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| Re: hope none of you are them [message #208325 is a reply to message #208267] |
Sat, 15 July 2006 23:03   |
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Hydra
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| Crimson wrote on Sat, 15 July 2006 21:57 |
There are many people who have, from time to time, been tempted to think for themselves -- who have found themselves questioning beliefs they inherited but really never examined. This is nowhere more apt to be the case than in the area of religious beliefs. Our religious beliefs came to us in a protective coating of age and respectability, like the invisible "force field" of science fiction.
It takes a degree of intellectual courage to penetrate this penumbra of sanctity and inspect a belief on its own merits. Still, many people have done so. They have found themselves asking such questions as, how do I know that this book called the Bible is the supernaturally revealed and infallible word of God? How do I know there is even such a being as God? How does anybody know there is such a thing as immorality? When people begin seriously to raise questions of this sort, they find that their "faith", that is, their accustomed belief-patterns, seem increasingly insubstantial.
To lose one's faith may seem, in prospect, like being turned out of a comfortable home and left to fend for oneself in a vast and trackless waste. Those with a persistent curiosity and adventurous spirit will never-the-less leave their cozy shelter and set out to learn for themselves what it is like "out there." Although their first steps may be taken "in fear and trembling," they begin to find that they are not alone. They discover stalwart companions. They learn, indeed that they are "compassed about" with a "cloud of witnesses." As their minds become strengthened by use, they begin to see what others have seen, that their "spiritual home" was in reality a prison; its walls were built of ignorance and fear, and reinforced by habit and custom.
No one is kept in this prison but by oneself; it is a prison where every inmate is his or her jailer. Everyone, aware of it or not, already has the key that will unlock the door: the freedom to seek the truth.
- From the book Secular Nation by Thomas Vernon
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I have not read this book or know anything about the author, so don't get all ad-hominem on me.
However, the point stands. When (and if) you realize that this life is all you have and there is no great reward or punishment after you die, you are freed. Freed from fearing that who you love may decide your ultimate fate, freed from fearing that enjoying harmless pleasures won't condemn you to the imaginary pits of hell... As a child, the idea that this God person was there was told to me by my mom. Neither of my parents made me go to church more than a time or two, though I have attended at least a dozen sermons in my lifetime and attended Vacation Bible school twice. But even as a pre-teen, the whole god thing never stuck with me. It seemed like a weird story. Little did I know at that point how even intelligent people fell for this stuff and how deep this belief that some people have has gone back through the ages. Only recently did I really come to see clearly how religion was created by man to control people en masse, and as I discover people who I thought were intelligent being so the opposite, and so closed minded about religion.
It makes sense, of course. What better way to cement your religion than to convince the followers that non-believers are EVIL and are going to hell. Then if you hear common sense from us atheists you say the devil is speaking through us and shit. Such a beautiful near-perfect manipulation I see before me. I think less of you for falling for this shit, and you think less of me for not believing. What a beautiful situation that has been created, no?
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If you haven't read the book, why are you quoting from it? [/NITPICKING]
I feel sad for you, Crimson.
Notice I did not say "I pity you" (I don't view you as somehow lower than me simply because we disagree) but that I feel sad for you.
I feel sad that you have such a cynical view of not only all Christians but religion in general.
I'm sorry so many of my colleagues in Christ have failed to live up to the name "Christian"; though they may call themselves "Christian," many are hardly worthy of the title.
I'm sorry you think that the Christian faith is simply a tool to be used to "control the masses"; Christianity has a rough history, I'll give you that.
I'm sorry so many of the terrible news stories that you hear about often have to do with terrible "Christians" committing some bad act against children or whatever.
But what I'm really sorry for is that you haven't seen all the good that Christianity is doing and has accomplished.
How many Christians, who wanted to provide a medical service to the people in the area REGARDLESS of who they are or what they believe, have started and successfully maintained hospitals throughout the United States? How many chruches sponsor mission trips to places overseas to help out with orphanages and areas of natural disaster? How many Christians have donated millions upon millions of their own, private money to charities that OTHER Christians have already started? How many Christians and Christian groups have risked their own lives to travel to Iraq to help the struggling country rebuild its infrastructure after so many years of tyrannical rule? How many Christians have started group therapy organizations for recovering alcoholics or drug abusers? How many Christians have created similar groups/permanent centers for teenagers with crisis pregnancies? How many Christians have started homeless shelters and food drives for people living on the street? How many Christians have helped those same people living on the street, who acknowledge that they've royally messed, to get back onto their feet?
