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| Re: hope none of you are them [message #209527 is a reply to message #209517] |
Mon, 24 July 2006 09:14   |
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warranto
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Location: Alberta, Canada
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| mision08 wrote on Mon, 24 July 2006 09:18 |
The Bible is not a story written by Harry Potter. It is a compilation of books written by many people. Disciples of Jesus Christ, who "did a lot" for people 2000 years ago. Mathew, Mark, Luke and John The Baptist each wrote a book during their study under Jesus. I think the evidence of the life and trials of Jesus Christ are well documented.
If you believe in God or not, or believe that Jesus walked on water is one thing. The facts are that Jesus walked the Earth, followed by a flock of people who documented his life. These documents help to make up the Bible, a book of books.
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Just to support this idea:
The new testament is, in fact, a collection of biographies. What people did 2000 years ago.
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| Re: hope none of you are them [message #209556 is a reply to message #209524] |
Mon, 24 July 2006 12:34 |
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reborn
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Registered: September 2004
Location: uk - london
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| mrpirate wrote on Mon, 24 July 2006 11:58 |
| Reborn wrote on Mon, 24 July 2006 06:47 |
| mrpirate wrote on Sun, 23 July 2006 21:46 |
The statements "believe in no god" and "do not believe in god" seem to logically imply each other, to me. Further, theism is defined as the belief in a god or gods, so, naturally, atheism is not believing in a god or gods. I don't know why you think that atheism implies having no beliefs whatsoever.
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The fact that he believes no God exists means he is acting on faith.
If he simply "did not believe in any Gods", then it would of meant he had a lack of faith in the their existance.
The difference is subtle, but quite important. There is a big difference between positively believing that a thing does not exist, and simply lacking belief in it's existence.
Because I am saying he is acting on faith, I am saying he has a religion, he has positive belief in the non-existence of God. I am implying he is a theist at heart, not that atheism means having no beliefs.
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OK, dude. If you don't believe in a god, then it follows that you believe there is no god. I'm not sure how you don't see this. If I do not eat anything, then it follows that I eat nothing. Since no one will ever know if there's a god or not, ANY opinion you have on god(s) whatsoever amounts to faith. Finally, the existence of faith does not make a person a theist unless that faith is in a god.
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If I do not believe that Gods exist, then it doesn't mean I believe Gods do not exist, because that is an act of faith in Gods absence. You are wrong in saying they naturally follow.
The existance of faith in God exists, albeit a faith in his non-existance.
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| Re: hope none of you are them [message #209565 is a reply to message #207824] |
Mon, 24 July 2006 13:15 |
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warranto
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Registered: February 2003
Location: Alberta, Canada
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Ugh, inherent problems in the grammar of the English language (not your fault though).
In the way that the phrase "I do not believe that Gods exist" is being interpreted is both correct, it just depends on where the two ideas diverge.
"I do not believe - that Gods exist" has a different meaning that "I do not - believe that Gods exist. One is the act of believing that God does not exist (the first example, or mrpirate's interpretation), the other is the act of not even bothering to believe in the first place as no sort of belief is taking place (the second example, or Reborn's interpretation).
I think I have that right, but correct me if I'm wrong. It's a poor explanation, but the best I can come up with in the limited time I have to type this.
[Updated on: Mon, 24 July 2006 13:16] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: hope none of you are them [message #209587 is a reply to message #207824] |
Mon, 24 July 2006 14:06 |
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mrpirate
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Location: Ontario
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I think warranto may have found the problem.
There appear to me to be three possible categories for a person to fit here: belief in god, belief in no god, and ambiguity. Our argument seems to centre around where the statement "does not believe in god" places someone. Upon first inspection this statement seems to rule out only the first category. So you and I have then been arguing over whether or not it belongs in either "belief in no god," or "ambiguity." I assert that it cannot belong in the "ambiguity" category, since if one makes a statement saying they do not believe in god then clearly they are no longer ambiguous. Thus, according to me, if you don't believe in god, you also believe there is no god. Only if you're actually ambiguous can you be... ambiguous.
I was hoping that I would be able to get my point across well here, but in reviewing what I wrote I do not seem to have entirely succeeded. I suspect that you (Reborn) won't agree with my ruling out of the "ambiguity" category, and I also suspect that a good argument can be made from your side, so have at it.
