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| Re: Church of FSM [message #176066 is a reply to message #176062] |
Sun, 23 October 2005 13:42   |
runewood
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Right, stateing god created the universe has nothing to do with the beleif in god...
Eveloution can be proven with fossels and such, while god cant be proven.
Thats right i am ahead because your shit is just relgious bs. If it metions god its no longer in the relm of science, its faith. We don't teach the diffrent ways people think life came to be, we only teach the scientific ones. I woulld still like to know how you can prove there is a god and what proof there is about god. (a book with words in it doesnt count)
"Don't try to be a great man, just be a man. Let history make it's own judgments."
"Maybe its not the destination that matters, but the journey."
"How many people does it take before its wrong? A thousand? Fifty thousand? A million?"
"Im not here to tell you how it is going to end, Im here to tell you how it is going to begin."
"Its not the end or even the beggining of the end, mearly the end of the beggining."
"Logic is the beginning of wisdom; not the end."
[Updated on: Sun, 23 October 2005 13:43] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Church of FSM [message #176067 is a reply to message #176066] |
Sun, 23 October 2005 13:51 |
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| runewood wrote on Sun, 23 October 2005 16:42 |
Right, stateing god created the universe has nothing to do with the beleif in god...
Eveloution can be proven with fossels and such, while god cant be proven.
Thats right i am ahead because your shit is just relgious bs. If it metions god its no longer in the relm of science, its faith. We don't teach the diffrent ways people think life came to be, we only teach the scientific ones. I woulld still like to know how you can prove there is a god and what proof there is about god. (a book with words in it doesnt count)
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It's a THEORY. It's not stating whether it's fact or not, but it does state that it's a POSSIBILITY. Just because it's taught doesn't mean it has to be believed.
You have no clue what you're talking about. If Evolution was proven, religion would be proven wrong and I would have no reason to believe what I do. However, it hasn't been disproven, so I'm still religious.
You realize that the Theory of Evolution is a theory, therefore you BELIEVE it to be true. It's no different than me believing that God created the universe.
What part of "Creation is a scientific theory" don't you understand?
You honestly have no clue what faith is about, so I won't even answer you to that respect.
Libertarian Party | The King's Throne | The Soda Shop
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| Re: Church of FSM [message #176073 is a reply to message #176032] |
Sun, 23 October 2005 14:29 |
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Javaxcx
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| mrpirate wrote on Sun, 23 October 2005 13:45 |
| Javaxcx wrote on Sun, 23 October 2005 11:08 |
It's easy to say and prove that God exists...
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I am honestly interested to see this. Explanation/URL/something please.
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Thomas Aquinas explains it better than I ever could. It deals with the cause and effect relationship between all existence. It insists that at the beginning of the universe there was a prime cause which caused the rest of the universe into happening.
That's easy to explain. What is difficult is how to explain that something which is uncaused (God) can cause a cause to happen. It goes by a few names; unmoved mover, first cause, and so on. The Summa Contra Gentiles explains this whole deal in a much more methodical way. Yes, it is a Catholic book, but there is very little Catholicism in it-- at least the first book. The point is, it is a rational explanation for how God must exist.
What is important to understand however, is that the nature of this universe and other things suggest that no thing is 100% certain. This includes the existence of God. So while I can say that God must exist, I mean it in the same context that I can say that the sun will rise tomorrow. There is a chance that it will not, but the probability is so unbelievably negliable that we don't even regard it with an answer.
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| Re: Church of FSM [message #176076 is a reply to message #176067] |
Sun, 23 October 2005 15:08 |
runewood
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| j_ball430 wrote on Sun, 23 October 2005 16:51 |
| runewood wrote on Sun, 23 October 2005 16:42 |
Right, stateing god created the universe has nothing to do with the beleif in god...
Eveloution can be proven with fossels and such, while god cant be proven.
Thats right i am ahead because your shit is just relgious bs. If it metions god its no longer in the relm of science, its faith. We don't teach the diffrent ways people think life came to be, we only teach the scientific ones. I woulld still like to know how you can prove there is a god and what proof there is about god. (a book with words in it doesnt count)
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It's a THEORY. It's not stating whether it's fact or not, but it does state that it's a POSSIBILITY. Just because it's taught doesn't mean it has to be believed.
You have no clue what you're talking about. If Evolution was proven, religion would be proven wrong and I would have no reason to believe what I do. However, it hasn't been disproven, so I'm still religious.
