Home » General Discussions » General Discussion » Public announcement: Points Bug Fix
| Public announcement: Points Bug Fix [message #286019] |
Sun, 23 September 2007 20:53  |
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Crimson
Messages: 7428
Registered: February 2003
Location: Phoenix, AZ
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General (5 Stars)
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I am presenting this in two versions. The short version for those of you with ADD, and the long version for those of you who want to debate about the subject and/or know all the gory details.
SHORT VERSION
BlackIntel discovered a bug in the points calculation code while doing research for BIATCH. Fixing this bug results in a better-balanced gameplay by (most noticeably) removing the disproportionate point gains you would get from doing negligible damage to heavy-armored units.
This points fix has been running on a few servers, such as Jelly (AOW1), n00bstories, SpoonyServ, and BlackIntel for roughly 2 months. The Ladder Team is confident that this fix provides a more balanced and more fun game experience for the majority of players. We also feel that this is a crucial component to balancing the ladder calculations and will therefore be requiring the use of this fix for servers that wish to participate in the ladder.
LONG VERSION (under spoiler)
(if you wish to debate this subject, we INSIST that you become familiar with these facts and figures)
Click here to read the LONG VERSION
| StealthEye of BlackIntel (emphasis added) |
It definitely is a bug, notice how it behaves differently on health than on armor as well. (You don't get many points for shooting health with those weapons). The bug affects all damage on armor with a warhead multiplier of != 1, because it is the warhead multiplier that is missing.
Actually, it calculates points like this:
vehicledamagemultiplier * rawdamage * warheadmultiplier / warheadmultiplier
It should be:
vehicledamagemultiplier * rawdamage * warheadmultiplier
Because the warheadmultiplier is low for ramjets, and rawdamage (see the tables on http://www.blackintel.org/?page=projects/biatch/weaponinfo) is high, the effect of the missing multiplier is highest. Repair guns have a warheadmultiplier of 1, so those are not affected. C4 2 -> will do half of the points it should do. All other weapons are <1, therefore all those will give more points than they were supposed to. Because the multipliers are closer to 1 it will be less visible though.
With the bug fixed, you always get half of the points for repairing than for damaging a vehicle, and you always (regardless of the weapon you used) get the same amount for damaging or killing a vehicle (assuming it was not repaired ofcourse).
Without the bugfix, it mostly depends on the weapon you use to damage something with. More than it matters which thing you are damaging or the amount of damage you actually do.
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Spoony has made the following observations:
- Letting the WF die isn't valid anymore. On some maps - notably Field, but to a lesser extent Walls Flying and Islands, GDI could turn a losing situation into an advantage by purposely letting their Weapons Factory die. It then became an uphill struggle for Nod, to the point where Nod would still lose despite having a better team. The only reason this worked at all was the points ramjets gained against tanks, something which has always been a bug and something nobody has been able to logically justify why it should happen at all.
- The points fix means that letting certain buildings die is no longer the clear advantage it used to be, which helps balance these maps. Gaining an advantage by letting buildings die is clearly wrong, and the fact it only worked because of a bug Westwood didn't intend goes to show it's better off fixed.
- One person in a vehicle isn't teamhampering. Often, many players would dissuade their teammates from using tanks because they'd feed huge points to enemy ramjets (again, something that shouldn't happen). The points fix wipes this problem clean - one new player buying a mammoth or stank or flame tank is no longer a hindrance to their team, even if they don't achieve much with it.
- People have to use ramjets for stuff they're meant to do (light vehicles and infantry) instead of getting massive points doing something they're meant to useless for.
- More aggressive play is generally more beneficial. For example, on Field, tanks can attack enemy tanks from relative safety close to their base entrance, as opposed to moving all the way up to attack enemy buildings. Taking this higher risk is now worth relatively higher rewards.
- Spoony has noted no detrimental effects whatsoever to clan games or 1v1's.
On the following chart, "Previous points per shot" value is based on shots on the armour wth a PIC/Rave/havoc/sakura. "Current points per shot" is based on PIC/RAVE doing 80 real damage on a vehicle. For vehicles with light armour it might deal more damage and thus get more points.
