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| Re: Question for Christians [message #385567 is a reply to message #385426] |
Mon, 11 May 2009 16:28   |
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R315r4z0r
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Perhaps we are using the wrong word. Instead of "believing" we should instead be using "accepting."
We don't have to 'believe' he died for our sins, because when you believe something or not, there is always an absolute truth behind the matter and it is always the same regardless of what you think.
If we replace the word 'believe' with 'accept,' then it makes more sense. Basically, you are in charge of your own sins. You can't let someone else manage them. Jesus dying for your sins supposedly gives you a way to 'renew' yourself. However, that 'renewal' wont happen without your permission. Therefore, you must 'accept' his sacrifice and allow your sins to be forgiven. If you don't accept his sacrifice as a renewal for your sins, then your sins wont be renewed.
Just because something is available, doesn't necessarily mean that you will automatically receive it. You have to allow yourself to obtain it, or else you wont ever get it.
Does that make sense?
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #385588 is a reply to message #385567] |
Mon, 11 May 2009 18:01 |
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Dover
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| R315r4z0r wrote on Mon, 11 May 2009 16:28 |
Perhaps we are using the wrong word. Instead of "believing" we should instead be using "accepting."
We don't have to 'believe' he died for our sins, because when you believe something or not, there is always an absolute truth behind the matter and it is always the same regardless of what you think.
If we replace the word 'believe' with 'accept,' then it makes more sense. Basically, you are in charge of your own sins. You can't let someone else manage them. Jesus dying for your sins supposedly gives you a way to 'renew' yourself. However, that 'renewal' wont happen without your permission. Therefore, you must 'accept' his sacrifice and allow your sins to be forgiven. If you don't accept his sacrifice as a renewal for your sins, then your sins wont be renewed.
Just because something is available, doesn't necessarily mean that you will automatically receive it. You have to allow yourself to obtain it, or else you wont ever get it.
Does that make sense?
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...No. Not at all. I don't have to "accept" a loan from my parents to pay off student loans if they make the payment for me. I can throw the money away, or actively do something to disrupt the process if I really want to stop it, but I can't passively reject the favor and affect the outcome.
Assuming Jesus died for my sins, my opinion on it doesn't sway the situation one way or the other. It happened several thousand years ago. It's done. How I feel about it isn't going to change it.
| DarkDemin wrote on Thu, 03 August 2006 19:19 |
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #385601 is a reply to message #385589] |
Mon, 11 May 2009 19:29 |
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Dover
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| R315r4z0r wrote on Mon, 11 May 2009 18:02 |
Yes you can. You can say, "Mom, dad, I don't want your money, I will pay for it myself. Thanks anyway."
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Right, but then it's on her to actually follow through with my wishes and NOT do whatever it she's going to do (Which is something Jesus can't do, since he already did it).
| DarkDemin wrote on Thu, 03 August 2006 19:19 |
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #385602 is a reply to message #385567] |
Mon, 11 May 2009 19:34 |
DAUGHTER DIVER
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| R315r4z0r wrote on Mon, 11 May 2009 16:28 |
Perhaps we are using the wrong word. Instead of "believing" we should instead be using "accepting."
We don't have to 'believe' he died for our sins, because when you believe something or not, there is always an absolute truth behind the matter and it is always the same regardless of what you think.
If we replace the word 'believe' with 'accept,' then it makes more sense. Basically, you are in charge of your own sins. You can't let someone else manage them. Jesus dying for your sins supposedly gives you a way to 'renew' yourself. However, that 'renewal' wont happen without your permission. Therefore, you must 'accept' his sacrifice and allow your sins to be forgiven. If you don't accept his sacrifice as a renewal for your sins, then your sins wont be renewed.
Just because something is available, doesn't necessarily mean that you will automatically receive it. You have to allow yourself to obtain it, or else you wont ever get it.
Does that make sense?
