Home » General Discussions » General Discussion » Renegade X - 0.40 Launch!
| Re: Renegade X - 0.40 Launch! [message #410892 is a reply to message #410887] |
Sun, 15 November 2009 15:01   |
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GEORGE ZIMMER
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| Goztow wrote on Sun, 15 November 2009 15:35 |
If you make art and mrl even, then you also need to make med and light even, and then u need to make the mammy as good as flamers and stanks combined. Maybe it's better to play GDI vs GDI and Nod vs Nod then.
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Light tank and med are on the same playing field- both MBT's etc, flame tank and stealth tank fill more specific niches, although I guess the flame tank could be considered Nod's "mammoth tank".
Do note that in TD, Artillery and MRLS's were NOT equal even... MRLS's were BETTER. But in Renegade, that order's reversed... thus, it leads to a shitton of arty whoring. If Nod had SSM's, this wouldn't a problem. Until then though, it's best if they're equal.
Toggle Spoiler| Scrin wrote on Sat, 24 January 2009 13:22 |
| cAmpa wrote on Sat, 24 January 2009 12:45 |
Scrin, stop pming people to get the building bars.
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FUCK YOU AND THIS SHIT GAME WITH YOUR SCRIPTS!!! I HAVE ASKING YOU AND ANOTHER NOOBS HERE ABOUT HELP WITH THAT BUILDING ICONS FEATURES FOR YEARS, BUT YOU KEEP IGNORING ME AND KEEP WRITE SHIT, SO BURN YOU AND YOUR ASSLICKERS FRIENDS, THIS TIME I'M NOT COME BACK!!!!!!!!!   
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| Re: Renegade X - 0.40 Launch! [message #410893 is a reply to message #410728] |
Sun, 15 November 2009 15:03 |
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[NE]Fobby[GEN]
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I'm afraid it doesn't work like that Gozy. The Light, Flamer, and Stealth Tank all specialize in certain tasks, while the Medium Tank is a general-task vehicle. The Med balances out with those 3 Nod vehicles, and the Mammoth doesn't have any direct counterparts.
The only difference now is the MRLS/Arties are balanced, and the two soldiers are balanced. I do understand that the MRLS is now used more now (like the Arty), but that's what happens when you make a unit useful. If both the Artillery and MRLS were 450 credits, one should not be a lot better than the other. They should be relatively the same in their usefulness, but play differently.
It's not like the two vehicles play exactly the same - one shoots 6 slow missiles that collectively damage more, and the other shoots artillery shells that travel faster, but damage less. Their reloads times are also different. Those two vehicles are still very different, they just balance out properly. That's better than making the GDI soldier better than the Nod one, both in damage and in the size of its head, because that seems a lot more like a last-minute balance adjustment than a fully planned out gameplay element. Otherwise, they would've made the guns look different.
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[Updated on: Sun, 15 November 2009 15:05] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Renegade X - 0.40 Launch! [message #410894 is a reply to message #410893] |
Sun, 15 November 2009 15:08 |
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GEORGE ZIMMER
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| [NE |
Fobby[GEN] wrote on Sun, 15 November 2009 16:03]I'm afraid it doesn't work like that Gozy. The Light, Flamer, and Stealth Tank all specialize in certain tasks, while the Medium Tank is a general-task vehicle. The Med balances out with those 3 Nod vehicles, and the Mammoth doesn't have any direct counterparts.
The only difference now is the MRLS/Arties are balanced, and the two soldiers are balanced. I do understand that the MRLS is now used more now (like the Arty), but that's what happens when you make a unit useful. If both the Artillery and MRLS were 450 credits, one should not be a lot better than the other. They should be relatively the same in their usefulness, but play differently.
It's not like the two vehicles play exactly the same - one shoots 6 slow missiles that collectively damage more, and the other shoots artillery shells that travel faster, but damage less. Their reloads times are also different. Those two vehicles are still very different, they just balance out properly. That's better than making the GDI soldier better than the Nod one, both in damage and in the size of its head, because that seems a lot more like a last-minute balance adjustment than a fully planned out gameplay element. Otherwise, they would've made the guns look different.
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Agreed. Renegade has a good lot of balance, but it's not perfect.
Toggle Spoiler| Scrin wrote on Sat, 24 January 2009 13:22 |
| cAmpa wrote on Sat, 24 January 2009 12:45 |
Scrin, stop pming people to get the building bars.
