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| Unit Balance [message #86677] |
Tue, 11 May 2004 02:58   |
Jorge
Messages: 22
Registered: April 2004
Karma: 0
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On this point: Raveshaw and PIC Syd both kill Orca/Apache in 4 shots. They have a 200m range as opposed to the Orca's 100m range. Are you going to nerf them too?
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There is one huge difference. PIC Syd and Raveshaw's only have one-shot clips, doing 80 damage per shot to Aircraft, they have to reload after everyshot and have a decent reload time, along with just 100m less range. Havoc/Sakura have 4 shot clips, that fire in rapid succession, with a faster reload, and they do 60 damage per shot to Aircraft from over 300m away. Stop compairing those units. One is designed to be anti-Tank, and the other Anti-Infantry.
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| Unit Balance [message #86686] |
Tue, 11 May 2004 05:18 |
KIRBY098
Messages: 1546
Registered: February 2003
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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| Javaxcx |
You forgot to mention that you have to play "buddy-buddy" with that delightful Raven character.
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A delightful chap, indeed.
Things just are not what they used to be around here.........
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| Unit Balance [message #86707] |
Tue, 11 May 2004 08:44 |
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Deathgod
Messages: 504
Registered: February 2003
Location: The House of B
Karma: 0
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| Jorge |
| Quote: |
On this point: Raveshaw and PIC Syd both kill Orca/Apache in 4 shots. They have a 200m range as opposed to the Orca's 100m range. Are you going to nerf them too?
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There is one huge difference. PIC Syd and Raveshaw's only have one-shot clips, doing 80 damage per shot to Aircraft, they have to reload after everyshot and have a decent reload time, along with just 100m less range. Havoc/Sakura have 4 shot clips, that fire in rapid succession, with a faster reload, and they do 60 damage per shot to Aircraft from over 300m away. Stop compairing those units. One is designed to be anti-Tank, and the other Anti-Infantry.
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Correction: One is anti-everything, one is anti-infantry and light armor.
And that difference on reload times isn't huge vs. an aircraft because generally the infantry can hide. One Raveshaw on the mesa on Walls will be able to remove aircraft pretty effectively, two is suicidal for aircraft to leave their base.
WOL: priestofb
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| Unit Balance [message #86763] |
Tue, 11 May 2004 16:52 |
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PointlessAmbler
Messages: 318
Registered: February 2004
Karma: 0
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[quote="Blazer"]| mrpirate |
Let me put it in other words...any changes will be map-specific, you will have a choice of playing/hosting the normal game/maps, or hosting/playing enhanced versions of old maps as well as new ones.
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Hell, that's better than what I was saying. If you're doing that, then there's really no reason for anyone to complain anymore, because the changes will be map-specific. Makes sense to me.
Red Alert: A Path Beyond Manual Writer
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| Unit Balance [message #86776] |
Tue, 11 May 2004 17:35 |
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SuperFlyingEngi
Messages: 1756
Registered: November 2003
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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Plus it would make the maps a whole lot more fun to play. I vote yes.
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -- Theodore Roosevelt (1918)
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| Unit Balance [message #86779] |
Tue, 11 May 2004 17:39 |
Homey
Messages: 1084
Registered: February 2003
Location: Canada
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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| Deathgod |
| Jorge |
| Quote: |
On this point: Raveshaw and PIC Syd both kill Orca/Apache in 4 shots. They have a 200m range as opposed to the Orca's 100m range. Are you going to nerf them too?
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There is one huge difference. PIC Syd and Raveshaw's only have one-shot clips, doing 80 damage per shot to Aircraft, they have to reload after everyshot and have a decent reload time, along with just 100m less range. Havoc/Sakura have 4 shot clips, that fire in rapid succession, with a faster reload, and they do 60 damage per shot to Aircraft from over 300m away. Stop compairing those units. One is designed to be anti-Tank, and the other Anti-Infantry.
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Correction: One is anti-everything, one is anti-infantry and light armor.
And that difference on reload times isn't huge vs. an aircraft because generally the infantry can hide. One Raveshaw on the mesa on Walls will be able to remove aircraft pretty effectively, two is suicidal for aircraft to leave their base.
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Yup, but if it were a 1v1 the rav might lose, depending on the orca. Hell a havoc or sakura is almost as likely to lose. What I prefer to do is rush up to the wall and repair then kill him.
