |
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Altzan
Messages: 1586
Registered: September 2008
Location: Tennessee
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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I'm following some anon advice.
| Quote: |
your never going to win this argument with those on here who create threads about Christians just to have something to argue about.
they want you to explain the exists of God in non religious terms. it would be like telling an atheist. why don't you explain yourself in the spiritual realm.
that's why I'm staying out of it. figure the more they start these topics if people just ignored them they'd stop.
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I'm glad for the opportunity to 'spar' with others whose views are different than mine. But I saw no reason to believe God doesn't exist, probably you all haven't seen a reason to believe he does.
I know he exists. And for those mouths opening to say "how?" - No. Nothing I say will affect you, that's plain and obvious.
I don't give a damn for the misinterpretations sure to follow this message - "hah, we atheists sure showed him" "he's crazy" "he's giving up" "we win" - because they don't matter. What matters is what happens after we pass on. And those statements will be brought up in Judgement.
And if there is no Judgement? No afterlife? ...then I'm good, as are you all. We'll all go to the same place.
And if there's a different god in power? ...we'll all go to the same place.
Thanks for the practice. Don't think I'm ignoring anything you said - especially Dover and Spoony - because I'm not. I've been brooding over this thread for days now. But I finally realized this is pointless - I don't have to prove myself to anyone. If I spread the word and it is rejected - oh well. Sorry that you don't agree, but if you don't, then I'll move on.
I hope that those who are looking for answers to the big questions eventually find them.
Bring on any rage, spam, or misninterpretations now. I'm done here. If you have any serious questions - not arguements - PM me.
I cannot imagine how the clockwork of the universe can exist without a clockmaker. ~Voltaire
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #390541 is a reply to message #390534] |
Sat, 13 June 2009 18:36 |
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Spoony
Messages: 3915
Registered: January 2006
Karma: 0
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General (3 Stars)
Tactics & Strategies Moderator |
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| Altzan wrote on Sat, 13 June 2009 21:01 |
I'm following some anon advice.
| Quote: |
your never going to win this argument with those on here who create threads about Christians just to have something to argue about.
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Just to have something to argue about? This ideology has continually tried to force itself upon all of us for nearly two thousand years, and still does; in my supposedly advanced nation religion still has a firm grip on society, politics (COMPLETELY undemocratically) and worst of all, education.
Why do you think it's generally Christianity and Islam I criticise? Why not Zoroastrianism, Buddhism etc, or the gods like Apollo, Horus etc? Because Christianity and Islam are the two which constantly try to bully their way into every aspect of life.
There's nothing wrong with challenging this oppression.
| Altzan wrote on Sat, 13 June 2009 21:01 |
they want you to explain the exists of God in non religious terms. it would be like telling an atheist. why don't you explain yourself in the spiritual realm.
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No, it absolutely would not.
"Non religious terms" in this context is essentially synonymous with "terms which actually make some kind of sense". The religious keep saying how the usual rules of logic and science don't apply here. How convenient. You say you're above the rules that're applied to everything else, and that's it, game over. The sad part is, every atheist knows that if some palpable proof of, say, Jesus' life and divinity finally showed up, Christians would raise the roof.
| Altzan wrote on Sat, 13 June 2009 21:01 |
that's why I'm staying out of it. figure the more they start these topics if people just ignored them they'd stop.
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When Christianity (and Islam) has the decency to keep itself to itself for the first time in history, I probably won't be bothered enough to challenge it.
| Altzan wrote on Sat, 13 June 2009 21:01 |
I'm glad for the opportunity to 'spar' with others whose views are different than mine. But I saw no reason to believe God doesn't exist
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...and once again we're back to my question: what reason do you have to believe Horus or Apollo or Zeus or Shiva don't exist? Furthermore, what reason do you have to believe that the "last revelation" (Islam) didn't actually come from your god? You'd better be sure about that, because if it genuinely did come from your god - as it claims to - one would think you should pay attention.
| Altzan wrote on Sat, 13 June 2009 21:01 |
I know he exists. And for those mouths opening to say "how?" - No. Nothing I say will affect you, that's plain and obvious.
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You say this as if it says something about us, rather than you. We're back in 'hopeless case' territory, I think.
| Altzan wrote on Sat, 13 June 2009 21:01 |
I don't give a damn for the misinterpretations sure to follow this message - "hah, we atheists sure showed him" "he's crazy" "he's giving up" "we win" - because they don't matter. What matters is what happens after we pass on. And those statements will be brought up in Judgement.
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Do you give a damn for my statements that you simply don't know right from wrong? You haven't exactly debunked that by saying "all that matters is the afterlife"...
| Altzan wrote on Sat, 13 June 2009 21:01 |
And if there is no Judgement? No afterlife? ...then I'm good, as are you all. We'll all go to the same place.
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Will you be 'good'? You'll have missed a great deal of opportunity. All that time praying when you could've been doing something either productive or enjoyable. All those prohibitions against non-crimes.
| Altzan wrote on Sat, 13 June 2009 21:01 |
And if there's a different god in power? ...we'll all go to the same place.
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Well done on finally noticing this part, but you seem oddly unmoved by it.
| Altzan wrote on Sat, 13 June 2009 21:01 |
I hope that those who are looking for answers to the big questions eventually find them.
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Me too, though it'd be nice if scientific study wasn't opposed by religion at almost every turn.
Unleash the Renerageâ„¢
Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
- noun
1. the inevitable criticism one receives after doing something awful
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