Home » General Discussions » Heated Discussions and Debates » Hurricane Katrina Aftermath
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| Re: Hurricane Katrina Aftermath [message #169927 is a reply to message #169791] |
Thu, 08 September 2005 13:40   |
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SuperFlyingEngi
Messages: 1756
Registered: November 2003
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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| ACK |
Global warming is a theory, not a fact. There is no conclusive evidence that humans are causing the planetary environment to change even more than slightly. Furthermore our understanding of climate and weather is still rather undeveloped, so to blame this on global warming and somehow link it to the President, as if it is his fault that third world nations produce more pollution and garbage than we do, is completely off base and in line with your usual retarded writing.
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Gosh, then I wonder why all the real scientists think it is...
And funny thing is, I quite honestly believe that the U.S. is the largest polluter/garbage disposer in the world. They are the largest energy consumer, I know that. And I think the other two follow pretty closely.
| ACK |
The President's job is not to be a coordinator in national disasters. That is the job of the director of FEMA and the government officials in the states affected by said disasters. Read the Constitution sometime, maybe you'll get a clue then.
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The President's job is to make sure everything works. He can do more than sit on the sidelines when an organization like FEMA does a terrible job because it's headed by a horse-racing organizer.
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That link reeks of bias in so many forms. Do you have another timeline that isn't soaked with so much hate for one man?
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The thing is a timetable of what happened. THAT IS NOT BIASED. Just because you don't like that Bush took a birthday cake photo op doesn't mean it's bad reporting or time-table creating to say he did.
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As for the people blaming a natural disaster on a generally oblivious president... lol. That's pretty patheic.
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Surely you weren't insinuating that those are my views...
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -- Theodore Roosevelt (1918)
"The danger to political dissent is acute where the Government attempts to act under so vague a concept as the power to protect "domestic security." Given the difficulty of defining the domestic security interest, the danger of abuse in acting to protect that interest becomes apparent. --U.S. Supreme Court decision (407 U.S. 297 (1972)
The Liberal Media At Work
An objective look at media partisanship
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| Re: Hurricane Katrina Aftermath [message #169933 is a reply to message #168787] |
Thu, 08 September 2005 14:06 |
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SuperFlyingEngi
Messages: 1756
Registered: November 2003
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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Then if when you say "the people" you reference me, you would be sadly mistaken in your views.
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -- Theodore Roosevelt (1918)
"The danger to political dissent is acute where the Government attempts to act under so vague a concept as the power to protect "domestic security." Given the difficulty of defining the domestic security interest, the danger of abuse in acting to protect that interest becomes apparent. --U.S. Supreme Court decision (407 U.S. 297 (1972)
The Liberal Media At Work
An objective look at media partisanship
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| Re: Hurricane Katrina Aftermath [message #169941 is a reply to message #168787] |
Thu, 08 September 2005 14:46 |
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SuperFlyingEngi
Messages: 1756
Registered: November 2003
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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Well, now I know how one more person on this forum talks...
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -- Theodore Roosevelt (1918)
"The danger to political dissent is acute where the Government attempts to act under so vague a concept as the power to protect "domestic security." Given the difficulty of defining the domestic security interest, the danger of abuse in acting to protect that interest becomes apparent. --U.S. Supreme Court decision (407 U.S. 297 (1972)
The Liberal Media At Work
An objective look at media partisanship
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| Re: Hurricane Katrina Aftermath [message #169949 is a reply to message #168787] |
Thu, 08 September 2005 15:32 |
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SuperFlyingEngi
Messages: 1756
Registered: November 2003
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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Generally I don't bother reading your crackbrained bullshit. Since you bring it up twice though, no, I would not agree with the NY times if it said funding levees were a waste of money. Care to show me the article?
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -- Theodore Roosevelt (1918)
"The danger to political dissent is acute where the Government attempts to act under so vague a concept as the power to protect "domestic security." Given the difficulty of defining the domestic security interest, the danger of abuse in acting to protect that interest becomes apparent. --U.S. Supreme Court decision (407 U.S. 297 (1972)
The Liberal Media At Work
An objective look at media partisanship
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| Re: Hurricane Katrina Aftermath [message #169951 is a reply to message #169949] |
Thu, 08 September 2005 15:39 |
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| SuperFlyingEngi wrote on Thu, 08 September 2005 17:32 |
Generally I don't bother reading your crackbrained bullshit. Since you bring it up twice though, no, I would not agree with the NY times if it said funding levees were a waste of money. Care to show me the article?
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Funny you should say that because I'm much more liberal than the rest of everybody else debating you. Is this a gateway to show that even you think that what you believe in is crackbrained bullshit?