Homey
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| Unit Balance [message #86857] |
Wed, 12 May 2004 02:27 |
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tanhm07
Messages: 56
Registered: March 2003
Location: singapore
Karma: 0
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Can someone, anyone, tell me how did they know that the Commando in CnC was using the Ramjet that havoc uses and not just another type of sniper rifle? If you can't, then stop comparing them. You're just assuming they both use the same weapon.
And erm, you're(those that want the change) asking what? To make gunners and rocket soldiers and anything with missiles anti aircraft? We, already have an anti aircraft unit - havoc/sakura. You want to replace an anti-aircraft unit, with what? another anti-aircraft unit?
You say that you don't use snipers to shoot at tanks and stuff because they get massive points, but others do, and you're complaining about it. What? you're complaining about what YOU and the others BOTH can ACHIEVE. But just because YOU don't do it, means THEY must not do it?
Played City_flying_exp? Flyingfox has pointed out. Every game, no one buys tanks anymore. All they do is get aircraft and zoom around City_flying_exp became a air dog fight instead of a multiplayer CnC. Missles did shit against them.
Missiles have range right? What's to stop an orca/apache to just continue flying straight until the missle goes boom because its out of range? And the locking sysem, it sucks.
Aircraft easily destroy everything in their path, as long as they are in range. They chew through infantry, high armoured vehicals, buildings. They have been so many god-damned times, when my havoc was taken out by aircraft by ambushing. ACK would know. A competent flyer, would not complain about ''OMG I CAN'T KILL THIS HAVOC NOOOO1!!'' You complain about havocs/sak making you unable to fly, GO TAKE OUT THE HON OR BARRACKS INSTEAD OF WHINING ABOUT IT.
Proud moderator of the-pitts
Want to play at The Pits - read the Rules first!
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| Unit Balance [message #86878] |
Wed, 12 May 2004 05:08 |
Phoenix - Aeon
Messages: 221
Registered: April 2004
Karma: 0
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We, already have an anti aircraft unit - havoc/sakura.
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The whole point is that sniper are not AA, they're AI/AP.
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| Unit Balance [message #86887] |
Wed, 12 May 2004 05:54 |
KIRBY098
Messages: 1546
Registered: February 2003
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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*YAWN*
Nice rant.
The point I am trying to make is this:
The extreme range of Havoc/Sakura doesn't allow the Air unit a fighting chance to even GET TO the area of the sniper without cover. Now I will grant that a skilled flyer can avoid a great deal of flak, but if there are two ramjets out there, it is next to impossible to get in range.
I know. I do this often to air units FROM MY BASE. And God help them if I am on the mesa looking down on thier base...
I am not looking for a fantastic flying p3n15 mobile here. Just dial the damage meted out down a bit. That's all.
And by asking the missiles to home on air targets we aren't exactly asking for the game to be revolutionized. Missiles have been self-tracking against air targets since 1971. Considering C&C's futuristic setting, I don't feel this is asking too much. Let them track, but shorten thier range so the aircraft have an out. Gunner has the ability to release 6 missiles quickly. That's a lot of missiles that would be flying around everywhere if the range wasn't dialed down.
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| Unit Balance [message #86962] |
Wed, 12 May 2004 13:43 |
Jorge
Messages: 22
Registered: April 2004
Karma: 0
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Correction: One is anti-everything, one is anti-infantry and light armor.
And that difference on reload times isn't huge vs. an aircraft because generally the infantry can hide. One Raveshaw on the mesa on Walls will be able to remove aircraft pretty effectively, two is suicidal for aircraft to leave their base.
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One is Anti-Vehicular, the other is Anti-Infantry. Yes, you "can" try to use a PIC or Railgun to kill infantry, but with their long reload time, and the fact that it takes 2 shots to kill infantry save a headshot, it makes them easy to kill with any non-Free Infantry, whether it be a Rocket Soldier Officer, SBH, Patch, Tib Syd, a 500 Sniper, and would utterly get owned by a Havoc.
Infantry hiding? Duh, that is the advantages of infantry, and can't Havoc/Sakuras not hide from Aircraft as well?
So you are saying going up against two Raveshaw's with a Orca is worse for the Orca than going up against two Havocs? The two Havocs would shoot you down as soon as your Orca came out from behidn the protection of the base.
Havoc/Sakura have over 100M greater range, do 60 HP per shot (compared to the 80 HP the PIC/Railgun does), and can probably get off 3 shots before the PIC/Railgun has reloaded. So lets see... 3X60=180 and 1X80=80. Comparing them is not going to get you anywhere, the Sniper is supposed to be Anti-Infantry while the PIC/Railgun is an anti-Vehicular weapon.
