Home » General Discussions » Heated Discussions and Debates » hope none of you are them
( ) 5 Votes
| Re: hope none of you are them [message #208701 is a reply to message #208698] |
Tue, 18 July 2006 16:48   |
KIRBY-098
Messages: 338
Registered: July 2006
Karma: 0
|
Recruit |
|
|
| Sniper_De7 wrote on Tue, 18 July 2006 19:44 |
| mrpirate wrote on Tue, 18 July 2006 18:26 |
^ Yikes.
|
|
Ah yes. The mass mindset sets in. It's no wonder no one in the atheist community takes us seriously. 99 percent of professed believers aren't even sure the bible is true.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: hope none of you are them [message #208706 is a reply to message #207824] |
Tue, 18 July 2006 17:03 |
 |
Crimson
Messages: 7427
Registered: February 2003
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Karma: 0
|
General (5 Stars)
ADMINISTRATOR |
|
|
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's law. I have learned a great deal from you, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other specific laws and how to best follow them.
* When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. How should I deal with this?
* I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as it suggests in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
* I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
* Lev. 25:44 states that I may buy slaves from the nations that are around us. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans but not Canadians. Can you clarify?
* I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?
* A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 10:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?
* Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?
I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.
[From godlessgeeks.com]
I'm the bawss.
|
|
|
|
| Re: hope none of you are them [message #208709 is a reply to message #208703] |
Tue, 18 July 2006 17:11 |
 |
warranto
Messages: 2584
Registered: February 2003
Location: Alberta, Canada
Karma: 0
|
General (2 Stars) |
|
|
| KIRBY-098 wrote on Tue, 18 July 2006 17:55 |
What good is a lesson that doesn't make you think?
|
My point exactly. Being told everything is to be taken litterally, word for word offers nothing to make you think.
| Quote: |
All of Crimsons latest post
|
Hence the reason for not taking things word-for-word literally.
edit:
To show some of the faults in taking it literally.
1. The odour may be "pleasing" but that does't mean you have to do it. Or, perhaps it simply refers to giving up something that is expensive?
2. Slavery as we understand it today is completely different that it was then. As well, simply because it mentions if it were do happen, doesn't mean it should.
3. what does "contact" refer to? Simple touching, or does it mean in a familier/sexual nature?
4. Does death mean in the mortal sense? Could it have a different meaning? After all, "working yourself to death" doesn't actually mean you work until you physically die.
5. No where in that does it distinguish between the "holy and the profane, and between the unclean and the clean", so if your going to reference that, you may wish to explain further.
6. Lev 21:20 does not state that, try reading what is around the passages, as it gives hints as to what it is referring to.
[Updated on: Tue, 18 July 2006 17:23] Report message to a moderator |
|
|
|
| Re: hope none of you are them [message #208710 is a reply to message #208706] |
Tue, 18 July 2006 17:12 |
KIRBY-098
Messages: 338
Registered: July 2006
Karma: 0
|
Recruit |
|
|
Easy.
The old law passed away when christ was made the ultimate sacrifice.
Ephesians 2
14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
Romans7
6But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
There are multiple covenants God made with humans to try to achieve a relationship with man. Man violated each and every one of them.
God provided a final solution by taking the initiative to oslve the problem knowing we were a hopeless mess.
Jesus was that answer. He died as a perfect sacrifice to atone once and for all for all sins. No longer would man need to constantly sacrifice to atone. All that is required to be atoned for through the death of christ is:
Acts 2:38
38Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call."
40With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation." 41Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.
[Updated on: Tue, 18 July 2006 17:21] Report message to a moderator |
|
|
|
| Re: hope none of you are them [message #208711 is a reply to message #208687] |
Tue, 18 July 2006 17:13 |
|
|
| KIRBY-098 wrote on Tue, 18 July 2006 19:19 |
There may be metaphors parables figurative language and the like used as teaching instruments (parable of the seeds for example), but what's in there belongs in there, and is inerrant.
|
I have to agree. It's inerrant, but my whole point is that it IS up for interpretation. I believe it was written in symbolism for the people of the time to understand. It's just for us to decypher it.