I didn't say you would agree NOW, but I guarantee you that you did or would have when it first came out. I'd also find the article, but I'm not willing to pay $4 an article to find that it's not even the correct one, let alone pay $4 for that bullshit article.
Libertarian Party | The King's Throne | The Soda Shop
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| Re: Hurricane Katrina Aftermath [message #169952 is a reply to message #168787] |
Thu, 08 September 2005 15:52 |
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Aircraftkiller
Messages: 8213
Registered: February 2003
Karma: 0
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General (5 Stars) |
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Gosh, then I wonder why all the real scientists think it is...
And funny thing is, I quite honestly believe that the U.S. is the largest polluter/garbage disposer in the world. They are the largest energy consumer, I know that. And I think the other two follow pretty closely.
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I don't care about what you believe, what you believe is not a fact. Belief in global warming and belief in lies is not a plausible argument.
Lets dissect this timeline so you can get an idea of why it's biased:
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AFTERNOON — BUSH, BROWN, CHERTOFF WARNED OF LEVEE FAILURE BY NATIONAL HURRICANE CENTER DIRECTOR: Dr. Max Mayfield, director of the National Hurricane Center: “‘We were briefing them way before landfall. … It’s not like this was a surprise. We had in the advisories that the levee could be topped.’” [Times-Picayune; St. Petersburg Times]
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Notice it never says anything about the governor or local\state officals being briefed about leevee failure. There's the first count of bias, the Democrat governor of Louisiana gets away without scrutiny, on a site called "thinkprogress". Odd, don't you think?
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MORNING — BUSH CALLS SECRETARY CHERTOFF TO DISCUSS IMMIGRATION: “I spoke to Mike Chertoff today — he’s the head of the Department of Homeland Security. I knew people would want me to discuss this issue [immigration], so we got us an airplane on — a telephone on Air Force One, so I called him. I said, are you working with the governor? He said, you bet we are.” [White House]
MORNING – BUSH SHARES BIRTHDAY CAKE PHOTO-OP WITH SEN. JOHN MCCAIN [White House]
10AM — BUSH VISITS ARIZONA RESORT TO PROMOTE MEDICARE DRUG BENEFIT: “This new bill I signed says, if you’re a senior and you like the way things are today, you’re in good shape, don’t change. But, by the way, there’s a lot of different options for you. And we’re here to talk about what that means to our seniors.” [White House]
LATE MORNING – LEVEE BREACHED: “A large section of the vital 17th Street Canal levee, where it connects to the brand new ‘hurricane proof’ Old Hammond Highway bridge, gave way late Monday morning in Bucktown after Katrina’s fiercest winds were well north.” [Times-Picayune]
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Where was the governor of Louisiana during all of this? The mayor? What was he doing? Why isn't it documented? Why are the only things they've said about the hurricane, as if the only thing they did was focus on it? Is this definitive proof of the governor and mayor doing their jobs, or is it to cover up the possibility that they did nothing? There's number two.
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2PM — BUSH TRAVELS TO CALIFORNIA SENIOR CENTER TO DISCUSS MEDICARE DRUG BENEFIT: “We’ve got some folks up here who are concerned about their Social Security or Medicare. Joan Geist is with us. … I could tell — she was looking at me when I first walked in the room to meet her, she was wondering whether or not old George W. is going to take away her Social Security check.” [White House]
9PM — RUMSFELD ATTENDS SAN DIEGO PADRES BASEBALL GAME: Rumsfeld “joined Padres President John Moores in the owner’s box…at Petco Park.” [Editor & Publisher]
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Again, where's the governor, where's the mayor, why aren't we told about what they're up to during this time? At this point, so much information being shown about the President and his officials shows that the site is already biased against him, and not against those who are supporting their points of view. There's the third check for my argument.
