Home » Tiberian Technologies / Blackhand Studios » Tiberian Technologies Forum » Fixing... Points?
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| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #348617 is a reply to message #348591] |
Fri, 29 August 2008 04:59   |
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Spoony
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| liquidv2 wrote on Fri, 29 August 2008 00:22 |
i don't understand why you believe it's possible to disprove an OPINION
it's a Do you want it: Yes or No question
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then you've paid absolutely zero attention to the debate. indeed, any of the debates.
the anti-pointsfix crowd continually try to explain their opinion by making statements like "westwood didn't intend this" or "you can't get points for tankfighting now", etc etc. When someone says this, it's not opinion they're trying to deal with, it's fact. When simpee says you can't get points for tankfighting now, he's not actually offering an opinion; he's TRYING to deal in facts... he's TRYING to use a mathematical argument. Unfortunately his maths are, quite simply, wrong.... demonstrably so. Just like the "westwood didn't intend it" stuff.
I've pointed this important distinction out about a dozen times; basically every time someone says something and gets proven wrong, they say "OMG ITS AN OPINION" so they don't have to admit it or reconsider. And yet the same nonsense is repeated again and again; you just gave it another airing. It's quite depressing that the difference between an opinion and a fact needs to be explained to an adult...
| liquidv2 wrote on Fri, 29 August 2008 00:22 |
the thing you said about everyone on the losing team losing the same amount of ladder points, that's good
except what happens to people who joined late with no chance of winning
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re-read the quote. I said there is a concession to players who only just joined. There currently is anyway... ladder takes into account how long you spent in the game. that's why someone who only just joined before the base died loses 0 ladder, whereas someone with a much higher score might lose -10.
| liquidv2 wrote on Fri, 29 August 2008 00:22 |
and what happens if people leave games to avoid losing ladder?
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Doesn't help them now, won't help them on the new system.
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| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #348665 is a reply to message #348617] |
Fri, 29 August 2008 22:16 |
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liquidv2
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| Quote: |
the anti-pointsfix crowd continually try to explain their opinion by making statements like "westwood didn't intend this" or "you can't get points for tankfighting now", etc etc. When someone says this, it's not opinion they're trying to deal with, it's fact.
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this really doesn't have anything to do with the topic i've suggested
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When simpee says you can't get points for tankfighting now, he's not actually offering an opinion; he's TRYING to deal in facts... he's TRYING to use a mathematical argument. Unfortunately his maths are, quite simply, wrong.... demonstrably so.
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no; he's saying that compared to before you get immensely less points for tankfighting
you're assuming too much yet again
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Just like the "westwood didn't intend it" stuff.
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shit, with westwood not around who knows what was or what wasn't intended; all we can do now is venture our best guesses based on the information we have, but we'll never know for sure
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I've pointed this important distinction out about a dozen times; basically every time someone says something and gets proven wrong, they say "OMG ITS AN OPINION" so they don't have to admit it or reconsider.
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explain how this applies to someone saying "I dislike the pointmod and do not want it used in clanwars."
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And yet the same nonsense is repeated again and again; you just gave it another airing. It's quite depressing that the difference between an opinion and a fact needs to be explained to an adult...
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you're trying to spin your way out of this; i just want you to get an honest count from your community about this issue, and it's clear you're avoiding it at all costs because it will show just how alone you really are
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| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #348681 is a reply to message #348646] |
Sat, 30 August 2008 05:04 |
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Crimson
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| RoShamBo wrote on Fri, 29 August 2008 15:34 |
| Crimson wrote on Fri, 29 August 2008 10:14 |
| RoShamBo wrote on Thu, 28 August 2008 23:04 |
| Crimson wrote on Fri, 29 August 2008 01:50 |
Apparently there is a "skill" metric hidden in the code for Renegade that only RoShamBo knows about. 
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Since when did WW/EA hand over the source to you?
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I never said they did...
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I never said anything about the original Renegade code, I specifically said "Your code".
Don't be so quick to jump on the bandwagon just because you have some sort of a grudge against me. All I did was voice my opinion.