I could make my fingers tired from writing so many examples of exemplary Christians who have done extraordinary things to help their fellow men for a cause that, you say, is used only to control them.
Is it naiveté to look up at the sky at night and see the infinite complexity and order to the universe and not think that someone or something set it all into motion? How could our vast and great universe possibly have come about to exist if something didn't create it in the first place?
Is it childish to believe that we humans have some higher value than the cow squeeze and slaughtered pig meat that I ate on my pizza tonight (cheese and pepperoni, just to clarify  )?
Like I said before, I'm sorry for the actions of my fellow "Christians" who judge and condemn others to Hell when it most certainly isn't their place. Though they are obviously too abraisive in their tactics and don't know how to present their ideas in a tactful way, they really want the best for everyone.
What they mean by, "Believe in Jesus, or you're going to Hell!" is that they want you to experience the most beautiful gift God has ever given to mankind. They don't want you to be left behind in the dust when the taxi to heaven drives off. Though they may not say it in the best way possible, they really want the best for you.
It's the same way with the advice given in the Bible says, "Don't do thus and such." Sin isn't an incarnation of Christians to keep people from enjoying "harmless pleasures" (in fact, you'll have to tell me which "harmless pleasures" the Bible prohibits, because I'm not immediately aware of 'em (though I have a good idea what you might mean, which I will address in a second)). When you think about it logically (of which many atheists are fans), it makes very good sense not to do many of the things the Bible says not to do.
Take adultery for example. The Bible supports sex within the context of marriage fully ("Be fruitful and multiply (or something or other)" Proverbs, I think (never said I was good with Bible verses )). Sex outside of marriage? How can you fully devote your soul's entire love to your spouse if you have an affair every once in a while?
Now examine premarital sex. First of all, humanity's desire for sex is insatiable--no one can get enough of it, am I right? So if I go out every night and try to pick up a one-night stand, first of all, that's gonna cost me an arm and a leg in drinks and mickeys, and second of all, how is that going to fulfill me? I'm just going to go out the next night, and the night after, and so on. And plus, with each additional woman I bang, that increases my chances of catching a VD or having an unwanted child on my hands. Why would I want to have sex when I am neither financially, spiritually, nor maturely ready to have a child?
You can probably apply that logic to whatever other "harmless pleasures" you can think of. As you can see, the Bible doesn't tell us we can't enjoy ourselves; it's just showing us how we can live a life that will fulfill our every need (whether it's a spiritual, financial, relational, even sexual need).
Some people spend their entire lives searching for their own truth, like trying to drill for an oil well in a number of different places. They'd like to say that they've struck oil so many times even though the best they can find is tar.
We Christians believe we have struck oil. We believe our well is bursting out of the ground, and we feel it is our duty to try to supply everyone with as much of it as we can. They can obviously reject us, as so many have done, and be superficially satisfied with their barrel of tar, yet deep down, something inside of them tells them that their tar isn't the oil they're looking for.
(I probably could have expanded upon and elaborated that analogy a little more extensively if only it weren't 2:00 in the morning....)
So please don't chastize us for only doing what everyone else, including yourself, has done--proclaiming we have struck oil and that our truth is absolute. How "open-minded" is it to say we haven't struck our oil when you haven't even begun drilling yet (that was a figurative "you," by the way)?
Walter Keith Koester: September 22, 1962 - March 15, 2005
God be with you, Uncle Wally.
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| Re: hope none of you are them [message #208353 is a reply to message #208325] |
Sun, 16 July 2006 02:53 |
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Crimson
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| Hydra wrote on Sat, 15 July 2006 23:03 |
If you haven't read the book, why are you quoting from it? [/NITPICKING]
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Because I like the passage that I quoted and felt it appropriate to the discussion...
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I feel sad for you, Crimson.
Notice I did not say "I pity you" (I don't view you as somehow lower than me simply because we disagree) but that I feel sad for you.
I feel sad that you have such a cynical view of not only all Christians but religion in general.
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I didn't come of it lightly. I have done a LOT of reading of various peoples' ideas.
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I'm sorry so many of my colleagues in Christ have failed to live up to the name "Christian"; though they may call themselves "Christian," many are hardly worthy of the title.