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9AM – BUSH SPEAKS ON IRAQ AT NAVAL BASE CORONADO [White House]
MIDDAY – CHERTOFF FINALLY BECOMES AWARE THAT LEVEE HAS FAILED: “It was on Tuesday that the levee–may have been overnight Monday to Tuesday–that the levee started to break. And it was midday Tuesday that I became aware of the fact that there was no possibility of plugging the gap and that essentially the lake was going to start to drain into the city.” [Meet the Press, 9/4/05]
PENTAGON CLAIMS THERE ARE ENOUGH NATIONAL GUARD TROOPS IN REGION: “Pentagon spokesman Lawrence Di Rita said the states have adequate National Guard units to handle the hurricane needs.” [WWL-TV]
MASS LOOTING REPORTED, SECURITY SHORTAGE CITED: “The looting is out of control. The French Quarter has been attacked,” Councilwoman Jackie Clarkson said. “We’re using exhausted, scarce police to control looting when they should be used for search and rescue while we still have people on rooftops.” [AP]
U.S.S. BATAAN SITS OFF SHORE, VIRTUALLY UNUSED: “The USS Bataan, a 844-foot ship designed to dispatch Marines in amphibious assaults, has helicopters, doctors, hospital beds, food and water. It also can make its own water, up to 100,000 gallons a day. And it just happened to be in the Gulf of Mexico when Katrina came roaring ashore. The Bataan rode out the storm and then followed it toward shore, awaiting relief orders. Helicopter pilots flying from its deck were some of the first to begin plucking stranded New Orleans residents. But now the Bataan’s hospital facilities, including six operating rooms and beds for 600 patients, are empty.” [Chicago Tribune]
3PM – PRESIDENT BUSH PLAYS GUITAR WITH COUNTRY SINGER MARK WILLIS [AP]
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Why are the "damning" pieces of evidence against the President, his officials, and the military shown sandwiched between 3 PM and 9 AM, without timestamps, and obviously not happening within that timeframe? Number four.
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TENS OF THOUSANDS TRAPPED IN SUPERDOME; CONDITIONS DETERIORATE: “A 2-year-old girl slept in a pool of urine. Crack vials littered a restroom. Blood stained the walls next to vending machines smashed by teenagers. ‘We pee on the floor. We are like animals,’ said Taffany Smith, 25, as she cradled her 3-week-old son, Terry. … By Wednesday, it had degenerated into horror. … At least two people, including a child, have been raped. At least three people have died, including one man who jumped 50 feet to his death, saying he had nothing left to live for. There is no sanitation. The stench is overwhelming.”" [Los Angeles Times, 9/1/05]
PRESIDENT BUSH FINALLY ORGANIZES TASK FORCE TO COORDINATE FEDERAL RESPONSE: Bush says on Tuesday he will “fly to Washington to begin work…with a task force that will coordinate the work of 14 federal agencies involved in the relief effort.” [New York Times, 8/31/05]
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Notice the two headlines. Put them together, then read them again. Bias? I think so. This wasn't the President's job.
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JEFFERSON PARISH EMERGENCY DIRECTOR SAYS FOOD AND WATER SUPPLY GONE: “Director Walter Maestri: FEMA and national agencies not delivering the help nearly as fast as it is needed.” [WWL-TV]
80,000 BELIEVED STRANDED IN NEW ORLEANS: Former Mayor Sidney Barthelemy “estimated 80,000 were trapped in the flooded city and urged President Bush to send more troops.” [Reuters]
3,000 STRANDED AT CONVENTION CENTER WITHOUT FOOD OR WATER: “With 3,000 or more evacuees stranded at the convention center — and with no apparent contingency plan or authority to deal with them — collecting a body was no one’s priority. … Some had been at the convention center since Tuesday morning but had received no food, water or instructions.” [Times-Picayune]
5PM — BUSH GIVES FIRST MAJOR ADDRESS ON KATRINA: “Nothing about the president’s demeanor… — which seemed casual to the point of carelessness — suggested that he understood the depth of the current crisis.” [New York Times]
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Number five. Know why? Three timeline events without any sort of link between them, except the biased viewpoint of the people who work on that site. It doesn't matter if it's fair reporting - go ahead and demonize the President because we don't like him or what he believes. We think he did a bad job, so we'll make it look like that.
There is more evidence in there... If you wish I will post the rest. I think the above makes my case perfectly. Since idiots like you are so easily led into things, here's a perfect quote:
"The people only believe what the media tells them to believe, and I tell the media what to believe. It's really quite simple."
Kane
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| Re: Hurricane Katrina Aftermath [message #169957 is a reply to message #168787] |
Thu, 08 September 2005 16:06 |
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Doitle
Messages: 1723
Registered: February 2003
Location: Chicago, IL
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star)
Moderator/Captain |
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"CHICAGO, IL - CTA Driver Strike Iminent
In a recent move for better benefits drivers accross the entire CTA line have threatened a strike unless they are met halfway by CTA officials. The implications of this run deep as the CTA system is the prefered method of a large portion of Chicagos estimated 1.1 million commuters each day. Both sides blame President Bush for not offering to settle the difference between the two sides out of pocket, and letting the CTA Drivers spend the summer on vacation in the whitehouse. Jesse Jackson was on the scene, supposedly representing the african american CTA drivers. He was heard to remark 'This is another example of the white Bush keeping the black man down. Mr President, We will not stand for your racism. After you commanded your hellish Hurricaine upon the black of New Orleans. Now you try to tear down the black workers in the CTA with your oppression.' No one at the scene knew what the fuck he was talking about for the most part but the general consensus was an agreement with the reverend that it was all the President's fault."