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FUCK YOU AND THIS SHIT GAME WITH YOUR SCRIPTS!!! I HAVE ASKING YOU AND ANOTHER NOOBS HERE ABOUT HELP WITH THAT BUILDING ICONS FEATURES FOR YEARS, BUT YOU KEEP IGNORING ME AND KEEP WRITE SHIT, SO BURN YOU AND YOUR ASSLICKERS FRIENDS, THIS TIME I'M NOT COME BACK!!!!!!!!!
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| Re: Renegade X - 0.40 Launch! [message #410916 is a reply to message #410728] |
Sun, 15 November 2009 20:34 |
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R315r4z0r
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Clarification:
Balance ≠ Symmetry
The Artillery and MRLS are now more closely balanced in terms of power and effectiveness, but are also totally different in terms of usage and value.
The Artillery is still better well rounded than the MRLS:
-It can effectively attack vehicles, infantry, as well as structures. The MRLS mainly effective against vehicles and structures.
-It can defend against close range attackers and can win against infantry in close range combat. The MRLS is hardly effective at close range and is hopeless against infantry.
-Weapon is easier to control than the MRLS'.
But even with the obvious advantages the artillery has over the MRLS in terms of usage, the MRLS is still balanced because it is more effective at what it does than the artillery is.
-It can do sudden, powerful bursts of damage on enemies and structures.
-It can lock on and track moving targets.
-It can curve its shots around bends.
Therefore, the two vehicles are completely balanced, but through different forms of usage.
[Updated on: Sun, 15 November 2009 20:36] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Renegade X - 0.40 Launch! [message #410922 is a reply to message #410916] |
Sun, 15 November 2009 22:28 |
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Dover
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| R315r4z0r wrote on Sun, 15 November 2009 19:34 |
-It can do sudden, powerful bursts of damage on enemies and structures.
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No it doesn't. The rockets take forever to hit anything. How is that sudden. I can get from the river to the mouth of the Nod base before I'm in danger of getting hit.
| R315r4z0r wrote on Sun, 15 November 2009 19:34 |
-It can lock on and track moving targets.
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It's a pretty retarded lock, and again, since the rockets take forever to get to their target, this is something they need if an MRLS driver is to hit anything. This isn't an advantage, just (shitty) compensation for a huge disadvantage.
| R315r4z0r wrote on Sun, 15 November 2009 19:34 |
-It can curve its shots around bends.
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This is of dubious value.
| R315r4z0r wrote on Sun, 15 November 2009 19:34 |
Therefore, the two vehicles are completely balanced, but through different forms of usage. [/color]
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The two are NOT balanced. Not even close.
You also left out how the Artillery has the huge splash radius that the MRLS sorely lacks, giving the arty a greater ability to damage repair-monkeys behind the enemy tank line. That gives the Nod side a huge advantage in breaking sieges and in tank-on-tank engangements.
Also, I believe the Artillery has a higher DPS than the MRLS (Which, if true, would make them better for attacking buildings). I'm not sure if that's correct, though. Spoony or someone could shed some light.
| DarkDemin wrote on Thu, 03 August 2006 19:19 |
Remember kids the internet is serious business.
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| Re: Renegade X - 0.40 Launch! [message #410929 is a reply to message #410728] |
Mon, 16 November 2009 00:42 |
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Goztow
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In renegade, the MRL is generally used as a support vehicle, and to gain time until one can go up one tier to mediums. GDI is all about armour.
Nod generally lacks armour on all its vehicles. Therefor it has more firepower in its lower tier. The main objective, which works out just like it should with pointsfix (oh no, here we go again), for Nod is to harass GDI until they're out of money and then bring in the dead streak, usually being flamers or stanks. The main objective for GDI is to secure their economy and then bring in the dead streak, usually meds / ions.
In renegade, the difference between soldiers and mrl / art isn't just a matter of balance between those units, it's a matter of balance between different gaming styles. By "balancing" the mrl and art out to eachother, you kind of break the Renegade fight for economy. The mistake you make ion your reasoning is that mediums and lights/stanks/flamers balance eachother out. They never do. In a fight between medium tanks and lights/stanks/flamers on standard maps, medium tanks will always win. Always. It's just a matter of keeping the playing field closed. And the more players there are in the game, the more this will be true.
But then again, as long as you don't implement pointsfix in Renegade-X, the complete economy will be broken anyway because one can gain 100's of credits by shooting a vehicle without damaging it.
I'm not trying to convince you to change Renegade-X. I understood you want it to be different than Renegade and I personally see this as a positive thing. I'm just trying to explain to you how I experience the impact of your changes.
