Home » Tiberian Technologies / Blackhand Studios » Other Products » Unit Balance
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| Re: Unit Balance [message #83038] |
Sat, 24 April 2004 17:18   |
cokemaster
Messages: 144
Registered: April 2003
Karma: 0
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| Slash0x |
If I am willing to shoot at a tank, should be my own choice, all I am doing is wasting bullets to kill infantry...I came to this several times, so I know (and I don't get refills every five seconds because I got barely hit for 60 health...). :rolleyes:
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:rolleyes: Then why should you get points for it then? All you are doing is wasting ammo on it.
The default mammoth missles I think they might need an increase in range.
Remember, Friends don't let friends play Reborn!
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| Unit Balance [message #83054] |
Sat, 24 April 2004 18:29 |
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Aircraftkiller
Messages: 8213
Registered: February 2003
Karma: 0
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General (5 Stars) |
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| drkhaze |
I was thinking the same thing as spoony at the start of this topic. In the best interests of this game, yes, by all means tone down the amount of damage ramjet rifles do to aircraft. But the weapon arms on the aircraft should not be changed. If we armed all orcas and apaches with small arms made for a "quick attack and back", that wouldn't work in smaller games. This would be a good idea, if we were playing a 50 v 50 game. Which will not happen. Games like tiberian sun and red alert enabled you to built tons and tons of units. In Renegade, lets say the average game is going to be a 10 v 10.
Now, if we keep the weapon arms on the aircraft the same, I strongly think the balance would come in the fact that rocket soldier officers / MRLS / stealth tanks / mammoth tusk missiles etc done "a lot" of damage to aircraft. How about 1 rocket does the same amount of damage as a ramjet would have? Which is, 2 squares of damage per rocket hit. This would keep the pilots cautions (especially of MRLS -- 2 or 3 of the 6 rocket barriage always homes in at the moment) but it would also prevent the "instant hit" crap that comes from ramjets.
Also, if possible, keep the chance of a missile homing in at 50%, otherwise travelling straight ahead. This would prevent you happening upon an aircraft and taking it out too quickly with your 6 missile barrage.
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It's not about small games. A LOT of tactics don't work in small games. So what? Why should the entire game be adjusted so that it works optimally in smaller games?
Aircraft need to be like they were in C&C, or flying becomes unenjoyable garbage because you get shot down the moment you leave your base.
Doing it the way I said makes the game like C&C, what it was meant to be, and balances out without a problem.
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| Unit Balance [message #83099] |
Sat, 24 April 2004 22:15 |
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Deathgod
Messages: 504
Registered: February 2003
Location: The House of B
Karma: 0
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Colonel |
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Is this patch going to be an optional one? Will people who have it be able to play on non-patched servers? Frankly, I dislike most of these changes, having already played through them on ACK's maps and RenAlert... if WW wanted the game to play like that, they'd have done it themselves. While I can appreciate your fervor in wanting it to be exactly like C&C was, Ren is fun solely because it took liberties to improve gameplay in areas where a direct comparison would have been not as cool. Take artillery, for example, or grenadiers. The artillery would have been impossible to use well in Ren if it had to fire in an arc. The way it is now, it still has a minimum firing range, yet works much better in the game's engine.
If you're going to balance something, make it so GDI and Nod Rifle Soldiers do the same damage, or make it so both the Orca and Apache have the same machine guns, or make Tib Rifle Sydney a little better considering the Chemwarrior is a much more useful character.
Making the aircraft have actual clips wouldn't be a bad plan, either; say 4-6 rockets for an Orca, then a reload similar to the MRLS. Since the Orca doesn't have the same ROF as an MRLS does this would be a decent balance change that wouldn't horribly impact the game. Also, try making the machine guns on the aircraft not be 100% accurate, as both have a spray radius of 0 right now. I suppose this was done to try to negate the impact of "float" on your shots but these guns are too beefy vs. infantry. Lowering the ROF by about 20% might not be a bad call, or making the warhead not Steel because they have a disproportionate impact on infantry.
WOL: priestofb
FUD Online for Renegade character details
The preceding post was sponsored by FUD.