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Well, as someone who has dabbled in programming, you should understand that there is special number hidden someone that equals skill. A mathematical formula must be devised to use actual, usuable figures such as whether or not the player was on the winning team, their points, their kills, their deaths, their building damage, repair damage, etc must be meshed together into an reasonably-agreeable "skill" measurement to determine who was actually the best player for the month.
You can't just throw a random "well make your formula do that" and expect us to try and figure out what the fuck that actually means.
I'm the bawss.
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| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #348691 is a reply to message #348665] |
Sat, 30 August 2008 09:36 |
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Spoony
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| liquidv2 wrote on Sat, 30 August 2008 00:16 |
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the anti-pointsfix crowd continually try to explain their opinion by making statements like "westwood didn't intend this" or "you can't get points for tankfighting now", etc etc. When someone says this, it's not opinion they're trying to deal with, it's fact.
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this really doesn't have anything to do with the topic i've suggested
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That's because you seem to think that it doesn't matter whether you know what the fuck you're talking about when it comes to deciding league policy. I happen to think it is rather important.
| liquidv2 wrote on Sat, 30 August 2008 00:16 |
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When simpee says you can't get points for tankfighting now, he's not actually offering an opinion; he's TRYING to deal in facts... he's TRYING to use a mathematical argument. Unfortunately his maths are, quite simply, wrong.... demonstrably so.
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no; he's saying that compared to before you get immensely less points for tankfighting
you're assuming too much yet again
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Why don't you actually read my posts?
Yes, he is saying that you get immensely less points for tankfighting.
AND HE HAS BEEN MATHEMATICALLY PROVEN WRONG.
I've said this over and over again; I'm getting a little tired of you absolutely failing to even read what I'm saying. I'll probably just put you on ignore to return the favour if you keep it up.
| liquidv2 wrote on Sat, 30 August 2008 00:16 |
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Just like the "westwood didn't intend it" stuff.
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shit, with westwood not around who knows what was or what wasn't intended; all we can do now is venture our best guesses based on the information we have, but we'll never know for sure
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Two things. Firstly, the evidence indicating that the pointsfix is what the points system ought to have been is ABSOLUTELY STAGGERING, and none of it has ever been refuted. Secondly, many people at Smak on the anti-pointsfix crowd have claimed that they DO know for sure that the pointsbug is what was really intended, in contradiction of all the evidence...
| liquidv2 wrote on Sat, 30 August 2008 00:16 |
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I've pointed this important distinction out about a dozen times; basically every time someone says something and gets proven wrong, they say "OMG ITS AN OPINION" so they don't have to admit it or reconsider.
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explain how this applies to someone saying "I dislike the pointmod and do not want it used in clanwars."
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Because, like I said, I happen to think that rules should be decided by people who actually know what they're talking about. At Clanwars.cc, rules are decided by considering them carefully, looking at the evidence, and making a logical determination... not by the rant and bullying and bending the truth that the anti-pointsfix crowd has done from the very beginning of the debate and still are doing. Secondly, if someone has managed to be spectacularly wrong about EVERY SINGLE FUCKING THING THEY'VE SAID (as everyone who's argued against the pointsfix on Smak has been... plus half of them have also demonstrated their willingness to lie about stuff to try to sway opinion), I rather object to their opinion on a rule having as much weight as mine.
This is in addition to the fact that everyone you're defending is hardly in a great position to tell me anything at all about what the league rules should be, remember? Those lovely six people you think should decide the rules? One cheater, three consistent rulebreakers, one guy who tried to kill the league out of anger at his friend being caught pointpushing, and one person who says the game's about to die but refuses to do anything about it. Compare those to me, the guy who solely owns the league and without whom it wouldn't exist... there, you now have two very good reasons why their opinions are worth considerably less than mine.
If you disagree with that, host your own league and run it democratically. Except we've already established that you don't think the players are worth your time and trouble.
Well, I say 'democratically'... if I don't have the right to control something that is entirely mine, it sounds a bit more like fascism or communism to me.
| liquidv2 wrote on Sat, 30 August 2008 00:16 |
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And yet the same nonsense is repeated again and again; you just gave it another airing. It's quite depressing that the difference between an opinion and a fact needs to be explained to an adult...
