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| Re: Church of FSM [message #177202 is a reply to message #175124] |
Tue, 01 November 2005 08:15   |
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Crimson
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Even if some "god" or some mouse or some pigeon caused the "big bang", it still doesn't match your little creationism aka ID theory.
I'm the bawss.
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| Re: Church of FSM [message #177227 is a reply to message #175124] |
Tue, 01 November 2005 10:21 |
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Whether or not "God" is the one and only superior being, it's quite obvious that there is, infact, some higher power. Look at the world around you. You just suppose that all this came to be by CHANCE? We're somehow to believe that an explosion created the prime conditions to spawn life? A perfect atmosphere to sustain life? Spherical celestial objects? That by the process of evolution, a man and a woman came to be? That the penis and vagina just happened to form to be used as instruments to spawn offspring? That the elements and how they combine with each other is some fluke? The intricacy of the atom. How protons, neutrons, and electrons combine to create the elements? This was obviously thought of, planned out, and executed. The beauty and intricacy of the universe is too perfect to have been brought about by some random explosion in the universe. Believe what you will, but this is so obvious to me, I laugh at how people can just ignore it simply because they refuse to believe in a higher power.
Libertarian Party | The King's Throne | The Soda Shop
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| Re: Church of FSM [message #177230 is a reply to message #175124] |
Tue, 01 November 2005 10:40 |
Parad0x
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If i were to say i was a higher being, you would not beleive me, and ask where is the proof, but where is the proof i am not?
Whether you choose to believe in a God or a higher being, science has been proven as Crimson mentioned, what happened before that is just theories and what people choose to believe.
The perfect atmosphere to sustain life you mention means you dont beleive in other forms of life. Any other planet could be a perfect atmosphere to sustain a different life form.
If God or this higher power is infact real, why is this "perfect" world for us not so perfect?
Forum E-Terrorist ~ Hijacking Threads Is What It's About!
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| Re: Church of FSM [message #177235 is a reply to message #177144] |
Tue, 01 November 2005 11:35 |
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NeoSaber
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| Crimson wrote on Mon, 31 October 2005 11:58 |
If you have a couple hours, read THIS. If you close the page before getting to the end of all the chapters, you will have proven to yourself that you do NOT have an open mind.
http://whydoesgodhateamputees.com/
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I haven't had much time to read this, so I've only gotten through 4 or 5 chapters, but something is becoming increasingly obvious the more I read: this guy is the Michael Moore of atheism. He keeps pulling out quotes (which he doesn't really cite properly to begin with), attaches crazy ideas I doubt he even believes, and then before readers have a chance to think for themselves, he attempts to steer them into one of two bullshit conclusions. (One of which he knows the reader will reject, but is only there to make the other conclusion seem acceptable by comparison.)
He tries to twist reality and keep people from thinking for themselves about the evidence. He constantly tries to demean and belittle people who may think different in an attempt to drive more people to accept his propaganda, after all how many people will stand there and be laughed at when they can just go along with the crowd. Needing to rely on insults like this just reveals how weak his position really is.
Even the title of this book is something I'd expect from Michael Moore. It's designed to imprint a suggestion on the reader's mind. If it were in any way 'fair', it would have been written "Does God hate amputees?". By starting off with "Why does God hate amputees?", it's jumping to the conclusion that he does hate them, and hoping to drag the reader into that prejudged conclusion.
Everything I've read so far has him taking an extreme position, in hopes that even the 'fair, open-minded person' will get caught in a trap of trying to compromise between two views. This is done so that the person gets drawn to the position he really wants them to be at while making them think they have come to a 'fair' compromise. By essentially making someone lie to themself, it makes the twisted reality all the more difficult to realize and correct.
He is so transparent it isn't even funny. How blind does a person have to be to accept what this guy is saying?
| Crimson wrote on Mon, 31 October 2005 17:30 |
The Bible does a bit more than "mention" slavery, it in fact condones it as far as beating your slave within an inch of his/her life.
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| Crimson wrote on Mon, 31 October 2005 17:30 |
But I sure as FUCK do not base my atheism on the bible. Especially because I never read the dumb thing in the first place!
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Oh... I guess I have my answer...