Libertarian Party | The King's Throne | The Soda Shop
|
|
|
|
| Re: hope none of you are them [message #208713 is a reply to message #208711] |
Tue, 18 July 2006 17:16 |
KIRBY-098
Messages: 338
Registered: July 2006
Karma: 0
|
Recruit |
|
|
| j_ball430 wrote on Tue, 18 July 2006 19:13 |
| KIRBY-098 wrote on Tue, 18 July 2006 19:19 |
There may be metaphors parables figurative language and the like used as teaching instruments (parable of the seeds for example), but what's in there belongs in there, and is inerrant.
|
I have to agree. It's inerrant, but my whole point is that it IS up for interpretation. I believe it was written in symbolism for the people of the time to understand. It's just for us to decypher it.
|
Certainly.
We need only be united on the basics tenets of faith as mandated by christ. Everything else is "disputable matters" as paul puts it.
Romans 14
The Weak and the Strong
1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
|
|
|
|
| Re: hope none of you are them [message #208716 is a reply to message #208706] |
Tue, 18 July 2006 17:27 |
|
|
| Crimson wrote on Tue, 18 July 2006 20:03 |
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's law. I have learned a great deal from you, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other specific laws and how to best follow them.
* When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. How should I deal with this?
* I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as it suggests in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
* I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
* Lev. 25:44 states that I may buy slaves from the nations that are around us. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans but not Canadians. Can you clarify?
* I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?
* A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 10:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?
* Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?
I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.
|
Two words: Old covenant (or Old Testament)
Either way, that's God's old promise to Isreal and its 12 tribes. However, as Kirby stated, that was changed with Christ's crucifixion and resurrection. The new covenant was then in place. Jesus is our Lamb.
Libertarian Party | The King's Throne | The Soda Shop
|
|
|
|
| Re: hope none of you are them [message #208717 is a reply to message #208681] |
Tue, 18 July 2006 17:27 |
 |
NeoSaber
Messages: 336
Registered: February 2003
Karma: 0
|
Recruit |
|
|
| Crimson wrote on Tue, 18 July 2006 18:24 |
I'm not sure how I can "betray my ignorance" but you are missing the point. The funny part is that I know you are smarter than that, so you're just picking apart my words because you can't refute the actual argument. Care to try again? Let me make this really really clear for you so that you can comprehend, ok? You do not believe in the ancient Greek gods. You know that Helios doesn't cart the sun across the sky. You know that Thor doesn't throw lightning bolts down. You disbelieve in all these other gods that have been created by man. I just disbelieve in a little bit more than you disbelieve. Is that clear enough for you? I hope I didn't leave any other lingual oddities in there for you to pounce on to dodge the issue.
|
The existance, or lack of existance, of Helios, Thor, Baal, etc. makes no difference to me. Sure I don't think Helios drags the sun across the sky, but even if he did, he wouldn't be worthy of my praise. A 'god' is the concept of a being with greater power than a human. The concept of 'God' is that of the Creator, that which always existed and made all that was created. A 'god' is finite. A 'God' is infinite.
You've asked us to think about why we don't believe in the ancient greek gods. I don't worship them because even if they exist, they are finite like I am. They have their Creator, just like me. They wouldn't be any more worthy of praise than I am. I give reverence to God because I give praise to the Creator. All other things are His creation.
The more I question if a Creator exists, the more certain I am that one does. Everything I know, everything I learn, every opinion I hear, and every challenge to it I've faced ultimately points me back to that premise. That's why I don't worship ancient Greek gods, or others like them. They aren't the Creator, just more created. It's not a 'my god is better than your god' argument. It's an issue of what makes something worthy of praise to begin with. Nothing about 'the gods' makes them worth a second thought. 'God' is another story entirely.
NeoSaber
Renegade Map Maker at CnC Source
Animator/Compiler/Level Editor/Object Rigger/Programmer for Red Alert: A Path Beyond
|
|
|
|
| Re: hope none of you are them [message #208718 is a reply to message #208717] |
Tue, 18 July 2006 17:30 |
KIRBY-098
Messages: 338
Registered: July 2006
Karma: 0
|
Recruit |
|
|
Well, there's that , and the fact that there's a tourist center on top of mt olympus.