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| Unit Balance [message #86991] |
Wed, 12 May 2004 16:02 |
mahkra
Messages: 219
Registered: April 2004
Karma: 0
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| Jorge |
the Sniper is supposed to be Anti-Infantry while the PIC/Railgun is an anti-Vehicular weapon.
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If Havok were actually designed to be Anti-Helicopter, would people still be complaining that the game is "unbalanced" and whatnot? (and on that note, maybe havok actually IS designed to be anti-helicopter. who are we to say it's not intentionally the way it is?)
Basically I'm asking if the problem is that "snipers shouldn't be able to kill helicopters" or if the problem is that "snipers killing helicopters makes the game unbalanced." Because at first I thought people were trying to say the game was unbalanced (which I don't agree with), but everyone keeps mentioning that it "shouldn't work this way," which leads me to believe that people are more upset by snipers being an anti-helicopter unit than they are by the fact that helicopters can be effectively countered by infantry.
People keep saying that Havok/Sakura should not be able to kill vehicles because they're designed to be anti-infantry. But if you believe this, then shouldn't you also say that PICsydney/Raveshaw should not be able to kill infantry?
Really, the elite units are not as simple as Havok=anti-infantry, PIC=anti-vehicle, Mobius=anti-both. It's really more like Havok=anti infantry and anti light armor; PIC and Mobius = anti infantry, anti vehicles, and anti buildings. As it is, PIC and Mobius are already more useful than Havok. If Havok's damage vs light armor is negated, then he will be totally underpowered compared to the other elite units.
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| Unit Balance [message #87092] |
Thu, 13 May 2004 00:05 |
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Deathgod
Messages: 504
Registered: February 2003
Location: The House of B
Karma: 0
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| Jorge |
One is Anti-Vehicular, the other is Anti-Infantry. Yes, you "can" try to use a PIC or Railgun to kill infantry, but with their long reload time, and the fact that it takes 2 shots to kill infantry save a headshot, it makes them easy to kill with any non-Free Infantry, whether it be a Rocket Soldier Officer, SBH, Patch, Tib Syd, a 500 Sniper, and would utterly get owned by a Havoc.
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There's no "can" about it, pal. I decimate everything with a Rav/PIC. When I get one, I kill EVERYTHING I see. That includes, but is not limited to, enemy snipers (and all other infantry). You seem to be discounting the fact that free infantry die in one shot, just like with a Havoc/Sakura, and one headshot with a railgun or PIC kills anyone as well. That's pretty fucking important; if you're a good shot, which I am, that means you can potentially get 31 kills with that character, just under the 36 possible from a Havoc or Sakura, but you also do more damage to everything else as well. Rav/PIC is the most utilitarian character in the game for attacking with, period. If you think they're not effective, I question your intelligence.
| Jorge |
Infantry hiding? Duh, that is the advantages of infantry, and can't Havoc/Sakuras not hide from Aircraft as well?
So you are saying going up against two Raveshaw's with a Orca is worse for the Orca than going up against two Havocs? The two Havocs would shoot you down as soon as your Orca came out from behidn the protection of the base.
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And the two Raveshaws would also drop the Orca before it got into range, so your point is what? That the Havocs can shoot it down from 50% farther than the Rav can? Whee. I'd rather have a Rav/PIC any day; they're not going to be hampered if someone brings an APC to come slaughter your Havoc. Besides, I think it would be funnier and more demoralizing to shoot the vehicles down when they're in the field instead of in the base; people will just quit if you kill their stuff as they buy it, but if you let them think they have a chance they'll stick around longer so you can kill them more often. I'd argue that this psychological fact makes the Rav/PIC in fact the better choice by itself.
| Jorge |
Havoc/Sakura have over 100M greater range, do 60 HP per shot (compared to the 80 HP the PIC/Railgun does), and can probably get off 3 shots before the PIC/Railgun has reloaded. So lets see... 3X60=180 and 1X80=80. Comparing them is not going to get you anywhere, the Sniper is supposed to be Anti-Infantry while the PIC/Railgun is an anti-Vehicular weapon.
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Except that the PIC/Railgun hurts EVERYTHING a lot, you'd be right... You're disregarding the fact that Rav/PIC do that much damage per shot to all vehicles, can kill buildings (which snipers can't do), and only lose out on body shots to infantry, where they do 40 less damage (40, and not 50, because rail/PIC have 10 points of burn damage on top of the 200 per shot they do to infantry.).
