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| The protests. [message #8481] |
Fri, 21 March 2003 10:51  |
Carl
Messages: 165
Registered: March 2003
Location: Washington, US
Karma: 0
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first my stance on the war: I'm against it, and against the choices my leader is making
HOWEVER, as an american citizen i have a responsibilty to support my troops. They follow orders. I also have a responsibilty to support my president. I don't agree with it at all. HOWEVER, I support his decisions, because if i don't then it nullifies the whole meaning of this country.
I also feel however there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with a PEACEFUL protesting of the WAR. I'm not saying a protest of the troops. I can protest the war and support my troops at the same time. There is no flawed logic in this. I don't wan't my fellow citizens over there fighting in a war i don't agree with. I CARE about them too much.
I also feel that this bullshit like the blocking of highways etc is unacceptable. It accomplishes nothing, except to piss people off. A PEACEFUL protest should be nothing more than a gathering of people, NOT INFRINGING ON ANYONE elses 'unwritten rights' to live their lives without a 'blockade of people. In other words, there is nothing wrong with a protest in a park, or outside a federal building AS LONG as they don't create a blockade. It's peoples right to protest.
Furthermore, It angers me when people automatically assume that protesting the war = protesting soldiers. For me, and EVERYONE i know that disagree with the war, protesting the war != lack of troop/ gov't support.
I'm sure there are some that don't support the troops. But applying that one position to all protesters is absolutely ludicrous.
To restate, and make simple what i have just said:
[list]
[*]Protesting the War DOES NOT mean that a person DOESN'T support our country, leader, and/or troops.
[*]There is NOTHING wrong with peaceful protests.
[*]Peacefull protest means not interfering with traffic, not stopping people from going somewhere etc.
[*]Getting pissed at people for protesting the war makes no sense really. They are simply expressing their opinion.
[*]Automatically assuming that someone who protests the war DOES NOT support our leadership and DOES NOT support our troops, is not only unfair, and unjust, but it's just plain stupid.
[/list:u]
and finally, let's make a definition between SUPPORTING our troops and SUPPORTING the war. Im not sure i have been clear enough.
Supporting War: Supporting the war means you have no problem with the offensive incursion into Iraq. Plain and Simple.
Supporting the Troops: You may or MAY NOT agree with the offensive incursion, but you DO support our men, because you care about them too much not to.
Not Supporting War, AND NOT Supporting Troops: Makes you a complete and utter idiot. These kinds of persons are the reason that vietnam veterans were so despised upon return, which BTW was bullshit. Vietnam was a pointless war that we should have had nothing to do with. But not supporting the troops = idiocy.
I hope you guys understand the point I'm trying to make.
And calling somebody a jerkoff or something for not agreeing with the war is kind of BS. Really, do we call people idiots because they like different kind of foods? (lame analogy, but it gets the point across).
y0
http://www.dead6.net
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| The protests. [message #8484] |
Fri, 21 March 2003 11:04  |
KIRBY098
Messages: 1546
Registered: February 2003
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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Decent post. I respect your right to believe how you want, and appreciate the constructive way you explained your position. I personally support both the war, and the troops. I firmly believe in taking action on problems.
Debating war really is a moot point. We're human and we fight. It's the reason hippie communes never work out. Someone always gets bent about someone stealing thier granola, or sleeping with thier girlfriend despite thier freelove opinions. Kind of funny really. " hey! Give back that granola, and get off my girl, man!!" :rolleyes:
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| The protests. [message #8489] |
Fri, 21 March 2003 11:16 |
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Cpo64
Messages: 1246
Registered: February 2003
Location: Powell River, B.C. Canada
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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| Quote: |
I also have a responsibilty to support my president. I don't agree with it at all. HOWEVER, I support his decisions, because if i don't then it nullifies the whole meaning of this country.
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Is this realy the way you see things? I thought you had a 'Responsible Government'* If you don't agree with this decision, how can you suport it? How does you not supporting your government nullifie the meaning of your country? If that is so, that would mean that the entire populace of the USA is a group of polical sheep, and i simply refuse to beleve that.
Simply look at your recent past, the impeachment tryle on Clinton, the US was not 100% suportuve of his desisons then, but your country has not been nullified.
*The following link describes the Canadian version of Responsible Government. While I was looking for a clear description of Responsible Government, I came across a few articles that were fighting for Responsible Government in the US. You guys don't have “Responsible Government"? If that is so that explains much about how your government is run.
