Home » General Discussions » Heated Discussions and Debates » hope none of you are them
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| Re: hope none of you are them [message #208211 is a reply to message #208205] |
Sat, 15 July 2006 10:19   |
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IronWarrior
Messages: 2460
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Location: England UK
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| Berkut wrote on Sat, 15 July 2006 11:32 |
| Scythar wrote on Sat, 15 July 2006 12:27 |
Since Jesus was God and continued to be so after being killed, where's the great "sacrificed himself for the humanity"-part?
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Right, I forgot that crucifiction is a completely pain-free process and does not, in any way involve embarassment beyond human reasoning. 
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If he was "god" then am sure any right minded god/person w/e wouldnt had allowed them to kill him, and if he did allow it to happan, whats the point? hes god, he cant die.. so hes not giving up on anything as he has the power to return time and time again.
anyway, if it lets you sleep better at night, fine. 
[Updated on: Sat, 15 July 2006 10:21] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: hope none of you are them [message #208214 is a reply to message #208211] |
Sat, 15 July 2006 10:32 |
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| IWarriors wrote on Sat, 15 July 2006 13:19 |
If he was "god" then am sure any right minded god/person w/e wouldnt had allowed them to kill him, and if he did allow it to happan, whats the point? hes god, he cant die.. so hes not giving up on anything as he has the power to return time and time again.
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Oh, please. The stupid, and pathetic, "he should have saved himself" argument. Ever think about maybe what he did was for the greater good? Police officers can "save themselves" in certain situations, but they put others above themselves. This is the same concept. Jesus suffered two deaths that day. He suffered an eternal death in Hell and the human physical death. THAT is the sacrifice. He suffered the eternal death, so we don't have to. Not just that he died because people didn't like him. THAT is why he didn't "save himself".
Libertarian Party | The King's Throne | The Soda Shop
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| Re: hope none of you are them [message #208215 is a reply to message #208175] |
Sat, 15 July 2006 10:40 |
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warranto
Messages: 2584
Registered: February 2003
Location: Alberta, Canada
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| Crimson wrote on Sat, 15 July 2006 06:07 |
| warranto wrote on Fri, 14 July 2006 05:59 |
| Crimson wrote on Thu, 13 July 2006 23:26 |
Well, I bought a "Yo God!" meter. If God exists, all he has to do is move the little needle over to "Yes". While it stays on "No", I will continue to believe he doesn't exist. It arrives soon.
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I'm sorry Crimson, but do you realize how -well, to call it what it is- pathetic it is to base your belief on the absence of something doing what you demand it to do?
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I guess you fail to grasp my point. I don't believe in any god created by any religion. I see your belief in a god as you view a child believing in Santa Claus. To me, the story of a man up at the North Pole making toys with elves is just as illogical and implausible as the story of our Jesus. Personally I don't see how it was such a huge sacrifice if the story is as you say. If he knew he would come down and die for our sins and become a god or whatever, then how is that a sacrifice? If I could die right now and become an immortal god, I'd sign up too. The sacrifice of death loses all meaning when you don't actually lose your life.
That's my point. It's a joke. All of it. A very elaborate joke that has fooled billions.
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Oh, it doesn't matter to me if you believe or not, just don't base it on an arguement of "Do what I demand, or I won't believe".
As for the whole "Santa Clause" thing, try to look back on where the idea of him came from. There is a reason he is also call "St. Nick". While the whole North-pole, riding around the world in one night is ficticious, "Santa Clause" was still very much a real person.
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| Re: hope none of you are them [message #208225 is a reply to message #207824] |
Sat, 15 July 2006 12:08 |
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GrayWolf
Messages: 214
Registered: March 2006
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I honestly feel bad for you people. I do care what you believe in. If I didn't why would I even talk to you. If you guys didn't face hell when you died I really wouldn't care how ignorant of the truth you are. Im not stupid, I know you guys think that believing in God is being brain washed and it means you have to go to church and be a perfect person, and you can't drink anymore and that you can't fun anymore... The people who believe this haven't read the bible. It's simply not true.