You can find me in The KOSs2 (TK2) discord while I'm playing. Feel free to come and say hi! TK2 discord
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| Re: Renegade X - 0.40 Launch! [message #410942 is a reply to message #410929] |
Mon, 16 November 2009 05:20 |
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EvilWhiteDragon
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| Goztow wrote on Mon, 16 November 2009 08:42 |
In renegade, the MRL is generally used as a support vehicle, and to gain time until one can go up one tier to mediums. GDI is all about armour.
Nod generally lacks armour on all its vehicles. Therefor it has more firepower in its lower tier. The main objective, which works out just like it should with pointsfix (oh no, here we go again), for Nod is to harass GDI until they're out of money and then bring in the dead streak, usually being flamers or stanks. The main objective for GDI is to secure their economy and then bring in the dead streak, usually meds / ions.
In renegade, the difference between soldiers and mrl / art isn't just a matter of balance between those units, it's a matter of balance between different gaming styles. By "balancing" the mrl and art out to eachother, you kind of break the Renegade fight for economy. The mistake you make ion your reasoning is that mediums and lights/stanks/flamers balance eachother out. They never do. In a fight between medium tanks and lights/stanks/flamers on standard maps, medium tanks will always win. Always. It's just a matter of keeping the playing field closed. And the more players there are in the game, the more this will be true.
But then again, as long as you don't implement pointsfix in Renegade-X, the complete economy will be broken anyway because one can gain 100's of credits by shooting a vehicle without damaging it.
I'm not trying to convince you to change Renegade-X. I understood you want it to be different than Renegade and I personally see this as a positive thing. I'm just trying to explain to you how I experience the impact of your changes.
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The irony is that they claim to implement the pointbug (because 'everyone' wants it) and in the meanwhile they do the easy thing, implement renepoints with pointfix....
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| Re: Renegade X - 0.40 Launch! [message #410965 is a reply to message #410922] |
Mon, 16 November 2009 09:43 |
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R315r4z0r
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| Dover wrote on Mon, 16 November 2009 00:28 |
Misread quotes and responses| R315r4z0r wrote on Sun, 15 November 2009 19:34 |
-It can do sudden, powerful bursts of damage on enemies and structures.
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No it doesn't. The rockets take forever to hit anything. How is that sudden. I can get from the river to the mouth of the Nod base before I'm in danger of getting hit.
| R315r4z0r wrote on Sun, 15 November 2009 19:34 |
-It can lock on and track moving targets.
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It's a pretty retarded lock, and again, since the rockets take forever to get to their target, this is something they need if an MRLS driver is to hit anything. This isn't an advantage, just (shitty) compensation for a huge disadvantage.
| R315r4z0r wrote on Sun, 15 November 2009 19:34 |
-It can curve its shots around bends.
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This is of dubious value.
| R315r4z0r wrote on Sun, 15 November 2009 19:34 |
Therefore, the two vehicles are completely balanced, but through different forms of usage. [/color]
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The two are NOT balanced. Not even close.
You also left out how the Artillery has the huge splash radius that the MRLS sorely lacks, giving the arty a greater ability to damage repair-monkeys behind the enemy tank line. That gives the Nod side a huge advantage in breaking sieges and in tank-on-tank engangements.
Also, I believe the Artillery has a higher DPS than the MRLS (Which, if true, would make them better for attacking buildings). I'm not sure if that's correct, though. Spoony or someone could shed some light.
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I'm talking about Renegade X's version of the MRLS.
[Updated on: Mon, 16 November 2009 09:45] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Renegade X - 0.40 Launch! [message #410995 is a reply to message #410728] |
Mon, 16 November 2009 13:04 |
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[NE]Fobby[GEN]
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| Quote: |
But then again, as long as you don't implement pointsfix in Renegade-X, the complete economy will be broken anyway because one can gain 100's of credits by shooting a vehicle without damaging it.
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This kind of proves that you don't play Renegade X. We implement a system very similar to pointsfix. If you didn't know that, then how could you make such detailed statements as to how our mod sucks?
Unreal Tournament 3 Total Conversion to C&C: Renegade
Check out Renegade X Today!
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| Re: Renegade X - 0.40 Launch! [message #411029 is a reply to message #411000] |
Mon, 16 November 2009 16:06 |
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[NE]Fobby[GEN]
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| EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Mon, 16 November 2009 15:15 |
| [NE |
Fobby[GEN] wrote on Mon, 16 November 2009 21:04]| Quote: |
But then again, as long as you don't implement pointsfix in Renegade-X, the complete economy will be broken anyway because one can gain 100's of credits by shooting a vehicle without damaging it.