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you're trying to spin your way out of this
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No, I'm just proving you wrong yet again; predictably, you're too arrogant to admit it (again) so you just try to make me look like the bad guy.
| liquidv2 wrote on Sat, 30 August 2008 00:16 |
i just want you to get an honest count from your community about this issue
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Why? I've already given you extremely good reasons why league policy is not decided by majority. Why are you pretending you give a shit, when we've already established that you consider the league players to be utterly beneath you?
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| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #348692 is a reply to message #348690] |
Sat, 30 August 2008 09:40 |
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Spoony
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| RoShamBo wrote on Sat, 30 August 2008 10:28 |
It was my opinion and a suggestion. I do know how how hard it is to balance a formula like this, I don't see how different settings on different servers justifies them not being able to be on the ladder, if it's about skill.
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Two reasons.
Firstly if it misbalances the game (as the pointsbug does, as well as high starting credits, !donate, and those stupid crates), if they make the game unfair, the value of the ladder is significantly decreased.
Secondly, specifically referring to the pointsfix. I'll repeat what I said last page. A big part of how ladder points are awarded is based on in-game score. The points bug negatively effects that in-game score. With the pointsfix, individual score is all about how much damage you do. The points bug throws a bunch of stupid, illogical variables in there.
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| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #348696 is a reply to message #348692] |
Sat, 30 August 2008 10:48 |
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| Spoony wrote on Sat, 30 August 2008 17:40 |
| RoShamBo wrote on Sat, 30 August 2008 10:28 |
It was my opinion and a suggestion. I do know how how hard it is to balance a formula like this, I don't see how different settings on different servers justifies them not being able to be on the ladder, if it's about skill.
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Two reasons.
Firstly if it misbalances the game (as the pointsbug does, as well as high starting credits, !donate, and those stupid crates), if they make the game unfair, the value of the ladder is significantly decreased.
Secondly, specifically referring to the pointsfix. I'll repeat what I said last page. A big part of how ladder points are awarded is based on in-game score. The points bug negatively effects that in-game score. With the pointsfix, individual score is all about how much damage you do. The points bug throws a bunch of stupid, illogical variables in there.
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I'm not arguing against the points fix in anyway shape or form. My argument is that there is still no reason why the points fix, starting credits and other server settings would make a server exempt from the ladder. At the moment, yes, the ladder is based on your in-game scrore (sort of). So these settings can overall effect the ladder. I fully aggree with that.
My suggestion was that instead of excluding other servers from the ladder, why don't we create our own way of working out ladder points not based on damage or points. Rather, how much teamwork, and dedication a player has to winning the game.
I don't honestly think that a player should get top of the ladder for shooting at a building all game. Which at the moment, they would. I aggree that the other team do try and stop it, but it only needs to be doing it for a minute or so and it could just buy a new one. If however, the building was destroyed then everyone who helped should get ladder points.
[Updated on: Sat, 30 August 2008 10:48] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #348707 is a reply to message #348696] |
Sat, 30 August 2008 12:30 |
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Spoony
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| RoShamBo wrote on Sat, 30 August 2008 12:48 |
I'm not arguing against the points fix in anyway shape or form. My argument is that there is still no reason why the points fix, starting credits and other server settings would make a server exempt from the ladder.
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sigh...
...I'll repeat myself again...
if they make the game unfair
| RoShamBo wrote on Sat, 30 August 2008 12:48 |
My suggestion was that instead of excluding other servers from the ladder, why don't we create our own way of working out ladder points not based on damage or points. Rather, how much teamwork, and dedication a player has to winning the game.
I don't honestly think that a player should get top of the ladder for shooting at a building all game. Which at the moment, they would. I aggree that the other team do try and stop it, but it only needs to be doing it for a minute or so and it could just buy a new one. If however, the building was destroyed then everyone who helped should get ladder points.
Without something to stop those people who join a game and do whatever it takes to get MVP with as little work or worth to their team as possible then the ladder is not going to work.
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read what I said about everyone on the losing team losing the same amount of ladder, regardless of individual score.
This means that winratio, under my ladder formula, is way more important than it was. If your team doesn't win, it doesn't matter a damn bit whether you had 10000 points or 10. If your team wins, however, then by all means the players who did the most damage (yes, this includes shooting a building with an artillery whether you realise it or not) get the highest ladder profit.