NeoSaber
Renegade Map Maker at CnC Source
Animator/Compiler/Level Editor/Object Rigger/Programmer for Red Alert: A Path Beyond
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| Re: Church of FSM [message #177255 is a reply to message #177229] |
Tue, 01 November 2005 13:38 |
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| mrpirate wrote on Tue, 01 November 2005 11:36 |
| j_ball430 wrote on Tue, 01 November 2005 12:21 |
Whether or not "God" is the one and only superior being, it's quite obvious that there is, infact, some higher power. Look at the world around you. You just suppose that all this came to be by CHANCE?
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Pretty much. And don't worry, atheists are laughing at you too.
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That's fine because I'm laughing right back at them.
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We can easily disprove your claim of being a higher being. We have the means to do it. However, we don't have the means to prove that God doesn't exist. We also don't have the means to prove that he does, either.
Science can't "prove" anything if they're not physically there to observe it. They can't take into account the phenomenons or any other event that could throw off their data. They can only make estimates on their ideas by using constants. There are plenty of variables unaccounted for in their observations.
Of course, I don't. Besides, no other planet in our solar system is capable of sustaining life as we know it.
Because WE are destroying His creation. His creation was perfect. It's sin that ruined it all for us.
Libertarian Party | The King's Throne | The Soda Shop
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| Re: Church of FSM [message #177298 is a reply to message #177230] |
Tue, 01 November 2005 17:41 |
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Hydra
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| Parad0x wrote on Tue, 01 November 2005 12:40 |
If i were to say i was a higher being, you would not beleive me, and ask where is the proof, but where is the proof i am not?
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If I'm not mistaken, it's kind of impossible to prove a negative.
Anyways, you would have to prove that you're a god; you simply saying it does not make it true, and it is not up to us to disprove it.
| Crimson |
Even if some "god" or some mouse or some pigeon caused the "big bang", it still doesn't match your little creationism aka ID theory.
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Where did I say I supported the theory of Intelligent Design?
You're putting words into my mouth; you're also not confronting what I said and are simply trying to get a stir out of Christians, thus proving Aircraftkiller right.
Walter Keith Koester: September 22, 1962 - March 15, 2005
God be with you, Uncle Wally.
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| Re: Church of FSM [message #177300 is a reply to message #175124] |
Tue, 01 November 2005 17:47 |
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Sniper_De7
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it only seems so much "perfect" to us because given what can only be seen in our solar system, we cannot begin to realize what the possibilities are. Seeing as WE are in the position to recognize that there is life here shows how remote the chances seem to be that no where else can there sustain life. From our point of view it would only seem impossible that life can exist anywhere else. But given infinity possibilities for life to occur elsewhere one can't just distinguish the fact that it's possible. Sure, it might be that we may be the most advanced out of life out there. I mean if we absolutely knew there was life somewhere else. Wouldn't it seem more conclusive that it's possible for life to exist without the help of a higher power? The very fact that the universe being as big and large as it is, means that life could exist given another chance like Earth does. We know that Earth is an extreme case, and the fact we know this is the very reason that it is one. The biggest thing i don't see why people rely on is that the universe is huge perhaps even unlimited. The odds for life out of infinity does not seem so ridiculous. The only problem is that seeing as how small the chances for life are, we will probably never see it before something happens to us first.
Oderint, dum metuant.
It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat. - Theodore "Teddy" Roosevelt
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| Re: Church of FSM [message #177350 is a reply to message #175124] |
Tue, 01 November 2005 23:42 |
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Crimson
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Look, if some dude 2000 years ago was born here on earth and said he was God, I WANT SOME DAMN PROOF! Believing in a higher power takes a shitload of faith that I don't give out freely just because other people say "he's" out there. You guys grew up and stopped believing in Santa, now it's time to go the next step.
I'm the bawss.
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| Re: Church of FSM [message #177352 is a reply to message #175124] |
Tue, 01 November 2005 23:44 |
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Hydra
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You're still dodging us.
We'd prefer it if you'd directly address Neosaber's, my, or Aircraftkiller's points since we all responded directly to what you have said. Or, if you like, you can respond to what J_Ball said, even though he didn't direct it toward you.
C'mon, Crimson, this isn't like you.
Walter Keith Koester: September 22, 1962 - March 15, 2005
God be with you, Uncle Wally.
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[Updated on: Tue, 01 November 2005 23:47] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Church of FSM [message #177354 is a reply to message #175124] |
Tue, 01 November 2005 23:47 |
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Crimson
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Not exactly sure what I'm supposed to reply to here...
I'm the bawss.