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One of the many reasons I don't believe in an omniscient, omnibenevolent god that would allow such horrible acts to be carried out in his name.
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But what I'm really sorry for is that you haven't seen all the good that Christianity is doing and has accomplished.
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You're wrong about that. Since religion is a tool to control the masses, it makes them moral and in many cases, less selfish. The good acts are just a result of that.
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Is it naiveté to look up at the sky at night and see the infinite complexity and order to the universe and not think that someone or something set it all into motion?
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Absolutely.
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How could our vast and great universe possibly have come about to exist if something didn't create it in the first place?
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This is called the "God of the Gaps", or "Argument from ignorance" argument. Just because you can't explain it doesn't mean it's unexplainable. Just because you don't know how something came to be doesn't mean God did it. As science discovers more and more, there is less and less room for god to operate. One day, generations after us, belief in a god will probably be only in the history books, just as the ancient Greek and Roman gods.
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Is it childish to believe that we humans have some higher value than the cow squeeze and slaughtered pig meat that I ate on my pizza tonight (cheese and pepperoni, just to clarify )?
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Not necessarily childish, but we don't necessarily have more value. It's the height of egotism to believe this all exists solely for us who inhabit such a tiny fraction of the universe.
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Like I said before, I'm sorry for the actions of my fellow "Christians" who judge and condemn others to Hell when it most certainly isn't their place.
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I don't really care. If hell exists, it's not their place or duty to decide whether I go there or not.
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Though they are obviously too abraisive in their tactics and don't know how to present their ideas in a tactful way, they really want the best for everyone.
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They don't know what's best for me or anyone else.
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What they mean by, "Believe in Jesus, or you're going to Hell!" is that they want you to experience the most beautiful gift God has ever given to mankind.
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What gift? What are you TALKING about? This doesn't make ANY sense to me.
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They don't want you to be left behind in the dust when the taxi to heaven drives off. Though they may not say it in the best way possible, they really want the best for you.
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They assume this god exists when they think this is the best for me. I understand that it's more comfortable to imagine that something awaits you when you die, but the odds are good that you'll just be worm food.
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When you think about it logically (of which many atheists are fans), it makes very good sense not to do many of the things the Bible says not to do.
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Have you read "Kissing Hank's Ass" yet? Just because some of the advice in the bible is good, it doesn't immediate make the whole book good AND the holy word of this diety.
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We Christians believe we have struck oil. We believe our well is bursting out of the ground, and we feel it is our duty to try to supply everyone with as much of it as we can. They can obviously reject us, as so many have done, and be superficially satisfied with their barrel of tar, yet deep down, something inside of them tells them that their tar isn't the oil they're looking for.
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And yet you don't even see that when you have been told over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over that you must share this gift with everyone, that you have become a mouthpiece and a tool for this organization and you have been led to believe that brainwashing other people into your big cult is a GOOD thing for us? Ugh!
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So please don't chastize us for only doing what everyone else, including yourself, has done--proclaiming we have struck oil and that our truth is absolute. How "open-minded" is it to say we haven't struck our oil when you haven't even begun drilling yet (that was a figurative "you," by the way)?
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I don't get that analogy. It's like we all read a book and you decided it was true and I decided it was a fanciful fairy tale. Could I be wrong? Sure! But at least I am very thankful that I have been raised in such a way that I can be open minded and make my own decision. If you were told this whole story of Jesus and god as your age having never heard of it before, you would think it was a total load of bullshit, too. It just doesn't make any sense at all. I am not any more or less happy than a god-believer anyway. Mankind has created literally thousands of deities in our lifetime. You don't believe in any of them but one. I just believe in one less than you. Once you understand the reason that you don't accept any of these other gods, you might begin to understand why I don't accept yours.
I'm the bawss.
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| Re: hope none of you are them [message #208410 is a reply to message #207824] |
Sun, 16 July 2006 11:48 |
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warranto
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One of the many reasons I don't believe in an omniscient, omnibenevolent god that would allow such horrible acts to be carried out in his name.
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Free Will. Humanity allows it to happen.
Here's a ficticious case study for you though:
There is someone in the world who is killing indiscriminately, and without mercy. Now, you're God. What do you do? Do you stop him, or allow him to continue?
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As science discovers more and more, there is less and less room for god to operate.
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Not true. That just means that less and less can be directly attributable to God.
As for the rest of the stuff, all that is doing is "disproving" Religion, (ie. our current explination of God). Nothing has been stated that would disprove the existance of God himself.