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when you dead you will go to hell and get punishment for your sin you make by your life
you will live in hell and get punishment until you don't have sin then you can have freedom
but someone who make sin abound will get eternal punishment and never get freedom
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[Updated on: Tue, 12 May 2009 00:23] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #385719 is a reply to message #385601] |
Tue, 12 May 2009 14:14 |
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R315r4z0r
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| Dover wrote on Mon, 11 May 2009 22:29 |
| R315r4z0r wrote on Mon, 11 May 2009 18:02 |
Yes you can. You can say, "Mom, dad, I don't want your money, I will pay for it myself. Thanks anyway."
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Right, but then it's on her to actually follow through with my wishes and NOT do whatever it she's going to do (Which is something Jesus can't do, since he already did it).
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Yes, exactly.
But anyway, I don't understand what your tuition costs have to do with renewing one's sins..
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #385726 is a reply to message #385719] |
Tue, 12 May 2009 14:42 |
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Dover
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| R315r4z0r wrote on Tue, 12 May 2009 14:14 |
| Dover wrote on Mon, 11 May 2009 22:29 |
| R315r4z0r wrote on Mon, 11 May 2009 18:02 |
Yes you can. You can say, "Mom, dad, I don't want your money, I will pay for it myself. Thanks anyway."
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Right, but then it's on her to actually follow through with my wishes and NOT do whatever it she's going to do (Which is something Jesus can't do, since he already did it).
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Yes, exactly.
But anyway, I don't understand what your tuition costs have to do with renewing one's sins..
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Nothing. I'm using the act of paying for one's debt as a metaphor for paying for one's sins.
| DarkDemin wrote on Thu, 03 August 2006 19:19 |
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #385739 is a reply to message #385431] |
Tue, 12 May 2009 16:52 |
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[NE]Fobby[GEN]
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| cnc95fan wrote on Sun, 10 May 2009 16:54 |
I'm getting sick of all these "questions for Christians"
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I'm not even a Christian, and yet I'm also getting sick of it. People should stop shoving their beliefs down other peoples' throats; that includes Christians, Jews, Atheists, and any other body that would want to do something as silly as that.
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #385742 is a reply to message #385426] |
Tue, 12 May 2009 17:57 |
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Altzan
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While possible, it is very unlikely that someone will be successful in changing someone else's beliefs via a gaming forum where nobody knows who you really are.
Threads like these should probably stop, since nobody has really changed anything except let be known where they stand...
I cannot imagine how the clockwork of the universe can exist without a clockmaker. ~Voltaire
[Updated on: Tue, 12 May 2009 17:58] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #385750 is a reply to message #385726] |
Tue, 12 May 2009 18:59 |
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R315r4z0r
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| Dover wrote on Tue, 12 May 2009 17:42 |
Nothing. I'm using the act of paying for one's debt as a metaphor for paying for one's sins.
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Well, the metaphor doesn't work.
I only said that "one is in control of their own sins." Not "One is in control of their own sins, like they are with everything else in their life."
In this case, you are obligated to either accept or deny that he died for your sins. If you accept it, then you accept forgiveness and get your sins renewed. If you deny, than you just go on living like you are.
It has nothing to do with anything else.
I mean, if someone said "I have a cold" would you automatically assume they were going to die simply because the fact that there are other diseases out there that are fatal?
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Fobby[GEN] wrote on Tue, 12 May 2009 19:52]| cnc95fan wrote on Sun, 10 May 2009 16:54 |
I'm getting sick of all these "questions for Christians"
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I'm not even a Christian, and yet I'm also getting sick of it. People should stop shoving their beliefs down other peoples' throats; that includes Christians, Jews, Atheists, and any other body that would want to do something as silly as that.
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| Altzan wrote on Tue, 12 May 2009 20:57 |
While possible, it is very unlikely that someone will be successful in changing someone else's beliefs via a gaming forum where nobody knows who you really are.
Threads like these should probably stop, since nobody has really changed anything except let be known where they stand...