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| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #348711 is a reply to message #348707] |
Sat, 30 August 2008 12:50 |
msgtpain
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| Spoony wrote on Sat, 30 August 2008 15:30 |
| RoShamBo wrote on Sat, 30 August 2008 12:48 |
I'm not arguing against the points fix in anyway shape or form. My argument is that there is still no reason why the points fix, starting credits and other server settings would make a server exempt from the ladder.
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sigh...
...I'll repeat myself again...
if they make the game unfair
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Great! so we can all assume that servers without the outside PT fix will not be allowed on the ladder..
that's wonderful news..
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| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #348714 is a reply to message #348710] |
Sat, 30 August 2008 12:54 |
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Spoony
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| RoShamBo wrote on Sat, 30 August 2008 14:41 |
Don't you think a good player on a losing team should be rewarded?
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No. Two reasons.
Firstly the game is specifically designed so that your team wins or loses.
Secondly, the biggest problem with the "old" ladder system was the fact the highest scoring players on the losing side didn't lose ladder. The MVP on the losing team would lose -0 ladder, even if his team was absolutely crushed. The result of this was that it didn't really matter that much how many games you won; it just mattered how much you played and if you were MVP. Someone who just played for MVP but didn't really care if his team won could easily be top of the ladder.
The solution to prevent "game-spam" (as we call it at clanwars, because this is a question we've faced in a dozen different leagues) is to make it so you lose a significant amount of ladder points when you lose. There's no other way to solve the problem.
| RoShamBo wrote on Sat, 30 August 2008 14:41 |
Wont that mean more players will leave if they see that the other team going to win?
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I don't see why. Currently, even if your team's being absolutely demolished, you can salvage your ladder just by getting MVP, and getting MVP on the losing side is pretty fucking easy, it'll usually go to whoever fixed a building for longest. (MVP on the winning side generally requires a bit more skill and teamwork).
On my system, if your team's losing, there is one and only one thing you can do about it if you care about ladder: help your team win instead.
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| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #348715 is a reply to message #348711] |
Sat, 30 August 2008 12:56 |
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Spoony
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| msgtpain wrote on Sat, 30 August 2008 14:50 |
Great! so we can all assume that servers without the outside PT fix will not be allowed on the ladder..
that's wonderful news..
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If the outside-PT fix will misbalance the game to anything like the extent that high starting credits or !donate do, then I have yet to be convinced of it. That may be because it hasn't actually been tested yet...
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| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #348717 is a reply to message #348715] |
Sat, 30 August 2008 12:58 |
msgtpain
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Well, I really think we need to form a comittee to study the efects of some of these things... as the "balance coordinator" I'm surprised that you haven't noticed the "unfairness" of one team having invisible soldiers either.. Or that same team having a soldier that is almost immune to the damage of two of the other teams characters... these items strike me as "extremely unfair".. and if we're "balancing" the game, we should take a sincere look at them as well...
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| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #348718 is a reply to message #348715] |
Sat, 30 August 2008 13:01 |
msgtpain
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| Spoony wrote on Sat, 30 August 2008 15:56 |
If the outside-PT fix will misbalance the game to anything like the extent that high starting credits or !donate do, then I have yet to be convinced of it. That may be because it hasn't actually been tested yet...
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You're absolutely right.. I can't see how the points-bug causes anywhere near as much "misbalance" as a player spending 1400 credits being robbed of his 700 points by a player purchasing a different character 35 meters away from where they should be able to...
The PT glitch seems to unbalance the game far more to me... but hey, I'm not a "balance coordinator" so what do I know?
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| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #348719 is a reply to message #348718] |
Sat, 30 August 2008 13:08 |
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Spoony
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| msgtpain wrote on Sat, 30 August 2008 15:01 |
Well, I really think we need to form a comittee to study the efects of some of these things... as the "balance coordinator" I'm surprised that you haven't noticed the "unfairness" of one team having invisible soldiers either..
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SBH are unbalanced? Overpowered? Please  Maybe in weapons drop servers where they can pick up C4s and whatnot... not in pure renegade they're not.
| msgtpain wrote on Sat, 30 August 2008 15:01 |
Or that same team having a soldier that is almost immune to the damage of two of the other teams characters... these items strike me as "extremely unfair".. and if we're "balancing" the game, we should take a sincere look at them as well...