I feel terrible knowing that one day you guys might be on the edge of life and death feeling horrible thinking and wondering what you have to look forward to after you die. You think that this is just the end that when you die you will just not exist. Maybe you think when you die you'll be reincarnated as someone else. Then you die and your standing before God. God speaks and says
"Matthew 25:41 "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels."
Jesus said.
Matthew 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
So now your in hell. That's it your there forever. Then you'll believe in God. You'll also probably remember the day on earth when you read what graywolf typed on the Renegade Forums saying this very thing would happen and it did. You have alot to think about when your in the most terrible place ever. A place more terrible than you could ever even imagine. I bet you guys could imagine some pretty terrible things too. It's forever 100 years means nothing to forever. A billion years means nothing to forever 999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,992 years means nothing to forever.
I know you read this and looked for ways to tell me Im wrong, Im sure someones going to say this is a fear tactic. It's true I want you to be afraid of hell I don't want anyone to go there. Im done posting and debating about religion. Im not even going to come back and read any replays to this.
So go ahead bash this all you want talk about how God is bs. Keep believing that if you don't believe in God or heaven and hell it wont affect you. I honestly feel so bad for you people. Ok peace.
Some of my renegade stuff.
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| Re: hope none of you are them [message #208230 is a reply to message #207824] |
Sat, 15 July 2006 12:44 |
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NukeIt15
Messages: 987
Registered: February 2003
Location: Out to lunch
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A lot of people believe that hate is the worst of human emotions. I don't believe that is true- I think that the worst emotion a human being is capable of is not hate, but pity. Why pity? You can hate a person and still see them as your equal; this is not true of pity. Pity is not a form of sympathy; a sympathetic person still views those with whom they sympathize as equals. Pity is a devious one. Pity carries with it a feeling of inequality. It is impossible to pity another person without looking down upon that person as somehow inferior, or as lacking something that you believe you hold that gives you a higher status than theirs. It is also one of the most difficult emotions to not feel when faced with a debate like this one- many are inclined to pity those who do not hold their beliefs, as their faith tells them that those people are destined for doom.
You do not seek to understand why people have chosen to believe what they believe, yet you condemn their beliefs as false and dangerous and urge them to accept yours as right and true. How is it possible for you to pity what you do not even try to understand?
"Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. Horrid mischief would ensue were (the law-abiding) deprived of the use of them." - Thomas Paine
Remember, kids: illiteracy is cool. If you took the time to read this, you are clearly a loser who will never get laid. You've been warned.
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| Re: hope none of you are them [message #208234 is a reply to message #207824] |
Sat, 15 July 2006 12:56 |
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GrayWolf
Messages: 214
Registered: March 2006
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I said I wouldnt post here again but I just don't want to be misunderstood. I dont look down on anyone say what you wil but I don't. I can feel sorry and bad for someone and not look down on them.
I don't care what and why people believe the things they do. All I know is what they believe is wrong and I wished they knew the truth. Thats it im not going to read anymore responses.
Some of my renegade stuff.
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| Re: hope none of you are them [message #208238 is a reply to message #207824] |
Sat, 15 July 2006 13:42 |
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Scythar
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| NukeIt15 wrote on Sat, 15 July 2006 15:44 |
A lot of people believe that hate is the worst of human emotions. I don't believe that is true- I think that the worst emotion a human being is capable of is not hate, but pity....
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That is quite insightful. There's a reason the phrase "I pity you" is used a arguments a lot. In addition, its message is very clear, not perhaps to the one who says it, but to the receiver. It can very effectively make one feel they're somehow bad or insufficient. You might as well say "You ain't got what it takes". People should be careful with this word, it's quite high on the list of worst things to say to someone.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaghetti_monster
There's a hole in the sky through which things can fly.
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| Re: hope none of you are them [message #208246 is a reply to message #208242] |
Sat, 15 July 2006 14:48 |
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Scythar
Messages: 580
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Location: Finland
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| icedog90 wrote on Sat, 15 July 2006 17:27 |
I think GrayWolf just said it right there guys.
I find it funny, and ironic, how some people who try to bash Christianity as much as they can believe in evolution. I think anyone can add on to what I just said.
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GrayWolf said he feels bad because he believes something bad will happen to people who don't believe in the Christian God. Nobody is trying to argue about what he feels, if that's what you're trying to say. Unless you're talking about some earlier post of his.