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Take note at what I have said in this thread regarding the topic.
Now realize that I, in fact, don't believe in any of the nonsense I've been saying.
Therefore, both your post's accusations of people in this thread are wrong.
[Updated on: Tue, 12 May 2009 19:01] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #385756 is a reply to message #385742] |
Tue, 12 May 2009 20:21 |
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Altzan
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Is this what you're talking about?
| Altzan wrote on Tue, 12 May 2009 19:57 |
since nobody has really changed anything except let be known where they stand...
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Maybe I was too hasty in attaching people's thoughts here to their beliefs. You're not actually attaching yourself to either side, just simply joinign in the discussion. (That makes you a good debator, R315r4z0r...) 
Still, if anyone's opinion has changed in this thread, I have yet to see it.
It is a good thing to hear the opposing point of view, though. It allows for a good comparison. For instance, if a bunch of Jehovah's Witnesses came to my door, I would know what was right and wrong about their beliefs but I would have a hard time explaining it.
I am getting experience in how to respond to such questions, although it's source being a gaming forum is still kind of odd to me.
I cannot imagine how the clockwork of the universe can exist without a clockmaker. ~Voltaire
[Updated on: Tue, 12 May 2009 20:27] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #385759 is a reply to message #385426] |
Tue, 12 May 2009 20:47 |
Muad Dib15
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My brother has "turned into an atheist". However, when asked whyhe just says, "You wouldn't understand." Idiot hasn't realized that I have had my beliefs tested for about 3 years now on a monthly, sometimes weekly and daily basis. I'm pretty sure I'd understand why as you guys have caused me to question sometimes. Thanks, you have helped strengthen my faith. idiot brother.
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #385768 is a reply to message #385750] |
Tue, 12 May 2009 22:05 |
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Dover
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| R315r4z0r wrote on Tue, 12 May 2009 18:59 |
In this case, you are obligated to either accept or deny that he died for your sins. If you accept it, then you accept forgiveness and get your sins renewed. If you deny, than you just go on living like you are.
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But that wouldn't affect the outcome, because Jesus already did his thing (dying). The only way that metaphor works is if you believe Jesus is alive in some form deciding who gets to benefit from his sacrifice, which brings is back to "Idk it's faith LOL".
Also, if that was the case, why did he need to die in the first place? What is the significance of the act if it's the acceptance that matters?
| R315r4z0r wrote on Tue, 12 May 2009 18:59 |
I mean, if someone said "I have a cold" would you automatically assume they were going to die simply because the fact that there are other diseases out there that are fatal?
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...What?
| DarkDemin wrote on Thu, 03 August 2006 19:19 |
Remember kids the internet is serious business.
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[Updated on: Tue, 12 May 2009 22:08] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #385792 is a reply to message #385739] |
Wed, 13 May 2009 04:00 |
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Spoony
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| [NE |
Fobby[GEN] wrote on Tue, 12 May 2009 18:52]I'm not even a Christian, and yet I'm also getting sick of it. People should stop shoving their beliefs down other peoples' throats; that includes Christians, Jews, Atheists, and any other body that would want to do something as silly as that.
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I don't really desire to convert anyone else to atheism, but as long as religion has undemocratically earned power over people like me (and in my country, it absolutely does) I reserve the right to challenge it and point out what a big crock of shit it all is.
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #385895 is a reply to message #385768] |
Wed, 13 May 2009 17:40 |
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R315r4z0r
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| Dover wrote on Wed, 13 May 2009 01:05 |
| R315r4z0r wrote on Tue, 12 May 2009 18:59 |
In this case, you are obligated to either accept or deny that he died for your sins. If you accept it, then you accept forgiveness and get your sins renewed. If you deny, than you just go on living like you are.
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But that wouldn't affect the outcome, because Jesus already did his thing (dying). The only way that metaphor works is if you believe Jesus is alive in some form deciding who gets to benefit from his sacrifice, which brings is back to "Idk it's faith LOL".