Object name Damage points Previous points per shot Current points per shot
CnC_GDI_Mammoth_Tank 0.06 12 4.8
CnC_Nod_Harvester 0.04 8 3.2
CnC_GDI_Harvester 0.04 8 3.2
CnC_Nod_Apache 0.15 30 12
CnC_GDI_Orca 0.15 30 12
CnC_Nod_Stealth_Tank 0.11 22 8.8
CnC_GDI_Medium_Tank 0.05 10 4
CnC_Nod_Flame_Tank 0.05 10 4
CnC_Nod_Transport 0.09 18 7.2
CnC_GDI_Transport 0.09 18 7.2
CnC_Nod_Light_Tank 0.05 10 4
CnC_Nod_APC 0.04 8 3.2
CnC_GDI_APC 0.04 8 3.2
CnC_GDI_MRLS 0.06 12 4.8
CnC_Nod_Mobile_Artillery 0.06 12 4.8
CnC_GDI_Humm-vee 0.06 12 4.8
CnC_Nod_Buggy 0.06 12 4.8
The following chart details "Damage points" (point gain per 1 damage dealt), "Death points" (bonus for causing the final death), "Total death points" (points gained for causing damage from start to finish):
Object name Damage points Death points Total death points
CnC_GDI_Mammoth_Tank 0.06 75 147
CnC_Nod_Harvester 0.04 50 98
CnC_GDI_Harvester 0.04 50 98
CnC_Nod_Apache 0.15 45 90
CnC_GDI_Orca 0.15 45 90
CnC_Nod_Stealth_Tank 0.11 45 89
CnC_GDI_Medium_Tank 0.05 40 80
CnC_Nod_Flame_Tank 0.05 40 80
CnC_Nod_Transport 0.09 35 71
CnC_GDI_Transport 0.09 35 71
CnC_Nod_Light_Tank 0.05 30 60
CnC_Nod_APC 0.04 25 49
CnC_GDI_APC 0.04 25 49
CnC_GDI_MRLS 0.06 23 46.5
CnC_Nod_Mobile_Artillery 0.06 23 46.5
CnC_GDI_Humm-vee 0.06 18 35.5
CnC_Nod_Buggy 0.06 15 30
Some people will come back and say that you get "no points" for shooting tanks. These charts prove that is NOT the case.
Spoony has also discovered that if you look at the "Total Death Points" for vehicles and round them to the nearest multiple of 5, then compare them to the cost of the vehicle, you get this:
| Quote: |
syntax: vehicle/total points/cost
Mammoth Tank: 150/1500
Harvester: 100/not applicable
Apache/Orca: 90/900
Stealth Tank: 90/900
Medium Tank: 80/800
Flame Tank: 80/800
Chinook: 70/700
Light Tank: 60/600
APC: 50/500
MRLS: 45/450
Artillery: 45/450
Hummvee: 35/350
Buggy: 30/300
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Many people are already aware that for infantry, the total points gained for start-to-finish death is 10% of the cost of the unit. (exception: free infantry = 3 points) This also proves that the previous point calculation was definitely a bug.
What happens on a server with the fix installed?
Actual damage is not affected at all. What changes is points.
Points gained by attacking green-health vehicles are calculated the way Westwood intended them to be, the way they currently are against yellow/red health vehicles. Therefore, all weapons gain points which are directly proportional to the amount of damage they're doing.
Examples of how this will fix the game:
- Ramjets, 500 snipers, Auto rifles, shotguns and pistols will get practically nothing for attacking vehicles they don't damage (i.e. heavy armoured tanks)
- Ramjets, 500 snipers, Auto rifles, shotguns, pistols, APCs, humvees/buggies, and orca/apache machineguns get the right points for attacking light armoured vehicles - in other words, the same points a tank would get for doing the same amount of damage
- APCs, humvees/buggies, and orca/apache machineguns get the right points for attacking heavy armoured vehicles - in other words, an apache or an APC gets the same points for killing a harvester that a tank would get for killing a harvester
- C4 gets somewhat more points for attacking vehicles than they do now, roughly double.
- Tanks get somewhat less points for attacking green-health vehicles than they do now - they get what they're supposed to get, which is what they currently get against yellow/red health vehicles.
In a nutshell, it no longer matters what weapon is used to kill, for example, a harvester - the total points gain is constant whether it is destroyed by infantry C4, a tank, an APC or an Apache.
Other observations seen:
- A team who loses the field early has a much better chance of getting it back, whereas before the team who took the field early almost always held it. Also, in most cases, the points difference is not as vast as it was before, meaning the team that got the field back has a real chance of coming back to win.
- Mammoths are actually worth 1500 points and people who are new to the game can buy one without hurting their team as much
- Failed Stealth Tank rushes don't give GDI nearly as many points as it used to. The result of this is that you aren't stuck trying these rushes all game because you are so behind on points that base destruction is your only chance to win.