[Updated on: Mon, 24 July 2006 14:07] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: hope none of you are them [message #209588 is a reply to message #207824] |
Mon, 24 July 2006 14:18 |
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jnz
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i do not oppose any religion in any way, i tolerate people and can be open minded when someone tells me their belifs
let me just tell my belives,
i belived their was a guy called Jesus and other people in the bible.
what i don't belive is true is the powers and supernateral stuff that is in the bible. allthough i do belive some stories.
eg: i cannot remember the full thing so here goes.
Moses sent 7 plagues, in protest to get the king to let the slaves go. the reason i belive this is because there are scientific reason these plagues could of happend.
i don't belive in heaven or hell.
i don't belive in goasts or spirits. however i do belive in a sort of soul. not the sort you are thinking.
i belive in the scientific *theory* of how the universe was created (big bang)
i also belive in the scientific theory on how the earth was created with living things on it.
im sorry about my spelling, i am not good at that. im the bestest at english.
also this will be my last reply in this thread as i don't want to make enemys. i did not mean any of my posts to affend anyone.
[Updated on: Mon, 24 July 2006 17:32] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: hope none of you are them [message #209596 is a reply to message #207824] |
Mon, 24 July 2006 15:36 |
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DarkKnight
Messages: 754
Registered: May 2006
Location: Cincinnati, OH
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Well I thought I’d throw my 2 cents in. As I posted before I am a Christian, I believe in God, Christ & the Holy Ghost. I believe in the Holly Trinity. I believe that Christ died on the cross for me and has forgiven me of my sins. I have absolutely no doubts in my beliefs. I believe this way to the very core of my soul that these things are the truth.
With that said I’m probably going to piss off more religious types than any other group with this post. I use religion loosely because not everyone who is religious believes in God. Sure they tell you they do; they go to church each week, sing the songs, listen to the preacher, pay their tithes or whatever they can spare, then they leave feeling they did their weekly duty of going to church. They said hi to their friends and associates at church that they see each week. Everyone knows “hey I went to church today” I did my weekly church visit. I’m doing what every good religious person does.
*Let me stand and give you a round of applause*
The other 6 and half days of the week you would never know you where a religious type. You know the worst group to give a tip in a restaurant is someone who goes to church and the worst day of the 7 is Sunday. Sorry gave at the church did my duty for the week. For two hours on Sunday you’re doing the religious walk, maybe more for you hardcore types. You cuss at others on the road, you drink, you lie, you do what you need to get by in this life just as long as those in your church peer group never see the real you. All is good in your world. Your convinced heaven is awaiting you because you do your duty of showing up once a week. Some of you show up twice a year, some just on Easter or Christmas. I bet most of you can’t even remember what the service was you attendant on Sunday were even about or the songs you sang.
On the news are death and destruction and killing in the name of God. Everywhere your turn there are people doing things in the name of God that is appalling. We were attacked on 9-11 in the name of God. The KKK marches on the streets in the name of God. Television fills our minds with story after story of blood shed in the name of God. All kinds of atrocities happen in this world because of religious zealots. Kids abused by religious types we are supposed to trust. You get my drift.
I am not your cookie cutter Christian. I don’t believe in order for my soul to be saved I have to put on a show for you and come to church each week. God loves you for you so stop being fake. Be throughout the week then same person when you’re in church. If you’re not the goody to shoes you pretend to be a church then knock it off. You want those who don’t believe in God to listen to anything you have to say, and then be yourself. Don’t go around trying to impress your friends and neighbors that you’re some kind of a saint when your really not.
And above all stop trying to ram scripture down someone’s throat. If you want to convince someone that there is a God your going about it all wrong. Telling them that if they don’t believe they are going to hell so you better believe is a sure way for them to tune you out next time you open your mouth. Got news for ya, if you only believe in God because your afraid of hell, get the asbestos suite ready because that’s where you’re headed. And stop with trying to beat someone upside the head with your Bible. You’re only giving them a headache and next time they see you they will just avoid another headache.
So now you have someone who doesn’t believe in God and you’re trying to convince them otherwise. Well with all the news about killing in the name of God, fake people doing their weekly duty, kids being raped, and on and on and on. What do you expect them to believe? Why would they believe?
In order to make them believe there is a God you need to make them see the failing of their own belief system and they have to want to seek the truth for them. It’s a personal decision, it’s not a group thing, and I don’t need to see a preacher or pray to any idols. It’s personal, pure and simple.
If I pissed any of your religious types off then maybe you needed to read this.
DK out.