Interesting take on the "oil" aspect though. The idea of someone pushing their ideals onto others because it is good for them. Kind of sounds like someone who, I don't know, support the "good" that is being done in Iraq, by "forcing" the ideals of America on them.
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| Re: hope none of you are them [message #208613 is a reply to message #207824] |
Tue, 18 July 2006 00:55 |
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Doitle
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Crimson, you continuously make distinctions about people who can think freely and people who beleive in organized religion. Neither of my parents are religious. I never went to church as a kid, I've faced no prosecution or pressure towards any denomination. I told my parents I wanted to attend CCD and did so, I'm a confirmed Catholoic. I've thought about it and continue to to this day. When someone "Is capable of rationally thinking", they do not automatically shed religious beleifs. You seem to make the case that only people too stupid to think for themselves are religious. The fact that so many people here are sharing their impressions and interperetations of religion show this. If you ask my impression of heaven, my impression of salvation and sin, they will be different from another Catholic and another Christian. Now you might say well one of you listened more closely to the "Propoganda". No, as you receive information and learn, you process it differently than another. The old cliche saying "One mans heaven is anothers hell", is very true. If you've ever seen the episode of the Twilight Zone I'm about to describe then you know what I'm talking about. A man who spent his life gambling, dies. He wakes up in a very nice room and meets a old man looking like a butler. The man explains that here he can have anything he wants, and if he wants to gamble he can go right ahead. The man tests it out, and wins, and he plays games all day and wins every time. He soon realizes he can't lose. He always wins no matter what. After a while he begins to lose his sanity because he can't lose at anything, no matter how hard he tries. The chance was the most important aspect to him and because he could never lose, there was no chance, there was just winning. Finally he goes to the old man and says "I hate it here in heaven!" and the old man says "This isn't heaven" MWAHAHAHAHA. The point of this all is just that Heaven is described as paradise and Hell is described as an anti-paradise. It's up to you to fill in those blanks, how Jesus was ressurrected in the cave? That's up to you wether you picture it as him materializing in the cave on that morning or him hanging up on the cross with a respawn timer and then him spawning behind the rock, walking up to the PT in the wall and pressing E, going to characters and buying a Jesus. Just because someone beleives in organized religion do not discount them as a brainwashed idiot. I notice every single time you defend your stance on organized religion you say something about people thinking less of you because of it. I don't think any less of you because you don't beleive in organized religion, I do however think less of you because you view every follower of organized religion as a brainwashed zombie. I can tell you, there are zombies. I'm not one, and I'm sure a lot of other people on here sharing their beleifs aren't zombies either. I would wager some people are even learning more about their own faith here, discussing it and answering the challenges from others. After all, you learn through "practise". Ha, bad pun. Practising Religion.
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| Re: hope none of you are them [message #208628 is a reply to message #207824] |
Tue, 18 July 2006 05:37 |
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I'll admit, I was pretty much brainwashed as far as faith goes up until I started college. This was where I started to question things. I still question things until this day, but I still never lose my faith. It's not because I'm too stupid to let go. It's because I've found that science and the Bible DO work together, as long as you don't take the Old Testament too literally. I believe those stories to be true, but told in a different way that can contradict science if the symbolism isn't stripped from the stories.
Libertarian Party | The King's Throne | The Soda Shop
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| Re: hope none of you are them [message #208661 is a reply to message #207824] |
Tue, 18 July 2006 12:45 |
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Crimson
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Honestly, though... when you are at the level that I am on all this stuff, those who bind themselves to one belief are so significantly less open minded than those who only put this "god" as one of many possibilities. And I can explain this:
Given the two broad unanswered questions that religion attempts to answer:
- How did we get here/who put us here/where did the universe come from?
- What happens to us when we die? Do we have a soul or spirit?
There are basically infinite possibilities of answers to either of these questions. There may even be more than one actual true factual answer. So, when you think about these questions, you can come up with theories ranging from "the Universe was sneezed out of the nose of a being called the Great Green Arkleseizure" to "we are actually existing as part of another world larger than us and we are just atoms to them". But, if you limit yourself to setting "God" as a constant, then you are severely limiting yourself and closing your mind to the possibility that there is not and never was the Christian god Yahweh/Jehovah. Hence, you ARE in fact closed minded if you're not seriously putting your faith the the ultimate challenge of logic and question.