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| Re: Church of FSM [message #177355 is a reply to message #175124] |
Tue, 01 November 2005 23:52 |
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Hydra
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| Hydra |
*insert wikipedia quotations*
Aside from that, though, let me ask you, what happened a second before the billionth of a billionth of a second after the Big Bang? Did all the matter concentrated at that one point exist....
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| Aircraftkiller |
Whether or not it matches is irrelevant, all you're doing is trolling (I never thought I'd have to actually tell Crimson this on her own forum) for responses....
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| Neosaber |
I haven't had much time to read this, so I've only gotten through 4 or 5 chapters, but something is becoming increasingly obvious the more I read: this guy is the Michael Moore of atheism....
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You can read the full posts further up on the previous page; I just did this to highlight the ones directly challenging your statements.
Walter Keith Koester: September 22, 1962 - March 15, 2005
God be with you, Uncle Wally.
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| Re: Church of FSM [message #177362 is a reply to message #177355] |
Wed, 02 November 2005 00:31 |
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Crimson
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| Hydra wrote on Tue, 01 November 2005 23:52 |
| Hydra |
*insert wikipedia quotations*
Aside from that, though, let me ask you, what happened a second before the billionth of a billionth of a second after the Big Bang? Did all the matter concentrated at that one point exist....
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That's a good question. I wonder about that, too. I hope I might have the answer in my lifetime. I don't see how me not knowing the answer to this question is supposed to make me believe in God though.
| Aircraftkiller |
Whether or not it matches is irrelevant, all you're doing is trolling (I never thought I'd have to actually tell Crimson this on her own forum) for responses....
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I wouldn't call it trolling for responses. It is always fascinating to me to watch how people respond to things, whether it's seeing someone who doesn't believe in what they believe, or whether I make a certain move in a poker game. Religion aside, I have been very interested in quantum theory lately and it's interesting to see the behaviors and thoughts that become so natural and conditioned to us. There's a saying in the Catholic Church: "Give me a child before the age of 5 and I'll make it a Catholic for life." It's fascinating how I was never really exposed to God in a church, but merely as motherly mentions of heaven and such. It gives me a very different view of religions and beliefs in higher beings than someone who was taken to church on Sunday for their entire lives.
| Neosaber |
I haven't had much time to read this, so I've only gotten through 4 or 5 chapters, but something is becoming increasingly obvious the more I read: this guy is the Michael Moore of atheism....
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Yeah, and of course I see right through his manipulations. In fact I would have written this information quite differently because of what I saw as blatant word twisting and assumptions. I guess I thought everyone else would see through that and still think about the content. The passages from the Bible aren't faked. You could look them up yourself and read the surrounding context. I'm not sure what context surrounding this passage would make it any better though:
| "Exodus Chapter 21, verse 20" |
If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.
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| "actual text" |
21:20 And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.
21:21 Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.
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Reference: http://www.cforc.com/kjv/Exodus/21.html
If the bible is in fact the word of your God then is this not him directly condoning beating your servant/maid?
And what about this blatant sexism? What other interpretation?
| "Timothy chapter 2" |
2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
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It took centuries of change to allow women an equal voice. Now we have woman CEOs, and we've have female teachers for quite a while. Aren't we all disobeying God then?
I'm the bawss.
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| Re: Church of FSM [message #177425 is a reply to message #177350] |
Wed, 02 November 2005 08:08 |
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warranto
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| Crimson wrote on Wed, 02 November 2005 01:42 |
You guys grew up and stopped believing in Santa, now it's time to go the next step.
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Let's look at the reasons WHY people stop believing in Santa (though I assume you mean the marketing-gimic Santa as we use it today and not St. Nicholas, because he WAS a real person).
1. You parents admitted they were the ones who bought you the gifts.
2. Failing (1) occuring, the gift magically stop appearing when you are no longer in immediate contact with your parents.
These are two physical evidences that Santa (as the marketing department would want you to believe in) does not exist. This proof does not hold for the idea of God. You can't equate God to Santa. One has physical evidence to disprove the existance of, and the other has no proof for or against it.
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I WANT SOME DAMN PROOF! Believing in a higher power takes a shitload of faith that I don't give out freely just because other people say "he's" out there.
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Infact, please stop referring to "proof" and "faith/belief" in the same sentence. The two are exclusive of one another. You can not claim to have faith in ANYTHING if you have proof of it. The reason it is called faith if because there is NO proof of it's existance.