You realize that the Theory of Evolution is a theory, therefore you BELIEVE it to be true. It's no different than me believing that God created the universe.
What part of "Creation is a scientific theory" don't you understand?
You honestly have no clue what faith is about, so I won't even answer you to that respect.
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Thats just the thing, god can't be proven. Unless he shows his will to everyone he cant be proven.
Even if we prove eveloution, faith will say oh god guided eveloution. Not matter what science says god cant be disproven because god is all powerful and his will is done. Just the same, god cant be proven, thus the problem. Science can be proven or dis proven even if it is beyond our means currently. God cant be disproven because he is all poweful and if he doesnt want to be found he wont be.
Creation isnt science, *poof its here*, isnt science.
I dont know what faith is because i dont have it. If you dont have it you cant understand it, Plain and simple.
All your arguments hold as much weight as FSM. If we teach evolution we must teach ID and we must teach FSM ID and my thoery of ID which is I am god and I made man evolve...
"Don't try to be a great man, just be a man. Let history make it's own judgments."
"Maybe its not the destination that matters, but the journey."
"How many people does it take before its wrong? A thousand? Fifty thousand? A million?"
"Im not here to tell you how it is going to end, Im here to tell you how it is going to begin."
"Its not the end or even the beggining of the end, mearly the end of the beggining."
"Logic is the beginning of wisdom; not the end."
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| Re: Church of FSM [message #176078 is a reply to message #175124] |
Sun, 23 October 2005 15:25 |
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Javaxcx
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...The existence of God can be proven within as much certainty as dropping a pencil off a table and predicting it falling.
That doesn't mean the Bible and God are one and the same. THAT is a faith choice. God's existence does not call for the necessity of the Bible. If that's the case, then whatever God's will is, it is unknown to us and He is under no obligation to show it to us. But we can still prove He exists.
Sniper Extraordinaire
Read the FUD Rules before you come in and make an ass of yourself.
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[Updated on: Sun, 23 October 2005 15:26] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Church of FSM [message #176091 is a reply to message #175124] |
Sun, 23 October 2005 17:19 |
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Crimson
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The definition of "theory" in the scientific world is not opposite of "fact". The evidence of evolution is quite expansive.
(emphasis mine)
| "Mark Thomas" |
It’s important to remember that the term “theory” in science is not the same as it is in general usage. A scientific theory is a unifying concept that explains a large body of data. It is a hypothesis that has withstood the test of time and the challenge of opposing views. The Theory of Evolution is the basic unifying concept of biology. The CEO of The American Association for the Advancement of Science, Alan Leshner, wrote, “Although scientists may debate details of the mechanisms of evolution, there is no argument among scientists as to whether evolution is taking place.” The National Academy of Sciences, the nation’s most prestigious scientific organization, has declared evolution “one of the strongest and most useful scientific theories we have,” and notes that evolution is supported by an overwhelming scientific consensus. The Theory of Evolution has as much validity as the theory of gravity, atomic theory, or the germ theory of disease.
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Look at it this way. Back in ancient Greece, it was believed that Helios pulled the sun across the sky every day. In fact there were "gods" for every action that was unexplained. A god for fertility, one for thunder/lightning, etc. But the more that was learned over the years, the less we needed "gods" to explain them.
I find this particularly scary: (emphasis mine)
| "Mark Thomas" |
Galileo took the new invention of the telescope, refined it, and used it to look at the night sky. He was astounded. On the moon he could see mountains and valleys. It wasn’t just some strange heavenly object; it was probably made out of the same stuff as Earth. In 1609 Galileo looked at Jupiter, and discovered that it had four moons. If moons orbited Jupiter, then not everything orbited the Earth, as the Catholic Church taught at the time. Astronomy made more sense if the theories of Copernicus were true, and the Earth and planets orbited the sun. After writing a book about this, Galileo was called to Rome in 1633 by the Catholic Church’s Inquisition, and told to recant his heretical ideas.
This was no “simple request” by the Church. Just 33 years before, the Inquisition had executed Galileo’s friend Giordano Bruno. Have you heard of him? In 1600, the Christian authorities in Rome took him out of the dungeon he had been in for eight years, drove a nail through his tongue, tied him to a metal post, put wood and some of his books under his feet, and burned him to death. Bruno’s crime was writing ideas that the Catholic leaders didn’t like — there might be other worlds with other intelligent beings on them, Jesus didn’t possess god-like power, and souls can’t go to heaven. For these heretical ideas, the Catholic Church punished this brilliant thinker with a slow, agonizing death.