We are the way, you are in the way.â„¢
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| Unit Balance [message #83126] |
Sun, 25 April 2004 00:53 |
DarkFish
Messages: 49
Registered: January 2004
Location: London, Uk
Karma: 0
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So we are looking at something like the remake you did of City_Flying?
The idea sounds good for an option, I would try both before choosing one though. A project such as this might have uptake problems. If you look at a non fanmap-dedicated server, when they do have the occasional fan map, they tend to empty.
The Dark Angels
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| Unit Balance [message #83137] |
Sun, 25 April 2004 02:56 |
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Crimson
Messages: 7428
Registered: February 2003
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Karma: 0
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General (5 Stars)
ADMINISTRATOR |
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When you install/installed RenGuard 1.02, you were asked if you wanted us to automatically install bug fixes from BlackHand Studios. Whether these types of changes are included is completely based on your feedback.
I'm the bawss.
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| Unit Balance [message #83138] |
Sun, 25 April 2004 02:58 |
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Dan
Messages: 395
Registered: August 2003
Location: UK
Karma: 0
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Commander |
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if you're going to allocate ammo for the apaches/orcas then I think that their power should be increased slightly as when you go off to reload the tank driver you were attacking can just get out and repair while you are reloading
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| Unit Balance [message #83139] |
Sun, 25 April 2004 02:59 |
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Dan
Messages: 395
Registered: August 2003
Location: UK
Karma: 0
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Commander |
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And crimson, are we still able to play on nonpatched servers with the patches, and vice versa?
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| Unit Balance [message #83140] |
Sun, 25 April 2004 03:00 |
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Crimson
Messages: 7428
Registered: February 2003
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Karma: 0
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General (5 Stars)
ADMINISTRATOR |
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The bug fixes we have scheduled right now will work on ANY server you join. As far as balance changes, we're going to need to do a LOT of brainstorming and playing with the engine to figure out the best way to deliver those changes to you. If we can do it server-side, that would be optimal.
I'm the bawss.
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| Unit Balance [message #83141] |
Sun, 25 April 2004 03:02 |
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Dan
Messages: 395
Registered: August 2003
Location: UK
Karma: 0
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Commander |
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When you start releasing updates for the engine & sutff. is it possible to make it so that the changes only work in patched servers, and a different configuration can be used in non patched servers? that way we can play in any server
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| Unit Balance [message #83142] |
Sun, 25 April 2004 03:12 |
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m1a1_abrams
Messages: 375
Registered: August 2003
Karma: 0
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Commander |
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I agree with all your suggestions except the Orca/Apache ammo. It's a great idea to have them rearm at the Helipad, but I think they need more ammo. In Tiberian Dawn you could build large groups of them, but you only control yourself in Renegade (and other players won't necessarily co-operate with you all the time), so I think it would be better if you had at least enough Orca missiles to destroy a basic tank on your own.
Aircraft in Renegade were either far too weak or far too strong, depending on whether the enemy had snipers. If the Hand/Barracks was down, they ruled over everything, because they could stay in the air indefinitely and their chainguns could rip through both tanks and infantry. Now if you make them specialized, with the Orca finding it hard to take out infantry and the Apache doing little damage to tanks (unless in groups), then you've already narrowed their effectiveness to one type of unit. When you factor in having to return to base to reload every so often, I think you can safely give them a moderate supply of ammo without it affecting the unit balance. They wouldn't be all-powerful anymore, even without anti-air snipers, because they wouldn't be able to damage all units to the same degree.
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| Unit Balance [message #83158] |
Sun, 25 April 2004 07:32 |
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Deathgod
Messages: 504
Registered: February 2003
Location: The House of B
Karma: 0
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Colonel |
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| Aircraftkiller |
| Quote: |
if WW wanted the game to play like that, they'd have done it themselves.
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That's nowhere near true. WS would have patched the game for unit balance if EA had allocated the resources for it.
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What kind of "resources" would it take? Anyone could bang out something like that in the Ren tools in like 30 minutes.  Do some in-house testing, which I'm sure is what you'll be doing with your patch, and send it out. If it was so resource intensive that a big company like EA didn't want to do it then why are you able to do it?
| Aircraftkiller |
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The artillery would have been impossible to use well in Ren if it had to fire in an arc. The way it is now, it still has a minimum firing range, yet works much better in the game's engine.