Though I do admit you're being a bit hypocritical here. I'm sure you beleive in the existance of atoms, electrons, bacteria, etc. But tell me, have you ever seen them with your own eyes (unaided by any devices)? If you haven't then you have no PROOF of their existance. Yet you chhose to believe the person that says they exist. I'd think-follownig your request above= that you'd want some proof before acknowleging that those things exist.
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"Give me a child before the age of 5 and I'll make it a Catholic for life."
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Quite interesting how a countries education system starts around the same time.... I suppose the education system is just as evil as you seem to be implying the church is...
[Updated on: Wed, 02 November 2005 08:11] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Church of FSM [message #177427 is a reply to message #177425] |
Wed, 02 November 2005 08:22 |
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Crimson
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| warranto wrote on Wed, 02 November 2005 08:08 |
Let's look at the reasons WHY people stop believing in Santa (though I assume you mean the marketing-gimic Santa as we use it today and not St. Nicholas, because he WAS a real person).
1. You parents admitted they were the ones who bought you the gifts.
2. Failing (1) occuring, the gift magically stop appearing when you are no longer in immediate contact with your parents.
These are two physical evidences that Santa (as the marketing department would want you to believe in) does not exist. This proof does not hold for the idea of God. You can't equate God to Santa. One has physical evidence to disprove the existance of, and the other has no proof for or against it.
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Of course I mean the Santa who lives in the North Pole in the stories. I fail to see much different in the fanciful notions between these two stories:
| Story 1 |
# There is a man who lives at the North Pole.
# He lives there with his wife and a bunch of elves.
# During the year, he and the elves build toys.
# Then, on Christmas Eve, he loads up a sack with all the toys.
# He puts the sack in his sleigh.
# He hitches up eight (or possibly nine) flying reindeer.
# He then flies from house to house, landing on the rooftops of each one.
# He gets out with his sack and climbs down the chimney.
# He leaves toys for the children of the household.
# He climbs back up the chimney, gets back in his sleigh, and flies to the next house.
# He does this all around the world in one night.
# Then he flies back to the North Pole to repeat the cycle next year.
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| Story 2 |
# God inseminated a virgin named Mary, in order to bring his son incarnate into our world.
# Mary and her fiancé, Joseph, had to travel to Bethlehem to register for the census. There Mary gave birth to the Son of God.
# God put a star in the sky to guide people to the baby.
# In a dream God told Joseph to take his family to Egypt. Then God stood by and watched as Herod killed thousands and thousands of babies in Israel (see Chapter 16) in an attempt to kill Jesus.
# As a man, God's son claimed that he was God incarnate: "I am the way, the truth and the life," he said (see Chapter 18).
# This man performed many miracles. He healed lots of sick people. He turned water into wine. These miracles prove that he is God.
# But he was eventually given the death sentence and killed by crucifixion.
# His body was placed in a tomb.
# But three days later, the tomb was empty.
# And the man, alive once again but still with his wounds (so anyone who doubted could see them and touch them), appeared to many people in many places.
# Then he ascended into heaven and now sits at the right hand of God the father almighty, never to be seen again.
# Today you can have a personal relationship with the Lord Jesus. You can pray to this man and he will answer your prayers. He will cure your diseases, rescue you from emergencies, help you make important business and family decisions, comfort you in times of worry and grief, etc.
# This man will also give you eternal life, and if you are good he has a place for you in heaven after you die.
# The reason we know all this is because, after the man died, four people named Matthew, Mark, Luke and John wrote accounts of the man's life. Their written attestations are proof of the veracity of this story.
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Both of these stories are filled with things that seem impossible to we us mere mortals, and yet as children, both are expressed to us as equally true.
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Infact, please stop referring to "proof" and "faith/belief" in the same sentence. The two are exclusive of one another. You can not claim to have faith in ANYTHING if you have proof of it. The reason it is called faith if because there is NO proof of it's existance.
Though I do admit you're being a bit hypocritical here. I'm sure you beleive in the existance of atoms, electrons, bacteria, etc. But tell me, have you ever seen them with your own eyes (unaided by any devices)? If you haven't then you have no PROOF of their existance. Yet you chhose to believe the person that says they exist. I'd think-follownig your request above= that you'd want some proof before acknowleging that those things exist.
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At least these other things make SENSE. I can look at diagrams of atoms and learn how they work and it all makes sense. Bacteria is in fact something I have seen through a microscope. I have seen no evidence of this "God" character.