- Closer scores overall make for more exciting and fun games rather than 30+ minutes of domination and boredom for the losing team.
New players will find that:
[list type=square]
[*]If they save up for a mammoth, stank, or flamer thinking they'll devastate the enemy team single-handedly, or if they fix the Weapons Factory in the belief that keeping it alive will help the team, they don't get barraged with insults by their teammates anymore.
[*]They're no longer fooled by the points bug into thinking that shooting heavy tanks with an automatic rifle is helping their team's situation
[/spoiler]
Remember, POINTS, NOT DAMAGE, are the only thing affected by this fix!
I'm the bawss.
[Updated on: Thu, 01 October 2009 07:34] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Public announcement: Points Bug Fix [message #286022 is a reply to message #286019] |
Sun, 23 September 2007 21:19  |
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luv2pb
Messages: 1488
Registered: February 2004
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General (1 Star)
Not everything is as it appears
Untouchable |
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Why now? Many servers (including us) have already been through this shit storm since we started running this months ago. Why are we visiting it again now?
N00bstories Director Of Operations
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| Re: Public announcement: Points Bug Fix [message #286031 is a reply to message #286022] |
Sun, 23 September 2007 22:15 |
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Crimson
Messages: 7428
Registered: February 2003
Location: Phoenix, AZ
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General (5 Stars)
ADMINISTRATOR |
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| luv2pb wrote on Sun, 23 September 2007 21:19 |
Why now? Many servers (including us) have already been through this shit storm since we started running this months ago. Why are we visiting it again now?
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Because the people who play in servers that are not running the points fix need to know about it, too.
I'm the bawss.
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| Re: Public announcement: Points Bug Fix [message #286046 is a reply to message #286019] |
Mon, 24 September 2007 00:48 |
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Crimson
Messages: 7428
Registered: February 2003
Location: Phoenix, AZ
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General (5 Stars)
ADMINISTRATOR |
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It has not been officially released. It will be part of a patch/DLL/whatever that will make it a requirement to be on the official ladder. Servers are still welcome to not use the fix, but those games will not count towards their ladder rank.
I'm the bawss.
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| Re: Public announcement: Points Bug Fix [message #286072 is a reply to message #286019] |
Mon, 24 September 2007 04:37 |
GsXr1400
Messages: 182
Registered: August 2007
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Recruit |
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basically you made GDI unstobable if you kno how to drive a med..
because the points fix is all about owning the other tanks and hitting the buildings.
And GDI Med if you can drive you can rape many tanks..
ltanks get raped by meds..so do artys + stanks do..
But for public servs youve made it more balanced.
only map where nod is better now is Field.
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| Re: Public announcement: Points Bug Fix [message #286087 is a reply to message #286019] |
Mon, 24 September 2007 06:57 |
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DutchNeon
Messages: 533
Registered: January 2007
Location: The Netherlands
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Colonel |
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I Created a topic about it on the gamerz0ne/fnfall server forums, hoping to get it introduced. This also means that Snipers mostly will not get MVP's anymore and the game will be more as --> Getting points with Vehicles, and the effectivness of what your weapon can do (Harming light vechs with ramjet, Heavy with railgun)?
Also, Enforcing teams with only a barracks by getting more pics/ravs then havocs as point whoring with ramjets wont work anymore in points?
[Updated on: Mon, 24 September 2007 07:19] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Public announcement: Points Bug Fix [message #286088 is a reply to message #286072] |
Mon, 24 September 2007 07:24 |
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Spoony
Messages: 3915
Registered: January 2006
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General (3 Stars)
Tactics & Strategies Moderator |
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In a nutshell, you get the points for the damage you're doing, not what you're using to do the damage. Significantly, buildings are worth more than tanks and infantry are, which rewards offensive play and successful offensives.
For example, on Field you it's now much more worthwhile to move further up and hit buildings, rather than simply sitting at your base entrance and hitting enemy tanks. Moving up is riskier, therefore more skill is involved. It works out nicely.
| SoQReaL wrote on Mon, 24 September 2007 06:37 |
basically you made GDI unstobable if you kno how to drive a med..
because the points fix is all about owning the other tanks and hitting the buildings.
And GDI Med if you can drive you can rape many tanks..
ltanks get raped by meds..so do artys + stanks do..
But for public servs youve made it more balanced.
only map where nod is better now is Field.
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and under, and wallsfly. The other maps are fair anyway... those three weren't, and now they are.
as for meds owning all, if anything the pointsfix addresses it, rather than making it worse. Look at Field... GDI didn't even need to leave their half of the map to win it before. Now they do.
| Quote: |
Also, Enforcing teams with only a barracks by getting more pics/ravs then havocs as point whoring with ramjets wont work anymore in points?