Galileo knew what he was up against. For the crime of heresy the Inquisition could put him in a dungeon, torture or even execute him. So, after a long trial, this proud 70-year-old man obediently got on his knees and recanted. But even after recanting, he was still sentenced to house arrest for the rest of his life. The Catholic Church officially condemned heliocentrism 31 years later, when Pope Alexander VII banned all books that affirmed the earth’s motion. But, even as powerful as the Church was, they could not hold back the tidal wave of scientific discovery, and the Church eventually lost its battle over our view of the Universe. It only took them over three hundred years to admit it. In 1992, after 12 years of deliberations, they grudgingly noted that Galileo had been right in supporting the theories of Copernicus. But no such admission has been made for Bruno; his writings are still on the Vatican’s list of forbidden texts, and Pope John Paul II refused to even apologize for the Catholic Church's torture killing of Bruno.
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1992!!! This was not ancient history! A mere 13 years ago, the Catholic church finally admitted that the solar system revolves around the sun.
So, as science progresses and explains what we previously didn't know, "God"s role in this universe gets smaller and smaller. Losing your ignorance is when you can finally let go of trusting a supernatural cause of something, and instead looking for the scientific cause.
| "Mark Thomas" |
The “god of the gaps” is the basic premise behind all the “scientific” arguments for the existence of a god. The logic of “god of the gaps” goes like this (as an argument that Martin Luther could have used): Isn’t lightning amazing! I don’t understand how lightning could be, without something else (that I don’t really understand either) making lightning. This something else must be a god because I can’t come up with a better explanation.
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I'm the bawss.
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| Re: Church of FSM [message #176095 is a reply to message #176076] |
Sun, 23 October 2005 17:45 |
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| runewood wrote on Sun, 23 October 2005 18:08 |
| j_ball430 wrote on Sun, 23 October 2005 16:51 |
| runewood wrote on Sun, 23 October 2005 16:42 |
Right, stateing god created the universe has nothing to do with the beleif in god...
Eveloution can be proven with fossels and such, while god cant be proven.
Thats right i am ahead because your shit is just relgious bs. If it metions god its no longer in the relm of science, its faith. We don't teach the diffrent ways people think life came to be, we only teach the scientific ones. I woulld still like to know how you can prove there is a god and what proof there is about god. (a book with words in it doesnt count)
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It's a THEORY. It's not stating whether it's fact or not, but it does state that it's a POSSIBILITY. Just because it's taught doesn't mean it has to be believed.
You have no clue what you're talking about. If Evolution was proven, religion would be proven wrong and I would have no reason to believe what I do. However, it hasn't been disproven, so I'm still religious.
You realize that the Theory of Evolution is a theory, therefore you BELIEVE it to be true. It's no different than me believing that God created the universe.
What part of "Creation is a scientific theory" don't you understand?
You honestly have no clue what faith is about, so I won't even answer you to that respect.
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Thats just the thing, god can't be proven. Unless he shows his will to everyone he cant be proven.
Even if we prove eveloution, faith will say oh god guided eveloution. Not matter what science says god cant be disproven because god is all powerful and his will is done. Just the same, god cant be proven, thus the problem. Science can be proven or dis proven even if it is beyond our means currently. God cant be disproven because he is all poweful and if he doesnt want to be found he wont be.
Creation isnt science, *poof its here*, isnt science.
I dont know what faith is because i dont have it. If you dont have it you cant understand it, Plain and simple.
All your arguments hold as much weight as FSM. If we teach evolution we must teach ID and we must teach FSM ID and my thoery of ID which is I am god and I made man evolve...
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science - The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena.
Tell me where it states that it HAS to be proven or disproven in order to account as science or a scientific theory? I sure as hell don't see it.
Faith is very simple to understand. You have faith right now. You probably have faith that you will be married some day. You don't know this for sure, and you sure as hell can't prove it until it happens, but you still probably have faith that you will marry. At least, I have that faith.