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You mean it doesn't require skill. Gotcha.
I don't get why people play a C&C game and want to turn it into something that isn't C&C gameplay.
If you want Unreal, go play it... Most people were expecting C&C up close, not some bastardized version of it.
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I fail to see how being able to only shoot at stationary targets and skill are equated. I'd think it'd be the other way around; it takes no skill to hit a stationary target. As I said before, I can appreciate the fact that you want to make this game exactly like C&C, but there's a reason it wasn't made like that. There's also a reason games like Unreal are infinitely more popular than Ren, since you brought that up: they're simple. Simplicity in form and perfection in execution are much better goals to shoot for. Complexity, while it may keep some of the hardcore people playing, will alienate most of the rest of your userbase.
I might as well ask this here: if this forum has been opened to discuss balance changes, among other things, and you're not going to actually read what people say with at least an attempt at objectivism, then why are we even bothering to post our opinions?
WOL: priestofb
FUD Online for Renegade character details
The preceding post was sponsored by FUD.
We are the way, you are in the way.â„¢
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| Unit Balance [message #83175] |
Sun, 25 April 2004 08:28 |
mahkra
Messages: 219
Registered: April 2004
Karma: 0
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| Crimson |
The bug fixes we have scheduled right now will work on ANY server you join.
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To me, this seems tantamount to an endorsement of cheating. Some people may not agree that all of the "bugs" actually need to be changed. (And as self-proclaimed "leaders of the community," you should be sympathetic to those of us who wish to play the game un-modded.)
You may not think of these bug fixes a cheat. But consider this: if one person starts with a pistol always loaded, and another must reload his pistol before firing, doesn't that give one player an unfair advantage? (Granted, this is not as extreme as, say, a bighead mod, but it is still unfair.) Another example: if only one or two people in a game can see icons to go along with radio messages, doesn't that create an unfair situation?
I believe that if you want to fix bugs and make balance changes, you should release everything as a mod to the game, so people can still play a totally un-modified game on certain servers. Don't just try to change the game itself. Doing that only punishes those of us who want to play the game the way Westwood made it.
-mahkra
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| Unit Balance [message #83182] |
Sun, 25 April 2004 09:22 |
tooncy
Messages: 407
Registered: February 2004
Karma: 0
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Commander |
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In responce to the pistol thing, thats exactly why I always reload after killing somebody.
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| Unit Balance [message #83185] |
Sun, 25 April 2004 09:38 |
spoonyrat
Messages: 406
Registered: December 2003
Location: England
Karma: 0
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Commander |
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Anyone with an ounce of sense reloads their pistol once they've bought their character.
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| Unit Balance [message #83199] |
Sun, 25 April 2004 10:40 |
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Aircraftkiller
Messages: 8213
Registered: February 2003
Karma: 0
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General (5 Stars) |
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| Quote: |
What kind of "resources" would it take? Anyone could bang out something like that in the Ren tools in like 30 minutes. Do some in-house testing, which I'm sure is what you'll be doing with your patch, and send it out. If it was so resource intensive that a big company like EA didn't want to do it then why are you able to do it?
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That isn't the point. They have to assign a team of beta testers to make sure it works right and that nothing is overbalanced. Then, after that testing phase, it has to go to EA's quality assurance department. If it passes that, it has to get compiled into a patch for release, and possibly release another patch to fix issues that arised from the one before it.
That's why they didn't release a patch to fix gameplay, because they'd need to release more as the game changed.
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As I said before, I can appreciate the fact that you want to make this game exactly like C&C, but there's a reason it wasn't made like that.
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Yeah, you're right. There is a reason. Electronic Arts suits decided it needed to be changed at E3 2000.
"Hey, that Buggy is cool and all, but you can make it better. So do it."
And so forth. This is how we ended up with Renegade as it is today. If they had left development to WS, and had they developed Renegade faster than five years, we'd have a true C&C experience.
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Complexity, while it may keep some of the hardcore people playing, will alienate most of the rest of your userbase.
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People use Artillery all of the time in RA. I don't see any complaints about it being changed. People who use it normally say they love how it works now, because it has massive range with better damage, but less accuracy.
Those who don't like it... Do not use it. They simply use another unit on the Allied vehicle arsenal.