And what you just said basically starts this whole discussion from the beginning again, so yeah there's a lot to add :S
There are better places to debate at though, with much more resourceful comments and facts based on the bible and other religious material, and scientific facts. I suppose this is pretty pointless, I didn't really gain anything new from all this.
*Goes to hunt knowledge elsewhere*
There's a hole in the sky through which things can fly.
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| Re: hope none of you are them [message #208258 is a reply to message #207824] |
Sat, 15 July 2006 16:36 |
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Hydra
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"There is no god. All this you see around you? *opens up arms in panoramic movement* It's all absolutely pointless. YOU are absolutely pointless."
How depressing. Why would I want to be an atheist?
Walter Keith Koester: September 22, 1962 - March 15, 2005
God be with you, Uncle Wally.
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[Updated on: Sat, 15 July 2006 16:36] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: hope none of you are them [message #208262 is a reply to message #208214] |
Sat, 15 July 2006 17:53 |
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IronWarrior
Messages: 2460
Registered: November 2004
Location: England UK
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| j_ball430 wrote on Sat, 15 July 2006 12:32 |
| IWarriors wrote on Sat, 15 July 2006 13:19 |
If he was "god" then am sure any right minded god/person w/e wouldnt had allowed them to kill him, and if he did allow it to happan, whats the point? hes god, he cant die.. so hes not giving up on anything as he has the power to return time and time again.
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Oh, please. The stupid, and pathetic, "he should have saved himself" argument. Ever think about maybe what he did was for the greater good? Police officers can "save themselves" in certain situations, but they put others above themselves. This is the same concept. Jesus suffered two deaths that day. He suffered an eternal death in Hell and the human physical death. THAT is the sacrifice. He suffered the eternal death, so we don't have to. Not just that he died because people didn't like him. THAT is why he didn't "save himself".
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HA! but he did save himself, didnt he, he rose up a few days later.
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| Re: hope none of you are them [message #208263 is a reply to message #208258] |
Sat, 15 July 2006 17:58 |
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Sniper_De7
Messages: 866
Registered: April 2004
Location: Wisconsin
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| Hydra wrote on Sat, 15 July 2006 18:36 |
"There is no god. All this you see around you? *opens up arms in panoramic movement* It's all absolutely pointless. YOU are absolutely pointless."
How depressing. Why would I want to be an atheist?
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I don't know how I deal with it day in day out. It's cutting me up inside that it just hurts so bad. I almost want to abandon all reasoning for living it makes me cry :'(
Yeah. Depressing.
Oderint, dum metuant.
It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat. - Theodore "Teddy" Roosevelt
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| Re: hope none of you are them [message #208265 is a reply to message #208262] |
Sat, 15 July 2006 18:25 |
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| IWarriors wrote on Sat, 15 July 2006 20:53 |
| j_ball430 wrote on Sat, 15 July 2006 12:32 |
| IWarriors wrote on Sat, 15 July 2006 13:19 |
If he was "god" then am sure any right minded god/person w/e wouldnt had allowed them to kill him, and if he did allow it to happan, whats the point? hes god, he cant die.. so hes not giving up on anything as he has the power to return time and time again.
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Oh, please. The stupid, and pathetic, "he should have saved himself" argument. Ever think about maybe what he did was for the greater good? Police officers can "save themselves" in certain situations, but they put others above themselves. This is the same concept. Jesus suffered two deaths that day. He suffered an eternal death in Hell and the human physical death. THAT is the sacrifice. He suffered the eternal death, so we don't have to. Not just that he died because people didn't like him. THAT is why he didn't "save himself".
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HA! but he did save himself, didnt he, he rose up a few days later.
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Eh, not really. It just more or less shows that he conquered death. He came back to life after being in Heaven. How would that be saving himself? Wouldn't he just be sending himself back into torment from paradise?
Libertarian Party | The King's Throne | The Soda Shop
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| Re: hope none of you are them [message #208266 is a reply to message #207824] |
Sat, 15 July 2006 18:53 |
Berkut
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If there is no God, and this world is truly a mistake, then everything is meaningless. Humans are just useless machines whose only purpose in existance is to create more useless machines in a vain effort to sustain its own presense on this Earth. There is then no value in human life. No point to existance. Success, love, money, status; all are useless. There truly is no reason to live, knowing that all that you have will die with you.