Libertarian Party | The King's Throne | The Soda Shop
[Updated on: Sun, 23 October 2005 17:48] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Church of FSM [message #176097 is a reply to message #175124] |
Sun, 23 October 2005 17:48 |
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Oblivion165
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I find it amazing how "God" has stayed so constant over the years. Things have been believed and burried for centuries. Witches and Sacrifices, all the things that have happened since man has written down events. Nothing has stayed constant like this. As time goes on people realise that by killing a goat the rain still didnt come as it did when they didnt.
These things have no bases. Why? Because there is no support under it. You can give and give, and nothing is thrown back. Therefore its a lost practice. I kill a goat, the room stays quite, nothing changes. Life is unalterd. The dust remains in the corner.
Now take that same logic and apply it to god. I goto church, nothing, nothing has changed. I pray to god for help, do i receive it? No, no one does. "But god helps those who helps themselves." now place that into a common sentence "If you sweep up your mess, god will assist you." Wait....how many times have you been sweeping up the kitchen and that second broom walk out of the broom closet and assist your duties?
Its the same message, it has no bases, no support, no facts. It was just written so that people can feel like their life wasnt a waste and after their short life is over, there is something else to exist in.
Man bet i pissed alot of people off with these paragraphs. Here comes the churchies! \|/
WOL: Ob165ion Skype: Oblivion165 Yahoo Instant Messenger: CaptainJohn165
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| Re: Church of FSM [message #176099 is a reply to message #176097] |
Sun, 23 October 2005 18:10 |
runewood
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^^ thank you. Saying "god did it" isnt science and I dont care wtf you think, real scientists agree with me.
"Don't try to be a great man, just be a man. Let history make it's own judgments."
"Maybe its not the destination that matters, but the journey."
"How many people does it take before its wrong? A thousand? Fifty thousand? A million?"
"Im not here to tell you how it is going to end, Im here to tell you how it is going to begin."
"Its not the end or even the beggining of the end, mearly the end of the beggining."
"Logic is the beginning of wisdom; not the end."
[Updated on: Sun, 23 October 2005 18:11] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Church of FSM [message #176104 is a reply to message #175124] |
Sun, 23 October 2005 18:46 |
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Crimson
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Causality is a human concept. You can't use a human concept to prove a supernatural concept.
I'm the bawss.
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| Re: Church of FSM [message #176106 is a reply to message #175124] |
Sun, 23 October 2005 19:06 |
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Javaxcx
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Of course not. But you can prove to within almost absolute certainty that something is using our empirical constructs and observations.
The notion of casuality doesn't necessarily fit into the human sensorial fallacy that you're relating it to. Casuality is the immediate result of having an existence of time. You can't have time without casuality, and you can't have casuality without time (or space). Immanuel Kant did a very good job in outlining the transcendental validity of why this is so. He, like I, would suggest that casuality is no more a human construct then time or space (both of which, are considered very much a priori).
This is also the reasoning that Aquinas used in validating the transcendental validity of an unmoved mover. Of course he wasn't able to figure out why, (Kant did) but the information was still there.
Keep in mind that proving that something supernatural *exists* doesn't negate the possibility of using contemporary, general logic, as well as via negativa and transcendent applicables to achieve that goal. It would be highly, HIGHLY improbable to use any of the aforementioned to try and describe the supernatural. I believe it is that which you are talking about, and in which case I agree.
Sniper Extraordinaire
Read the FUD Rules before you come in and make an ass of yourself.
All your base are belong to us.
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| Re: Church of FSM [message #176107 is a reply to message #175124] |
Sun, 23 October 2005 19:37 |
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Crimson
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So, in 'proving' that nothing else could have possibly "caused" all of this to come into existence, what is the "cause" that brought this "god" figure, or mover, into existence?
It seems to me that belief in a "god" is a grown-up and more far-reaching psychosis of an imaginary friend.
I'm the bawss.
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| Re: Church of FSM [message #176110 is a reply to message #175124] |
Sun, 23 October 2005 20:00 |
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Crimson
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It still seems like assumptions are being made of the existence of a "god" rather than where I "assume" that "he" does not exist. Furthermore, your conclusions in fact lead to the possibility that this "mover" could possibly be the FSM.
I'm the bawss.
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| Re: Church of FSM [message #176125 is a reply to message #175124] |
Sun, 23 October 2005 23:54 |
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Goztow
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People tend to get confused about this: God and the Catholic church are osmething very different. I believe in God but I have many trouble of believing in many things the pope declares.