Also, if that was the case, why did he need to die in the first place? What is the significance of the act if it's the acceptance that matters?
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You're just not getting it. You're thinking in black in white.
This isn't comparable to other situations. That's what I was getting at with the cold example. Just because there are other things in this world that exist that don't work the same way as this situation, doesn't make this situation wrong. It just makes it different.
It's just how it is. Do you argue why there are certain rules in different games? Like "Why do I have to put red cards on black cards in solitaire?" It's like that because it's like that, don't try comparing it to anything else saying "Well, since this is like this, obviously that can't be right."
Basic Summery:
-His death is the price he pays to have everyone's sins forgiven.
-You are ultimately in charge of your own sins, so you're sins wont be forgiven unless you give your consent to them being so.
-By accepting the fact that his death gives you forgiveness, you receive that forgiveness.
-By denying it, you don't receive the forgiveness.
Bottom line, if you want to accept his offer to renew your sins, you believe in him. That's about as simple as it gets.
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #385902 is a reply to message #385895] |
Wed, 13 May 2009 18:11 |
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Dover
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| R315r4z0r wrote on Wed, 13 May 2009 17:40 |
| Dover wrote on Wed, 13 May 2009 01:05 |
| R315r4z0r wrote on Tue, 12 May 2009 18:59 |
In this case, you are obligated to either accept or deny that he died for your sins. If you accept it, then you accept forgiveness and get your sins renewed. If you deny, than you just go on living like you are.
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But that wouldn't affect the outcome, because Jesus already did his thing (dying). The only way that metaphor works is if you believe Jesus is alive in some form deciding who gets to benefit from his sacrifice, which brings is back to "Idk it's faith LOL".
Also, if that was the case, why did he need to die in the first place? What is the significance of the act if it's the acceptance that matters?
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You're just not getting it. You're thinking in black in white.
This isn't comparable to other situations. That's what I was getting at with the cold example. Just because there are other things in this world that exist that don't work the same way as this situation, doesn't make this situation wrong. It just makes it different.
It's just how it is. Do you argue why there are certain rules in different games? Like "Why do I have to put red cards on black cards in solitaire?" It's like that because it's like that, don't try comparing it to anything else saying "Well, since this is like this, obviously that can't be right."
Basic Summery:
-His death is the price he pays to have everyone's sins forgiven.
-You are ultimately in charge of your own sins, so you're sins wont be forgiven unless you give your consent to them being so.
-By accepting the fact that his death gives you forgiveness, you receive that forgiveness.
-By denying it, you don't receive the forgiveness.
Bottom line, if you want to accept his offer to renew your sins, you believe in him. That's about as simple as it gets.
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But it's NOT different, at least not suitably different. Logic applies to everything, all the time, forever. No exceptions. To say "These are the rules, accept them as such and don't question them" is just a wordier variation on "idk it's faith LOL!!1!". Anything else is a cheap(er) cop-out.
Bottom line: Just because that's what it says it some book doesn't make it make any more sense.
| DarkDemin wrote on Thu, 03 August 2006 19:19 |
Remember kids the internet is serious business.
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #385912 is a reply to message #385895] |
Wed, 13 May 2009 20:11 |
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| R315r4z0r wrote on Wed, 13 May 2009 20:40 |
-You are ultimately in charge of your own sins, so you're sins wont be forgiven unless you give your consent to them being so.
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How in the fuck do you figure that? If I don't give my parents consent to pay for my loan fees, but they do it anyway, how does that stop my fees from being paid? They're paid regardless of what I want/say/do. If someone pays for your debt, the debt is paid.
You can say, "fuck you, Jesus, I don't need your paying for my sins", but if he already DID die for your sins, that doesn't change a fucking thing.
Libertarian Party | The King's Throne | The Soda Shop
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #386946 is a reply to message #386784] |
Tue, 19 May 2009 06:19 |
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Altzan
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| MasterEvolution wrote on Mon, 18 May 2009 11:53 |
I don't think that these forums are the best place to talk about religion.