And atheists think we're the ones preaching fire and brim-stone.
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| Re: hope none of you are them [message #208267 is a reply to message #207824] |
Sat, 15 July 2006 18:57 |
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Crimson
Messages: 7427
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Location: Phoenix, AZ
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General (5 Stars)
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There are many people who have, from time to time, been tempted to think for themselves -- who have found themselves questioning beliefs they inherited but really never examined. This is nowhere more apt to be the case than in the area of religious beliefs. Our religious beliefs came to us in a protective coating of age and respectability, like the invisible "force field" of science fiction.
It takes a degree of intellectual courage to penetrate this penumbra of sanctity and inspect a belief on its own merits. Still, many people have done so. They have found themselves asking such questions as, how do I know that this book called the Bible is the supernaturally revealed and infallible word of God? How do I know there is even such a being as God? How does anybody know there is such a thing as immorality? When people begin seriously to raise questions of this sort, they find that their "faith", that is, their accustomed belief-patterns, seem increasingly insubstantial.
To lose one's faith may seem, in prospect, like being turned out of a comfortable home and left to fend for oneself in a vast and trackless waste. Those with a persistent curiosity and adventurous spirit will never-the-less leave their cozy shelter and set out to learn for themselves what it is like "out there." Although their first steps may be taken "in fear and trembling," they begin to find that they are not alone. They discover stalwart companions. They learn, indeed that they are "compassed about" with a "cloud of witnesses." As their minds become strengthened by use, they begin to see what others have seen, that their "spiritual home" was in reality a prison; its walls were built of ignorance and fear, and reinforced by habit and custom.
No one is kept in this prison but by oneself; it is a prison where every inmate is his or her jailer. Everyone, aware of it or not, already has the key that will unlock the door: the freedom to seek the truth.
- From the book Secular Nation by Thomas Vernon
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I have not read this book or know anything about the author, so don't get all ad-hominem on me.
However, the point stands. When (and if) you realize that this life is all you have and there is no great reward or punishment after you die, you are freed. Freed from fearing that who you love may decide your ultimate fate, freed from fearing that enjoying harmless pleasures won't condemn you to the imaginary pits of hell... As a child, the idea that this God person was there was told to me by my mom. Neither of my parents made me go to church more than a time or two, though I have attended at least a dozen sermons in my lifetime and attended Vacation Bible school twice. But even as a pre-teen, the whole god thing never stuck with me. It seemed like a weird story. Little did I know at that point how even intelligent people fell for this stuff and how deep this belief that some people have has gone back through the ages. Only recently did I really come to see clearly how religion was created by man to control people en masse, and as I discover people who I thought were intelligent being so the opposite, and so closed minded about religion.
It makes sense, of course. What better way to cement your religion than to convince the followers that non-believers are EVIL and are going to hell. Then if you hear common sense from us atheists you say the devil is speaking through us and shit. Such a beautiful near-perfect manipulation I see before me. I think less of you for falling for this shit, and you think less of me for not believing. What a beautiful situation that has been created, no?
I'm the bawss.
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| Re: hope none of you are them [message #208269 is a reply to message #208267] |
Sat, 15 July 2006 19:12 |
Berkut
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| Crimson wrote on Sat, 15 July 2006 19:57 |
Then if you hear common sense from us atheists you say the devil is speaking through us and s***.
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I never said this (nor do I wish to).
| Crimson wrote on Sat, 15 July 2006 19:57 |
...and you think less of me for not believing.
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I never said this (nor do I wish to).
[Updated on: Sat, 15 July 2006 19:12] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: hope none of you are them [message #208270 is a reply to message #208267] |
Sat, 15 July 2006 19:12 |
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| Crimson wrote on Sat, 15 July 2006 21:57 |
However, the point stands. When (and if) you realize that this life is all you have and there is no great reward or punishment after you die, you are freed. Freed from fearing that who you love may decide your ultimate fate, freed from fearing that enjoying harmless pleasures won't condemn you to the imaginary pits of hell... As a child, the idea that this God person was there was told to me by my mom. Neither of my parents made me go to church more than a time or two, though I have attended at least a dozen sermons in my lifetime and attended Vacation Bible school twice. But even as a pre-teen, the whole god thing never stuck with me. It seemed like a weird story. Little did I know at that point how even intelligent people fell for this stuff and how deep this belief that some people have has gone back through the ages. Only recently did I really come to see clearly how religion was created by man to control people en masse, and as I discover people who I thought were intelligent being so the opposite, and so closed minded about religion.