Now the link http://www2.marianopolis.edu/quebechistory/events/resgovt.htm
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| The protests. [message #8492] |
Fri, 21 March 2003 11:19 |
Carl
Messages: 165
Registered: March 2003
Location: Washington, US
Karma: 0
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| Cpo64 |
| Quote: |
I also have a responsibilty to support my president. I don't agree with it at all. HOWEVER, I support his decisions, because if i don't then it nullifies the whole meaning of this country.
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Is this realy the way you see things? I thought you had a 'Responsible Government'* If you don't agree with this decision, how can you suport it? How does you not supporting your government nullifie the meaning of your country? If that is so, that would mean that the entire populace of the USA is a group of polical sheep, and i simply refuse to beleve that.
Simply look at your recent past, the impeachment tryle on Clinton, the US was not 100% suportuve of his desisons then, but your country has not been nullified.
*The following link describes the Canadian version of Responsible Government. While I was looking for a clear description of Responsible Government, I came across a few articles that were fighting for Responsible Government in the US. You guys don't have “Responsible Government"? If that is so that explains much about how your government is run.
Now the link http://www2.marianopolis.edu/quebechistory/events/resgovt.htm
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perhaps my statement was a little confusing on that point. what i was trying to say, is that i support the our president until the next election to a certain extent. in otherwords, i have no choice but to support him until he is out of office. What would it look like to other countries if we didn't support our predsident at all? How would that PROMOTE democracy in any way, shape, or form?
y0
http://www.dead6.net
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| The protests. [message #8497] |
Fri, 21 March 2003 11:38 |
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Cpo64
Messages: 1246
Registered: February 2003
Location: Powell River, B.C. Canada
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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| Carl |
perhaps my statement was a little confusing on that point. what i was trying to say, is that i support the our president until the next election to a certain extent. in otherwords, i have no choice but to support him until he is out of office. What would it look like to other countries if we didn't support our predsident at all? How would that PROMOTE democracy in any way, shape, or form?
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If you had the option not to promote your president? It would look like a democratic. (Not that it doesn't  ) Don’t forget, that is the beauty of democratic. You don’t have to support your government, if you don’t like it, you can change it!
I don't know what you can do, because from what I can find you do not have a responsible form of government. But in Canada you can do something about it, you could petition for a recall campaign, and if enough of the citizens agree with you, that Member of Parliament (MP) will loose there seat, a by-election would be held and you would get a new MP. If enough MP's loose their sets, the government would lose their majority in the House of Commons, and a new government would be formed.
Your government seems very different; it is so different from mine it is hard to understand. Then again I find it difficult enough how anyone could support war.
In Canada we have the problem of no support for war (not bad) and no support for our forces (BAD!) Yet many Canadian complain that our military is small and outdated, but they are not willing to spend there tax dollars on it. Although due to recent events, more funding is being aimed at our forces.
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| The protests. [message #8501] |
Fri, 21 March 2003 11:44 |
Carl
Messages: 165
Registered: March 2003
Location: Washington, US
Karma: 0
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if people were always petitioning like that there would be so much distraction things would never get done. thats why there is a 4 year term. and a 2 term limit.
y0
http://www.dead6.net
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| The protests. [message #8504] |
Fri, 21 March 2003 11:53 |
KIRBY098
Messages: 1546
Registered: February 2003
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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Affirmative, and that's why:
U.S.A > Canada
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| The protests. [message #8508] |
Fri, 21 March 2003 12:06 |
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Cpo64
Messages: 1246
Registered: February 2003
Location: Powell River, B.C. Canada
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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| KIRBY098 |
Affirmative, and that's why:
U.S.A > Canada
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That was inappropriate, I never said one was better then the other, and most people (other then the US) see it differently. But that is unimportant what we are talking about is elections, and the fact is, our system while not perfect, works better then the US system. We have never had a Florida like incident.
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| The protests. [message #8515] |
Fri, 21 March 2003 12:22 |
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Crimson
Messages: 7428
Registered: February 2003
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Karma: 0
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General (5 Stars)
ADMINISTRATOR |
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The constitution of the United States, more specifically the Bill of Rights, grants you the RIGHT to speak your mind against the government, to disagree with the government, and even to bear arms to protect yourself from the government. The Checks and Balances system trickles down from the President down to the citizens.
Some people may THINK our system is flawed, and yet it has lasted over 200 years. Not many governments can say they've lasted in their original form as long. The "Florida issue" will not happen again because as a result of it, many states have changed their voting systems to more modern, accurate ones. Saying the Canadian system "works better" than the American system is your own opinion.
There is certainly a way to remove a president from power, and that's through impeachment. Fortunately, the checks and balances system more or less prevents a corrupted President from taking absolute power over the nation. Look at the case of Clinton. He was corrupt as they come and yet the nation still ran and stayed strong.