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Chem troopers being near-immune to Patch and Tib Sydney, two of GDI's most useless units, is extremely unfair? This is entirely irrelevant if, as a GDI player, you get something which is actually useful...
| msgtpain wrote on Sat, 30 August 2008 15:01 |
You're absolutely right.. I can't see how the points-bug causes anywhere near as much "misbalance" as a player spending 1400 credits being robbed of his 700 points by a player purchasing a different character 35 meters away from where they should be able to...
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Saying this doesn't prove the PT bug, or a fix for it, misbalances the game.
| msgtpain wrote on Sat, 30 August 2008 15:01 |
but hey, I'm not a "balance coordinator" so what do I know?
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After reading your comments on SBH's and chem troopers, I'm inclined to agree.
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| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #348723 is a reply to message #348719] |
Sat, 30 August 2008 13:21 |
msgtpain
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I can only assume that you're mildly retarded, or a politician.. There really is no other explanation for your ability to completely ignore items presented to you and continue your arguments..
I'll say it once, just for the record, so it's in this thread... then I'm going to go play the game rather than continue to debate with a spud.
If your big deal is "balance" and "fairness"... Then there is no possibly way that you can pretend that what I have suggested isn't relevant, at least not with a straight face.. you're either lying to yourself, or (see above).
If one team has the ability to walk in to the other teams base 'invisible' and 'undetected'.. that right there misbalances the game.. no argument you can make can disprove that. One team can do it, the other team can't.. nothing more needs to be said.. you might try your little retort that "yea, well a team using teamwork won't let them walk in!" but that's simply a circular argument, exactly the same as why "you shouldn't let the other team shoot at your tanks" doesn't work as a defense against the pointsfix.
Anyway, so regardless of their "power", they are still invisible. Both teams get the same number of mines.. but GDI has to mine twice as many places as Nod, cause DUH.. Nod can simply see someone walking there and GDI can't..
And I dont' even need to elaborate on the PT bug, cause you with all your "argument fallacy" bullshit should already be able to see what's wrong with your "saying it doesn't make it so" response.
What's next, "Nuh uh! I know you are, but what am I?"
Where did your MasterDebater skills go?
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| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #348725 is a reply to message #348723] |
Sat, 30 August 2008 13:56 |
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| msgtpain wrote on Sat, 30 August 2008 15:21 |
I can only assume that you're mildly retarded, or a politician.. There really is no other explanation for your ability to completely ignore items presented to you and continue your arguments..
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Are you retarded or blind?
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I'll say it once, just for the record, so it's in this thread... then I'm going to go play the game rather than continue to debate with a spud.
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Of course, using ad hominem doesn't help your argument, and don't even bother stating above, it's a statement. And I used it below because you are such a dumbass.
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If your big deal is "balance" and "fairness"... Then there is no possibly way that you can pretend that what I have suggested isn't relevant, at least not with a straight face.. you're either lying to yourself, or (see above).
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You are a fucking idiot, SBHs are underpowered, NOT overpowered.
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If one team has the ability to walk in to the other teams base 'invisible' and 'undetected'.. that right there misbalances the game.. no argument you can make can disprove that. One team can do it, the other team can't.. nothing more needs to be said.. you might try your little retort that "yea, well a team using teamwork won't let them walk in!" but that's simply a circular argument, exactly the same as why "you shouldn't let the other team shoot at your tanks" doesn't work as a defense against the pointsfix.
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Yes, and 1 SBH can do what? C4 1 MCT with his only brick of Timed C4? While at the mean time you can blow up that SBH's base with a Hotwire+Tank or Hotwire herself. Plus, OH SHIT LOOK, SBHs CAN'T get in bases with, oh my, the AGT.
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Anyway, so regardless of their "power", they are still invisible. Both teams get the same number of mines.. but GDI has to mine twice as many places as Nod, cause DUH.. Nod can simply see someone walking there and GDI can't..
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Have you ever tried walking near a SBH? Yeah, not so invisible now.