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Quite interesting how a countries education system starts around the same time.... I suppose the education system is just as evil as you seem to be implying the church is...
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I wasn't saying the Catholic Church was evil for saying their can make a Catholic for life if the child is available to them until the age of 5. It was a reference to the sentence directly before that quote where I said: "Religion aside, I have been very interested in quantum theory lately and it's interesting to see the behaviors and thoughts that become so natural and conditioned to us."
I'm the bawss.
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| Re: Church of FSM [message #177434 is a reply to message #177362] |
Wed, 02 November 2005 10:03 |
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| Crimson wrote on Wed, 02 November 2005 01:31 |
| "Exodus Chapter 21, verse 20" |
If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.
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| "actual text" |
21:20 And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.
21:21 Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.
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Reference: http://www.cforc.com/kjv/Exodus/21.html
If the bible is in fact the word of your God then is this not him directly condoning beating your servant/maid?
And what about this blatant sexism? What other interpretation?
| "Timothy chapter 2" |
2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
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It took centuries of change to allow women an equal voice. Now we have woman CEOs, and we've have female teachers for quite a while. Aren't we all disobeying God then?
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Two SEPARATE covenants with God. Old Testament = Old Covenant. New Testament = New Covenant. There's a HUGE difference between the two, and unless you read the Bible, you won't understand.
Libertarian Party | The King's Throne | The Soda Shop
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| Re: Church of FSM [message #177466 is a reply to message #177436] |
Wed, 02 November 2005 13:29 |
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Crimson
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| warranto wrote on Wed, 02 November 2005 10:24 |
SEEM impossible. That does not mean IS impossible.
As I said before the huge difference is the availability of proof for each.
Santa: Huge amounts of proof that anyone (including children) can discover.
God: No proof either way. Hence it is a system of belief.
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So what you're saying is that in order to believe in God, you have to have belief that he exists because it can't be proven that he does. What reason or motivation is there for me as a rational thinking person to believe in this story, in this being?
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How much would you like to bet that I can make up something completely false, and make it appear to make sense? The sensibility of things does not make it absolute.
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I'm sure you can. Just because I don't HAVE to believe a science book doesn't mean I have any basis to believe in the "good book".
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Prove to me that the microscope has not been tampered with to display what people want you to see. When viewing things through a microscope, you are too depentant that it was manufactured properly, and without any "additions" being done. That is why I stated I doubt you've seen them with unaided eyes. I'm sure if you look in the right places, you'd see examples of God's work. You just seem to rely on willful blindness as "proof" of not being able to see examples of God's work.
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It would be an awesome stretch to put, say, a strand of my hair on a slide in a certain position and look at it through a microscope and see it in that same position. Then to see that hair and see it move in the scope real-time to my motions. Then, to put another slide with blood under that same microscope and see bacteria and say it's been tampered with.
Either way, though, let's say there is in fact a microprocessor in every microscope to put strange blobby things in a slide of blood when blood actually looks a different way when viewed that close. How does this prove God's existence?
Willfull blindness? Because I look at something and don't see it as "God's work"? What exactly am I blind to? Where could I see God's work and know that's exactly what it is?
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And how is this bad?
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I NEVER SAID IT WAS BAD! My point was, for the THIRD TIME, that because this "God" being is all you've known from so young that you can't even seem to fathom that *I* might in fact be right, that there is no "God" at all. You can't even FATHOM this at all, while I have, as I've said before, considered the existence of God and found no justification.
I'm the bawss.
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| Re: Church of FSM [message #177469 is a reply to message #175124] |
Wed, 02 November 2005 13:37 |
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Aircraftkiller
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| Quote: |
So what you're saying is that in order to believe in God, you have to have belief that he exists because it can't be proven that he does. What reason or motivation is there for me as a rational thinking person to believe in this story, in this being?
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Why, as a self-proclaimed rational thinking person, would you believe in everyday miracles that people take for granted? You believe that you'll make it to work safely when you drive on the interstate in the morning hours, don't you? What makes you believe something so foolish? Because you have faith in your own abilities to drive? Faith in the abilities of others? Why is faith and believe in God any more foolish, as a rational thinking person, than faith in yourself? There is, after all, no proof that you're competent beyond what the medical authorities say.
And what makes their testimony about your competency believable? Faith?