It makes sense, of course. What better way to cement your religion than to convince the followers that non-believers are EVIL and are going to hell. Then if you hear common sense from us atheists you say the devil is speaking through us and shit. Such a beautiful near-perfect manipulation I see before me. I think less of you for falling for this shit, and you think less of me for not believing. What a beautiful situation that has been created, no?
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How am I freed? That's just an athiest's view on our faith. The same would go for a Republican saying that a Democrat would be freed from propaganda if they denounced their liberal stand-points and embraced the right's views. It's purely opinion to claim that one is "freed". I feel freed knowing that I have some higher power willing to die for my well being and eternal safety. It has nothing to do with who I love or treat nicely.
Religion is evil. There is no other way around it. It IS to control people in masses and force them to abide by certain guidelines. That's not what Christianity is SUPPOSED to be about, but it has just become another religion. True faith, however, is not bound by these restrictions. I have no longer allowed myself to be bound by a religion. I follow the Christian faith.
Why does this all have to be a trap? Why can't this be something truthful? Just because YOU feel that something is right, doesn't mean it is. Just because I feel that something is right, doesn't mean it is, and to look down at me because I disagree with you? That's ignorance. Why would I look down at you for not believing this? I think differently, but that doesn't mean that I think I'm a better person for thinking my way. If anything, I'll think less of you for sinking down to that level of immaturity and closed-mindedness.
Libertarian Party | The King's Throne | The Soda Shop
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| Re: hope none of you are them [message #208277 is a reply to message #207824] |
Sat, 15 July 2006 19:40 |
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Sniper_De7
Messages: 866
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Location: Wisconsin
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Who said the world is a "mistake" and how does it make life useless? 2000 years ago houses were made of stone and wood and you got around on horseback and it'd take years to travel anywhere. Now we can talk to a person across the world over teamspeak with a group of other people all over the place as if we're talking on a telephone. People 2000 years ago would be marveled at the place we live now. The universe is .0000000000000000000000000000000000000001% discovered. Why don't we just say it'll become useless when it's 100% discovered, since that's humanity's largest goal. And I'm sure it either won't happen or won't happen for a very long time. So there ya go. Besides, the one thing we really haven't mastered in travel is space. So there's A LOT to live for. Are you saying the only reason we humans are living right now is to get into heaven? If that's true, than what is the point of even advancing on Earth? It'd be the same if you were an Atheist. Besides, i just don't bother with religion or don't care at all about it in my life. My parents taught me moral rights or wrong, not God. Frankly, that's all I've ever needed.
Oderint, dum metuant.
It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat. - Theodore "Teddy" Roosevelt
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| Re: hope none of you are them [message #208282 is a reply to message #208266] |
Sat, 15 July 2006 19:43 |
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IronWarrior
Messages: 2460
Registered: November 2004
Location: England UK
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| Berkut wrote on Sat, 15 July 2006 20:53 |
If there is no God, and this world is truly a mistake, then everything is meaningless. Humans are just useless machines whose only purpose in existance is to create more useless machines in a vain effort to sustain its own presense on this Earth. There is then no value in human life. No point to existance. Success, love, money, status; all are useless. There truly is no reason to live, knowing that all that you have will die with you.
And atheists think we're the ones preaching fire and brim-stone.
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Now you are understanding, humans are here for one thing only, to have sex and have have many babys. 
There is value in human life cause we make it so, we teach our kids to know that and respect life and our point in existance is to have babys, quiet simple and easy to understand, you dont need a god to believe in these things.
Just cause a person is an atheist, it doesnt mean they think when they die, the life will be over, some believe that your soul gets reborn into a other life in a endless chain.
[Updated on: Sat, 15 July 2006 19:45] Report message to a moderator |
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