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I'd have to agree.
I cannot imagine how the clockwork of the universe can exist without a clockmaker. ~Voltaire
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #386948 is a reply to message #386946] |
Tue, 19 May 2009 06:36 |
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Spoony
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I've always found them adequate for the purpose.
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #387613 is a reply to message #385426] |
Sat, 23 May 2009 18:27 |
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R315r4z0r
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You guys are being thick headed. Think for a second, it's not a hard concept to understand.
I don't believe it and yet it makes perfect sense.
And no, Dover, you're wrong. Logic dictates what's supposed to happen (or what has happened) if a specific even occurs ("If this is like that, then logically this will happen.")
It's not a way to uniform every single choice for every different problem out there to have the same or similar answers/results.
If you haven't noticed, religion isn't logical. It's believe or don't believe. That's it. There is no reasoning why, there is no connecting the dots between events. It simply is what it is.
As for the money thing. Even if it didn't end up the way you wanted, that doesn't deter from the idea that you are ultimately in charge of things you want and don't want. (For example, you obviously wouldn't want to be shot, but that doesn't mean you wont be if you run into someone with a gun.)
However, more over, accepting/denying money is of a totally different situation than what we are speaking of. Maybe if I simplify the idea I'm trying to express by combining it with what you seem to be stuck on, it will be easier to understand.
Let's say for example, your parents come into enough money to pay off your tuition costs. However, they ask you and give you the option of if you want them to pay it for you or if you want to pay it for yourself. Thinking about it this way is the same thing I'm trying to say with this whole Jesus thing.
Jesus has come into the power to renew your sins. However, he leaves the choice up to you as to if you want them renewed or not. Since you obviously can't just walk up to him and ask him to renew your sins, you simply either believe he can do it or deny he can do it.
That's it. You guys are thinking into it way too much. It's just:
Jesus: Do you want your sins renewed?
Person1: Yes
Jesus: Ok, then all you have to do is believe in me.
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #387621 is a reply to message #385426] |
Sat, 23 May 2009 21:45 |
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You're right... if Christianity was simply about the BELIEF in Christ, but that's not it. The debt was paid by Christ's dying on the cross. The belief being needed is what's in question. Again, going back to the quote in my first post... if it's the belief, then Christ's dying on the cross is a psychological ploy. If his death on the cross was the payment, then there's no need for belief.
Libertarian Party | The King's Throne | The Soda Shop
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #387677 is a reply to message #385426] |
Sun, 24 May 2009 11:07 |
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R315r4z0r
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We are just going in circles. It's as if there is some sort of psychological block that makes it impossible to understand what I'm saying.. You asked a question, and I'm trying my best to help you obtain an answer. But all I'm getting from you people are insults and hostility. I'm not doing anything to offend anyone, I'm just trying to aid in the understanding of the idea this topic was made to discuss, so why is everyone hating on me? It's as if no one wants to know what the answer to what they are asking. "What? You're trying to talk on topic? What are you? A moron?"
Let me make one thing clear:
What I've been saying in this thread is all conjecture from my own personal behalf about what I believe the idea behind what's in question means. I, in no way, believe it or chose to believe it, I'm simply trying to understand what is trying to be conveyed.
Now, as for the topic. His death ALONE isn't the cost! It's his death and your belief. It's not one or the other, its both!
By him dying, he came into power to forgive your sins. That's all that amounts to. Just because he has that power, doesn't mean he will use it. But because he has that power, and is willing to use it, he is giving people the choice of if they want that power used on them or not.
If they want the power used on them, they have to believe in him. That's the cost of forgiveness.
If they don't want the power used on them, then they don't have to do anything.
His death is not the price he payed to renew your sins, its the price he payed to gain the ability to do so.
[Updated on: Sun, 24 May 2009 11:16] Report message to a moderator |
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