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htt://www.chicagotribune.com/sections/politics/local/article ?id=8675409
This is just crap look at this article I pulled. Everyone is just trying to find stuff to blame on the President. Why can't anyone take any damn responsibility anymore. The Ancient Persians were Defeated by Alexander the Great because of BUSH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[Updated on: Thu, 08 September 2005 16:11] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Hurricane Katrina Aftermath [message #169978 is a reply to message #168787] |
Thu, 08 September 2005 17:50 |
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NukeIt15
Messages: 987
Registered: February 2003
Location: Out to lunch
Karma: 0
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Colonel |
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Considering that it has been a well-known fact for some time (read that: for ~50-60 years or so) that the levees were woefully inadequate for their task, it hardly seems reasonable to only blame the current administration for their failure. It is a glaring problem that has been overlooked, ignored, and pushed aside for a very, very long time. Whose fault is that? Mainly the state and local government, but also EVERY administration from the moment they first knew the things needed upgrading until now.
Bush is like the last guy in the bar who go stuck with the check- it is only PARTIALLY his responsibility, but everyone else shirked theirs so it all ends up falling to him. The levees failed on his watch, so naturally it must be entirely his fault, right? Wrong. He's justt he guy who has to take the publicity hit from it; in reality the past ten presidents or so and countless members of congress tossed aside the same problem. The simple fact is that the same thing could have happened to any of them had a Cat 4 smacked NO during that time.
But it didn't, did it? Surely, Mr. Bush got caught with his pants down. But that isn't to say that anyone else never let their guard down- perfect Mr. Clinton didn't do jack shit to fix the problem either, a detail which will be carefully omitted by those trying to use this disaster to further a political agenda. To those people: you make me sick. Go do something to help instead of pissing and moaning about how the President did the exact same thing every president for the past half a century has done. Yes, it was an oversight, but the point is that it could have happened at ANY time, and we would have had the exact same mess on our hands.
And the biggest goat-fuck-up of this whole affair STILL lies witht he local government, which had on hand several hundred busses to use in an evacuation- yet failed to deploy ANY of them. If you really want to point fingers, point them at the people who could have prevented this from happening, but didn't.
"Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. Horrid mischief would ensue were (the law-abiding) deprived of the use of them." - Thomas Paine
Remember, kids: illiteracy is cool. If you took the time to read this, you are clearly a loser who will never get laid. You've been warned.
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| Re: Hurricane Katrina Aftermath [message #169980 is a reply to message #169957] |
Thu, 08 September 2005 18:47 |
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| Doitle wrote on Thu, 08 September 2005 19:06 |
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"CHICAGO, IL - CTA Driver Strike Iminent
In a recent move for better benefits drivers accross the entire CTA line have threatened a strike unless they are met halfway by CTA officials. The implications of this run deep as the CTA system is the prefered method of a large portion of Chicagos estimated 1.1 million commuters each day. Both sides blame President Bush for not offering to settle the difference between the two sides out of pocket, and letting the CTA Drivers spend the summer on vacation in the whitehouse. Jesse Jackson was on the scene, supposedly representing the african american CTA drivers. He was heard to remark 'This is another example of the white Bush keeping the black man down. Mr President, We will not stand for your racism. After you commanded your hellish Hurricaine upon the black of New Orleans. Now you try to tear down the black workers in the CTA with your oppression.' No one at the scene knew what the fuck he was talking about for the most part but the general consensus was an agreement with the reverend that it was all the President's fault."
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htt://www.chicagotribune.com/sections/politics/local/article ?id=8675409
This is just crap look at this article I pulled. Everyone is just trying to find stuff to blame on the President. Why can't anyone take any damn responsibility anymore. The Ancient Persians were Defeated by Alexander the Great because of BUSH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Of course nobody took responsibility, it's Chicago. Hired truck scandal ring a bell?
"God isn't on our side either, cuz he hates idiots also."
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| Re: Hurricane Katrina Aftermath [message #169990 is a reply to message #168787] |
Thu, 08 September 2005 20:10 |
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Crimson
Messages: 7427
Registered: February 2003
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Karma: 0
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General (5 Stars)
ADMINISTRATOR |
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I can definitely agree that the timeline there is slanted towards Bush GREATLY. Unfortunately for me, I only screened the first couple of lines which showed the timeline leading up to the hurricane. Sorry about that.