However, if you consider the very real possibility that there's a reason so many people have decided not to believe in Yahweh, and really question this whole "story of Jesus", you just might find more flaws in that logic than you ever thought could exist.
The biggest hurdle, however, is the negative view that atheists have in society. All you theists have been told all your lives that atheists are going to hell for not believing and that people who go to hell are evil. The "logical" jump there is that we are evil and live our lives without regard for others, without morals, and without care of consequences. In reality, my life is vastly comparable to yours and wonderful things and bad things happen to me just like they happen to you. And I don't pray for things either way. Shocking, isn't it?
I'm the bawss.
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| Re: hope none of you are them [message #208662 is a reply to message #208661] |
Tue, 18 July 2006 12:57 |
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| Crimson |
But, if you limit yourself to setting "God" as a constant, then you are severely limiting yourself and closing your mind to the possibility that there is not and never was the Christian god Yahweh/Jehovah. Hence, you ARE in fact closed minded if you're not seriously putting your faith the the ultimate challenge of logic and question.
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Those who blindly follow faith are closed-minded. That's not something that I disagree with. I continue to mold and shift my beliefs. However, I still remain a Christian. I have yet to see anything to prove me otherwise. I don't pretend that I know absolute truth, but to me... it is truth. Whether wrong or right, until I am proved wrong, it's what I'll stick to. I will also continue to challenge my faith. I will continue to question. I don't have to practice something to be open-minded. I accept that other things could be truth, but I've settled on one thing, and I'll stick to it. Just because I'm heterosexual doesn't necessarily mean I'm closed-minded to homosexuality. I don't practice it, but I'm certainly not going to say that heterosexuality is the ONLY way to live because it obviously isn't.
| Crimson |
However, if you consider the very real possibility that there's a reason so many people have decided not to believe in Yahweh, and really question this whole "story of Jesus", you just might find more flaws in that logic than you ever thought could exist.
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I know there's a reason. I just don't agree with it. I don't see the flaws in anything I believe. My beliefs aren't disproven, so how can you say that they're flawed? They may very well be, but to date... they're not.
| Crimson |
The biggest hurdle, however, is the negative view that atheists have in society. All you theists have been told all your lives that atheists are going to hell for not believing and that people who go to hell are evil. The "logical" jump there is that we are evil and live our lives without regard for others, without morals, and without care of consequences. In reality, my life is vastly comparable to yours and wonderful things and bad things happen to me just like they happen to you. And I don't pray for things either way. Shocking, isn't it?
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Would you care to not generalize about Christianity's view on the secular world? That's only the extremists' views.
Libertarian Party | The King's Throne | The Soda Shop
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| Re: hope none of you are them [message #208663 is a reply to message #207824] |
Tue, 18 July 2006 13:14 |
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warranto
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Once again, that could only be seen as proof that RELIGION is wrong. RELIGION has nothing to do with GOD, other than it is humanities interpretation of him. It wouldn't matter if every religion ever invented, or that will be invented has gotten it wrong, it does nothing to prove or disprove the existance of God.
God, under the assumption, for arugment's sake, that he exists will continue to exist, even after all religions of the world fail, and everyone turns athiest.
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| Re: hope none of you are them [message #208664 is a reply to message #208661] |
Tue, 18 July 2006 13:19 |
KIRBY-098
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| Crimson wrote on Tue, 18 July 2006 15:45 |
Honestly, though... when you are at the level that I am on all this stuff, those who bind themselves to one belief are so significantly less open minded than those who only put this "god" as one of many possibilities.
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What level would that be?
You appear to be relegating the global theists to a backwards state of thinking while elevating your atheism to some moral high point we need to correct ourselves to, and work towards.
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| Re: hope none of you are them [message #208666 is a reply to message #208662] |
Tue, 18 July 2006 13:27 |
KIRBY-098
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| j_ball430 wrote on Tue, 18 July 2006 14:57 |
Those who blindly follow faith are closed-minded. That's not something that I disagree with. I continue to mold and shift my beliefs. However, I still remain a Christian. I have yet to see anything to prove me otherwise. I don't pretend that I know absolute truth, but to me... it is truth. Whether wrong or right, until I am proved wrong, it's what I'll stick to. I will also continue to challenge my faith. I will continue to question. I don't have to practice something to be open-minded. I accept that other things could be truth, but I've settled on one thing, and I'll stick to it. Just because I'm heterosexual doesn't necessarily mean I'm closed-minded to homosexuality. I don't practice it, but I'm certainly not going to say that heterosexuality is the ONLY way to live because it obviously isn't.