And, by the way, I can call someone who disagrees with the war an idiot. That's my opinion, just as it's your opinon that the war is unnecessary/wrong/whatever. One day, I hope your eyes are opened...
I'm the bawss.
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| The protests. [message #8517] |
Fri, 21 March 2003 12:29 |
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Cpo64
Messages: 1246
Registered: February 2003
Location: Powell River, B.C. Canada
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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| Crimson |
One day, I hope your eyes are opened...
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This statements scares me, many American attitudes towards this war scares me. My eyes opened to what exactly?
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| The protests. [message #8519] |
Fri, 21 March 2003 12:37 |
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Crimson
Messages: 7428
Registered: February 2003
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Karma: 0
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General (5 Stars)
ADMINISTRATOR |
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Currently, the US, and especially the world, is blinded. Blinded by the largest terrorist organization in the USA, and perhaps the world. The US Media. How does the world get their information about current events that are going on in here? Most likely, it's from the media... Too bad the Democrats control the media and their boy isn't in office, so the underlying message isn't going to be one that speaks of agreement with President Bush.
Once you can step back and look at all the facts and see how the Democrats and the liberals have been, you will see... your eyes will be opened.
I'm the bawss.
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| The protests. [message #8525] |
Fri, 21 March 2003 12:51 |
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Cpo64
Messages: 1246
Registered: February 2003
Location: Powell River, B.C. Canada
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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I simply don't understand, these sound like the ramblings of a cult leader.
Yes the media is misleading, that is why I don’t pay attention American media. Now you will say that Canadian media is influenced my American, that is true, I take all facts with extreme predigest.
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| The protests. [message #8529] |
Fri, 21 March 2003 12:55 |
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Crimson
Messages: 7428
Registered: February 2003
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Karma: 0
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General (5 Stars)
ADMINISTRATOR |
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Ad Hominem, do you speak it?
I only speak so harshly to get my point across. Now, stop arguing semantics and address the point.
I'm the bawss.
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| The protests. [message #8544] |
Fri, 21 March 2003 13:57 |
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Cpo64
Messages: 1246
Registered: February 2003
Location: Powell River, B.C. Canada
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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| Crimson |
Ad Hominem, do you speak it?
I only speak so harshly to get my point across. Now, stop arguing semantics and address the point.
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Sorry, that was not intended as an attack upon you. What is the point you wish me to address exactly?
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| The protests. [message #8552] |
Fri, 21 March 2003 14:12 |
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Crimson
Messages: 7428
Registered: February 2003
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Karma: 0
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General (5 Stars)
ADMINISTRATOR |
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The point where you say our system is flawed and Canada's is so much better.
I'm the bawss.
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| The protests. [message #8558] |
Fri, 21 March 2003 14:21 |
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Cpo64
Messages: 1246
Registered: February 2003
Location: Powell River, B.C. Canada
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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| Crimson |
The point where you say our system is flawed and Canada's is so much better.
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I did not say your system is flawed i said ours is. I said ours works better, not that it is better.
| Cpo64 |
our system while not perfect, works better then the US system.
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Our elections are faster, more accurate towards the attitude of each individual Canadian. These things make me thing that our system works better, it is my "opinion."
What points do you have that I have been misslead?
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| The protests. [message #8775] |
Sat, 22 March 2003 08:57 |
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Krazyfoxx
Messages: 194
Registered: February 2003
Location: WV
Karma: 0
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Recruit |
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| Crimson |
Currently, the US, and especially the world, is blinded. Blinded by the largest terrorist organization in the USA, and perhaps the world. The US Media. How does the world get their information about current events that are going on in here? Most likely, it's from the media... Too bad the Democrats control the media and their boy isn't in office, so the underlying message isn't going to be one that speaks of agreement with President Bush.
Once you can step back and look at all the facts and see how the Democrats and the liberals have been, you will see... your eyes will be opened.
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I've been staying out of this whole debate since it started, but I have to say now that you hit the nail on the head about the media (and, I feel, television programming in general as far as destroying moral standards). When my wife was pregnant with our son 2-1/2 years ago we decided to have our tv cable disconnected, and until you been without for a while it's hard to see just how evil the media is. Now alot of people (especially young ones with no children of their own) will say what good does it do keep kids away from tv and bad things, they're going to be exposed eventually. It's true that eventually they will be exposed, but I believe that the first 5 years (or so) of a child's life are the most influential, and you can do one of two things: shield them from evil as long as possible and teach them to do right, or expose them to everything (while partaking yourselve's) but tell them it's wrong and hope that they believe you vs. the rest of the world (ie. being brainwashed by the media). Personally, I think it's pointless to argue and insult each other over "facts" that have been learned by any source (media) other than first hand experience or "strait from the horse's mouth", and this is why I do not participate in these debates. For what it's worth though, I stand behind my Commander-in-chief 100%, and our troops 100%, and our country100%.