How can you reckon that there is more certainty in a scientific theory than in believing God made the universe. For all you know, the human scientific "brain" (soz, I'm not English) had a mistake programmed in it. Or our maths system maybe is not 100 % correct.
You can say I only believe what my eyes see but maybe there is stuff out there that your eyes cannot see... That doesn't mean it isn't there.
You can find me in The KOSs2 (TK2) discord while I'm playing. Feel free to come and say hi! TK2 discord
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| Re: Church of FSM [message #176140 is a reply to message #175124] |
Mon, 24 October 2005 02:54 |
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Crimson
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Um, of course I know that all religion is not Catholicism... It was an example of how fucking EVIL organized religion is.
The fact that organized religion gets away with what they get away with is proof enough to me that there is NO GOD. There is no omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient God who would stand by and let these fuckholes do what they do in "his" name.
I'm the bawss.
[Updated on: Mon, 24 October 2005 02:55] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Church of FSM [message #176141 is a reply to message #176140] |
Mon, 24 October 2005 02:58 |
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Goztow
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| Crimson wrote on Mon, 24 October 2005 05:54 |
The fact that organized religion gets away with what they get away with is proof enough to me that there is NO GOD. There is no omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient God who would stand by and let these fuckholes do what they do in "his" name.
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Aha! I rather see it that theer is something out there but 'it' doesn't "monitor" the earth, if so, only passively, but I do find confort in the believe that there is something more after this miserable life.
You can find me in The KOSs2 (TK2) discord while I'm playing. Feel free to come and say hi! TK2 discord
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| Re: Church of FSM [message #176167 is a reply to message #176141] |
Mon, 24 October 2005 07:30 |
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Sniper_De7
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| Goztow wrote on Mon, 24 October 2005 05:58 |
| Crimson wrote on Mon, 24 October 2005 05:54 |
The fact that organized religion gets away with what they get away with is proof enough to me that there is NO GOD. There is no omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient God who would stand by and let these fuckholes do what they do in "his" name.
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Aha! I rather see it that theer is something out there but 'it' doesn't "monitor" the earth, if so, only passively, but I do find confort in the believe that there is something more after this miserable life.
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Who wouldn't? I think that's one of a religion's biggest way to convince people and it's pretty logical. I mean no one would seriously want to just die and rot in the earth, when considering the religious alternative is going wherever depending on what religion.
Oderint, dum metuant.
It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat. - Theodore "Teddy" Roosevelt
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| Re: Church of FSM [message #176181 is a reply to message #176140] |
Mon, 24 October 2005 08:28 |
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| Crimson wrote on Mon, 24 October 2005 05:54 |
Um, of course I know that all religion is not Catholicism... It was an example of how fucking EVIL organized religion is.
The fact that organized religion gets away with what they get away with is proof enough to me that there is NO GOD. There is no omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient God who would stand by and let these fuckholes do what they do in "his" name.
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Organized religion is very dangerous. It's one damn good reason why I'm no longer Catholic. It's very fucked up idealogy. However, just because organized religion is bad, doesn't mean that God is. God allows us to have freewill and do as we please with our lives. We'll soon see the consequences of our actions, but He's not going to prevent anyone from doing what they want.
Libertarian Party | The King's Throne | The Soda Shop
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| Re: Church of FSM [message #176194 is a reply to message #176181] |
Mon, 24 October 2005 11:40 |
runewood
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Why would god even interfear with us if that were ture. Why would he supposededly send his son to talk to us. If god wanted to not be known we wouldnt know about him. And if he is an observer why create the human race with evolution?
Alot of this may hold philosophical(cant spell) weight but, its not scientific. In order for god to have an effect in science you must assume he exists before there is any edv. to point out he does. Did you ever think that there is no creater and the universe has just always exsisted? I can't understand how it would work but you never know. How ever we arnt talking about the beggening of the universe. We arnt talking about if there is a god. We are talking about ID, and the fact is you must have faith to believe it, and faith is not science.
"Don't try to be a great man, just be a man. Let history make it's own judgments."
"Maybe its not the destination that matters, but the journey."
"How many people does it take before its wrong? A thousand? Fifty thousand? A million?"
"Im not here to tell you how it is going to end, Im here to tell you how it is going to begin."
"Its not the end or even the beggining of the end, mearly the end of the beggining."
"Logic is the beginning of wisdom; not the end."
[Updated on: Mon, 24 October 2005 11:42] Report message to a moderator |
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