I suppose the best evidence for me is that 12 men were executed, tortured, banished and persecuted for thier faith in a man they SAW and witnessed ascending after resurection.
What odds are there that all twelve upon being tortured wouldn't give up and renounce a charlatan after nails were driven into thier bodies and thier bones crushed?
They belived he existed, and that thier deaths were meaningless because they had seen with thier eyes that resurrection happens through christ. If the romans extracted a confession that jesus was fake, don't you think christianity would have died in the coloseums of rome? Entire families were given death sentences for not renouncing the name of christ. You don't do things like that for lost fake causes.
That's powerful.
[Updated on: Tue, 18 July 2006 17:35] Report message to a moderator |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: hope none of you are them [message #208745 is a reply to message #207824] |
Tue, 18 July 2006 20:23 |
 |
NukeIt15
Messages: 987
Registered: February 2003
Location: Out to lunch
Karma: 0
|
Colonel |
|
|
Belief is a very powerful force; no matter what you believe, if you believe in it strongly enough you can accomplish a great many things that would not otherwise be possible. Enduring pain, for example, secure in knowing that death is not the end of life, and that something infinitely better awaits you on the other side. Or overcoming incredible odds to beat a disease that defied all cures through the belief that an otherworldy power was lending you its strength (the curative effects of faith, regardless of which faith, are well known). There are known examples of Buddhist Monks who, through their beliefs, are able to achieve total control of their bodies to the point of being able to halt the beating of their own hearts.
The power of true belief isn't anything new to Christianity. As far back as human history goes, true believers (regardless of what they believe) have always been willing to die for their beliefs. Many wars have been fought using religion as a motivational tool to bolster morale and drive soldiers to make the ultimate sacrifice without fear; the sacking of Troy, for example- both sides in the Trojan War believed that they had the backing of many powerful gods, and that death in battle would bring glory in the afterlife. The Crusades (and Saladin's highly successful campaign against the Crusaders) are another example, and the list goes on.
True belief is power, a power that- like any other power- can be called on to achieve great things or corrupted and abused for personal gain. It is also a power completely independent of any single faith- yet which each and every faith may help a person tap into.
"Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. Horrid mischief would ensue were (the law-abiding) deprived of the use of them." - Thomas Paine
Remember, kids: illiteracy is cool. If you took the time to read this, you are clearly a loser who will never get laid. You've been warned.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: hope none of you are them [message #208794 is a reply to message #207824] |
Wed, 19 July 2006 04:11 |
KIRBY-098
Messages: 338
Registered: July 2006
Karma: 0
|
Recruit |
|
|
Read more than the geek manifesto before you start throwing around over general statements only fit for debate with teenagers.
Humanity is evil. Christ and his teachings are perfect.
There's a reason I don't voluntarily throw myself into death as opposed to standing for what I believe is far more important than anything else you can understand in this life.
You understand why soldiers go to war for "Democracy". Why is it so hard to understand why men stand up for god's teaching peacefully and are persecuted for it.
Don't start bringing extreemism into this or the crusades. Those are deviant man made philosophies in the same vein as homosexuality. They show LACK of understanding and ignorance of the reality of the bible.
|
|
|
|
| Re: hope none of you are them [message #208832 is a reply to message #207824] |
Wed, 19 July 2006 11:05 |
|
NukeIt15
Messages: 987
Registered: February 2003
Location: Out to lunch
Karma: 0
|
Colonel |
|
|
| Quote: |
Humanity is evil. Christ and his teachings are perfect.
|
And again, says who? Mankind has been around for several million years, and many billions more have lived who didn't believe that than ever did- and the same goes for every other faith, bar none. Do try to put things in perspective- I'm not saying that you are wrong, necessarily, but that statement is something that you believe- and that countless others do not. What elevates your beliefs as having a higher status than those of anyone else? To date, I've been unable to find a satisfactory answer to that question- even where my own beliefs are concerned. Do you have an answer that could satisfy someone outside your own faith?