Semper Fi
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| The protests. [message #8810] |
Sat, 22 March 2003 12:37 |
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Crimson
Messages: 7428
Registered: February 2003
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Karma: 0
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General (5 Stars)
ADMINISTRATOR |
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I completely agree with that. Have you also noticed all the celebrities speaking out against the war... and since the celebrities are "our heroes" (referring only to the trend for most people to look up to them as heroes even though just because someone can act, doesn't mean they are intelligent in World affairs) they are able to influence their fans to think the way they do without even using their own brains to pick a side?
"Britney Spears is against the war, therefore, so am I."
Someone mentioned earlier that an interview was conducted on members of a group of protesters and some of them thought Osama Bin Laden was the leader of Iraq. :rolleyes:
I'm the bawss.
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| The protests. [message #9466] |
Tue, 25 March 2003 09:58 |
KIRBY098
Messages: 1546
Registered: February 2003
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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| Duke of Nukes |
Democrats do not control the media. It's always been in the medias interest to create conflict to make their station the best. It was the same throughout Clintons presidency...and I dont doubt that it's been that way with every president since Nixon. I dispise the media personally...although I dont think sheilding your child is the right thing to do. I see sheilding used to often...our next door neighbors threatened to get our dog put to sleep after their kid kicked our dog in the face and then it bit his jeans and he fell down. That's the kind of idiocy that shielding breeds...
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How, exactly, does those two issues link together? It shows lack of parenting skill, not shielding. You once again are drawing unspecified conclusions, based on unsupported, and unquantified information you probably heard from a website that quoted a rage against the machine concert.
Shielding is what breeds people who cannot support thier conclusions, because they have never had to actually deal with the aftermath of thier statements. Daddy always picks up the pieces for them. Think before you type, idiot.
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| The protests. [message #9520] |
Tue, 25 March 2003 12:40 |
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K9Trooper
Messages: 821
Registered: February 2003
Karma: 0
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Colonel |
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HERE ARE 10 THINGS TO CONSIDER WHEN VOICING AN OPINION ON THIS IMPORTANT ISSUE:
1) BETWEEN PRESIDENT BUSH AND SADDAM HUSSEIN ... HUSSEIN IS THE BAD GUY.
2) IF YOU HAVE FAITH IN THE UNITED NATIONS TO DO THE RIGHT THING KEEP THIS IN MIND, THEY HAVE LIBYA HEADING THE COMMITTEE ON HUMAN RIGHTS AND IRAQ HEADING THE GLOBAL DISARMAMENT COMMITTEE. DO YOUR OWN MATH HERE!
3) IF YOU USE GOOGLE SEARCH AND TYPE IN "FRENCH MILITARY VICTORIES", YOUR REPLY WILL BE "DID YOU MEAN FRENCH MILITARY DEFEATS?" (use I feel lucky button)
4) IF YOUR ONLY ANTI-WAR SLOGAN IS "NO WAR FOR OIL," SUE YOUR SCHOOL DISTRICT FOR ALLOWING YOU TO SLIP THROUGH THE CRACKS AND ROBBING YOU OF THE EDUCATION YOU DESERVE.
5) SADDAM AND BIN LADEN WILL NOT SEEK UNITED NATIONS APPROVAL BEFORE THEY TRY TO KILL US.
6) DESPITE COMMON BELIEF, MARTIN SHEEN IS NOT THE PRESIDENT. HE JUST PLAYS ONE ON T.V.
7) EVEN IF YOU ARE ANTI-WAR, YOU ARE STILL AN "INFIDEL!" AND BIN LADEN WANTS YOU DEAD, TOO.
 IF YOU BELIEVE IN A "VAST RIGHT-WING CONSPIRACY" BUT NOT IN THE DANGER THAT HUSSEIN POSES, QUIT HANGING OUT WITH THE DELL COMPUTER DUDE!
9) WE ARE TRYING TO LIBERATE THE IRAQI PEOPLE.
10) WHETHER YOU ARE FOR MILITARY ACTION OR AGAINST IT, OUR YOUNG MEN AND WOMEN OVERSEAS ARE FIGHTING FOR US TO DEFEND OUR RIGHT TO SPEAK OUT. WE ALL NEED TO SUPPORT THEM WITHOUT RESERVATION.
R.I.P. TreyD. You will be missed, but not forgotten.
[Updated on: Tue, 25 March 2003 20:42] Report message to a moderator |
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