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This kind of proves that you don't play Renegade X. We implement a system very similar to pointsfix. If you didn't know that, then how could you make such detailed statements as to how our mod sucks?
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Because you claimed that you would implement the bugged system. Probably to get good PR with at the time the pointfix was (again) under discussion.
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Do you really think I pay attention to those discussions? I've never posted in any of them, especially not as we were preparing for the mod's release (I was busy for obvious reasons). I barely even visit non-General Discussion boards here.
The mod simply changed its position on the issue after an internal discussion about it.
I love how you guys picture us as these evil masterminds, overlooking everything, slaying community members at night in the goal to kill Renegade forever. It's a fucking gameplay element that won't effect anyone who doesn't play it.
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Check out Renegade X Today!
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| Re: Renegade X - 0.40 Launch! [message #411124 is a reply to message #411075] |
Tue, 17 November 2009 08:51 |
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GEORGE ZIMMER
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| Havoc 89 wrote on Mon, 16 November 2009 23:26 |
We have neither the flawed points fix or the original points system, we have our own but then again people whom dont play the mod wont know that, but will only talk trash based on words.
Really the problem is that some are so fixated on literlly everything (including the flaws) that they simply wont accept any change that improves the game, and only for the sole reason that it is different then the original.
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That's good to hear. How exactly will the points system be set up, if you don't mind me asking?
Toggle Spoiler| Scrin wrote on Sat, 24 January 2009 13:22 |
| cAmpa wrote on Sat, 24 January 2009 12:45 |
Scrin, stop pming people to get the building bars.
|
FUCK YOU AND THIS SHIT GAME WITH YOUR SCRIPTS!!! I HAVE ASKING YOU AND ANOTHER NOOBS HERE ABOUT HELP WITH THAT BUILDING ICONS FEATURES FOR YEARS, BUT YOU KEEP IGNORING ME AND KEEP WRITE SHIT, SO BURN YOU AND YOUR ASSLICKERS FRIENDS, THIS TIME I'M NOT COME BACK!!!!!!!!!
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| Re: Renegade X - 0.40 Launch! [message #411240 is a reply to message #410728] |
Wed, 18 November 2009 01:59 |
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Goztow
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Goztoe |
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If you read carefully, you'll note that I'm commenting Renegade's economy system and not Renegade-X's. I'm indeed making an assumption that Renegade X's is different, which it seems to be from what I read and I assume indeed that an economy model based on damage will be better than an economy model based on something else from my previous experience with pointsbug opposed to pointsfix.
You can find me in The KOSs2 (TK2) discord while I'm playing. Feel free to come and say hi! TK2 discord
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| Re: Renegade X - 0.40 Launch! [message #411250 is a reply to message #411129] |
Wed, 18 November 2009 03:13 |
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EvilWhiteDragon
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| [NE |
Fobby[GEN] wrote on Tue, 17 November 2009 18:37]
Yes, and that was before the mod came out bro 
Like I said earlier, we had an internal discussion about it and we changed our mind before the first release. But the point is, just the fact that you didn't know that makes your credibility on the balance issues in Renegade X purely hypothetical rather than through experience. I mean how can you be so sure that it plays that much worse if you don't really play the mod? I'm sure you would notice something as drastic as the new point system if you've played Renegade X more than a couple times, which from your earlier posts, sounds like you have. Otherwise you couldn't go in so much detail about how our gameplay sucks 
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We have neither the flawed points fix or the original points system, we have our own but then again people whom dont play the mod wont know that, but will only talk trash based on words.
Really the problem is that some are so fixated on literlly everything (including the flaws) that they simply wont accept any change that improves the game, and only for the sole reason that it is different then the original.
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Welcome to the RenegadeForums 
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You missed a question:
| EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Tue, 17 November 2009 17:50 |
| GEORGE ZIMMER wrote on Tue, 17 November 2009 16:51 |
| Havoc 89 wrote on Mon, 16 November 2009 23:26 |
We have neither the flawed points fix or the original points system, we have our own but then again people whom dont play the mod wont know that, but will only talk trash based on words.
Really the problem is that some are so fixated on literlly everything (including the flaws) that they simply wont accept any change that improves the game, and only for the sole reason that it is different then the original.
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That's good to hear. How exactly will the points system be set up, if you don't mind me asking?
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You seriously don't get it do you? Pointbug = random amount of points depending on the attacker weapon. Pointfix = pointscaling depending on the damage the attacker did, not on the weapon.
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BlackIntel admin/founder/PR dude (not a coder)
Please visit http://www.blackintel.org/
| V, V for Vendetta |
People should not be afraid of their governments.
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