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I might as well ask this here: if this forum has been opened to discuss balance changes, among other things, and you're not going to actually read what people say with at least an attempt at objectivism, then why are we even bothering to post our opinions?
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Because I don't make the balance changes. I'm here to argue my position, and I will do so because I want this game to be what it was intended to be, not this bullshit we're playing right now.
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| Unit Balance [message #83226] |
Sun, 25 April 2004 11:33 |
PiMuRho
Messages: 494
Registered: February 2003
Karma: 0
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Commander |
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Just as a side note - Renegade multiplayer was only added in the last 6 months of development, and was absolutely not a priority. For the majority of the game's development, it was purely a single-player game.
The beta test was used to address some balance issues, but obviously some still remain - that can't be denied. I don't agree with all the changes ACK wants to make  but that's why this has been opened to the public.
Dev Diary
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| Unit Balance [message #83248] |
Sun, 25 April 2004 13:28 |
Homey
Messages: 1084
Registered: February 2003
Location: Canada
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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Just one little thing about artillary, If your aimed at something exactly thats not moving, sometimes it goes right on, others of to the right, or down. It's a little un accurate. Supposed to be like that?
Homey
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| Unit Balance [message #83254] |
Sun, 25 April 2004 14:06 |
spoonyrat
Messages: 406
Registered: December 2003
Location: England
Karma: 0
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Commander |
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Seriously homey, I really didn't expect a dumb question like that from you.
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| Unit Balance [message #83262] |
Sun, 25 April 2004 14:33 |
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Deathgod
Messages: 504
Registered: February 2003
Location: The House of B
Karma: 0
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Colonel |
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Homey: most of the guns in the game aren't perfectly accurate, the glaring exceptions being Orca/Apache machine guns.
ACK: I think you're taking what I am saying a little out of context. I was pointing those things out as examples of items that were changed to increase playability. You may argue that no one has a beef with your artillery currently, but the people who play RA are a small subset of all Ren players, and most of them play it because they like what you've done to make it adhere to the original game. I don't play it because I dislike these changes, so we'll just get that on the table now.
I hardly think what Ren is now is "bullshit" as you so succintly put it. It may not be literal 100% true to C&C gameplay, but for me I prefer it that way because it's faster-paced. Ren is one of the slowest-paced FPSes out there, and the only reason I DO still play it when better games are out there is because of the C&C mode and the way the whole theme is carried out. Some of your proposed changes will make the game quite a bit slower, and I hope you realize this before you do it.
While we're on the subject, if you're going to change weapon damages or ranges at all, can you post exact figures in here? I'd like to see a comparison of what the values are now to what you'd like to see done, if you don't mind. If you don't want to do it here, you can hit me up on AIM (priestofb) and we can talk there, too.
WOL: priestofb
FUD Online for Renegade character details
The preceding post was sponsored by FUD.
We are the way, you are in the way.â„¢
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| Unit Balance [message #83271] |
Sun, 25 April 2004 15:26 |
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Aircraftkiller
Messages: 8213
Registered: February 2003
Karma: 0
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General (5 Stars) |
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| Quote: |
I hardly think what Ren is now is "bullshit" as you so succintly put it. It may not be literal 100% true to C&C gameplay, but for me I prefer it that way because it's faster-paced. Ren is one of the slowest-paced FPSes out there, and the only reason I DO still play it when better games are out there is because of the C&C mode and the way the whole theme is carried out. Some of your proposed changes will make the game quite a bit slower, and I hope you realize this before you do it.
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Of course it is, because it's based on real time strategy. It's not a fucking deathmatch, why even bring that up? Renegade is less of a FPS and more of a RTS\FPS hybrid, when it should be a RTS gameplay converted to FPS.
Once again, if you want a fast paced game, C&C isn't your style. At least not a C&C FPS. If you want Unreal style games, the best solution is to go play Unreal.
C&C is about strategy, not about how fast you can win - unless you're playing tournament games. There's little strategy when a lot of the Renegade units are dumbed down so there's only a few good ones that kill everything, real fun that is...
People play RA because they enjoy it. Because it's Red Alert in first person. People who aren't playing it usually don't know what RA is, simply because they haven't been able to see it before. There's a lot of communication lapses between this community and 50% of the players on WOL.
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