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Havocs are still powerful against light vehicles, and they still get respectable points for doing so. They get less than they did, however (the points they did get was frankly ridiculous) and they get diddly squat against heavy armour, which is absolutely logical and definitely improves gameplay.
Unleash the Renerageâ„¢
Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
- noun
1. the inevitable criticism one receives after doing something awful
[Updated on: Mon, 24 September 2007 07:26] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Public announcement: Points Bug Fix [message #286097 is a reply to message #286094] |
Mon, 24 September 2007 08:16 |
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IronWarrior
Messages: 2460
Registered: November 2004
Location: England UK
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General (2 Stars) |
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| Caveman wrote on Mon, 24 September 2007 10:01 |
| IronWarrior wrote on Mon, 24 September 2007 15:59 |
Well, first I've heard about it and it sounds total shite to be honest.
This sounds like ego boosting, e-penis crap bullshit to be honest.
You should get points for shooting anything with whatever weapon or vehicle you are using.
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And you do but what they're saying is you're getting far too many points shooting a mammy with a ramjet when you aren't doing fuck all damage.
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That's how Renegade has always been, who would dare to go against Westwood wishs? 
And, if a player is shooting a tank with a ramjet, sniper, whatever, then he is a fucking n00b, aswell as being an useless bag of wank juice who should be doing something more productive like killing the enemys building instead of being a point whore.
[Updated on: Mon, 24 September 2007 08:19] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Public announcement: Points Bug Fix [message #286099 is a reply to message #286092] |
Mon, 24 September 2007 08:19 |
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Spoony
Messages: 3915
Registered: January 2006
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General (3 Stars)
Tactics & Strategies Moderator |
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| IronWarrior wrote on Mon, 24 September 2007 09:59 |
Well, first I've heard about it and it sounds total shite to be honest.
This sounds like ego boosting, e-penis crap bullshit aswell.
You should get points for shooting anything with whatever weapon or vehicle you are using.
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I don't follow you. For me to say you should get points based directly on the damage you're dishing out, rather than - for example - a ramjet or auto rifle getting the same points off a harvester as a flame tank gets off a building - is "total shite" and "ego boosting, e-penis crap bullshit"?
I see it as common sense, a vast improvement in game balance, and a closer game experience to what Westwood intended... each to our own, I suppose.
| Caveman wrote |
I took the advantage of this point bug on mesa when I was Nod. Since the GDI harvy doesn't stay very long like the Nod harvy, I would purposely buy a shotty throw my C4 just shoot at it to gain points so I could get a early tech/arty to defend against any early APC rushes.
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tip: in situations like the harv fight, forget how many points you're getting and just focus your attention on killing their harv and saving yours. If you genuinely help in the effort to kill their harvester (which DOESN'T mean throwing one c4 - it means rushing it three times with an engineer), chances are you'll kill theirs and save yours... that's 300 or 600 credit variance, depending on how you look at it mathematically.
The best thing about the points fix is new players aren't suckered into bad habits like the habit you've just described. Shooting heavy armour with weapons that don't damage it, just to get points and money, is a bad habit. You aren't helping your team's situation.
Unleash the Renerageâ„¢
Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
- noun
1. the inevitable criticism one receives after doing something awful
[Updated on: Mon, 24 September 2007 08:20] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Public announcement: Points Bug Fix [message #286100 is a reply to message #286097] |
Mon, 24 September 2007 08:22 |
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Spoony
Messages: 3915
Registered: January 2006
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General (3 Stars)
Tactics & Strategies Moderator |
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| IronWarrior wrote on Mon, 24 September 2007 10:16 |
That's how Renegade has always been, who would dare to go against Westwood wishs?
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You're right about one thing: the "I don't get it" emoticon.
Renegade with the points bug is not what Westwood wanted. Renegade with the points fix is what Westwood wanted.
| IronWarrior wrote on Mon, 24 September 2007 10:16 |
And, if a player is shooting a tank with a ramjet, sniper, whatever, then he is a fucking n00b, aswell as being an useless bag of wank juice who should be doing something more productive like killing the enemys building instead of being a point whore.
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Yes, he is, and he shouldn't affect the scores as conclusively as he did with the bugged points system.
Unleash the Renerageâ„¢
Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
- noun
1. the inevitable criticism one receives after doing something awful
[Updated on: Mon, 24 September 2007 08:22] Report message to a moderator |
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