Also, as a general FYI: Havoc/Sakura have 300m range, Rav/PIC is 200m, so it's not "over 100m," it is 100m greater. As I have said before though, if you're letting the sniper have a shot on you at that great of a distance you should be re-examining your tactics, as that (and not game balance) is to blame for your death.
WOL: priestofb
FUD Online for Renegade character details
The preceding post was sponsored by FUD.
We are the way, you are in the way.â„¢
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| Unit Balance [message #87149] |
Thu, 13 May 2004 10:17 |
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Aircraftkiller
Messages: 8213
Registered: February 2003
Karma: 0
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General (5 Stars) |
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People who say "giving aircraft the disadvantage of needing to reload at the Helicopter Pad is bad," don't forget that aircraft already have more advantages than any other unit does.
1. They fly.
2. They can hide easily with a properly designed level for flying (NOT STANDARD WS STUFF).
3. They're fast and maneuverable.
4. They have strong weapons (Ideally only the six missiles for the Orca and the 150-300 rounds on the Apache).
I'll reiterate, once more, aircraft in both C&C and reality are support units. They don't loiter over the battlefield endlessly, they have set amounts of ammunution, and they can't hold objectives.
In both C&C and reality, tanks and infantry hold objectives. I'm sure Kirby can tell you about this in more detail than I can. Aircraft can't hold objectives in war because they don't have staying power. Tanks and soldiers can sit there and hammer away at a target, or they can hold a point for reinforcements... Or just use that point as a breakthrough position to head through enemy lines and attack from the rear. Aircraft cannot do this because they get spotted with extreme ease when on the move. If they aren't moving, they're wasting fuel, and aren't going to be of much use to anyone unless they're hiding to ambush a column of armored vehicles.
Leaving "snipers" as they are now ends up leaving aircraft in a position where they're useless in 8 out of 10 situations. Making them rearm, not be able to loiter endlessly, and have more armor with more AA weapons makes them able to survive multiple threats without being shot down in three seconds from across a level.
It all comes down to that. You can leave them alone and have nearly useless vehicles, or upgrade the game and have vehicles that can do something useful; while not dominating everything.
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| Unit Balance [message #87156] |
Thu, 13 May 2004 10:30 |
KIRBY098
Messages: 1546
Registered: February 2003
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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Affirmative.
Air units are a support, and softening unit for the land warfare phase. No war has ever been won by air bombardment alone. You need troops on the ground to hold the territory.
They are VERY needy vehicles, and require tons of support personnel.
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| Unit Balance [message #87191] |
Thu, 13 May 2004 12:27 |
flyingfox
Messages: 1612
Registered: February 2003
Location: scotland, uk
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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| KIRBY098 |
You need troops on the ground to hold the territory.
They are VERY needy vehicles, and require tons of support personnel.
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Doesn't this kind of disprove your argument? They're needy vehicles as it is now, if they had the support to suppress the snipers they wouldn't have trouble on the field. However, I agree that they shouldn't loiter on the battlefield, they're too powerful for that and in the hands of a skilled player just flying ownage mobiles that can't be killed without a $1000 character.
City flying exp would have been more of a success HAD standard auto rifles done the same (or even more) damage to aircraft.
As for tracking rockets, I found a neat little trick to make them track every time. Once you fire a shot that tracks, use the right click on your mouse and the next shot'll seek too. Then, left click, right click and so on. Your missiles will always track targets and will help you against the apache (since the orca won't be as good at killing infantry targets with these new levels).
Edit, tanhm could you resize those pics? They're stretching the boundaries for 1024 * 768. I'd turn it up, but it's the max it can go.
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| Unit Balance [message #87193] |
Thu, 13 May 2004 12:33 |
KIRBY098
Messages: 1546
Registered: February 2003
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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No, these are not mutually exclusive at all.
Aircraft carriers serve one purpose. To launch aircraft, and every human on board that 6,000 man vessel knows it.
Air bases serve the same function. That airbase exists for only one reason.
Let's look at the first and second Gulf wars. The aircraft pummeled Iraq long before surface troops were able to support the missions. Aircraft getting shot down is not directly related to ground force control. Ask the helo pilots in Iraq...
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| Unit Balance [message #87210] |
Thu, 13 May 2004 13:09 |
flyingfox
Messages: 1612
Registered: February 2003
Location: scotland, uk
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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Nah, GDI soldiers could do only 80 damage per clip as opposed to 160. That was the trouble; it was too difficult to defend against apache/orca units if you lost your bax/hand. If they done the same damage, I think it would've turned out alright lest for the apache being useless against structures.
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