| Quote: |
There's a reason I don't voluntarily throw myself into death as opposed to standing for what I believe is far more important than anything else you can understand in this life.
|
It would be impossible for any person to understand completely the beliefs of someone else who follows a different faith. However, to say or imply that the same person cannot hold their own beliefs with the same stength of conviction and devotion is simply untrue.
| Quote: |
You understand why soldiers go to war for "Democracy". Why is it so hard to understand why men stand up for god's teaching peacefully and are persecuted for it.
|
True belief in one is fundamentally no different than true belief in another- from an outsider's point of view, of course; I realize you believe one to be far greater. You must, however, realize that many others don't.
| Quote: |
Don't start bringing extreemism into this or the crusades. Those are deviant man made philosophies in the same vein as homosexuality. They show LACK of understanding and ignorance of the reality of the bible.
|
Yet extremism is driven by the same beliefs which drive others to seek peace with their fellow man, the same beliefs which allow a person the strength to overcome almost insurmountable adversity. Even the most genuinely heartfelt truths can be abused by someone powerful with an agenda- it is very rarely the fault of the rank and file, who are merely led along by those same corrupt people. You are absolutely correct- it is not the belief that is corrupt, it is the person. Perhaps that is the reason why there have been so many thousands of vastly different faiths, each claiming to hold the key to ultimate Truth?
"Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. Horrid mischief would ensue were (the law-abiding) deprived of the use of them." - Thomas Paine
Remember, kids: illiteracy is cool. If you took the time to read this, you are clearly a loser who will never get laid. You've been warned.
|
|
|
|
| Re: hope none of you are them [message #208882 is a reply to message #208794] |
Wed, 19 July 2006 14:40 |
 |
Javaxcx
Messages: 1943
Registered: February 2003
Location: Canada, eh?
Karma: 0
|
General (1 Star) |
|
|
| KIRBY-098 wrote on Wed, 19 July 2006 07:11 |
Humanity is evil. Christ and his teachings are perfect.
|
Despite being quiet in this thread as to see where it goes, I'm hoping to get a reasoned and well thought out response from you in regrards to the question I'm going to ask.
Up until recently, I've held very similar beliefs to you. I held for a long while an atheist approach to this issue because it made more sense that we are more animal then anything else; that our consciousnesses are merely the sum of the parts by which we are made. A Christian friend and I discussed the flaws in Catholicism, more importantly, the pomp and circumstance that the entire dogma fondles itself with. Then it led to the situation of denominational religion (all based around Abraham's 3 major tendrils) and how the fundamentalists are, if they are right, the ones that their respective "God" would be looking for in the ideal human being. Literally taking their documents word for word in their correct context and application can only be doing exactly what God wants-- word for word, right?
I grew up in a Catholic environment, and even now I still treat the notion of Jesus resurrecting as so phenominal that it is not even something I sit down and reconsider. Whether or not he actually did almost seems to be a non-issue in lieu that if he merely died and did not come back, he was a pretty awesome guy anyway worthy of being rememebered as one of the greatest philosophers humanity has ever produced. After I looked through the Catholic doctrine and found how little of it has Biblical reinforcement, I was more or less swayed into the more fundamental approach that "Christians" hold. That being said, I confess I might have jumped on that boat a bit prematurely. Of course I was immersed in the Bible all throughout school, but I never read it critically as an adult in the fundamentalist context. Suffice to say, it's a pretty big fish to catch.
For example, the story of Samson defies so many fields of probable science that in context, (Bibilical or not) the possibility of it happening is relative to me reaching through my monitor and pulling out a purple monkey dishwasher. Another is the story of Creation, the story of Adam and Eve, and even more improbable, the issue that people lived up in excess of 900 (nine hundred) years before dying. You'll notice that a lot of the Old Testiment is so fantastic that it's like living in MiddleEarth. I researched the issue as to why people believe this is truth by associating "Christian Science" to the equation, but after looking at that such data critically, there are numerous flaws in each of the theories presented. The explanations seem vilify the science practiced today and formulate anew around a very, IMO, dangerous idea that I will tell you in a moment.