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If you claim the name of "christian" and discount this statement about homosexuality: "1 Corinthians 6:9
Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders." ; then you are mitigating the truth in the word and doubting God as competent enough to get the written word right.
Heterosexuality is what was intended as evidenced by the very fact that the parts were made to go together to start and the paragraph above.
Homosexuality was man's foolish deviation from the perfect ways of God, just as organized religion, robes, popes and everything else not stated in the bible is.
Correct yourself to the truth, and return to what is right. Not what is popular.
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| Re: hope none of you are them [message #208669 is a reply to message #208668] |
Tue, 18 July 2006 13:42 |
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| KIRBY-098 wrote on Tue, 18 July 2006 16:37 |
No one's asking you to slander anything.
It's just plain incorrect thinking according to the bible. And to call it viable gives mental assent to that deviancy.
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Yeah, it's incorrect, but it still doesn't make them any more of a sinner than anybody else. All sins are equal, so to claim moral high ground simply because we chose to believe that a heterosexual lifestyle is the correct one is false and a sin in itself. Not that I'm saying that it's okay because we all sin, anyways, but it still doesn't make them any worse than us. I know that's not what you're saying, though.
Libertarian Party | The King's Throne | The Soda Shop
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| Re: hope none of you are them [message #208671 is a reply to message #208669] |
Tue, 18 July 2006 13:54 |
KIRBY-098
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| j_ball430 wrote on Tue, 18 July 2006 15:42 |
| KIRBY-098 wrote on Tue, 18 July 2006 16:37 |
No one's asking you to slander anything.
It's just plain incorrect thinking according to the bible. And to call it viable gives mental assent to that deviancy.
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Yeah, it's incorrect, but it still doesn't make them any more of a sinner than anybody else. All sins are equal, so to claim moral high ground simply because we chose to believe that a heterosexual lifestyle is the correct one is false and a sin in itself. Not that I'm saying that it's okay because we all sin, anyways, but it still doesn't make them any worse than us. I know that's not what you're saying, though.
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It's not my moral highground I'm promoting. It's GOD's.
If we give mental assent to one sin, it becomes easy to start mitigating the rest of them. Where do you draw the line?
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| Re: hope none of you are them [message #208677 is a reply to message #208661] |
Tue, 18 July 2006 14:30 |
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NeoSaber
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| Crimson wrote on Tue, 18 July 2006 15:45 |
All you theists have been told all your lives that atheists are going to hell for not believing and that people who go to hell are evil.
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So you know everything about all of us? No one ever told me my father is going to hell, and I certainly don't believe he will. If anyone in my family ends up in hell it'll be me. I'm a horrible human being.
Some theists don't even believe in hell. Your generalizations keep betraying your ignorance on these subjects every time you post. When you say something like "I just believe in one less god than you" to a Christian you are claiming to believe in -1 gods. Christians don't believe in any god at all. That's a polytheist concept, not a monotheist one.
You keep talking about how you're better than the rest of us, but you don't even know what you're saying. I don't know whether to laugh or cry when I read stuff like this.
NeoSaber
Renegade Map Maker at CnC Source
Animator/Compiler/Level Editor/Object Rigger/Programmer for Red Alert: A Path Beyond
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| Re: hope none of you are them [message #208681 is a reply to message #208662] |
Tue, 18 July 2006 15:24 |
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Crimson
Messages: 7427
Registered: February 2003
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Karma: 0
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General (5 Stars)
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| j_ball430 wrote on Tue, 18 July 2006 12:57 |
Would you care to not generalize about Christianity's view on the secular world? That's only the extremists' views.
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Extremists?
In a 1999 poll, 48% of Americans said they would not consider voting for an Atheist. Some dictionaries offer an alternate definition of Atheist as “wicked.” The Boy Scouts membership form says, “no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing his obligation to God.”
How are people supposed to know that Atheists in fact do grow up to be the best kinds of American citizens every day — if we aren't visible? Atheists of Silicon Valley is reclaiming the A-word in our community by encouraging local Atheists to come out of the closet and be open with friends, co-workers, neighbors and family. We're standing up and speaking out. 14% of Americans and 19% of Californians identify themselves as some kind of non-believer. We may be a minority, but we're sizable and growing. According to the American Religious Identification Survey, Americans who answered "none" when asked to identify their religion numbered 29.4 million in 2001, more than double the 14.3 million in 1990.