I'm the bawss.
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| Re: Hurricane Katrina Aftermath [message #170994 is a reply to message #169990] |
Sun, 11 September 2005 11:00 |
msgtpain
Messages: 663
Registered: March 2003
Location: Montana
Karma: 0
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Colonel |
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| Crimson wrote on Thu, 08 September 2005 23:10 |
I can definitely agree that the timeline there is slanted towards Bush GREATLY. Unfortunately for me, I only screened the first couple of lines which showed the timeline leading up to the hurricane. Sorry about that.
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Here's a better timeline from the Washington Post.. It's quite a bit longer, but it explains every little detail they could find instead of just "Bush has cake with McCain"
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9286534/
I know that as this turns in to the "Blame Game".. Democrats really want to make you believe that it was Bush's fault, he had the power to act and failed (intentionally).. However, Bush had been requesting that Blanco allow Federal takeover as early as Monday, and quite a few times in between; Every request, she denied --- stating that she had it under control. On Friday, even his own cabinet had a heated argument about the true legalities (and impression) of the President making a forceful takeover from a Democratic Governor via the Insurrection Act.
You have to take in to account exactly what a full, mandatory, forceful evacuation could have done. This area has been on the "watch" for this storm for 40 years. They had "warned" and evacuated many times in the past, but Hurricanes aren't predictable and the local/state governments simply weren't willing to take that route, just in case the storm bypassed them. In fact, they were worrying about the liabilities they would be taking on if they did just that. You can't deny the possibility of billions of dollars of law-suits on the heels of a false alarm forced evacuation. <- Maybe this is one of the things they should look in to in the aftermath discussions; maybe some sort of federal protection against this, alleviating administrators concerns over carrying one out.
New Orleans had in place a disaster plan which called for the city and state to evacuate the poor and elderly in the city via busses; the topic came up and Nagin actually made the decision himself NOT to follow their own evacuation plan. Amtrak offered assistance in transporting people out on their last few trains, Nagin turned them down too. Their own disaster plan called for public buss removal of all these people and it stated very clearly that it would take a minimum of 72 hours at best to carry out this plan. On Saturday, they were still discussing what they wanted to do with their city.
I just don't think people understand what it takes to have millions of tons of supplies ready and waiting on the outskirts of a disaster area, then to have 100% of all communications knocked out of the area you are trying to aid. I'm sort of left wondering why they didn't commandeer all the reporters satellite equipment for the emergency response; would anyone have cried about the First Amendment if they had? Or would you think it was a really good idea?
The bottom line is, the ONLY way to have avoided the human suffering in this scenario is to have 100% of the humans out of the affected area. Once that didn't happen, it was up to the Mayor and Governor to coordinate the disaster UNTIL they themselves became overwhelmed and ASKED the Federal Government to take over; they flat out refused this transaction.
I do agree that FEMA was slow in their response, it shouldn't take 48 hours to have personnel on site in a disaster like this, but I do also recognize the chaos which was going on and I can't fault them for being able to supply a city with millions of tons of supplies in a day; a city which was under water and out of communication.
To me, this was simply a failure on ALL levels: local, city, state and Federal in carrying out the disaster plans which we as tax payers have spent billions of dollars to create and which thousands of people have spent years practicing and preparing for. But then I have to also wonder, are they correct that they could be held liable for carrying them out and being wrong? Could those same localities, cities and States be sued by those very people they were attempting to protect, if they didn't end up needing the protection? THAT should definitely be resolved, if it is true.
[Updated on: Sun, 11 September 2005 11:25] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Hurricane Katrina Aftermath [message #171490 is a reply to message #168787] |
Tue, 13 September 2005 17:45 |
PhantomScope
Messages: 8
Registered: September 2005
Karma: 0
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Recruit |
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As much as I dilike Bush, I won't condem him for the measures that the populace could have taken, given about half had need to stick around for various reasons. There were buses in NO before the hurricane hit that were meant for evacuation. 2 of about 14 were filled.
Also the states self-government had been inform on the severity before it hit them, which would have been ideal time to prep Medical assistance and other emergency services, given it might have not been able to accomodate the bulk of the need it would have sustained the survivors and all for enough time for help to arrive.
As for the budget cuts you have to take in mind the debt that has been generated in America. The economy was beginning to recover from depression but it banked for the worse after this disaster. So all in all the money we would want to pour into this is just not availible unless taxes are increased on an already strained budget [for most]
I admit this is a fairly narrow view but it's my take on how bad the efficiancy was in this unfortunate event.
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