The New Testiment is much more believable, and I am more inclined to believe that as it is written, it actually happened very much the way described. This isn't including the issue of miracles and other supernatural happenings which I am quite undecided on because:
The axiomology does not make sense.
That is my primary concern regarding every single organized religion that has ever existed and will exist. Why should I treat the Bible as an objective truth when its existence defies the criteria that would otherwise allow for objective truth? Normally this wouldn't be an issue. I mean, no one really cares about objective comprehension of why doors open and why cola tastes good, but this is a metaphysical issue that demands our absolute obedience to avoid a state of physical pain. That's huge! Much of the Christian literature I read speaks of some kind of divine intervention on their psyche. Frankly, I'm not sure what to make of that. They tell me to give my heart to Jesus (how I'm to do this exactly I've inquired about, but I'm still confused as all fuck), accept salvation (this too I've asked many times and have yet to recieve an answer that makes even comprehendable sense), and read the Bible for objective truth to the issues I have in life. As such, I am now left in a limbo of agnosticism. Logic tells me that God almost certainly exists, but rationality tells me that such a God is not necessarily the one outlined by the pages of the Bible.
My question to you my friend is thus: Why? How?
Not, "Why should I bother", because that is an obvious and extremely arrogant question to even posit. I'm referring to the metaphysical principles that MUST exist otherwise the arguments for Christianity have failed before they start.
How does this even work? I've asked this to my Christian friends and I am always left with a lingering issue regarding the circular tendencies. For example; I've asked how they can come to know God (in the Biblical context, obviously) or Jesus in a truly phenominal way if prior to reading the same words I have read, they were unaware of them. They claim to speak to God on a daily basis as well. I can honestly tell you that regardless of how much I believed in God as a child and teenager, that every time I spoke to God I never recieved any kind of tangible (or intangible) response-- to others this is not true and quite the opposite. Either I was "praying wrong", insane, innocently ignorant, or I was right in bringing these issues of personal, absolute inconsistency up. That being said, as per my understanding, without the Bible, the knowledge of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit would be confined to the leather bound pages next to my monitor. This raises some pretty insane consequences and I'm sure I don't need to elaborate too much on the inductive nature of what I'm talking about. So I'm left with:
Why is this truth? Why is *insert non-biblical doctrine* not truth? Is there a rational non-circular argument to support the objectivity of the Bible? If so, I would truly like to hear it.
Sniper Extraordinaire
Read the FUD Rules before you come in and make an ass of yourself.
All your base are belong to us.
You have no chance to survive make your time.
[Updated on: Wed, 19 July 2006 14:42] Report message to a moderator |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: hope none of you are them [message #208978 is a reply to message #208966] |
Thu, 20 July 2006 06:20 |
 |
Scythar
Messages: 580
Registered: February 2003
Location: Finland
Karma: 0
|
Colonel |
|
|
| CarrierII wrote on Thu, 20 July 2006 08:11 |
As another random observation;
Why is(are) there not a religion(s) wherein the central deity is blamed for all that goes wrong? I mean, from prehistoric animals eating your son to everything that goes wrong nowadays you'd think we'd blame someone who can't argue back...
|
There are probably a lot of reasons. But the main one might be that if a god has the ability to make things go wrong, you'll NOT want to get in his "blacklist", or you're likely to get killed by some accident. So practically, when people believe a deity is malevolent, they'll end up making sacrifices and rituals to please him and try to get on his good side, not mock him. I haven't researched that many religions, but there's probably many examples of this.
It's the same reason you don't blame your stronger big brother for all your mishaps when he's around...
EDIT: Warranto is right in that many gods are both blamed for bad and praised for good, but I'm not sure if there's a deity which ONLY gets the bad blames and no respect, and has no other purpose. There were some such beings in the old finnish mythologies, for example Ajattar, who was some female godly creature of the woods that led people missing, but she wasn't a central god by any means.
There's a hole in the sky through which things can fly.
[Updated on: Thu, 20 July 2006 06:34] Report message to a moderator |
|
|
|
Goto Forum:
Current Time: Fri Apr 26 20:50:32 MST 2024
Total time taken to generate the page: 0.01357 seconds
|
Search
Help
Members
Register
Login
Home