P.S. sorry this was so long.
[Updated on: Mon, 24 July 2006 15:37] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: hope none of you are them [message #209686 is a reply to message #209675] |
Tue, 25 July 2006 08:02 |
KIRBY-098
Messages: 338
Registered: July 2006
Karma: 0
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Recruit |
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| Darkknight wrote on Tue, 25 July 2006 08:51 |
| KIRBY-098 wrote on Mon, 24 July 2006 19:45 |
sigh..........
Java, come back please.
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??? wow great comeback. your sighing which part. all of it, could you come up with a more intelligent response then just sigh....
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The supreme irony here is your rant about christians being hateful to each other.
Anyways:
You have regugitated the same thing that was posted about 14 times in this topic in an attempt make yourself look holier than thou. The debate here is about the authenticity of the bible. What you posted is a tangential rant out of left field.
So instead of adding to the debate in a positive way you have managed to not only inflame the debate in a negative way, but also alienated other believers.
This is oh so typical of believers who cannot defend the faith they espouse because they are so unfamiliar with how the basic tenets of the faith link to the prophecy and wisdom of the Old Testament.
I tire of circular logic from fellow believers when real people need real answers.
Seekers don't need mysticism based on ignorance whether intentional or unintentional. Especially when it ends in the usual circular logic.
It's ok to say, "I don't know.". What's not ok, is not looking for the answer.
Java has brought a real and valid question to sharp focus. That's where our focus in this topic should lie, because it's the root of everything else in this topic.
If the bible cannot be supported as real, then everything else is irrelevant.
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| Re: hope none of you are them [message #209692 is a reply to message #209688] |
Tue, 25 July 2006 09:04 |
KIRBY-098
Messages: 338
Registered: July 2006
Karma: 0
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Recruit |
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| warranto wrote on Tue, 25 July 2006 10:45 |
Becareful of what you mean by "real" though. While the old testament, at it's worst, is a collection of stories meant to guide us in the right direction, or simply to provide an antiquated explination of things that would prove "correct", but told in a way so the people of the time could better understand them.
That wouldn't make everything else false, despite the stories being untrue. The only false-ness about the whole thing is not the story themselves, but the understanding of them.
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What exactly do you find "untrue" or just a story? Jesus believed it was truth. I do too.
Specifics, please.
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| Re: hope none of you are them [message #209716 is a reply to message #209686] |
Tue, 25 July 2006 11:44 |
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DarkKnight
Messages: 754
Registered: May 2006
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Karma: 0
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Colonel |
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| KIRBY-098 wrote on Tue, 25 July 2006 10:02 |
| Darkknight wrote on Tue, 25 July 2006 08:51 |
| KIRBY-098 wrote on Mon, 24 July 2006 19:45 |
sigh..........
Java, come back please.
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??? wow great comeback. your sighing which part. all of it, could you come up with a more intelligent response then just sigh....
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The supreme irony here is your rant about christians being hateful to each other.
Anyways:
You have regugitated the same thing that was posted about 14 times in this topic in an attempt make yourself look holier than thou. The debate here is about the authenticity of the bible. What you posted is a tangential rant out of left field.
So instead of adding to the debate in a positive way you have managed to not only inflame the debate in a negative way, but also alienated other believers.
This is oh so typical of believers who cannot defend the faith they espouse because they are so unfamiliar with how the basic tenets of the faith link to the prophecy and wisdom of the Old Testament.
I tire of circular logic from fellow believers when real people need real answers.
Seekers don't need mysticism based on ignorance whether intentional or unintentional. Especially when it ends in the usual circular logic.
It's ok to say, "I don't know.". What's not ok, is not looking for the answer.
Java has brought a real and valid question to sharp focus. That's where our focus in this topic should lie, because it's the root of everything else in this topic.
If the bible cannot be supported as real, then everything else is irrelevant.
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thank you thats so much better than just saying , sigh ....
Maybe i should just leave my response as that. would be the same as just saying sigh... with no relevant information following.
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| Re: hope none of you are them [message #209853 is a reply to message #209824] |
Wed, 26 July 2006 11:08 |
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JohnDoe
Messages: 1416
Registered: May 2006
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General (1 Star) |
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| warranto wrote on Wed, 26 July 2006 10:13 |
Well, hey. If you think that Pink Unicorns created the universe, and we are wrong about our current interpretation of what God is, the more power to you.
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Sure, why not...makes me feel even better.
lol
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