- From www.godlessgeeks.com
| NeoSaber |
You keep talking about how you're better than the rest of us, but you don't even know what you're saying.
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I never said better. I guarantee it. Better is far to general a word for this situation. I can't remember when I wasn't an atheist (except when I dabbled in agnosticism). And I never said my "level" and specified that it's a level above or below yours. It's just my level. The amount of time, effort, and thought I put into it. I define a supreme being/deity as a variable in my equation, whereas you guys seem to want to define him as a constant, and anything that doesn't fit that constant is simply rejected rather than considered. I believe that's the very definition of closed-mindedness if I'm not mistaken.
Like I said before, I have been to churches. I've heard the sermons. I've felt very uncomfortable and embarrassed as people bowed to their knees and made a scene of themselves in the pews, because whatever they felt or pretended to feel just simply wasn't there for me. I have never read the bible and probably never will. But I have had one experience that challenged my lack of faith. It will just take more of them to change my mind. I'm not holding out hope.
| NeoSaber |
Your generalizations keep betraying your ignorance on these subjects every time you post. When you say something like "I just believe in one less god than you" to a Christian you are claiming to believe in -1 gods. Christians don't believe in any god at all. That's a polytheist concept, not a monotheist one.
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I'm not sure how I can "betray my ignorance" but you are missing the point. The funny part is that I know you are smarter than that, so you're just picking apart my words because you can't refute the actual argument. Care to try again? Let me make this really really clear for you so that you can comprehend, ok? You do not believe in the ancient Greek gods. You know that Helios doesn't cart the sun across the sky. You know that Thor doesn't throw lightning bolts down. You disbelieve in all these other gods that have been created by man. I just disbelieve in a little bit more than you disbelieve. Is that clear enough for you? I hope I didn't leave any other lingual oddities in there for you to pounce on to dodge the issue.
I'm the bawss.
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| Re: hope none of you are them [message #208684 is a reply to message #208681] |
Tue, 18 July 2006 16:01 |
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| Crimson wrote on Tue, 18 July 2006 18:24 |
I define a supreme being/deity as a variable in my equation, whereas you guys seem to want to define him as a constant, and anything that doesn't fit that constant is simply rejected rather than considered. I believe that's the very definition of closed-mindedness if I'm not mistaken.
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ENOUGH WITH THE GENERALIZATIONS!
Where do you get this from that we just simply reject it? Have any of us in this thread implied that we take the Bible literally? Every single word? I haven't seen it, so stop generalizing. If I'm not mistaken, I've even said I agree with the Big Bang Theory.
What's funny is that you're trying to call it closed-mindedness because "we" reject something that doesn't fit this "constant" you claim we define, yet you think less of us because of what we believe. Who is rejecting what?
Libertarian Party | The King's Throne | The Soda Shop
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| Re: hope none of you are them [message #208687 is a reply to message #208684] |
Tue, 18 July 2006 16:19 |
KIRBY-098
Messages: 338
Registered: July 2006
Karma: 0
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Recruit |
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| j_ball430 wrote on Wed, 19 July 2006 11:01 |
Have any of us in this thread implied that we take the Bible literally? Every single word? I haven't seen it, so stop generalizing. If I'm not mistaken, I've even said I agree with the Big Bang Theory.
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I do.
It's the inspired word of God. What's in there is EXACTLY what he intended to be. If he can create matter and energy, he sure can make sure his word is infallible.
There may be metaphors parables figurative language and the like used as teaching instruments (parable of the seeds for example), but what's in there belongs in there, and is inerrant.
Edit: Ms. Korza, if not for anything else than just understanding christian theology better, I recommend an anonymous online bible study like the following:
http://www.netbiblestudy.net/
[Updated on: Tue, 18 July 2006 16:26] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: hope none of you are them [message #208698 is a reply to message #208689] |
Tue, 18 July 2006 16:44 |
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Sniper_De7
Messages: 866
Registered: April 2004
Location: Wisconsin
Karma: 0
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Colonel |
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| mrpirate wrote on Tue, 18 July 2006 18:26 |
^ Yikes.
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Oderint, dum metuant.
It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat. - Theodore "Teddy" Roosevelt
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