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| Re: Church of FSM [message #177524 is a reply to message #177362] |
Wed, 02 November 2005 16:20 |
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NeoSaber
Messages: 336
Registered: February 2003
Karma: 0
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Recruit |
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| Crimson wrote on Wed, 02 November 2005 02:31 |
Yeah, and of course I see right through his manipulations. In fact I would have written this information quite differently because of what I saw as blatant word twisting and assumptions. I guess I thought everyone else would see through that and still think about the content. The passages from the Bible aren't faked. You could look them up yourself and read the surrounding context.
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I did look them up myself (in a beat up old bible I have on a bookshelf). My point was you said you never read the bible right after you said it condones slavery. If you had proclaimed the bible says Jesus was God and then said you never read the bible, I'd still question it.
When it comes to what he presents, if someone resorts to attempted manipulation like that guy does, then he isn't worth listening to. If his evidence is credible, then it can stand on its own, without his insults and piss poor attempts at mind control. He discredits his own arguments by acting like that.
| Crimson wrote on Wed, 02 November 2005 02:31 |
I'm not sure what context surrounding this passage would make it any better though:
| "Exodus Chapter 21, verse 20" |
If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.
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| "actual text" |
21:20 And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.
21:21 Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.
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Reference: http://www.cforc.com/kjv/Exodus/21.html
If the bible is in fact the word of your God then is this not him directly condoning beating your servant/maid?
And what about this blatant sexism? What other interpretation?
| "Timothy chapter 2" |
2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
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It took centuries of change to allow women an equal voice. Now we have woman CEOs, and we've have female teachers for quite a while. Aren't we all disobeying God then?
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As already stated by others, the first quote comes out of the old testament, and is really irrelevant as it describes a code of conduct and law that was replaced by the new testament. It's more there as a statement of 'this happened', than it is a 'this is true'. Apparently the people who compiled the bible didn't want to hide things that looked bad on the surface. I applaud their honesty.
As to the second quote though, back up a moment to the previous few verses:
| 1 Timothy 2:8-10 |
It is my wish, then, that in every place the men should pray, lifting up holy hands, without anger or argument. Similarly, women should adorn themsleves with proper conduct, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hairstyles, and gold ornaments, or pearls or expensive clothes, but rather, as befits women who profess reverence for God, with good deeds.
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(source: the beat up New American Bible I'm looking this up in.)
Then the verses go into your quote, continuing from 'Similarly, women should'. Note how he starts by telling men to stop bitching in church, and then tells women to do the same. I admit he adds in that women shouldn't dress like whores, and it isn't clear in this part he expects the same from men (although I think we can infer he does expect the same  ). This is all a clarification to his point that men and women have to behave respectfully in church. He doesn't want people thinking these rules only apply to men, they applied to all.
Jumping ahead a little into chapter 3 we get this:
| 1 Timothy 3:8-11 |
Similarly, deacons must be dignified, not deceitful, not addicted to drink, not greedy for sordid gain, holding fast to the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience. Moreover, they should be tested first; then, if there is nothing against them, let them serve as deacons. Women, similarly, should be dignified, not slanderers, but temperate and faithful in everything.
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Again, we see people being told about proper conduct in church and life, and then he adds "Yes, I mean this applies to women too! Don't be a dumb-ass, Timothy!"
It should be noted that when I refer to the writer of this letter (that's what this particular book in the bible is, a letter) I'm not saying 'He', I'm saying 'he'. No where in the bible does it say God wrote this letter and sent it to Timothy, it's the 1st letter of Paul to Timothy. It's what Paul, a follower of Christ, had to say on the subject. I don't understand why you, or that Michael Moore wannabe, insist on saying that all this is the direct word of God when the bible itself says Paul is the author of this particular book. Yes Paul may have been inspired by God, or used the teachings of Christ in the writing of this letter, but still, it is filtered through a man and not the direct statements of God. Anyone who read this part of the Bible, and not just looked up quotes off a website, should be able to see that.
The bible was written by many people over a long period of time. By looking at the underlying philosophy they all shared, instead of getting "stuck on stupid" with the interpretations of those time periods, you can see the real message plain as day. It's the main reason there are 4 gospels instead of one. The teachings of Jesus were a little too important to rely on one person's account of them. Just as in a courtroom, witnesses state how they saw things, the bible is filled with people telling it 'like they saw it'. Declaring every last word to be God's direct statement is ridiculous. All it proves is a person doesn't understand the bible.
NeoSaber
Renegade Map Maker at CnC Source
Animator/Compiler/Level Editor/Object Rigger/Programmer for Red Alert: A Path Beyond
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