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And I dont' even need to elaborate on the PT bug, cause you with all your "argument fallacy" bullshit should already be able to see what's wrong with your "saying it doesn't make it so" response.
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What the fuck.
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What's next, "Nuh uh! I know you are, but what am I?"
Where did your MasterDebater skills go?
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No, you pulled all your argument (If we can call it that, it's really just bullshit) out of your ass.
Have you ever even played Renegade?
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[19:16:48] <APBBR> @ryan3k: THE ENFIELD DEFIES THE LAWS OF PHYSICS BECAUSE THE BULLETS INSTANTLY HIT THEIR TARGETS LOL
[19:16:52] <APBBR> @ryan3k: CHRONO TECHNOLOGY IN TEH BULLETS
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[22:48]<APBBR> @V0LK0V: AOL COMING UR WAI K
[22:48] <APBBR> Host: Quitting due to Westwood Online connection loss.
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[Updated on: Sat, 30 August 2008 13:58] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #348727 is a reply to message #348723] |
Sat, 30 August 2008 14:01 |
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Spoony
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| msgtpain wrote on Sat, 30 August 2008 22:21 |
I can only assume that you're mildly retarded, or a politician.. There really is no other explanation for your ability to completely ignore items presented to you and continue your arguments..
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Except I didn't ignore anything you presented. I responded to it all, didn't I?
| msgtpain wrote on Sat, 30 August 2008 22:21 |
If your big deal is "balance" and "fairness"... Then there is no possibly way that you can pretend that what I have suggested isn't relevant, at least not with a straight face.. you're either lying to yourself, or (see above).
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I didn't say it isn't relevant, I said it isn't unbalanced.
| msgtpain wrote on Sat, 30 August 2008 22:21 |
If one team has the ability to walk in to the other teams base 'invisible' and 'undetected'.. that right there misbalances the game.. no argument you can make can disprove that. One team can do it, the other team can't.. nothing more needs to be said..
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What the fuck? "Nothing more needs to be said"? Nod has SBHs and that automatically makes Nod overpowered because GDI doesn't have SBHs?
Good lord. If you want to determine fairness and balance, you need to look at everything, not just one unit that Nod has and GDI doesn't. GDI has far better base infantry, can acquire money faster, has better APCs, better aircraft, and the overall awesomeness of the medium tank. Nod having an invisible soldier doesn't weigh the same as all those strengths. When you add together all Nod's plus points... the arty, the light tank, the stealth tank, the flamer, the LCG, AND the sbh... then yes, they're balanced.
| msgtpain wrote on Sat, 30 August 2008 22:21 |
you might try your little retort that "yea, well a team using teamwork won't let them walk in!" but that's simply a circular argument, exactly the same as why "you shouldn't let the other team shoot at your tanks" doesn't work as a defense against the pointsfix.
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uh no, there's no realistic way to prevent your opponents shooting tanks with ramjets, whereas there are very very real ways to prevent SBH's walking into your base, and even if you fail at that, there are also ways to prevent them doing any damage once they're in.
| msgtpain wrote on Sat, 30 August 2008 22:21 |
And I dont' even need to elaborate on the PT bug, cause you with all your "argument fallacy" bullshit should already be able to see what's wrong with your "saying it doesn't make it so" response.
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There is one sentence which sums up your entire position: "I don't even need to elaborate on the PT bug". You just say it's unbalanced and boom, it's unbalanced, debate closed. Don't need any solid logic or proof, right?
I've already acknowledged the fact that the reason I don't think the PT fix will misbalance the game MIGHT be because we haven't actually had the chance to test the PT fix yet.
| msgtpain wrote on Sat, 30 August 2008 22:21 |
What's next, "Nuh uh! I know you are, but what am I?"
Where did your MasterDebater skills go?
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Would they be the ones that sent you limping away in shame the last 20 or 30 times you came out of nowhere and tried to flame me about something? Cos if you recall, every single time you've done that it turned out you had no clue what you were talking about... but after your childish rant was refuted, you didn't admit you were wrong or even chill out towards me, you just stopped posting for a few weeks then tried again about something else.
That's a little off-topic, but then so were your two last lines.
Unleash the Renerageâ„¢
Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
- noun
1. the inevitable criticism one receives after doing something awful
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